Stand Your Ground

Stand Your Ground Forums => Main => Topic started by: on Dec 31, 1969, 05:00 PM

Poll
Question: Is "Who Me" a troll who is not truly debating?
Option 1: Yes, she's a troll.  Ban her! votes: 2
Option 2: Yes, she's a troll.  Refute her. votes: 9
Option 3: Yes, she's a troll.  Ignore her. votes: 4
Option 4: She's a thoughtful and fair debater. votes: 5
Title: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: . on Jul 06, 2007, 09:32 AM
Here's a study that just appeared in the Journal of Family Violence:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/x7654m79327161g2/

Published online: 5 July 2007

Abstract:
Using data on a nationally representative cohort of pregnant women in US cities, this study examines the prevalence and correlates of interpersonal violence (IPV) -- physical, emotional, and coercion-control -- during pregnancy and 1 year after birth. Overall, 33% of mothers and 40% of fathers experience some form of IPV during or after pregnancy. Hispanic women and those no longer romantically involved with their children's fathers were most likely to experience IPV during pregnancy. Less educated women, women who reported that they or their spouses used substances (i.e., alcohol or illicit drugs), and women who reported that their pregnancy was unwanted were at high risk of IPV both during and after their pregnancy. Violence during pregnancy strongly predicted violence after pregnancy. Recent immigrants were among the least likely to leave a violent relationship 1-year post-partum. US-born women who were employed during their pregnancy were among the most likely to leave an abusive relationship 1-year post-partum.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Virtue on Jul 06, 2007, 02:28 PM
So men get abused more but the focus is on women.....nuff said
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Mr. X on Jul 07, 2007, 04:14 PM
Yeah where are the stats about the bigger group of abused people... men? Oh wait, men have to take the abuse cause the mother is already suffering.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 08, 2007, 08:19 AM
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=20316

How about the difference in the result of the abuse?

Are men more likely to die than women?

Or do you guys prefer to overlook the leading cause of death in pregnant women?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: TheManOnTheStreet on Jul 08, 2007, 09:31 AM
What's that smell?  Oh damn....  Troll alert!

TMOTS
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: TheManOnTheStreet on Jul 08, 2007, 09:39 AM

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=20316

How about the difference in the result of the abuse?

Are men more likely to die than women?

Or do you guys prefer to overlook the leading cause of death in pregnant women?


... and by the way trollie... the VERY FIRST SENTENCE of YOUR citation: 

"Homicide is the second most common cause of injury-related death among pregnant women and new mothers, according to a... CDC study released on Tuesday and published in the March issue of the American Journal of Public Health, the Washington Post reports."

Two points to make.  One, I don't believe this junk science for one minute.  and two; nice how you cited it, but twisted the words a tad so it fit your point.  Just where exactly does it say "THE LEADING CAUSE OF DEATH"??

OK, one more.... the link is to an article (slanted I would guess) "about" the study and not even the study itself!

Gotstah do better than that trollie!

TMOTS
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 08, 2007, 11:40 AM
You are right.  It is only the second most common reason for injury related death.  I mistated.

If you read the article and yeah of course the CDC is slanted :rolle:  You would notice it contains several links.  I think the first of which is the study.

And yeah you will probably be very disappointed to see that it was done and published by the American Journal of Public Health.  Are you seriously going to claim some kind of weird conspiracy?  Or do you just prefer to pretend it means nothing?

In your own words:

Gotstah do better than that trollie!



Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Garak on Jul 08, 2007, 11:46 AM

You are right.  It is only the second most common reason for injury related death.  I mistated.

If you read the article and yeah of course the CDC is slanted :rolle:  You would notice it contains several links.  I think the first of which is the study.

And yeah you will probably be very disappointed to see that it was done and published by the American Journal of Public Health.  Are you seriously going to claim some kind of weird conspiracy?  Or do you just prefer to pretend it means nothing?

In your own words:

Gotstah do better than that trollie!






So abuse is ok as long as you don't die? Well, that should kill the DV industry shouldn't it.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 08, 2007, 12:00 PM


You are right.  It is only the second most common reason for injury related death.  I mistated.

If you read the article and yeah of course the CDC is slanted :rolle:  You would notice it contains several links.  I think the first of which is the study.

And yeah you will probably be very disappointed to see that it was done and published by the American Journal of Public Health.  Are you seriously going to claim some kind of weird conspiracy?  Or do you just prefer to pretend it means nothing?

In your own words:

Gotstah do better than that trollie!






So abuse is ok as long as you don't die? Well, that should kill the DV industry shouldn't it.


Did anyone say that?

But you seem to want to ignore that abuse goes in both directions.  How often do you read an article about a husband that died as a result of abuse from a female spouse?

What are the stats on that?

But you are content to ignore the fact that women die as a result of abuse from a male spouse?

What are the stats on men that died as a result of violence done to them by other men last year?  Take that number and compare it to the stats of men that died as a result of spousal abuse from a female.

Which number is larger?  Is one more important than the other because of the gender of the abuser?

Violence is a problem that is suffered by both genders.  Do you feel it is tolerable, even excusable if it happens to a female?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 08, 2007, 12:16 PM
all BS to the side, most men on some level do feel like that because we are tired of always seeing femazle violence excused
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 08, 2007, 12:27 PM

all BS to the side, most men on some level do feel like that because we are tired of always seeing femazle violence excused


I agree that it is ignored by the courts.  The only way to defeat that is to press the charges and shove to see they are considered on an equal footing by the court. 

Ignoring the obvious doesn't mean the you are making progress.  It just shows an ability to deny basic fact.

To excuse violence to anyone is really stupid. 

I read much more than I post here.  Something that I've noticed are the excuses...oh the bitch probably....fill in the blank...she was asking for it.

What does that acheive?  I'll tell what it acheives, it keeps your cause pushed to the back and ignored.

Equality is not acheived by stepping up on the body of another.  Equality is supposed to mean equal not superior or more important.

You shouldn't excuse violence against women any more than you tolerate women excusing violence against men.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: . on Jul 08, 2007, 12:33 PM

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=20316

How about the difference in the result of the abuse?

Are men more likely to die than women?

Or do you guys prefer to overlook the leading cause of death in pregnant women?


The notion that pregnancy is a time when women are vulnerable to homicide was promoted in a series by the Washington Post a couple years back.  Then it was refuted, in Slate magazine:
http://www.slate.com/Default.aspx?id=2111390
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 08, 2007, 01:07 PM


http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=20316

How about the difference in the result of the abuse?

Are men more likely to die than women?

Or do you guys prefer to overlook the leading cause of death in pregnant women?


The notion that pregnancy is a time when women are vulnerable to homicide was promoted in a series by the Washington Post a couple years back.  Then it was refuted, in Slate magazine:
http://www.slate.com/Default.aspx?id=2111390



That wasn't an article from the Washington Post. 

That link goes to the CDC website.  The study was done by the American Journal of Public Health.

Slate?  Give me a break please... :laughing6:
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: dr e on Jul 08, 2007, 01:25 PM
 You can see from the stats below (easier to see them on the link) that men comprise over 76% of the murder victims in the US.  Deaths within a family men still are more likely to be murdered 51% -  48%.  Importantly look at the perpetrators of intimate homicides where women are 34.7% of the perps and  family homicides and notice that it is 29.4% female.  They also are twice as likely to murder their children (mothers only 31%) than fathers only (14%).  Women are far from exempt from responsibility when it comes to murder.  Do men murder more often?  Yes.  ARe they the only culprits?  No.  If we are going to have movements for men stopping male violence then it is time for us to see some movement of women stopping female violence.  Why don't we hear about that?  LOL!

The pregnancy question is a bit different and I hope I can find time to post a little on that one.  Right now I am swamped with the conference.

E

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/gender.htm

Homicide Type by Gender, 1976-2004
                                Victims         Offenders
                               Male    Female         Male    Female
  All homicides    76.5%       23.5%         88.7%    11.3%
Victim/offender relationship                        
           Intimate     36.5%    63.5%              65.3%    34.7%
            Family    51.7%    48.3%         70.6%    29.4%
       Infanticide    54.5%    45.5%         61.8%    38.2%
           Eldercide    58.3%    41.7%         85.3%    14.7%
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: dr e on Jul 08, 2007, 01:31 PM

Read what a feminist says about this fear bellows:

http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2004/1229.html
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 08, 2007, 01:47 PM

You can see from the stats below (easier to see them on the link) that men comprise over 76% of the murder victims in the US.  Deaths within a family men still are more likely to be murdered 51% -  48%.  Importantly look at the perpetrators of intimate homicides where women are 34.7% of the perps and  family homicides and notice that it is 29.4% female.  They also are twice as likely to murder their children (mothers only 31%) than fathers only (14%).  Women are far from exempt from responsibility when it comes to murder.  Do men murder more often?  Yes.  ARe they the only culprits?  No.  If we are going to have movements for men stopping male violence then it is time for us to see some movement of women stopping female violence.  Why don't we hear about that?  LOL!

The pregnancy question is a bit different and I hope I can find time to post a little on that one.  Right now I am swamped with the conference.

E

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/gender.htm

Homicide Type by Gender, 1976-2004
                                Victims         Offenders
                               Male    Female         Male    Female
  All homicides    76.5%       23.5%         88.7%    11.3%
Victim/offender relationship                        
           Intimate     36.5%    63.5%              65.3%    34.7%
            Family    51.7%    48.3%         70.6%    29.4%
       Infanticide    54.5%    45.5%         61.8%    38.2%
           Eldercide    58.3%    41.7%         85.3%    14.7%



I agree that there needs to be a concerted movement to stop all violence.  Not just violence against men or violence against women.  Many ignore the stats you have linked.  Even you bring up the 34.7% violent crimes by women and hold that up.  But it appears you are ignoring the 75.3% that is left over.

From your link:

Quote
Most victims and perpetrators in homicides are male
     Male offender/Male victim 65.2%
  Male offender/Female victim 22.6%
  Female offender/Male victim 9.7%
  Female offender/Female victim  2.4%


So you are going to rant about female perpetrating 9.7% of the violent acts against men and ignore the first set of numbers here?

How about the figure for male on female violence.  It's more than doubles the number of female on male violent attacks.

Are you going to ignore that too?

You are sounding allot like what you are complaining about.  But isn't that exactly what you are doing?



Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: dr e on Jul 08, 2007, 02:10 PM
I think you need to take a deep breath and relax a little bit.  No one is ignoring anything.  How do you come to the conclusion that anyone here is ignoring anything?  This is deception and misdirection.  Maybe you can tell us just how you came to the conclusion that I am ignoring anything?  Let's hear it.






You can see from the stats below (easier to see them on the link) that men comprise over 76% of the murder victims in the US.  Deaths within a family men still are more likely to be murdered 51% -  48%.  Importantly look at the perpetrators of intimate homicides where women are 34.7% of the perps and  family homicides and notice that it is 29.4% female.  They also are twice as likely to murder their children (mothers only 31%) than fathers only (14%).  Women are far from exempt from responsibility when it comes to murder.  Do men murder more often?  Yes.  ARe they the only culprits?  No.  If we are going to have movements for men stopping male violence then it is time for us to see some movement of women stopping female violence.  Why don't we hear about that?  LOL!

The pregnancy question is a bit different and I hope I can find time to post a little on that one.  Right now I am swamped with the conference.

E

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/gender.htm

Homicide Type by Gender, 1976-2004
                                Victims         Offenders
                               Male    Female         Male    Female
  All homicides    76.5%       23.5%         88.7%    11.3%
Victim/offender relationship                        
           Intimate     36.5%    63.5%              65.3%    34.7%
            Family    51.7%    48.3%         70.6%    29.4%
       Infanticide    54.5%    45.5%         61.8%    38.2%
           Eldercide    58.3%    41.7%         85.3%    14.7%



I agree that there needs to be a concerted movement to stop all violence.  Not just violence against men or violence against women.  Many ignore the stats you have linked.  Even you bring up the 34.7% violent crimes by women and hold that up.  But it appears you are ignoring the 75.3% that is left over.

From your link:

Quote
Most victims and perpetrators in homicides are male
     Male offender/Male victim 65.2%
  Male offender/Female victim 22.6%
  Female offender/Male victim 9.7%
  Female offender/Female victim  2.4%


So you are going to rant about female perpetrating 9.7% of the violent acts against men and ignore the first set of numbers here?

How about the figure for male on female violence.  It's more than doubles the number of female on male violent attacks.

Are you going to ignore that too?

You are sounding allot like what you are complaining about.  But isn't that exactly what you are doing?




Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 08, 2007, 03:57 PM
I'm going to say something straight out:

If you are a 130 pound woman who jumps up and smacks a 260 pound man, and he breaks your jaw (Or any other injury which does not result in a permanent maiming) for hitting him first...

You got what you deserved, and should go to jail for assault, and he should stay out on the grounds of self defense.

And you're a stupid bitch too, for "having your mouth write checks your ass can't cash."

That's some radical equality.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Mr. X on Jul 08, 2007, 04:22 PM

I'm going to say something straight out:

If you are a 130 pound woman who jumps up and smacks a 260 pound man, and he breaks your jaw (Or any other injury which does not result in a permanent maiming) for hitting him first...

You got what you deserved, and should go to jail for assault, and he should stay out on the grounds of self defense.

And you're a stupid bitch too, for "having your mouth write checks your ass can't cash."

