Feminist Wanted!

Started by dr e, Mar 27, 2006, 05:30 PM

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Factory

Quote from: "lkanneg"
Quote from: "Dr Evil"
Would you like to debate Typhon Lisa?


On the specific subject mentioned?  I couldn't; I wouldn't characterize women as oppressed as an overall gender in the US of 2006.  Too strong a word.  Thank goodness.  :)  I'm more than happy to debate Typhonblue (if she wants) but it'd have to be on a different issue.


"Oppression" is THE raison d'etre for the Feminist movement to begin with.  Without "oppression" there is no feminism.  While it's wise to admit there is no such "oppression" in a place where dozens of people are salivating at the thought of being able to shove false statistic after false statistic back down the fetid feminist throat it came out of, it sort of kills off the first aspect...namely, that you are a feminist.

Or did yet another "new" form of feminism happen lately.  I do admit, women are scrambling so fast to distance themselves from the label of "feminist" while still spouting feminist rhetoric that it's difficult to keep track.

lkanneg

Quote from: "Factory"
Quote from: "lkanneg"
Quote from: "Dr Evil"
Would you like to debate Typhon Lisa?


On the specific subject mentioned?  I couldn't; I wouldn't characterize women as oppressed as an overall gender in the US of 2006.  Too strong a word.  Thank goodness.  :)  I'm more than happy to debate Typhonblue (if she wants) but it'd have to be on a different issue.


"Oppression" is THE raison d'etre for the Feminist movement to begin


Exactly.

Quote from: "Factory"
Without "oppression" there is no feminism.


"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." -Thomas Jefferson

And there are still a few legal quirks and bents, and multiple cultural de jure issues, to be sorted out along the way while keeping an eagle eye on the historically VERY new freedom and equality of women.  And women are still oppressed elsewhere in the world, tragically.

Quote from: "Factory"
it sort of kills off the first aspect...namely, that you are a feminist.


Aw, c'mon.  I admit to being a feminist on a regular basis...

Quote from: "Factory"
Or did yet another "new" form of feminism happen lately.  


I'm insufficiently trendy to be able to say.
quot;Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

"Something which we think is impossible now is not impossible in another decade."
-- Constance Baker Motley

"Don't compromise yourself. You are all you've got."
--Janis Joplin

Factory

Quote from: "lkanneg"
Quote from: "Factory"
Quote from: "lkanneg"
Quote from: "Dr Evil"
Would you like to debate Typhon Lisa?


On the specific subject mentioned?  I couldn't; I wouldn't characterize women as oppressed as an overall gender in the US of 2006.  Too strong a word.  Thank goodness.  :)  I'm more than happy to debate Typhonblue (if she wants) but it'd have to be on a different issue.


"Oppression" is THE raison d'etre for the Feminist movement to begin


Exactly.

Quote from: "Factory"
Without "oppression" there is no feminism.


"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." -Thomas Jefferson

And there are still a few legal quirks and bents, and multiple cultural de jure issues, to be sorted out along the way while keeping an eagle eye on the historically VERY new freedom and equality of women.  And women are still oppressed elsewhere in the world, tragically.

Quote from: "Factory"
it sort of kills off the first aspect...namely, that you are a feminist.


Aw, c'mon.  I admit to being a feminist on a regular basis...

Quote from: "Factory"
Or did yet another "new" form of feminism happen lately.  


I'm insufficiently trendy to be able to say.


That Thomas Jefferson....such a wise-ass.  Seriously, if you feel honestly that you should be protecting women's interests who am I to say otherwise?  The difference I have seen is that you don't whine that people here don't like you because you're a woman (OK, there ARE some woman-haters in here, but again - that's life), you know that people around here don't like you because you rarely address a direct question with a direct answer when you know your position is wrong, are about to be proven wrong, or a favourite aspect of women's privelege is threatened.  :)

But honestly...to be serious a second here...

I respect the fact that you have convictions, that you stand by them, and you debate with - rather than preach to - the people here.  Usually.  :)

Sir Jessy of Anti

Quote from: "lkanneg"
Quote from: "Factory"
Quote from: "lkanneg"
Quote from: "Dr Evil"
Would you like to debate Typhon Lisa?


On the specific subject mentioned?  I couldn't; I wouldn't characterize women as oppressed as an overall gender in the US of 2006.  Too strong a word.  Thank goodness.  :)  I'm more than happy to debate Typhonblue (if she wants) but it'd have to be on a different issue.