That's some radical equality.


So what if a kid hit a 260 lb guy and he broke the kids face? Do you believe in proportionality? Should a store owner shoot a little kid for stealing a pcak of gum? Did the girl in your example break the guy's jaw? She's wrong for hitting but why does the result have to be a broken jaw? If I push a gun owner is the result to be shot to death?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: . on Jul 08, 2007, 05:26 PM


I'm going to say something straight out:

If you are a 130 pound woman who jumps up and smacks a 260 pound man, and he breaks your jaw (Or any other injury which does not result in a permanent maiming) for hitting him first...

You got what you deserved, and should go to jail for assault, and he should stay out on the grounds of self defense.

And you're a stupid bitch too, for "having your mouth write checks your ass can't cash."

That's some radical equality.


So what if a kid hit a 260 lb guy and he broke the kids face? Do you believe in proportionality? Should a store owner shoot a little kid for stealing a pcak of gum? Did the girl in your example break the guy's jaw? She's wrong for hitting but why does the result have to be a broken jaw? If I push a gun owner is the result to be shot to death?

I think Gonzo was referring to adults, and also to situations that did not result in permanent injury (death would be included in that).
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 08, 2007, 06:15 PM

I think you need to take a deep breath and relax a little bit.  No one is ignoring anything.  How do you come to the conclusion that anyone here is ignoring anything?  This is deception and misdirection.  Maybe you can tell us just how you came to the conclusion that I am ignoring anything?  Let's hear it.


I was using the term you very generally.  I'm speaking more to posts I've read on this message board than I am your statement in particular.

I'm not trying to deceive or misdirect anything.  I'm trying to discuss a very serious issue.  Domestic violence is a big deal.

But as long as the men's rights movement focuses only on abuse perpetrated on men by women; well they are ignoring the bulk of the problem.  Look at the figures you linked for example.   62.5% of attacks on men are perpetrated by men.  But instead of trying to deal with that the focus is the 9.7% that are perpetrated by women.  Now take a look at the figures for attacks on women perpetuated by men.  Do you not see the radical difference in the figures?

It seems there is a somewhat of a consensus that since murder is the second leading cause of injury based death in pregnant women, they should be grateful it isn't the number 1 cause.  There have even been excuses made in this thread for the action.  Take a look at Gonzo's comment or the one made by TPTM and you will see what I mean.

I've read threads on this board where comments were made that she probably deserved it.  Treating him like an ATM and statements like that.  Statements that are made not from direct knowledge but based on nothing more than it was a female victim and a male attacker.

It just seems that with so many cheering when a woman is beaten or killed while blaming her for the abuse it's impossible to expect someone to take the issue of the 9.7% of physical attacks by women on men seriously. 

If you guys want to get a movement going and have people take it seriously, you are going to have to learn to show some compassion for what makes up 1/2 of the population. 

So many on this board complain about women doing certain things and then turn right around and do the exact thing they are complaining about.

It comes off as childish, irresponsible, and vindictive all at once.  Surely that is not the message you want to send, no?

And uh, I am relaxed.  Do not assume just because someone disagrees with you that they are hysterical.  The assumption for one thing is wrong and for another does nothing for the debate. 



Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: gwallan on Jul 08, 2007, 06:43 PM
Some reading
Equal Justice Foundation (http://www.ejfi.org/DV/dv-2.htm)
Only Women Are Offered An Alternative To Domestic Violence (http://www.angryharry.com/esOnlyWomenAreOfferedAnAlternative.htm) by Angry Harry who makes a very valid argument that the feminist inspired approach to interpersonal violence helps men more than women.

Until we stop denying the mutual dynamics involved in abuse no solutions will be forthcoming.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: dr e on Jul 08, 2007, 06:54 PM

I think the listening part of you has been severely drugged with novacaine.  It ain't workin.  If we are going to discuss things then you need to listen to what others are saying.  At this point you are simply assuming what people here are thinking and the assumptions seem to be contained in a narrow-minded ideological view of the world that is usually the result of longterm brainwashing.  It looks grim for a good dialogue.

Here are some suggestions:

1.  Cease judging others based on your assumptions.
2.  Ask more questions and listen to what is said in response.
3.  State your point of view and listen to what others may say in response.

I think I speak for most of the folks here to say that we all have a concern about violence in general, no matter who is the victim.  What we see beyond that general concern is that we are spending a billion dollars a year to help women who are victims of violence but are spending ZERO dollars a year to help our men.  This even though men are obviously and overwhelmingly outnumber women in terms of being victims of violence.  Now just what might be going on here?  Why do we show more love and compassion for our women than we do for our men? 




I think you need to take a deep breath and relax a little bit.  No one is ignoring anything.  How do you come to the conclusion that anyone here is ignoring anything?  This is deception and misdirection.  Maybe you can tell us just how you came to the conclusion that I am ignoring anything?  Let's hear it.


I was using the term you very generally.  I'm speaking more to posts I've read on this message board than I am your statement in particular.

I'm not trying to deceive or misdirect anything.  I'm trying to discuss a very serious issue.  Domestic violence is a big deal.

But as long as the men's rights movement focuses only on abuse perpetrated on men by women; well they are ignoring the bulk of the problem.  Look at the figures you linked for example.   62.5% of attacks on men are perpetrated by men.  But instead of trying to deal with that the focus is the 9.7% that are perpetrated by women.  Now take a look at the figures for attacks on women perpetuated by men.  Do you not see the radical difference in the figures?

It seems there is a somewhat of a consensus that since murder is the second leading cause of injury based death in pregnant women, they should be grateful it isn't the number 1 cause.  There have even been excuses made in this thread for the action.  Take a look at Gonzo's comment or the one made by TPTM and you will see what I mean.

I've read threads on this board where comments were made that she probably deserved it.  Treating him like an ATM and statements like that.  Statements that are made not from direct knowledge but based on nothing more than it was a female victim and a male attacker.

It just seems that with so many cheering when a woman is beaten or killed while blaming her for the abuse it's impossible to expect someone to take the issue of the 9.7% of physical attacks by women on men seriously. 

If you guys want to get a movement going and have people take it seriously, you are going to have to learn to show some compassion for what makes up 1/2 of the population. 

So many on this board complain about women doing certain things and then turn right around and do the exact thing they are complaining about.

It comes off as childish, irresponsible, and vindictive all at once.  Surely that is not the message you want to send, no?

And uh, I am relaxed.  Do not assume just because someone disagrees with you that they are hysterical.  The assumption for one thing is wrong and for another does nothing for the debate. 




Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 08, 2007, 07:13 PM
Quote
Domestic violence is a big deal.


The hypocrisy you've been posting makes me want to puke.  The entire domestic violence industry is nothing more than a gender feminist run, Nazi style hate movement, intent on committing hate crimes against men in the name of domestic violence law.  All the numbers are very skewed in favor of women by all the hate monger bigots running the d.v. industry and committing hate crimes against men using domestic violence laws to accomplish their evil ends.  

I refer to police, prosecutors and judges as the unholy trinity, inasmuch as they've all been trained to commit their misandrist deviltry by STOP grants funded through VAWA.  If you are so concerned about domestic violence and violence in general why don't you start with all the corrupt, hate monger bigots running the d.v. industry and destroying good mens lives based on the gender feminist, misandrist ideology.

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/DVAwarenessMonth/TheresNoExcuseForDVExcept1.jpg)

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/DVAwarenessMonth/PA090099a.jpg)

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/DVAwarenessMonth/PA100002a.jpg)

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/DVAwarenessMonth/PA130033a.jpg)

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/DVAwarenessMonth/PA160033a.jpg)

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/DVAwarenessMonth/PC170001a.jpg)

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/DVAwarenessMonth/PA080037a-1.jpg)

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/DVAwarenessMonth/PA310011a.jpg)

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/DVAwarenessMonth/PA270003a.jpg)




Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Mr. X on Jul 08, 2007, 07:26 PM
Quote
If you guys want to get a movement going and have people take it seriously, you are going to have to learn to show some compassion for what makes up 1/2 of the population. 

Tell that to yourself. If women want to be taken seriously they are going to have to learn to show some compassion for what makes up 1/2 of the population.

BTW 100% of all dog bites are committed by dogs. If your dog was bitten severly by another dog would you ignore it and just blame dogs cause its a crime of dog on dog? Your dog bleeds to death cause it was the victim of another dog so "that's their problem".

BTW 60% of all child abuse is caused by mothers. Do we ignore all other circumstance that revolve around that and just say its a crime of women on children? 100% of all abortions are committed by women so we should ignore when little baby girls are aborted cause that's a crime of girl on girl? For example, according to your logic, we should not help chinese fetus girls cause mothers are aborting them faster than aborting baby boys?

All murder is committed by humans so we should ignore the victims of murder cause its a crime of human on human?

Quote
It seems there is a somewhat of a consensus that since murder is the second leading cause of injury based death in pregnant women, they should be grateful it isn't the number 1 cause.  There have even been excuses made in this thread for the action.  Take a look at Gonzo's comment or the one made by TPTM and you will see what I mean.


Yes if you take a stat blindly you misread a stat. Perhaps what this says is that pregnant women are so safe in our society that the second leading cause of death for them is some obscure event like murder. What if the leading cause of death was lightning strikes? Wouldn't that tell you that pregnant women are so protected and sheltered that it takes a fluke like lightning to cause their deaths? if you are going to tout this line you have to look at the real numbers. If one woman per 1 million dies of murder is that a significant amount?

What would be a more concerning number is the much more vast number of men who die on the job which is 5 times more than women AND the majority of people murdered are men. You seem concerned about pregnant women yet unconcerned about the much larger numbers of men murdered and dying.

Want us men to help women? Then women have to help men as well. The one way street ends. No compassion for men means no compassion for women. I am done trying to earn angel wings and I find no woman is worth selling out my fellow man. Why shouldn't I act like women... caring about myself first. Want us men to care? Then they should care about us as much as we care about women.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 08, 2007, 07:45 PM


I'm going to say something straight out:

If you are a 130 pound woman who jumps up and smacks a 260 pound man, and he breaks your jaw (Or any other injury which does not result in a permanent maiming) for hitting him first...

You got what you deserved, and should go to jail for assault, and he should stay out on the grounds of self defense.

And you're a stupid bitch too, for "having your mouth write checks your ass can't cash."

That's some radical equality.


So what if a kid hit a 260 lb guy and he broke the kids face?


"kid?"

You mean a 75 pound 7 year old, or a 300 pound 17 year old who plays lineman for his high school team and has already accepted a football scholarship to Notre Dame?

In any event - apples and oranges.  Child:  Immature person who is not grown up enough to subscribe to the social contract, and historically and traditionally protected from harm by adults in all but the most egregious circumstances.  Woman:  Adult human, and full free agent and participant in adult interaction.

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Do you believe in proportionality?


Not necessarily.

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Should a store owner shoot a little kid for stealing a pcak of gum?


Regardless of the heartstring pulling "little kid" and "pack of gum," when all things are erased, you have a merchant and property owner protecting his property from a thief.

Death over "things?"  In general, excepting burglary in a private residence, I'm not for it.  But the kid should not expect his youth to be a protection for him from being chased down, tackled, cuffed, and given the frog march.

And if he winds up scuffed up from it - what he gets.  Might make for quite a few less little thieves.

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Did the girl in your example break the guy's jaw?


No.  At what point when someone assaults someone do we justify retaliation?

There's that "chivalry" reflex that allows women to whale on a man and then whine "You big meany! That didn't hurt you!"  Maybe not.  But it's still assault, and still merits being hit back.  A 5'4" and 130 pound woman most certainly *could* break your jaw.  Likely?  Perhaps not.  But "could" merits the response.

A broken jaw heals.

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She's wrong for hitting but why does the result have to be a broken jaw?


If you start a fight, you assume that risk.  It is a logical consequence.  Unless you assert women are legally children who must be protected from the consequences of their actions...

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If I push a gun owner is the result to be shot to death?


Very well could.  Might be a good idea not to violently assault someone who might be armed and judge your felonious assault as a clear and present danger to his life and well being.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 08, 2007, 08:07 PM

There have even been excuses made in this thread for the action.  Take a look at Gonzo's comment or the one made by TPTM and you will see what I mean.


I've seen women who were never hit falsely accuse someone of assault, and get TRO's based on "I'm scared" and provide no reason for their "fear."

Women have plenty of advocates, and advocates who will even defend their "right" to falsely accuse men.

So I \refuse to re-invent the wheel.  I am here for my brothers, and I am not about to dilute my efforts to that end. 

Women have tossed men under the bus for years, with no thought to their well being.  Fine.  So be it.  Let them solve their own problems.  Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: BRIAN on Jul 08, 2007, 08:14 PM
Preach on Gonzo!

I think more men need to hold women to the standards that men hold men too.  A man would not think twice about busting a 130lb person in the mouth for hiting them if the person was another man. Why should that be different if the person who strikes you is a female.



Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Mr. X on Jul 08, 2007, 08:27 PM

Preach on Gonzo!

I think more men need to hold women to the standards that men hold men too.  A man would not think twice about busting a 130lb person in the mouth for hiting them if the person was another man. Why should that be different if the person who strikes you is a female.






Yeah and when that hoe talks back you can break her jaw too. yeah a slap definitly deserves a broken jaw. A kick deserves a severed arm. A bad word deserves a gouged out eye. Perhaps disobedience deserves broken teeth. Disagreeing deserves mental abuse.

Hey so when a 7 year old kicks you do you break their legs cause you have a massive size an weight advantage? I don't care what the sex of the other person is, proportionality always should apply. So next time a kid bumps into me in the grocery store I should pick up their tiny little 60lb body and shove it through the glass door cause I can. WEEE DOGGIEE ITS FAIR GAME TIME!

Hey Gonzo, remember your attitude when you're 75 in a nursing home and some nurse breaks your arm cause you swatted her hand. Remember the weak must always be kept in line by the bullies who have a distinct physical advantage... oops I mean the "strong". You will be weak someday Gonzo. When that day comes I hope a younger, stronger woman breaks your jaw.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: . on Jul 08, 2007, 09:21 PM
Mr. X, so what would you have a man do, when he has been assaulted by a woman?  Just sit there and take it?  If it's in an ongoing relationship and both partners are living together, this is probably not just an isolated incident.  It's probably a pattern.  One punch in the nose will be followed a week hence by a kick in the groin.  The violence goes on and on.  One day a man will have enough of it, and lash out.  I'm not justifying retributive violence on a moral level (although it might be justified, depending).  I'm just referring to human nature.  A woman is 7 times more likely to sustain injury in mutual combat, which means that one of seven assaults she commits will incur injury.  The pattern guarantees that the man will bleed, have broken bones, head trauma, or worse.

The violence must stop!  If it doesn't, do you really think a man who is much larger has a moral obligation to just sit there and take it?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 08, 2007, 09:29 PM
there is a difference between self defense and bullying Mr X,  a jab to the face and left hook to the liver for a slap would IMO fall under self defense...........................hitting someone when they are down though is bad ettiquette
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 08, 2007, 09:46 PM

Mr. X, so what would you have a man do, when he has been assaulted by a woman?  Just sit there and take it?  If it's in an ongoing relationship and both partners are living together, this is probably not just an isolated incident.  It's probably a pattern.  One punch in the nose will be followed a week hence by a kick in the groin.  The violence goes on and on.  One day a man will have enough of it, and lash out.  I'm not justifying retributive violence on a moral level (although it might be justified, depending).  I'm just referring to human nature.  A woman is 7 times more likely to sustain injury in mutual combat, which means that one of seven assaults she commits will incur injury.  The pattern guarantees that the man will bleed, have broken bones, head trauma, or worse.

The violence must stop!  If it doesn't, do you really think a man who is much larger has a moral obligation to just sit there and take it?


and you made me think of an interesting point...when a man sits back and takes it from a woman throwing  a temper tantrum, he really isn't doing her any favors, because after he wises up and leaves, the next dude she is with might be amore violent than she is;  but  DV is a form of bullying and a bullly usually reconsiders when they find out that they are going to have to at least give up a sandwich to get a meal....Im not advocating  putting a rodney king on a girl for a slap  or thrown lamp, but a good left hook to the kidney and uppercut to the solar plexus will not only incapacitate her long enough for you to get the hell out the dooor , it will usually keep  the fights verbal from that point on.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: . on Jul 08, 2007, 11:01 PM
...but a good left hook to the kidney and uppercut to the solar plexus will not only incapacitate her long enough for you to get the hell out the door, it will usually keep the fights verbal from that point on.


I would hope that such a relationship would end, and the abused man get out before he ever did retaliate.  Knowing the way domestic violence laws are stacked, an abused man has a bleak future if he retaliates.  In my state, California, a man who puts up his arms to shield his face from oncoming blows is considered an abuser if a woman's attacks leave bruises on his arms.  He can be arrested.

Women can be punished by the man's absence.  The only caveat is that men are heavily vested in their families if they have kids (they can't just leave the kids in the care of an abusive woman, and absconding would be considered kidnapping in many states); men are also financially vested in their homes.  Which is why retaliation by the male is not a solution to the problem of female violence, but rather a reaction.  Men who are abused by women have one out, in my opinion, if they wish to save all that they have.  This is especially applicable in relationships where there is a pattern of violence and abuse by a woman, making it predictable or inevitable.  Men in such abusive relationships must use surveillance to capture a woman's violence on tape.  That's what my Web site (DontMakeHerMad.com (http://www.dontmakehermad.com/)) promotes.

Simply fleeing the home by himself means he loses his kids (if he has any), and all his property.
Fleeing the home with any kids means he faces charges of child kidnapping.
Defending himself by blocking his attacker's blows means he can face charges of assault and battery.
Retaliating with violence means that he will almost definitely face assault charges, a restraining order, loss of custody, a move-out order, and an obligation to pay on the mortgage so his abusive wife can have it even easier.

Men have no options when they are abused.  Retaliation with violence is not a viable solution in giving violent women pause before they batter; rather, it's the kiss of death to the man.  I wish men could defend themselves with appropriate levels of violence if the situation called for it, but the laws (primary aggressor laws and mandatory arrest laws) don't support this (nor does society).

Men only have the almighty record button, or a reliable and friendly witness, as their chief weapons to counter abusive women.  Women simply get a pass in this society.  Look at the name of this thread; could a man retaliate against his pregnant and violent wife, in this system?  Legitimacy and the perception of moral high-ground must be secured by the man before he can make any appeal to law enforcement.  Surveillance provides that.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 09, 2007, 03:10 AM


Preach on Gonzo!

I think more men need to hold women to the standards that men hold men too.  A man would not think twice about busting a 130lb person in the mouth for hiting them if the person was another man. Why should that be different if the person who strikes you is a female.


Yeah and when that hoe talks back you can break her jaw too. yeah a slap definitly deserves a broken jaw. A kick deserves a severed arm. A bad word deserves a gouged out eye. Perhaps disobedience deserves broken teeth. Disagreeing deserves mental abuse.


Hyperbole.

Strike someone - get struck back.  Not that hard a concept.  Don't want to be struck back?  Don't commit the crime of battery, and initiate violence.

Brian is right - if a 130 pound man came up and whomped me, I'd plow him - and let the chips fall where they may.  If his jaw is broken when he wakes up - it's on him.

Why should I offer a woman special treatment in that regard?

Your knee-jerk, one-sided chivalry is showing.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: dr e on Jul 09, 2007, 05:10 AM
I can see both sides. 

I think we have agreement that women are not held accountable for their violence.  The question seems to revolve around the hypothetical response to the violent act. 

Yes, a man should be able to respond with force if he is attacked. I think we all agree there. I am no lawyer but I would guess that the courts would allow a response to a violent act that was in self-defense.  I would bet that they might be less understanding if the act in response was a level or two or three above the initial act.  An exagerated example:  A man hits  you in the arm in a bar.  He hits you with a closed fist and he hits hard.  You respond by cutting off his legs with a chain saw.  Guess what?  You go to jail.  The response didn't match the event.  I think both Gonz and Mr X are in basic agreement but differ in the degree of response that should be allowed with Mr X thinking the response should be more restrained and Gonz thinking in more "liberal" terms.

It's an interesting question. 
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: TheManOnTheStreet on Jul 09, 2007, 05:16 AM
And there you have it.  Freaking troll comes in, makes rediculous statements on a mens forum telling men that they should maintain the chivelrous status quo.. stirs the pot... then sits back with her bon-bons and giggles at the men bickering...

Pathetic.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: dr e on Jul 09, 2007, 05:34 AM
Sadly agree with you Al.  Check your pms.

E


And there you have it.  Freaking troll comes in, makes rediculous statements on a mens forum telling men that they should maintain the chivelrous status quo.. stirs the pot... then sits back with her bon-bons and giggles at the men bickering...

Pathetic.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 06:12 AM
So anyone that voices an opinion that isn't the standard men always good women always bad black and white view of the universe some here appear to hold; they are a troll?

And to think I thought this was a debate forum.  You guys do not want a debate you are more inclined toward the "yeah, what he said" thing.

Why would a man have to just sit and take it if attacked by a woman?  There is no law that states such.  Why not press charges and follow through the legal process?

Given the example Gonzo gave; a woman slapping a man twice her size gives him the right to break her jaw, does that mean if the same woman picks up on equalizer and uses it then everything is good?

She would be defending herself against a much stronger attacker.

Police do not magically appear when an attack takes place.  They are called.  Once they are there if the abused wants to pursue charges then an arrest is made.  What's so hard about that?

You have to use the legal process or be willing to accept the consequences of ignoring it.

If you choose to ignore it and prove your manhood by beating down someone twice your size; you shouldn't be surprised if you are held repsonsible for the stupidity of it all.

You can't blame the feminist for that.  Blame it on the man in the mirror.  He's the one that made the bad call.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 09, 2007, 06:30 AM

So anyone that voices an opinion that isn't the standard men always good women always bad black and white view of the universe some here appear to hold; they are a troll?


Shit-pot stirring =/= troll.

Quote
And to think I thought this was a debate forum.  You guys do not want a debate you are more inclined toward the "yeah, what he said" thing.


Gee, and here me and Mr. X just had a difference of opinion.

Methinks the troll doth protest too much.  What YOU are wanting is people to be impressed with your profundity and cleverness.

Quote
Why would a man have to just sit and take it if attacked by a woman?  There is no law that states such.  Why not press charges and follow through the legal process?


"What a whiner!  THAT didn't hurt!"

Quote
Given the example Gonzo gave; a woman slapping a man twice her size gives him the right to break her jaw, does that mean if the same woman picks up on equalizer and uses it then everything is good?


No, Troll.  A woman hitting a man - not slapping.  Do not put words in my mouth in your attempt to spin the example.

You hit - you get hit back.  And you suck it up if your alligator mouth gets your hummingbird ass in trouble for it.  Guess what - also in my example a woman who never hits a man never gets hit back.  Or hit to begin with.

But we overlook that...

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She would be defending herself against a much stronger attacker.


No, Troll - she would be, AS THE ATTACKER - escalating the violence she initiated.

Quote
Police do not magically appear when an attack takes place.  They are called.  Once they are there if the abused wants to pursue charges then an arrest is made.  What's so hard about that?


Duluth model where the man - because of his greater size and strength - is automatically rubricized as the "primary agressor" regardless of the facts.

Quote
You have to use the legal process or be willing to accept the consequences of ignoring it.


I am fully advocating the legal process.  It is legal in most places to defend yourself from an attack.  I'm just advocating women be part of this too and not yhave a pussy pass to initiate violence.

Something wrong with that, Troll?

Quote
If you choose to ignore it and prove your manhood by beating down someone twice your size; you shouldn't be surprised if you are held repsonsible for the stupidity of it all.


Ah, the trollish "Blame and shame" game.  Try this one on for size, Troll: "Little Person's Disease."  That's where some skinny little, flannel mouthed runt goes up to the biggest guy they can find and starts a fight, counting on someone to come to their aid if they start getting their heads handed to them - to prove wha big, strong, capable people they really are; because, yanno, any big guy who defends himself against an obnoxious and aggressive twerp is really a big bully.

They should just take it, and be a pussy instead.

Quote
You can't blame the feminist for that.  Blame it on the man in the mirror.  He's the one that made the bad call.


And I look forward to the day when some cunt smacks a guy and gets backhanded for it, people everywhere say "You can't blame the man for that.  Blame it on the woman in the mirror.  She's the one that made the bad call."

You want equality?  Be equal, then.  If you want to be a legal child - expect to be treated like one, and told to go sit down while the grown-ups talk.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 09, 2007, 06:34 AM
spot on gonzo bloke!!!! I'll buy you a pint of stella owd taeter!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just had an arguement with a female friend of mine(a feminist at  that) over this same sbject
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 06:36 AM
Gonzo,
You are not even worth the time.  You are incapable of having a civilized conversation and debate is way beyond your basic capability.

Whiner?

Look in the mirror. 
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 09, 2007, 06:45 AM
at least gonzo cna look in the mirror............your so ugly your mirrors went on strike :angryfire:

go take a ride with ted kennedy, troll
PISS ON FEMINIST TROLLS
R KELLY STYLE
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 06:53 AM

at least gonzo cna look in the mirror............your so ugly your mirrors went on strike :angryfire:

go take a ride with ted kennedy, troll
PISS ON FEMINIST TROLLS
R KELLY STYLE


You know nothing of me.  Just because I state that you follow the legal process I'm a troll?

Poor guy.  Well, I guess it's easier to pretend the legal system is against you if you refuse to use it when needed.

It's also easier to pretend that females have a different set of laws that affect them as opposed to males if you do not involve the police.

So your and gonzo's answer is alway up the antie on the violence and then blame anyone other than yourself?

Yeah, that's an example of clear thinking isn't it?

Why do the right thing when the wrong thing feels so much better.  That way you can blame your own stupidity of some evil force that keeps you down.

I can understand why you are so upset.  It is difficult to debate someone that is using their mind.  Might as well call them a troll and pitch a fit while doing it. :laughing6:
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 09, 2007, 08:05 AM
you are the internet ersion of glass joe from mike tyson's punch out nentendo game back in the 80's

and what kind of dumb name is  who me? anyway...if you were from texas you would know who?
who????
MIKE JONES!!!!
:laughing6: :laughing6: :laughing6:

  anyway if you are suggesting that self defense isnt a basic human right, you really do have your head up your culo
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 09, 2007, 08:40 AM

Gonzo,
You are not even worth the time.  You are incapable of having a civilized conversation and debate is way beyond your basic capability.

Whiner?