"Oppression" is THE raison d'etre for the Feminist movement to begin


Exactly.



Even I only a couple of times suspected that though you may be a complete liar, you are also intellectually dishonest to boot.

The original qoute was, "Oppression" is THE raison d'etre for the Feminist movement to begin with." i.e. denoting a common theme of victimization politics.
"The man who speaks to you of sacrifice, speaks of slaves and masters. And intends to be the master." -- Ayn Rand

" Police should be outnumbered and afraid of citizens in a free society. Anything else is merely a police state." - The Gonz

lkanneg

Quote from: "Sir Jessy of Anti"

Even I only a couple of times suspected that though you may be a complete liar, you are also intellectually dishonest to boot..


That's quite the personal attack, Sir Jessy.  Especially consdering that the person I was posting to had no trouble with my response to him.
quot;Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

"Something which we think is impossible now is not impossible in another decade."
-- Constance Baker Motley

"Don't compromise yourself. You are all you've got."
--Janis Joplin

hansside

I am glad to see there is consensus on whether women in the west are oppressed today.

But were they ever?

This, of course, depends on the definition of the concept oppression. Normally oppression is considered a Marxist term.

I think women have been systematically excluded from influence in the public sphere in the past, but oppression is something else.

Further, this is all very much an anthropocentric discussion. In many animals males are dominant over females ( or vice versa ) - do we call that oppression?

In fact you might argue that feminism is trying to oppress or suppress nature by forcing its highly abstract and artificial 50/50 distributions on a population, that is not 50/50 in its needs and abilities.

My idea of a solution is individualistic free distribution, where people make their choices according to needs and ability - not to fit into some ideal constructed by a social movement.

Seriously, try removing the state - all of it - and see things go to a more natural equilibrium.

Nobody is happy in a place that only serves the false ideals of a particular group, where people are not free to go their own way.

Factory

Quote from: "hansside"
I am glad to see there is consensus on whether women in the west are oppressed today.

But were they ever?



More to the point...who gives a fuck?

dr e

Quote from: "Factory"
Quote from: "hansside"
I am glad to see there is consensus on whether women in the west are oppressed today.

But were they ever?



More to the point...who gives a fuck?


I do.

This myth has been used to pummel us for decades.  The vast majority of people in the US if you were to ask them if women had been oppressed would nod their head and say, "Sure."  If you counter that and say you don't think that is so you are looked at like a nut and are immediately accused of being a woman hater.

We have got to put an end to this myth.  It is the foundation of the lies that have been repeated so often that they are now "common" knowledge.

This is important.
Contact dr e  Lifeboats for the ladies and children, icy waters for the men.  Women have rights and men have responsibilties.

Factory

Quote from: "Dr Evil"
Quote from: "Factory"
Quote from: "hansside"
I am glad to see there is consensus on whether women in the west are oppressed today.

But were they ever?



More to the point...who gives a fuck?


I do.

This myth has been used to pummel us for decades.  The vast majority of people in the US if you were to ask them if women had been oppressed would nod their head and say, "Sure."  If you counter that and say you don't think that is so you are looked at like a nut and are immediately accused of being a woman hater.

We have got to put an end to this myth.  It is the foundation of the lies that have been repeated so often that they are now "common" knowledge.

This is important.


True, but usually this sort of thing is a "given" in most conversations surrounding it.  I usually find it's better to just simply say "I don't give a rats ass WHAT happened to women 100 years ago since it has no bearing at all on today.  More to the point, do YOU (meaning the person I am debating) mean to tell me that you have so FEW problems that you have to fixate on whether or not women 100 years ago could fucking VOTE?  Are you serious?  

Then I'll ask them when men got the vote.  They never actually know.  Then I get to show them essentially that the entire basis for thier victim mentality is based on half-truths and misunderstood history.

If they keep arguing I walk away, since they have then shown themselves to be True Believers (tm), and nothing I can say will take the "victim" mantle away.

gwallan

Quote from: "Factory"
...based on half-truths and misunderstood history.


Not "misunderstood". Deliberately misrepresented.
In 95% of things 100% of people are alike. It's the other 5%, the bits that are different, that make us interesting. It's also the key to our existence, and future, as a species.

Factory

Quote from: "gwallan"
Quote from: "Factory"
...based on half-truths and misunderstood history.


Not "misunderstood". Deliberately misrepresented.


I disagree.  Most of the women that I've talked to about this sort of thing genuinely DON'T know history as it's recorded...only the women's studies versions.

Which is why I heartily disagree with the existance of this "course".  Teaching lies as "herstory" runs counter to the stated aims of higher education.

dr e

I searched an intro to women's studies book on amazon for the word "oppressed" and it gave me a listing of the 25 times within that book that the word oppressed is used along tith the surrounding text.  Very interesting stuff.  You too can have fun unearthing the lies of women's studies.  Maybe we should have a thread to paste in the biggest lies we find by going here:  

 Link to wome's studies book on amazon.  

So Lisa, what do you have to say about all of these references to oppression in these texts?  Is this feminism?  Do you believe this?  


Women's Realities, Women's Choices : An Introduction to Women's Studies (Hunter College Women's Studies Collective)
by Hunter College Women's Studies Collective
   

25 pages with references to oppressed in the Paperback edition (1995):

1.    on Page 30:
"... fear of women in social conditions (Ember, 1978). Some conclude that fear of women is greatest where women are most oppressed. Expressed fear of women may or may not be universal; it is certainly variable in its manifestation. Venerated Madonnas While ..."

2.    on Page 37:
"... color. Such an omission can never be benign, as Patricia Hill Collins notes, since suppressing the knowledge produced by any oppressed group makes it easier for dominant groups to rule because the seeming absence of an independent consciousness in the oppressed ..."

3.    on Page 76:
"... possible. But socialist feminists also recognize that traditional socialism has failed to understand the specific ways in which women are oppressed as women and not merely as workers (Gould, 1976; Sargent, 1981; Jaggar, 1983). Socialist feminists emphasize that the traditional gender ..."

4.    on Page 78:
"... women, for example, all have some interests in common with the men of our groups because we have also been oppressed as a group. Some feminists consider themselves radical because they see the overthrow of gender domination as the most fundamental ..."

5.    on Page 151:
"... and community held by a cultural and ethnic group are imposed upon one's attitudes and responses to lesbianism. For racially oppressed groups, lesbianism may seem like a betrayal of our ethnic community. Among African Americans and Native Americans, for example, reproductive ..."

6.    on Page 176:
"... do not conform to the historical experience of many within the dominant group but also exclude absolutely the realities of oppressed women who are exploited by the power of the dominant group. This has never been expressed more clearly than in ..."

7.    on Page 180:
"... racial, ethnic, and class stereotypes, those that apply to gender promote subordination . Women may be in triple jeopardy, being oppressed on the basis of gender, race or ethnicity, and class. As a result of being discriminated against and excluded because ..."

8.    on Page 181:
"... describes these social relations , and reflects the image of reality held by the dominant group in society. Women in oppressed groups, whose sense of ourselves and the dominant group may differ radically from the stereotyped versions offered by the dominant ..."

9.    on Page 182:
"... to the resources by which to shape what we can do and how. Individuals and groups in subordinated positions are oppressed by the force of the dominant culture, and in the end, this process places real limits on self-realization. As women ..."

10.    on Page 184:
"... others form a base of power that The Psychology of Racism in White Feminists The fact is, white wimmin are oppressed; they have been "colonized" by white boys, just as third world people have. Even when white wimmin "belonged" to white ..."

11.      on Page 193:
"... order that promotes the relationship. Resistance, like the Black Power movement of the 1960s, fought back against the negative stereotypes. Oppressed groups find it difficult to express their own versions of themselves, however; they are "muted" by the dominant discourse. Women, ..."

12.    on Page 195:
"... constrain access to resources? How does gender factor into these identities? 4. If society teaches negative stereotypes to members of oppressed groups, how can members of such groups support each other and recapture self-esteem? 5. What specific projects in your area, ..."

13.    on Page 250:
"... almost never enough to pay the actual costs. From the figures given above, it is clear that the most economically oppressed ethnic groups in this country are those experiencing the most severe negative economic effects of divorce. However, economic setbacks may ..."

14.    on Page 306:
"... women of Ladyland in that there is no trade conducted with other countries if the women in those countries are oppressed . Other utopias we consider challenge the institution of marriage and the practices of childrearing; in both cases, the solution ..."

15.    on Page 326:
"... ascribed to groups of people by virtue of race, religion, ethnic origin, or gender, it has been difficult for the oppressed group to gain sufficient power to alter the status quo. This pat- 326 ..."

16.    on Page 331:
"... of behavior. But in simple societies, and often in new religions or the religions of the very poor and the oppressed, these specialists are like ordinary people in most other ways. Women or men, they have to do what others do ..."