Look in the mirror. 


Awwwww ... Ol' Gonzo Meany didn't fall down and roll over for the feminist.  Bad Gonzo.

In other words, you got nothing.  Pretty fucking typical for femherroids, actually - unless you all are in an echo chamber, complete with the Shoutdown Chorus, and a sympathetic moderator ready to edit or ban anyone who gets the better of you, you're pretty worthless as far as debate goes.

It's little wonder left-wing ass-bags (among which are numbered feminists) are always so intent on silencing dissent.

Oh, in if you read for context - I know nuance, like math, is hard, but do try - the "What a whiner!  THAT didn't hurt!" is a direct answer to your question of "Why not use the legal system?"  Because that is the response we get.

So, let's take a look at your observation: "So your and gonzo's (Gonzo's) answer is alway up the antie(ante) on the violence and then blame anyone other than yourself?"

Now here we have a red herring. The victim of an attack - Under the legal system you claim we don't use - almost ALWAYS has the right of escalation (Places like the People's Republik of Massachusetts excepted, of course).  If you attack me with a lethal weapon, for instance, I have the right to counter that attack, and meet it with one as lethal.  If I merely injure you - what you get, and in fact, YOU will wind up in jail for assault with a deadly weapon, if not attempted murder.  If I kill you - I'll sleep in my own bed that night.  :greener: If you win, or kill me - you are still the criminal.

And that really seems to bother you - holding women to the same standard as men.  Imagine that.  REAL equality bothers a feminist.

Hmmm.  Wonder why that is?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 08:40 AM

you are the internet ersion of glass joe from mike tyson's punch out nentendo game back in the 80's

and what kind of dumb name is  who me? anyway...if you were from texas you would know who?
who????
MIKE JONES!!!!
:laughing6: :laughing6: :laughing6:

  anyway if you are suggesting that self defense isnt a basic human right, you really do have your head up your culo


Would you like to quote the post in which I made the statement that self defense is not a basic human right?

You want to be treated equally by the legal process but see no value in utilizing the legal process toward that end?  Makes no sense at all.  If that's what you want to be known for you are doing a great job.

Given the scenario Gonzo cooked up the female would be within her legal rights to physically defend herself from the attack of a stronger being.

Common sense would dictate that upping the antie on the level of violence is self defeating at best.  A more measured and mature approach would be to press charges for the intial strike instead of trying to prove what a big, strong man you are by upping the antie.

You see, that's where you would get yourself in deep trouble.  Because now you have created a situation where the woman would need medical help and of course it would be very obvious how she came about her injuries.  So you would end up in handcuffs and most likely whining about how you as a "man" are being kept down by the court system.

Self defeating not only on a personal level but also for this movement you speak of.  How could you seriously represent a movement bemoaning the abuse of men while you are on trial for beating the crap out of a woman?  The reaction of the public would be...there they go crying  because they are in jail and to top it off they blame it on the victim.

Who is Mike Jones anyway?  It was just a few minutes ago you were pitching a fit calling me a feminist and now you have decided I'm Mike Jones. :dontknow:  Too funny.  But then what else are you going to do since it seems debate is beyond your basic capabilities. :greener:
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Garak on Jul 09, 2007, 08:41 AM
Who Me,
Gonzo is calling for equality in the DV matter as currently it is not equal. I am beginning to see that you are here to stir the pot and use your female manipulative power to turn men against one another, something women do well in everyday life.

It's ok though, it will only work for a so long. You say men should use the legal process that is very likely to arrest and charge them. You don't yet see that the legal process favors women and you also fail to see that women are told to hit back so the equal set of advice for men would be what?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: FP on Jul 09, 2007, 08:42 AM



It just seems that with so many cheering when a woman is beaten or killed while blaming her for the abuse it's impossible to expect someone to take the issue of the 9.7% of physical attacks by women on men seriously. 

If you guys want to get a movement going and have people take it seriously, you are going to have to learn to show some compassion for what makes up 1/2 of the population. 

So many on this board complain about women doing certain things and then turn right around and do the exact thing they are complaining about.

It comes off as childish, irresponsible, and vindictive all at once.  Surely that is not the message you want to send, no?

And uh, I am relaxed.  Do not assume just because someone disagrees with you that they are hysterical.  The assumption for one thing is wrong and for another does nothing for the debate. 


1. Childish, vindictive and irresponsible. Hmm. You mean like the whole Lorena Bobbit deal? Women cheering that she "got off"? These days, its often a reaction to horribly biased laws against men. I see more chivalrous (or otherwise) condemnation of men by men than I ever do of women by women. See that gal in Texas who drowned her 5 kids or the gal in Tennessee who just got off after offing her hubby with a shotgun while he slept. Oh, wait he made wear a wig and high heels... the horror.

2. Show some compassion for the "other half" eh? Ive seen far far more compassion from men for women than the reverse. That is what woke me up towards the end of my college days. "Girls mature faster than boys" sure was rare among the young "ladies" I interacted with.

Stop and smell the manure you're shoveling. All the whinging, the crying, the grrl power, the raw fury of women and oh gee golly, they get a bit miffed when men start asserting themselves in the name of equality as well. Get back to work you uppity coolie! How dare a man want to be treated equally, why the very notion is just silly you say. Women have become exactly what their grannies, mommies and aunties railed against back in the vaunted "women's lib" days. Spoiled, selfish sluts. Me, me, me generation indeed. I grew up in the 80s and 90s, a mix of grll power, feminism and chivalry. As I just hit year 30, my well of compassion has dried up darlin, my "love bank" is empty. It is likely to stay that way until women start making a genuine effort to see past their own face.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Virtue on Jul 09, 2007, 08:43 AM
I was going to make an impeccable argument, around the escalation of force, and the need for not responding in kind but with overwhelming force.  The reason for this is simple.....You don't give the AGGRESSOR the chance to up the force.  For example.  If a person slaps you un-provoked you dont slap them back......you beat them unconscious or break a major bone......and you do it as quickly as possible.......if you slap them back......then they will escalate the violence.  They will then hit you or get a weapon......You NEVER give them that chance......doesn't matter if they have a vagina or not......but I see I would just be wasting key strokes on a troll.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 09, 2007, 08:50 AM
very good point virtue
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 09:08 AM

Who Me,
Gonzo is calling for equality in the DV matter as currently it is not equal. I am beginning to see that you are here to stir the pot and use your female manipulative power to turn men against one another, something women do well in everyday life.

It's ok though, it will only work for a so long. You say men should use the legal process that is very likely to arrest and charge them. You don't yet see that the legal process favors women and you also fail to see that women are told to hit back so the equal set of advice for men would be what?


If you do not utilize the legal channels available you are only setting yourself up to be charged as the attacker.

Gonzo offered no words of wisdom.  His post was nothing more than a knee jerk reaction in text.

How do you ever expect the legal process to work for you if you do not use it?  How can you step back with the "she asked for it" attitude and expect to come out ahead or on level field?

If your answer is to hit back harder and do far more damage on a physical level then you deserve exactly what would be coming at you by way of the legal system.

It's really funny that you assume me a troll simply because I've bringing up very valid points here.

If you guys are an example of what is powering the men's movement; you can expect one failure after another.  You do not see the advantage of working within the law; instead you want to utilize the brute force that so many have been convicted of using time and time again.

Haven't you learned that if you go to put a fire out using gasoline and the fire just burns hotter that using the gasoline isn't the answer?  Trying the same losing method time and again will not give a new result.  It will only yield more of the same old loses.

Maybe you do not want a new result?  Are you more content complaining or do you want real change?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 09, 2007, 09:12 AM


Would you like to quote the post in which I made the statement that self defense is not a basic human right?

You want to be treated equally by the legal process but see no value in utilizing the legal process toward that end?  Makes no sense at all.  If that's what you want to be known for you are doing a great job.


Then which part of smacking someone in retaliation for an assault isn't self defense?

Let's use your own words since you are so keen on them: "Police do not magically appear when an attack takes place.  They are called.  Once they are there if the abused wants to pursue charges then an arrest is made.  What's so hard about that?"

The very relevant terms are underlined for your edification.  UNTIL the police do get there, I am defending myself by what means are necessary..

"What's so hard about that?"

Commit the crime of assault on someone bigger - get your ass kicked - go to jail too.  Just like if you were a man.  No special treatment.

You aren't asking for special treatment, are you?

Quote
Given the scenario Gonzo cooked up the female would be within her legal rights to physically defend herself from the attack of a stronger being.


So let's get this straight.  Woman assaults man.  Man responds.  Woman legally entitled to defend herself with escalation- unlike a man who would have no such right if he initiated the assault on another man.

Have I missed anything?

Only a feminist would have such a fucked up and warped view.

Quote
Common sense would dictate that upping the antie on the level of violence is self defeating at best.  A more measured and mature approach would be to press charges for the intial strike instead of trying to prove what a big, strong man you are by upping the antie.


Ante.  The term is "ante."

Common sense and simple logic also dictates that one who has no intention to commit the crime of assault would be utterly unaffected by whether someone is entitled to respond in kind.  So the question has to be asked: Why does that bother you so much?

Might lose that female privilege to whup on men without fear of getting hit back?

Gotcha.

Quote
You see, that's where you would get yourself in deep trouble.  Because now you have created a situation where the woman would need medical help and of course it would be very obvious how she came about her injuries.  So you would end up in handcuffs and most likely whining about how you as a "man" are being kept down by the court system.


Only a feminist would see a woman who initiates an assault and who gets whupped for her violence as some sort of a victim.

Quote
Self defeating not only on a personal level but also for this movement you speak of.  How could you seriously represent a movement bemoaning the abuse of men while you are on trial for beating the crap out of a woman?  The reaction of the public would be...there they go crying  because they are in jail and to top it off they blame it on the victim.


That's why we have to change the cultural memes.  Which is why you will see every atrocity committed by women posted in places like here.  Sooner or later the whole "Sugar and Spice" myth will hit the point where it - and your privilege - is gone.

Your violence as a sex will no longer be invisible.

Scary, eh?

Quote
Who is Mike Jones anyway?  It was just a few minutes ago you were pitching a fit calling me a feminist and now you have decided I'm Mike Jones. :dontknow:


It's called "Google." :greener:

Quote
Too funny.  But then what else are you going to do since it seems debate is beyond your basic capabilities. :greener:


Anyone taking bets on the "You must masturbate a lot" or "Just because you can't get laid" cards being played?

I give her three posts before penis size, et al, becomes part of her ad hominem strategy.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Garak on Jul 09, 2007, 09:17 AM


Who Me,
Gonzo is calling for equality in the DV matter as currently it is not equal. I am beginning to see that you are here to stir the pot and use your female manipulative power to turn men against one another, something women do well in everyday life.

It's ok though, it will only work for a so long. You say men should use the legal process that is very likely to arrest and charge them. You don't yet see that the legal process favors women and you also fail to see that women are told to hit back so the equal set of advice for men would be what?


If you do not utilize the legal channels available you are only setting yourself up to be charged as the attacker.

Gonzo offered no words of wisdom.  His post was nothing more than a knee jerk reaction in text.

How do you ever expect the legal process to work for you if you do not use it?  How can you step back with the "she asked for it" attitude and expect to come out ahead or on level field?

If your answer is to hit back harder and do far more damage on a physical level then you deserve exactly what would be coming at you by way of the legal system.

It's really funny that you assume me a troll simply because I've bringing up very valid points here.

If you guys are an example of what is powering the men's movement; you can expect one failure after another.  You do not see the advantage of working within the law; instead you want to utilize the brute force that so many have been convicted of using time and time again.

Haven't you learned that if you go to put a fire out using gasoline and the fire just burns hotter that using the gasoline isn't the answer?  Trying the same losing method time and again will not give a new result.  It will only yield more of the same old loses.

Maybe you do not want a new result?  Are you more content complaining or do you want real change?


You don't get it do you. Men do not trust the legal system and it is no suprise that you want us to put ourselves at it's mercy....it favors YOU.

You want us to use the legal system? You show real support for true equality in DV laws, until then you are asking us to put ourselves at the mercy of a biased laws which in turn just makes it easier for you to imprison us for your irresponsible and selfish acts.

We hit you and you run to the police with no fear but you fail to see it does not work that way for men and until you do your opinion is mute here. You are trying to manipulate men with a sense of chivalry that women have been abusing for too long now. Chivalry puts man against man at it's worst and women are not shy to use it to get what they want, no matter who it hurts.

If you want people here to listen to you then you need to start listening to us.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 09, 2007, 09:19 AM
I hope so, cause flame wars invigorate me :occasion18: :occasion18:

and if penis size is brought up.............ooohh eeeee.........................I just say " dont get in a pissing contest with one who's dick is bigger"

 but on another note,  the original threaed was brought up to discuss the fact that more fathers   than mothers fall victim to violence during pregnancy
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Garak on Jul 09, 2007, 09:21 AM



 but on another note,  the original threaed was brought up to discuss the fact that more fathers   than mothers fall victim to violence during pregnancy


Yes and every time there are stats that show men are being abused more than women someone comes along and downplays it to protect the female victim status. Makes one wonder if women would survive if all men moved off the planet.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 09:24 AM



Would you like to quote the post in which I made the statement that self defense is not a basic human right?

You want to be treated equally by the legal process but see no value in utilizing the legal process toward that end?  Makes no sense at all.  If that's what you want to be known for you are doing a great job.


Then which part of smacking someone in retaliation for an assault isn't self defense?

Let's use your own words since you are so keen on them: "Police do not magically appear when an attack takes place.  They are called.  Once they are there if the abused wants to pursue charges then an arrest is made.  What's so hard about that?"

The very relevant terms are underlined for your edification.  UNTIL the police do get there, I am defending myself by what means are necessary..

"What's so hard about that?"

Commit the crime of assault on someone bigger - get your ass kicked - go to jail too.  Just like if you were a man.  No special treatment.

You aren't asking for special treatment, are you?

Quote
Given the scenario Gonzo cooked up the female would be within her legal rights to physically defend herself from the attack of a stronger being.


So let's get this straight.  Woman assaults man.  Man responds.  Woman legally entitled to defend herself with escalation- unlike a man who would have no such right if he initiated the assault on another man.

Have I missed anything?

Only a feminist would have such a fucked up and warped view.

Quote
Common sense would dictate that upping the antie on the level of violence is self defeating at best.  A more measured and mature approach would be to press charges for the intial strike instead of trying to prove what a big, strong man you are by upping the antie.


Ante.  The term is "ante."

Common sense and simple logic also dictates that one who has no intention to commit the crime of assault would be utterly unaffected by whether someone is entitled to respond in kind.  So the question has to be asked: Why does that bother you so much?

Might lose that female privilege to whup on men without fear of getting hit back?

Gotcha.

Quote
You see, that's where you would get yourself in deep trouble.  Because now you have created a situation where the woman would need medical help and of course it would be very obvious how she came about her injuries.  So you would end up in handcuffs and most likely whining about how you as a "man" are being kept down by the court system.


Only a feminist would see a woman who initiates an assault and who gets whupped for her violence as some sort of a victim.

Quote
Self defeating not only on a personal level but also for this movement you speak of.  How could you seriously represent a movement bemoaning the abuse of men while you are on trial for beating the crap out of a woman?  The reaction of the public would be...there they go crying  because they are in jail and to top it off they blame it on the victim.


That's why we have to change the cultural memes.  Which is why you will see every atrocity committed by women posted in places like here.  Sooner or later the whole "Sugar and Spice" myth will hit the point where it - and your privilege - is gone.

Your violence as a sex will no longer be invisible.

Scary, eh?

Quote
Who is Mike Jones anyway?  It was just a few minutes ago you were pitching a fit calling me a feminist and now you have decided I'm Mike Jones. :dontknow:


It's called "Google." :greener:

Quote
Too funny.  But then what else are you going to do since it seems debate is beyond your basic capabilities. :greener:


Anyone taking bets on the "You must masturbate a lot" or "Just because you can't get laid" cards being played?

I give her three posts before penis size, et al, becomes part of her ad hominem strategy.


No, I have no intention of stooping to your level.

What part of injuries that require medical attention do you not understand?  The little woman goes to the hospital to get the jaw wired so it can heal.  It's obivous how it happened and to top it off she tells the police big, bad Gonzo proved his manhood by slugging her in the jaw.

Big, bad Gonzo goes to big boy jail.  It's very simple. 

What keeps big, bad Gonzo from calling the police and pressing charges?  What keeps big, bad Gonzo from standing outside while waiting for the police to get there?  You know, remove yourself from the situation until the police arrive?

Common sense but of course I guess it isn't as much fun as slugging someone 1/2 your size and then crying because you get arrested for it.  You know, the man keeping you down and all.

I'm not interested enough to google the name.  I just find it interesting that I've gone from female to male to female because you guys either do not agree with what I'm posting or you are having trouble understanding what you read.

Thanks for the spell check.  Maybe you do have some use anyway. :greener:
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 09, 2007, 09:29 AM
first of all .........I was making light of your name by comparing it to the  phrase  "who????Mike jones?????" from musical performer mike jones, a fellow texan..........as far as what you are saying to gonzo, you make yourself look about as smart as the love child of anna nicole smith and  forrest gump.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 09, 2007, 09:32 AM

If you do not utilize the legal channels available you are only setting yourself up to be charged as the attacker.


How long ago was it she denied such biases in the system existed?
Quote

Gonzo offered no words of wisdom.  His post was nothing more than a knee jerk reaction in text.


Ad hominem.  Bad troll. No Biscuit.

Quote
How do you ever expect the legal process to work for you if you do not use it?  How can you step back with the "she asked for it" attitude and expect to come out ahead or on level field?


I expect to change minds and hearts one person at a time until "She asked for it by initiating the assault" becomes accepted by the populace at large.

You seem to have this problem with women who commit violence being subject to the basic rules of self defense.

Quote
If your answer is to hit back harder and do far more damage on a physical level then you deserve exactly what would be coming at you by way of the legal system.


Again - you seem to have this fixation with someone being able to assault someone far bigger and stronger with impunity.  It's almost as if you're afraid you'll one day be called to account for this, or have to change your behavior.
Quote

It's really funny that you assume me a troll simply because I've bringing up very valid points here.


Mheh.

Quote
If you guys are an example of what is powering the men's movement; you can expect one failure after another.  You do not see the advantage of working within the law; instead you want to utilize the brute force that so many have been convicted of using time and time again.


Every time some man on a jury says "Who says women never lie?  Who says women don't commit acts of violence?" and votes innocent, we move ahead.  Every time some man steps next door and says "Wait a minute - she hit him FIRST!  I was a witness!" we move ahead.

Quote
Haven't you learned that if you go to put a fire out using gasoline and the fire just burns hotter that using the gasoline isn't the answer?  Trying the same losing method time and again will not give a new result.  It will only yield more of the same old loses.

Maybe you do not want a new result?  Are you more content complaining or do you want real change?


Yes, we have indeed learned that doing the same thing over and over - like turning to the legal system for relief - and expecting a different result is insane.

Our intent now is to put that same yoke of laws you placed on our necks on yours.  Getting rid of Ladies Only gyms and Ladies Night in California - making sure career women lose custody of their kids for working and "Not being there - The intent now with things like this is to make you "just people" and nothing special when it comes to violence and assault.  Just like you femherroids asked.

This will produce three things, alone or in combo:

1) Jane Average will self-identify less and less as a feminist since feminist laws are reducing her ancient protections.

2) Feminists will come to the table and negotiate after screaming uncle, or

3) Feminists will agitate for OPENLY sexist and misandric laws and either be seen for what they are, or will succeed and justify open rebellion.


"What we are seeing in this headless misandry is a grand display of the Tyranny of the Underdog: 'I am a wretchedly longstanding victim; therefore I own no burden of adult accountability, nor need to honor any restraint against my words and actions. In fact, all efforts to restrain me are only further proof of my oppressed condition.'

It is the most perfect trump-card against accountable living ever devised."

                      ------------------Gladden Schrock, from The Tyranny of the Underdog.

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 09, 2007, 09:41 AM
Quote
Why would a man have to just sit and take it if attacked by a woman?  There is no law that states such.  Why not press charges and follow through the legal process?

Given the example Gonzo gave; a woman slapping a man twice her size gives him the right to break her jaw, does that mean if the same woman picks up on equalizer and uses it then everything is good?

She would be defending herself against a much stronger attacker.

Police do not magically appear when an attack takes place.  They are called.  Once they are there if the abused wants to pursue charges then an arrest is made.  What's so hard about that?

You have to use the legal process or be willing to accept the consequences of ignoring it.

If you choose to ignore it and prove your manhood by beating down someone twice your size; you shouldn't be surprised if you are held repsonsible for the stupidity of it all.

You can't blame the feminist for that.  Blame it on the man in the mirror.  He's the one that made the bad call.


Because the legal system under VAWA is corrupt and rotten to the core.  A house (contention) built on sand as yours is, falls down.

In CA as in many other states, men experiencing domestic violence are denied access to taxpayer funded domestic violence shelter and services, all thanks to the evil, gender feminist, VAWA (Violence Against Women Act).  The entire man-hating system works to batter, abuse and ignore valid male victims, while excusing and rewarding female batterers.

Quote
# If the police spent as much time looking for real evidence of domestic violence as they do looking for rationalizations to fit their gender profiling prejudices,

# If the police spent as much time looking for real evidence of domestic violence as they do fabricating evidence to fit their gender profiling prejudices,

# If the police spent as much time looking for real evidence of domestic violence as they do destroying (or ignoring) real evidence to fit their gender profiling prejudices,

then there wouldn't be nearly so many men being railroaded in our gender bigoted courts and having their lives destroyed by false accusations of domestic violence.

We have the domestic violence industry's gender bigoted, domestic violence trainers largely to thank for the hate war on men being waged by our gender feminist trained police and judges.  America's police and judges are trained by gender feminist bigots to be man-hating bigots - and they are.  Our American system of law, that clearly has such a tyranny in place in one area under the Violence Against Women Act, has no integrity in any area.

"Again, police, prosecutors and judges."  All are trained (indoctrinated) into gender feminists' Stalinist ideology through STOP grants funded by VAWA.  Police with their Stalinist no drop policy, prosecutors with their mandatory prosecution policy, both: fabricating, destroying, and withholding evidence as it suits their profiling prejudices and career motivations.

Judges, like the devil personified, add refinement to the depth of the deception with the ultimate hypocrisy carried out through a court room deception pretending to dispense justice. The judge carries out his unconstitutional rape of law, knowing full well the systematic misandry that leads to his courtroom. Once inside the Judges Star Chamber, this black robed Satan, merely serves as a pimp for gender feminist laws, dispensing decisions in compliance with the wishes of the gender feminist court watchers.  Like any pimp who sells his ho's, the Judge is ultimately just a low-life street hustler all dressed up in fancy clothes, a mockery of those people who actually have integrity and class.


http://www.glennsacks.com/baseball_players_domestic.htm (http://www.glennsacks.com/baseball_players_domestic.htm)

Baseball Player's Domestic Violence Arrest Demonstrates How Men are Presumed Guilty in Domestic Disputes
By Glenn Sacks

Quote
Domestic violence activist Greg Schmidt, a police lieutenant who created the Seattle police department's domestic violence investigation unit in 1994, says that cases like Erickson's demonstrate the way men are often presumed guilty in domestic disputes.  He notes that mandatory arrest laws, such as California's, frustrate police officers because they are "expected to make arrests in petty incidents, often where the woman is the aggressor, the abuse is mutual, or it is unclear who the aggressor was."

"The domestic violence industry--the trainers, the shelter directors, etc.--can spin things however they want," he says, "but most street cops know that women are just as likely to start domestic disputes as men are.  But arresting women puts you under lot of scrutiny.  It's bad for your career."

Schmidt also criticizes the dominant aggressor doctrine which discourages dual arrests (which are often an appropriate measure) and instructs police to downplay who struck the first blow. Instead, police are asked to focus on who is (supposedly) in control of the situation and who is more fearful--often code words for "arrest the man."

Part of the problem is the training that police officers receive from the domestic violence industry, which insists that 95% of domestic violence is committed by men. Southern California domestic violence consultant Anne O'Dell, who has conducted over 500 domestic violence trainings of police officers and commanders, judges, district attorneys, and victim advocates, tells her trainees that "if a police officer is arresting more than 8% women, you've got a real problem.  When an officer arrests 12% or 15% women, I'm outraged." O'Dell says that dual arrests should occur in no more than 3% of incidents.


(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/TruckSigns1/d51cbaae.jpg)
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 09:47 AM

Every time some man on a jury says "Who says women never lie?  Who says women don't commit acts of violence?" and votes innocent, we move ahead.  Every time some man steps next door and says "Wait a minute - she hit him FIRST!  I was a witness!" we move ahead.


If you do not utilize the legal system but instead opt for the hit 'em hard enough to put them in the hospital approach instead; the only jury that will hear the case is the one chosen to judge your actions instead of hers.

It won't work to say she hit me first.  Because the evidence that you beat her up bad enough to require medical attention will just trump that.  The men on the jury will be the ones to come down on you the hardest.

Quote
Haven't you learned that if you go to put a fire out using gasoline and the fire just burns hotter that using the gasoline isn't the answer?  Trying the same losing method time and again will not give a new result.  It will only yield more of the same old loses.

Maybe you do not want a new result?  Are you more content complaining or do you want real change?


Yes, we have indeed learned that doing the same thing over and over - like turning to the legal system for relief - and expecting a different result is insane.

Our intent now is to put that same yoke of laws you placed on our necks on yours.  Getting rid of Ladies Only gyms and Ladies Night in California - making sure career women lose custody of their kids for working and "Not being there - The intent now with things like this is to make you "just people" and nothing special when it comes to violence and assault.  Just like you femherroids asked.

This will produce three things, alone or in combo:

1) Jane Average will self-identify less and less as a feminist since feminist laws are reducing her ancient protections.

2) Feminists will come to the table and negotiate after screaming uncle, or

3) Feminists will agitate for OPENLY sexist and misandric laws and either be seen for what they are, or will succeed and justify open rebellion.


Reading what I'm reading here says very loudly that you have not utilized the legal system but instead have opted for the brute force, I'm a big strong guy approach.  It's gotten you nowhere so far.

Do you really think the feminists are going to come to the table to negotiate with someone that figures if they can hit harder they win?

Equality under the law is just that.  But if you work outside of the system and keep on with the approach you are currently employing you can expect the same result you have always gotten.