17.    on Page 366:
"... children to read and write? Why should the dominant group in any society fear education in the hands of an oppressed subgroup? Does literacy bring power? UNESCO defines literacy as "the ability to read and write a sentence in daily life" ..."

18.    on Page 440:
"... care of all the "dirty work," unless there are lowlier aides and orderlies to assume these tasks. That nurses are oppressed may be less obvious, but equally true. Nurses are treated as inferiors by physicians, often addressed by first names by ..."

19.    on Page 453:
"... in the Later Years, edited by Lois Grau and Ida Susser. New York: Harrington Park Press, 1989,105-19. Roberts, Susan Jo. "Oppressed Group Behavior: Implications for Nursing." Advances in Nursing Science (July 1983):21-30. Rodin, Judith, and Ickovics, Jeannette. "Women's Health: Review and ..."

20.    on Page 543:
"... power structure and its victims and have acted on behalf of children, the poor, workers, and other groups of people oppressed by the system. Economically advantaged women have assisted women from different social classes, and women in all social classes have ..."


21.      on Page 552:
"... to such rhetoric as the liberation ethic, which holds that men as well as women have deplorable lives and are oppressed by the present structure. Thus the system must be transformed to provide humane lives for all (Freeman, 1976). Some feminists ..."

22.    on Page 558:
"... discipline of feminism. They enable students to become aware of what women have accomplished and of how we have been oppressed. Once we become conscious of the issues feminists are raising, the world may never appear the same as it did ..."

23.    from Front Matter:
"... are working to replace ignorance and fantasy with views that have greater validity. Realizing that discriminatory laws and customs have oppressed women, that this oppression is disgraceful and harmful to all human beings, and that we can through our persistent and ..."

24.    from Front Matter:
"... it difficult to arrive at a consensus. Those of us who were brought up as or find ourselves members of oppressed groups may find it particularly difficult to see what we have in common with those whom we have learned to ..."

25.    from Front Matter:
"... of our gender who have suffered other types of oppression. And those of us who have been part of groups oppressed for reasons other than gender may have to face the fact that sexism exists in our own group. Fighting discrimination ..."
Contact dr e  Lifeboats for the ladies and children, icy waters for the men.  Women have rights and men have responsibilties.

lkanneg

Quote from: "Dr Evil"

So Lisa, what do you have to say about all of these references to oppression in these texts?  Is this feminism?  Do you believe this?  


Hi Dr. E,  

I'm not totally sure what you're asking me to do here.  Do you want my opinion on each of the partial sentence exerpts you gave, outside of their context (since context is not provided)?
quot;Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

"Something which we think is impossible now is not impossible in another decade."
-- Constance Baker Motley

"Don't compromise yourself. You are all you've got."
--Janis Joplin

dr e

I was curious about your reaction to the multiple references to oppression in an intro to women's studies book.  This is obviously common practice for this sort of book.  You have basically said you don't think women are oppressed and that seems to run counter to what the women's studies people seem to think.  I'd be curious to hear whatever comment you might have.
Contact dr e  Lifeboats for the ladies and children, icy waters for the men.  Women have rights and men have responsibilties.

lkanneg

Quote from: "Dr Evil"
I was curious about your reaction to the multiple references to oppression in an intro to women's studies book.  This is obviously common practice for this sort of book.  You have basically said you don't think women are oppressed and that seems to run counter to what the women's studies people seem to think.  I'd be curious to hear whatever comment you might have.


Well, I'm not much of an expert on women's studies...I took one class in college that was a HIST/WMST class but it wasn't really about feminism or gender oppression; it was about notable American women from 1900-1950 and it only discussed feminism if the woman being studied at the moment was part of the feminist movement, and then only in the context of what she did regarding it.  No philosophical/political general discussions of feminism, gender-based oppression, etc.  I'd actually have to read a women's studies book, really more than one, several, to compare my opinions about gender oppression with the "mainstream" women's studies opinions.  The best I could do here right now is look at the sentence exerpts and give my comparing/contrasting opinion of what they seem to be saying as standalones and what I think.  If you'd like me to do that, I could give it a shot.  Unfortunately, I don't have any women's studies books on my reading list at the moment.  (I'm really more of a SF/Fantasy reader.  ;) )
quot;Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

"Something which we think is impossible now is not impossible in another decade."
-- Constance Baker Motley

"Don't compromise yourself. You are all you've got."
--Janis Joplin

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