Any by the way the only people that scream "A woman never lies," are people like you that think they are making some indepth point.  There are good women and bad women just like there are good men and bad men.  It's a human condition.  But until you start dealing with it on a human level you can expect more of the same.

Maybe that's beyond your abilities?  Or are you satisfied with the status quo?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 09, 2007, 09:51 AM
it is entirely possible to defend yoruself without putting her in the hospital.............and I wish you coudl visit my former place of employment and sit back on a hot july afternoon and observe the violence within the families there
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Virtue on Jul 09, 2007, 09:54 AM
Here let me help you little troll.  We the people ARE the legal system......We the people have the RIGHT TO DEFEND ourselves against ANY FORCE however small.  We no not have to wait for police.....WE NEVER GAVE UP ANY power or authority when we created the police forces.  We the people can defend ourselves AND ARREST ANYONE who unlawfully uses force against us.  We the people can use ANY FORCE which is NECESSARY to EFFECT that arrest.


Pull your head out of your revisionist history and Womans studies text books.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Mr. X on Jul 09, 2007, 09:55 AM

Mr. X, so what would you have a man do, when he has been assaulted by a woman?  Just sit there and take it?  If it's in an ongoing relationship and both partners are living together, this is probably not just an isolated incident.  It's probably a pattern.  One punch in the nose will be followed a week hence by a kick in the groin.  The violence goes on and on.  One day a man will have enough of it, and lash out.  I'm not justifying retributive violence on a moral level (although it might be justified, depending).  I'm just referring to human nature.  A woman is 7 times more likely to sustain injury in mutual combat, which means that one of seven assaults she commits will incur injury.  The pattern guarantees that the man will bleed, have broken bones, head trauma, or worse.

The violence must stop!  If it doesn't, do you really think a man who is much larger has a moral obligation to just sit there and take it?


You present a false dichotomy. If proportionality is applied a slap would be followed by a slap, NOT A BROKEN JAW. If a 120lb teen boy elbows me I'm not going to up and break his leg. Or how about the guy leaves her. Yes I know if the guy slaps her she'll call the police so then giving her a broken jaw woulod definitly put the guy in hot water.

Is this an acceptable thing to do? http://standyourground.com/forums/index.php?topic=13629.0
Woman gets in a fight and uses her 300lb boyfriend to beat someone up. A fine use of disproportionality. She solved her problem by breaking this guy with her boyfriend as a tool. So then how is that different than a 260lb man using his advantage against a 120lb person?

Yeah don't take shit but breaking and arm or a jaw for a slap is not a solution. And you don't think some women are just looking for that victim merit badge so they can show everyone how much of a victim they are? Maybe the real solution is to let this woman wallow in cold lonely darkness.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: . on Jul 09, 2007, 09:55 AM
I can't believe no one has really said this (except for Gonzo, although briefly; he alluded to the Duluth model)...

When a man calls police to report a woman's assault against him, he is arrested.  This is due to Primary Aggressor laws.  In such states, arrest is also mandatory.

Check out this video, Who Me:
http://www.cafcusa.org/video/video1.asp

The husband was repeatedly attacked by the wife.  Police arrive.  They arrest him.  The kids stand there BEGGING the police to arrest the mother instead, as she was the abuser.

Do you get it?

THE LAW IS THAT THE MAN GOES TO JAIL, BECAUSE HE IS THE "PRIMARY AGGRESSOR" IN WHAT POLICE DEEM "MUTUAL COMBAT."

Here's a map of the U.S. where such laws are in place:
http://www.dontmakehermad.com/research/arrestpolicies/

"Just use the legal process; don't hit back, because you're escalating to prove your manhood."  Shaming tactics, and ignorance.  I'm willing to bet you're close to being kicked off the board.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 09, 2007, 10:00 AM
I have news for you, why me.

I personally have helped several men get out from under bogus DV charges, brought to achieve advantage in a divorce proceeding, Have on one occasion voted "Not Guilty" in a DV case, and wound up hanging the jury, and wound up with the charges not being refiled, helped many men keep property in a divorce, and helped many men win custody.

I've even helped a couple men set up their ex-wives/ex-girlfriends because we couldn't get proof otherwise.  I have perjured myself for a brother. How are them apples?

Whatever works, babycakes.  Whatever it takes.

Feminism is an evil of such magnitude that the end does indeed justify most means.  I am a pragmatist when it comes to opposing the feminist agenda.  If tactic A is best here - do it.  If B is better there - go for it. 

I learned a while back to make your agenda my enemy - not you.  If I can give feminists everything they ask for until they choke on it - I will.  If I could oppose feminists best by seeing masses of you hung from lamp-posts - I wouldn't lose a minute's sleep.

You bitches have set up the legal system so it's a rigged game, and now you want us to play at the table?  HAH!  Unless I can stack the deck, it's a fool's bet.  Not on your life.  I have seen feminist ideas of "Playing Fair."  Oh, believe me - I will set down at a plaintiff's bench.  When it serves the greater purpose better.  I already have done so.

No more Mister Nice Guy. 
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Mr. X on Jul 09, 2007, 10:05 AM



Preach on Gonzo!

I think more men need to hold women to the standards that men hold men too.  A man would not think twice about busting a 130lb person in the mouth for hiting them if the person was another man. Why should that be different if the person who strikes you is a female.


Yeah and when that hoe talks back you can break her jaw too. yeah a slap definitly deserves a broken jaw. A kick deserves a severed arm. A bad word deserves a gouged out eye. Perhaps disobedience deserves broken teeth. Disagreeing deserves mental abuse.


Hyperbole.

Strike someone - get struck back.  Not that hard a concept.  Don't want to be struck back?  Don't commit the crime of battery, and initiate violence.

Brian is right - if a 130 pound man came up and whomped me, I'd plow him - and let the chips fall where they may.  If his jaw is broken when he wakes up - it's on him.

Why should I offer a woman special treatment in that regard?

Your knee-jerk, one-sided chivalry is showing.


Not chivalry. Just years at the hand of bullies in my youth. I'm not defending women, I'm defending smaller, weaker people. And you are the one mixing apples and oranges. The discussion was about a slap paid back with a broken jaw not a "whomping". Yeah if a 130lb man "whomped" on someone then they should get whomped back. But you explicitly talked about breaking a jaw for a slap. So does a broken leg go with an accidental elbowing? A black eye for a pat on the back?

Apparently you have never been in a helpless postion. You've never been small. Never been hospitalized. Never been crippled. Never been so weak you had to use tools to pry open soda cans. Yes people shouldn't be hitting each other but ignoring proportionality just bites you in the end. Sooner or later you will be weak Gonzo. I hope a nurse breaks your nose for patting her on the back.

I have no love loss for bullies of any kind. Here's an example of your system at work only in reverse:
http://standyourground.com/forums/index.php?topic=13629.0
Woman uses her 300lb boyfriend to beat the crap out of some guy cause he dared to talk back to her. Now this is your disproportionality at work. Very same principle. In this case, knock a guy out and God knows what else just cause he talked back. Again what is the difference between this and breaking a much smaller and weaker person's jaw for a slap? SLap them back, sure. Break their jaw... that's bullying.

C'mon Gonzo. Some big guy like you... ever been in a fight? How many times have you seen guys do any little thing like accidently elbow someone or throw a beer can at someone's head or grope someone's girlfriend JUST so the other guy does something so they can open a can of whoop ass on him. You've NEVER seen that? But according to you the excuse of "well he hit me so I broke his legs and messed him up with my 5 buddies. It was self defense and he was fair game" is a legit excuse.

I have no love loss for feminists or women in general but there is one group I hate worse: athletic bullies. There is a sick part of me that rooted for the Columbine boys. I wished they hda killed more athletes. An athlete with cut knees is music to my ears. An athlete with a sledgehammer to the spine is sweet music. "I can never play a sport again" is what I dream of hearing. In fact part of me LOVES title 9, ESPECIALLY when athletes lose. But I know its all dishonest disproportionality at work. Its a sick power trip. Same as breaking the jaw of a smaller person for a slap. Or using the police to arrest a husband for yelling. What realy is the difference between your disproportionality and that of a woman who hides behind the law or government or boyfriends? Just a different tool for the same ego trip.

Just cause I refuse to help women or play the knight in shinning armor does not mean I stop being who I am. That IS the goal of being an MRA, to be a man REGARDLESS of ANY circumstance or WHO is judging you. Who you are is an objective set of standards not some crap measured by women. The idea is to seperate from women and leave them in the dust and that means one has to define who they are without women as the dipstick that measures them.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 10:07 AM

I have news for you.

I personally have helped several men get out from under bogus DV charges, brought to achieve advantage in a divorce proceeding, Have on one occasion voted "Not Guilty" in a DV case, and wound up hanging the jury, and wound up with the charges not being refiled, helped many men keep property in a divorce, and helped many men win custody.

I've even helped a couple men set up their ex-wives/ex-girlfriends because we couldn't get proof otherwise.  I have perjured myself for a brother. How are them apples?

Whatever works, babycakes.  Whatever it takes.

Feminism is an evil of such magnitude that the end does indeed justify most means.  I am a pragmatist when it comes to opposing the feminist agenda.  If tactic A is best here - do it.  If B is better there - go for it. 

I learned a while back to make your agenda my enemy - not you.  If I can give feminists everything they ask for until they choke on it - I will.  If I could oppose feminists best by seeing masses of you hung from lamp-posts - I wouldn't lose a minute's sleep.

You bitches have set up the legal system so it's a rigged game, and now you want us to play at the table?  HAH!  Unless I can stack the deck, it's a fool's bet.  Not on your life.  I have seen feminist ideas of "Playing Fair."  Oh, believe me - I will set down at a plaintiff's bench.  When it serves the greater purpose better.  I already have done so.

No more Mister Nice Guy. 


For beginners I'm not a feminist.  I do find it interesting that you try so hard to push labels when someone challenges you.

It's also interesting that you admit to lying under oath and then complain about false allegations.  So it's a good thing when you do it, you even wave it around like a badge of honor; but you want to complain if a female does it?

Then to top it off you are unable to post without name calling.  Like I said, if you represent this movement you guys can expect a bad result.  You have to be able to bring it up a knotch or two on an intellectual and emotional level.  Middle school tactics should stay in middle school.  They have little value beyond the 8th grade.

If you do not work within the system you can expect to find that it works against you.  But I do get the impression you enjoy complaining about what you see as inequities than actually trying to do anything to improve the situation.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 10:10 AM




Preach on Gonzo!

I think more men need to hold women to the standards that men hold men too.  A man would not think twice about busting a 130lb person in the mouth for hiting them if the person was another man. Why should that be different if the person who strikes you is a female.


Yeah and when that hoe talks back you can break her jaw too. yeah a slap definitly deserves a broken jaw. A kick deserves a severed arm. A bad word deserves a gouged out eye. Perhaps disobedience deserves broken teeth. Disagreeing deserves mental abuse.


Hyperbole.

Strike someone - get struck back.  Not that hard a concept.  Don't want to be struck back?  Don't commit the crime of battery, and initiate violence.

Brian is right - if a 130 pound man came up and whomped me, I'd plow him - and let the chips fall where they may.  If his jaw is broken when he wakes up - it's on him.

Why should I offer a woman special treatment in that regard?

Your knee-jerk, one-sided chivalry is showing.


Not chivalry. Just years at the hand of bullies in my youth. I'm not defending women, I'm defending smaller, weaker people. And you are the one mixing apples and oranges. The discussion was about a slap paid back with a broken jaw not a "whomping". Yeah if a 130lb man "whomped" on someone then they should get whomped back. But you explicitly talked about breaking a jaw for a slap. So does a broken leg go with an accidental elbowing? A black eye for a pat on the back?

Apparently you have never been in a helpless postion. You've never been small. Never been hospitalized. Never been crippled. Never been so weak you had to use tools to pry open soda cans. Yes people shouldn't be hitting each other but ignoring proportionality just bites you in the end. Sooner or later you will be weak Gonzo. I hope a nurse breaks your nose for patting her on the back.

I have no love loss for bullies of any kind. Here's an example of your system at work only in reverse:
http://standyourground.com/forums/index.php?topic=13629.0
Woman uses her 300lb boyfriend to beat the crap out of some guy cause he dared to talk back to her. Now this is your disproportionality at work. Very same principle. In this case, knock a guy out and God knows what else just cause he talked back. Again what is the difference between this and breaking a much smaller and weaker person's jaw for a slap? SLap them back, sure. Break their jaw... that's bullying.

C'mon Gonzo. Some big guy like you... ever been in a fight? How many times have you seen guys do any little thing like accidently elbow someone or throw a beer can at someone's head or grope someone's girlfriend JUST so the other guy does something so they can open a can of whoop ass on him. You've NEVER seen that?


You see what you are talking about is meeting force with equal force.

That's a measured and mature approach.

That isn't what Gonzo is looking for.  It's obvious by his inability to speak without name calling and labelling.

I wonder if someone pays him every time he uses the word bitch or ho.  Or is his vocabulary really that limited?

You have to work within the legal perameters if you expect to be taken seriously.  Breaking someone's jaw and then claiming...she slapped me as a defense...is no defense at all.

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Garak on Jul 09, 2007, 10:11 AM
Who Me,

You have ignored all of my posts and have ignored what we have all said "THE LAWS ARE STACKED AGAINST MEN." Why?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: . on Jul 09, 2007, 10:14 AM
Dr. E....  Calling Dr. E.....  Please intervene and shut this bitch up, Dr. E....
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 09, 2007, 10:17 AM
Quote
Reading what I'm reading here says very loudly that you have not utilized the legal system...


Quote
If you do not work within the system...


Quote
You have to work within the legal perameters if you expect to be taken seriously.


HOGWASH!  There is no equal justice, equal protection, equal rights for men or Fathers within America's legal system as proven by the Stalinist:

#Violence Against Women Act,
# Sexual Harassment Law,
# Misandrist family law system
# Title IX,
# taxpayer funded women's commissions (but no men's commissions - except one in N.H.),
# taxpayer funded women's studies programs, (but no men's studies programs)
# etc., etc., etc.


(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/Biz/FeministTrainedCourtsCanNeverKnowJu.jpg)

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/WorkingTheDomesticViolenceScamPoste.jpg)

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/b9ac2319.jpg)

What man in his right mind would ever "work within the system" after seeing the way men are treated in cases like the Mary Winkler case, or the Duke LaCrosse case, etc., etc., etc.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 10:23 AM

Who Me,

You have ignored all of my posts and have ignored what we have all said "THE LAWS ARE STACKED AGAINST MEN." Why?



I'm not ignoring it.  I realize that the domestic abuse laws in some states are stacked.  But you have to work within the system to change that situation.

Upping the violence like Gonzo had described is self defeating.  It feeds into every stereotype your movement aims to change.

That was my point.

But then now you have members bragging about committing perjury as if that is an accomplishment.  Hey, if the truth doesn't work try a lie?  Is that the kind of mindset you guys have opted to use?

Of course I guess you could conteract that by acting like all charges of abuse are false?  Something else that is self defeating.  

Have you ever heard the saying, "Clean up around your own backdoor before pointing out the problems with mine?"

It applies here very well.

If you want truth to be the standard; employ it.

If you want abuse to be treated seriously; do that.  Don't downplay it or say she probably deserved it if you do not want the same treatment in return.

Changing laws works.  Ignoring them and acting like you can bully people into seeing things your way does not.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Mr. X on Jul 09, 2007, 10:26 AM

You have to work within the legal perameters if you expect to be taken seriously.  Breaking someone's jaw and then claiming...she slapped me as a defense...is no defense at all.


Sorry that doesn't work. The system IS stacked against men. Even the principle that the police must arrest the other person from the one who called the police is unfair since women will call the police first. Women are just flat out believed. Look at the LaCrosse case. Only after a year and hundreds of thousands of dollars did those boys get free and all based on the word of one drugged up woman with a crappy story.

Sorry WM but the system doesn't work for men. It is biased against men. That is why a slap followed by a broken jaw will really screw a guy over. In fact, the use of the system to bully men is the same disproportionality as using size and strength to break a jaw for a slap. How is that any different than tossing a husband in jail for talking back. Mary Winkler butchers her husband in cold blood for legitimately questioning her about her poor money handling and she gets off with a DV cry of victimization. Again disproportionality at work. Should she not get the same punishment as she dished out? Do we shoot jay walkers? Do we beat little kids to death for stealing a pack of gum? Do we murder a 7 month old fetus simply cause it inconvienences the mother?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Virtue on Jul 09, 2007, 10:30 AM
The system needs to be utterly destroyed and rebuilt from the ground up.....the system is the enemy not the people who are part of it.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: . on Jul 09, 2007, 10:31 AM
I'll tell you one thing...  The laws against violating someone's privacy need to be tested against the laws prohibiting battery and assault, particularly when the batterers are women.  Those two laws are in conflict.

If you can secretly videotape a woman going off her rocker and beating the living hell out of anyone (husband, kids, anyone), you may be violating a privacy law but legitimacy is on your side.  Surveillance is the answer when even reporting one's abuser will put one in jail.  You have to be able to "prove your innocence," the way Soviet citizens were expected to do under Stalin.  Surveillance can do that.

DontMakeHerMad.com (http://www.dontmakehermad.com/)
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 09, 2007, 10:35 AM
Quote
I'm not ignoring it.  I realize that the domestic abuse laws in some states are stacked.


Congratulations!!!

You just won the euphemism award of the new millennium for understating and glossing over the glaring truth that, in every state in America, and in every western country on earth,


(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/DVAwarenessMonth/PA300027a.jpg)

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/DVAwarenessMonth/PA300025a.jpg)
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 10:37 AM
Yeah, if you have nothing to say why say anything.

If you are only able to post little pictures and snide remarks; what do you contribute to the debate?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 10:40 AM


You have to work within the legal perameters if you expect to be taken seriously.  Breaking someone's jaw and then claiming...she slapped me as a defense...is no defense at all.


Sorry that doesn't work. The system IS stacked against men. Even the principle that the police must arrest the other person from the one who called the police is unfair since women will call the police first. Women are just flat out believed. Look at the LaCrosse case. Only after a year and hundreds of thousands of dollars did those boys get free and all based on the word of one drugged up woman with a crappy story.

Sorry WM but the system doesn't work for men. It is biased against men. That is why a slap followed by a broken jaw will really screw a guy over. In fact, the use of the system to bully men is the same disproportionality as using size and strength to break a jaw for a slap. How is that any different than tossing a husband in jail for talking back. Mary Winkler butchers her husband in cold blood for legitimately questioning her about her poor money handling and she gets off with a DV cry of victimization. Again disproportionality at work. Should she not get the same punishment as she dished out? Do we shoot jay walkers? Do we beat little kids to death for stealing a pack of gum? Do we murder a 7 month old fetus simply cause it inconvienences the mother?


I agree with you completely about Mary Winkler.  She is the poster child for exactly what we are discussing.

Why not go to the state legislatures?  You know, the guy that pass laws for the various states?

The majority of them are men just in case you didn't know.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 09, 2007, 10:41 AM
snide remarkds...aint you the one who tried to imply that a man defending himself  phsyuically is  trying to "be big and bad???"
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: . on Jul 09, 2007, 10:46 AM
Why not go to the state legislatures?  You know, the guy that pass laws for the various states?

The majority of them are men, just in case you didn't know.


Obviously you're referring to the Old Boys Club, the group of mostly male legislators and power brokers who set up the anti-male laws in the first place.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 10:47 AM

snide remarkds...aint you the one who tried to imply that a man defending himself  phsyuically is  trying to "be big and bad???"


Go back and read Gonzo's post on that subject.  Read it carefully and then try being very honest...do you think it accomplishes anything other than proving how big and bad someone is?

The poll is a funny touch.  Someone disagrees, they must be a troll and must be banned.

Alternative viewpoints should just be ignored. :laughing6:
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 09, 2007, 10:50 AM
Quote
Changing laws works.


That's an enormous lie when it comes to the Violence Against Women Act (VAWA) and many other "gender feminist" laws in Amerika today.  In Amerika today, men and Fathers are experiencing nothing short of the new Jim Crow gender "separate but equal" legal stucture, wherein women get protection, privileges and pampering, while men get persecution and plundering.  Women who commit the same crimes as men get special services and programs, while men get sentences and prison.  Women who merely allege they are battered get the doors opened to the bountiful billions contained in the Violence Against Women Act (VAWA), while innocent men who are beaten by their wives or girlfriends, get scorn, corrupt prosecution and further abuse and battering from Amerika's evil legal system.  The facts don't lie.  Death is the ultimate indicator of oppression, counter to all the lies taught in taxpayer funded woMEN's stuDIEs on college and university campuses.

The next time somebody tells you "Go to hell," just tell them, "It's no problem.  I'm already a man living in Amerika."

Quote
Men are:  

99.999% of American combat deaths and casualties (historically)
http://thewall-usa.com/information.asp
http://thewall-usa.com/women.asp
http://www.cwc.lsu.edu/other/stats/warcost.htm

97%+ since the 1st Gulf War (DOD)
http://www.icasualties.org/oif/female.aspx
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf
http://www.cwc.lsu.edu/other/stats/warcost.htm

"The numbers of wounded women and female amputees, meanwhile, are considerably less than their male counterparts--at least 378 wounded versus 17,490; 11 amputees versus over 400--but they are historic for modern day warfare."
http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2755/context/archive

A Pentagon study published in March on the mental health of soldiers returning from deployment to Iraq and Afghanistan found that more than one- third of U.S. soldiers received psychological counseling. A statistic buried in the study: 23.6 percent of women reported a mental health concern compared with 18.6 percent of men.
http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2755/context/archive

(currently, women are not even required by law to register for selective service, but even retarded or physically disabled men are, in addition to all the healthy ones)
94% of industrial deaths and accident (NIOSH)
(Even though murder is the leading workplace cause of death for women, a statistic often used by gender feminists, that number is only a percentage of the 6% of workplace deaths that women comprise.  In other words, "a fraction of a small fraction.")
76% of homicides DOJ
80% of Suicides CDC

# Suicide took the lives of 30,622 people in 2001 (CDC 2004).
# Suicide is the eighth leading cause of death for all U.S. men (Anderson and Smith 2003).
# Of the 24,672 suicide deaths reported among men in 2001, 60% involved the use of a firearm (Anderson and Smith 2003).
http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/suifacts.htm
24,672 / 30,622 = .8056952
(or in other words, over 80% of all suicide deaths in 2001 were male)

also:
http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec15/ch205/ch205a.html
"Suicide ranks 11th among causes of death in the US, with 30,622 completed suicides in 2001. It is the 3rd leading cause of death among people 15 to 24 yr. Men ≥ 75 yr have the highest rate of death by suicide. Among all age groups, male deaths by suicide outnumber female deaths by 4:1."


The other most common suicide victims are divorced and/or estranged fathers like Derrick Miller. In fact, a divorced father is ten times more likely to commit suicide than a divorced mother, and three times more likely to commit suicide than a married father. According to Los Angeles divorce consultant Jayne Major:
"Divorced men are often devastated by the loss of their children. It's a little known fact that in the United States men initiate only a small number of the divorces involving children. Most of the men I deal with never saw their divorces coming, and they are often treated very unfairly by the family courts."
http://www.glennsacks.com/distraught_fathers_courthouse.htm


A woman is the party filing for divorce in about 75% of divorce cases.
Women receive custody in about 75% of child custody cases.

Paternity fraud is rampant in the U.S.
30% of those named as fathers - bilked of child support unjustly
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48871

Of the top fifteen leading causes of death by disease, men lead in 12 categories, are tied in two and trail in one.  Even though more women die of heart disease each year, men die of heart disease many years earlier.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/finaldeaths03_tables.pdf

93% of the prison population is male with over 60% having no High School education.   America has now passed Russia as the country that has the largest percentage of its population incarcerated, yet we still claim to be the freest country on earth.

173 wrongly convicted people have been exonerated by DNA evidence since the beginning of the Innocence Project.

172 of the wrongly convicted were men.

Most of them had charges of rape against them.

One attorney estimates that there are between 20,000 and 100,000 wrongly convicted still in prison.

We hear a lot about the historical oppression of women's voting rights, but no woman who was born in the 20th century was every without the right to vote in her lifetime, upon reaching legal voting age.  On the other hand, over 2400 hundred California men (42% of CA men killed in Vietnam) gave their life for their country without being allowed by their country to vote.  Four of the twelve Iwo Jimo flag raisers died for their country without their country ever allowing them the right to vote.  
http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/archive/a-b/blumhorst/2005/blumhorst052805.htm

If you do a full count on all the men in the 20th century who died for their country without being allowed to vote the numbers will be staggering.

In America there are over 270 women's commissions, but only one for men in New Hampshire.

There are over 700 Women's Studies programs on colleges and universities throughout the United States teaching thousands or tens of thousands of classes from the gender feminist perspective, but not one program or class teaching men's studies from the masculist perspective.

Men are a significant percentage of domestic violence (26% of intimate partner homicides), yet are denied service at most tax payer funded domestic violence shelters. In contrast, women get every veteran's benefit a man does, yet comprise less than 3% of combat deaths or casualties and a woman makes the cover of Time magazine (person of the year/2003 standing in front of two men.
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Dec2003/200312225a.jpg

It appears to me American men are routinely treated like 2nd class citizens in their own country.  CDC lists male victims of domestic violence at more than 34%, but men injured in Iraq (and all other men) are by law in California excluded from domestic violence shelter services. They would have a lot of trouble getting in a CA shelter if some evening the littel misses puts a frying pan to their head.


Someone online pointed out in a post that some people say breast cancer is a greater concern in women than prostate cancer in men based on reported deaths overall.  Are we considering that men today die on average 6 years sooner than women?  I read somewhere that around 1920 the death rates were roughly equal.  The death rates for prostate and breast cancer are similar, but because men die of other things more frequently-accidents ,war, heart disease etc., there are fewer men left to die of prostate cancer.  "This would be akin to saying people from a nation like Zimbabwe are immune to Alzheimer's- but in fact they die of other things before they can get old enough to contract Alzheimer's."

Spending Gap:

http://www.amazon.com/Pocketbook-Power-Hearts-Coveted-Consumer/dp/0071418601/sr=1-1/qid=1167804358/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-6478055-3977644?ie=UTF8&s=books
or
http://tinyurl.com/sf342
Pocketbook Power: How to Reach the Hearts and Minds of Today's Most Coveted Consumer - Women
Bernice Kanner
From the Back Cover
Not too long ago, legendary adman David Ogilvy chided his peers for talking down to women. He berated those who ignored women or discounted them, misconstruing men's higher paychecks to mean greater spending clout. And he was right. According to the Bureau of Economic Analysis, women--who comprise just over 51 percent of the U.S. population, making them the largest consumer segment in the country--control six trillion dollars in buying power annually. Statistics show that women make 88 percent of all U.S. retail purchases. Some experts even predict that, by 2020, women will control most of the money in America.
Women control 88 percent of all purchases. Women handle 75 percent of family finances. 43 percent of those with assets over $500,000 are women. One out of every 11 women in America owns a business. Women influence two out of every three of the 3 trillion dollars spent in the U.S. each year!
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 09, 2007, 10:51 AM
yes I do.........I think that if someone is acting out by use of physical force(especially a smaller weaker individueal), then you have not only a right but an obligation to use physical force(hopefully with some restraint...............as I have repeatedly said, I dont think she should get rodney king'd for a slap)
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 10:52 AM

Why not go to the state legislatures?  You know, the guy that pass laws for the various states?

The majority of them are men, just in case you didn't know.


Obviously you're referring to the Old Boys Club, the group of mostly male legislators and power brokers who set up the anti-male laws in the first place.


Yeah, you are probably right.  Ignore the laws.  Lie for men that you know are guilty of abuse.  Back the brothers no matter if they are wrong or right.  They must be better because they are males.

This brand of mindset is what has you spinning your wheels.

Why try something new when you can assure yourself of failure?

Success is not the goal.  Bellyaching is.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 09, 2007, 10:53 AM
why are you the one doing  all the bitching then who mule?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: . on Jul 09, 2007, 10:55 AM

Yeah, you are probably right.  Ignore the laws.  Lie for men that you know are guilty of abuse.  Back the brothers no matter if they are wrong or right.  They must be better because they are males.

This brand of mindset is what has you spinning your wheels.

Why try something new when you can assure yourself of failure?

Success is not the goal.  Bellyaching is.


We are lobbying the state legislatures:
1.  California Alliance for Families and Children (http://www.cafcusa.org/)
2.  National Family Violence Legislative Resource Center (http://www.nfvlrc.org/)
3.  True Equality Network (http://www.trueequality.com/)
4.  Safe Homes for Children and Families Coalition (http://www.vawa4all.org/)

Meanwhile, we talk in Internet forums about the injustice we're experiencing.  You are trying to shut us up, by telling us to redirect our energy toward an effort that is already ongoing.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 09, 2007, 10:56 AM
Quote
Yeah, if you have nothing to say why say anything.

If you are only able to post little pictures and snide remarks; what do you contribute to the debate?


Considering it is you who have only foolish contentions and snide remarks, it appears you are having trouble defending your inane contentions when confronted with the facts.  As far as contributing to the debate, it appears the little troll is giving herself/himself far too much credit for the foolishness, nonsense and insults she/he is spewing.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 10:57 AM


Yeah, you are probably right.  Ignore the laws.  Lie for men that you know are guilty of abuse.  Back the brothers no matter if they are wrong or right.  They must be better because they are males.

This brand of mindset is what has you spinning your wheels.

Why try something new when you can assure yourself of failure?

Success is not the goal.  Bellyaching is.


We are lobbying the state legislatures:
1.  California Alliance for Families and Children (http://www.cafcusa.org/)
2.  True Equality Network (http://www.trueequality.com/)
3.  Safe Homes for Children and Families Coalition (http://www.vawa4all.org/)

Meanwhile, we talk in Internet forums about the injustice we're experiencing.  You are trying to shut us up, by telling us to redirect our energy toward an effort that is already ongoing.


Those are good starts and please point out where I've tried to silence anyone.

I'm the one that is putting up with the childish name calling and stupid cartoons.  Have you seen me stoop to such?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 11:00 AM

why are you the one doing  all the bitching then who mule?


See here is an example of the childish name calling.  I've not said a thing that should garner this brand of response but it looks like some people just can not pull themselves out of the gutter long enough to discuss.

So far I've been calling a feminist, a bitch, a ho, and now a mule and for what?  Saying that bullying gets you nowhere.

Something you should have learned before 1st grade.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 09, 2007, 11:01 AM
Quote
Why not go to the state legislatures?  You know, the guy that pass laws for the various states?

The majority of them are men, just in case you didn't know.


What a foolish and unfactual thing to say.  Here is who controls and owns the state government in California today.

http://sinet2.sen.ca.gov/womenscaucus/history.htp

http://sinet2.sen.ca.gov/womenscaucus/members.htp


Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: . on Jul 09, 2007, 11:01 AM
...please point out where I've tried to silence anyone.


Certainly:

Quote
Success is not the goal.  Bellyaching is.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 11:04 AM

Quote
Why not go to the state legislatures?  You know, the guy that pass laws for the various states?

The majority of them are men, just in case you didn't know.


What foolish and unfactual thing to say.  Here is who controls and owns the state government in California today.

http://sinet2.sen.ca.gov/womenscaucus/history.htp

http://sinet2.sen.ca.gov/womenscaucus/members.htp





You do understand there are 49 other states?

California, although the residents seem to enjoy the fantasy; is not the center of the legal, or cultural universe.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 11:05 AM

...please point out where I've tried to silence anyone.


Certainly:

Quote
Success is not the goal.  Bellyaching is.



It does appear you are unable to deal with the context.

So dishonesty is a favored tool of yours or would you prefer to deal with me on a very honest level.

You can bellyache all you want.  Did I say you couldn't?  I did say it was self-defeating.  But if that's your goal you are right on point.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: . on Jul 09, 2007, 11:06 AM


Quote
Why not go to the state legislatures?  You know, the guy that pass laws for the various states?

The majority of them are men, just in case you didn't know.


What foolish and unfactual thing to say.  Here is who controls and owns the state government in California today.

http://sinet2.sen.ca.gov/womenscaucus/history.htp

http://sinet2.sen.ca.gov/womenscaucus/members.htp





You do understand there are 49 other states?

California, although the residents seem to enjoy the fantasy; is not the center of the legal, or cultural universe.


Oh for Christ sake!  You are saying that because we've established a beach head in California, we should stop discussing our injustices ("bellyaching") until we have a presence in all 50 states?

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 11:12 AM



Quote
Why not go to the state legislatures?  You know, the guy that pass laws for the various states?

The majority of them are men, just in case you didn't know.


What foolish and unfactual thing to say.  Here is who controls and owns the state government in California today.

http://sinet2.sen.ca.gov/womenscaucus/history.htp

http://sinet2.sen.ca.gov/womenscaucus/members.htp





You do understand there are 49 other states?

California, although the residents seem to enjoy the fantasy; is not the center of the legal, or cultural universe.


Oh for Christ sake!  You are saying that because we've established a beach head in California, we should stop discussing our injustices ("bellyaching") until we have a presence in all 50 states?




No, I'm just saying it accomplishes nothing.

Has the bellyaching proved to be successful?

Injustices happen to a variety of people.  Men are not alone in it.

I have noticed that when a story is posted with a male victim he gets lots of understanding and compassion.  Well, as long as the perpetrator is a female.

I've also noticed that when it's a female victim with a male perpetrator there are plenty of she asked for it, that bitch, and comments of that sort.

To the average reader it would look like you (very general term) are not looking for justice or equality.  If you take the attitude that a brother can never be wrong don't expect much support.

Bullying will not work. 
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 09, 2007, 11:15 AM
Quote
We are lobbying the state legislatures:
1.  California Alliance for Families and Children
2.  National Family Violence Legislative Resource Center
3.  True Equality Network
4.  Safe Homes for Children and Families Coalition

Meanwhile, we talk in Internet forums about the injustice we're experiencing.  You are trying to shut us up, by telling us to redirect our energy toward an effort that is already ongoing.



Many other notable efforts are underway as well.  Here are a few:

http://www.ncfmla.org/
http://www.ncfmla.org/our_projects_and_activities.html

http://www.californiamenscenters.org/

http://www.mediaradar.org/

http://www.f4j.com/index.php?id=ca

http://www.acfc.us/

http://michigandemocrat.typepad.com/michigandemocratnet/2007/07/hb-4564-those-w.html
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 11:17 AM

Quote
We are lobbying the state legislatures:
1.  California Alliance for Families and Children
2.  National Family Violence Legislative Resource Center
3.  True Equality Network
4.  Safe Homes for Children and Families Coalition

Meanwhile, we talk in Internet forums about the injustice we're experiencing.  You are trying to shut us up, by telling us to redirect our energy toward an effort that is already ongoing.



Many other notable efforts are underway as well.  Here are a few:

http://www.ncfmla.org/
http://www.ncfmla.org/our_projects_and_activities.html

http://www.californiamenscenters.org/

http://www.mediaradar.org/

http://www.f4j.com/index.php?id=ca

http://www.acfc.us/

http://michigandemocrat.typepad.com/michigandemocratnet/2007/07/hb-4564-those-w.html


And just think you didn't have to beat up a single person to achieve that.

And working within the system you claim is so stacked against you.

Whoday thunk it?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 09, 2007, 11:20 AM
Quote
I'm the one that is putting up with the childish name calling and stupid cartoons.


Actually, you are engaging in name calling as evidenced by the "stupid" comment above, when in fact the graphics are factual and not "stupid."  Shame on you.  It looks to me like you need to get yourself to a batterers intervention program for serious counseling for your abusiveness.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 09, 2007, 11:26 AM
Quote
No, I'm just saying it accomplishes nothing.

Has the bellyaching proved to be successful?

Injustices happen to a variety of people.  Men are not alone in it.

I have noticed that when a story is posted with a male victim he gets lots of understanding and compassion.  Well, as long as the perpetrator is a female.

I've also noticed that when it's a female victim with a male perpetrator there are plenty of she asked for it, that bitch, and comments of that sort.

To the average reader it would look like you (very general term) are not looking for justice or equality.  If you take the attitude that a brother can never be wrong don't expect much support.

Bullying will not work.


And do you with your great egalitarian sense of magnanimity also go to misandrist, gender feminist sites and confront them for doing this type of thing to a far, far greater degree, or do you just come here to SYG to practice a select hypocrisy?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 09, 2007, 11:33 AM
Quote
No, I'm just saying it accomplishes nothing.


And what exactly have you specifically accomplished to alleviate the gender feminist pogrom against men that is going on in Amerika today?  What efforts have you even made to alleviate the gender feminist injustices against males, and the many consequent sufferings and deaths?

Please list them.

Additionally, what is the purpose of all your postings here?  What are you trying to accomplish?  Please be specific.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 11:33 AM

Quote
No, I'm just saying it accomplishes nothing.

Has the bellyaching proved to be successful?

Injustices happen to a variety of people.  Men are not alone in it.

I have noticed that when a story is posted with a male victim he gets lots of understanding and compassion.  Well, as long as the perpetrator is a female.

I've also noticed that when it's a female victim with a male perpetrator there are plenty of she asked for it, that bitch, and comments of that sort.

To the average reader it would look like you (very general term) are not looking for justice or equality.  If you take the attitude that a brother can never be wrong don't expect much support.

Bullying will not work.


And do you with your great egalitarian sense of magnanimity also go to misandrist, gender feminist sites and confront them for doing this type of thing to a far, far greater degree, or do you just come here to SYG to practice a select hypocrisy?


Oh you pulled out the bold font.  That makes it very accurate I guess.

I came here because I feel men get the short end of the stick in family court.  Too many children are growing up minus Dad.

But it appears none of that is important.  You guys are so eaten up with hatred for anything female that it just doesn't matter.

You can't see the issue for the hatred.

I can't help but wonder if I've stumbled up on a site populated with gays that are angry that women cut in on their action.

Hatred is a useless tool.  Stretching and skewing numbers that you feel favor you while ignoring those that do not gets you nowhere.

And no, I didn't call anyone a name.  I said the comments were childish and vindictive.  Can you honestly read over the things that have been posted in this thread and not see them?  Or is your perception so skewed that it is beyond you to see it?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Garak on Jul 09, 2007, 11:36 AM
Who Me,

We are working to change the laws but that won't happen until we raise public awareness and change a few (alot actually) minds about the "status quo". Boards like this one (the internet in general) allow us to reach alot of people all over the world. Once again, lawmakers want votes so we must change the minds of alot of people to sway the lawmakers. Lawmakers do not truly care about equality...they care about votes to secure their job.

We try to vote for politicians who support true equality (not the femized version of it) but to be honest there aren't many out there that are actually electable.

We HAVE to change the hearts and minds of the masses and the internet is a wonderful tool. You say that lawmakers are mostly male (meaning that men are in control) but if you can admit a pro-female bias in the laws they make then you can't really claim they are in the so called "Patriarchy". Women have long manipulated men to get their way, women even brag about such....do you deny this? Why are politicians any different?

As for the effectiveness of the Men's Rights Movement....it has been effective..look around...men are refusing to marry, refusing to have children (ie, celebacy or protection) and men trust women alot less today than they used to. These are the effect of the TRUTH coming out or from men seeing it in their lives and coming to find sites like this one.


Dr. E,

        Who Me may be a troll but she is also an opportunity. We want women to listen to us as they are the ones with the political power these days (through male legislators, media, etc..) so banning her would solve nothing.

Just my opinion of course, it is your board.  :greener:

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 09, 2007, 11:43 AM
Quote
And just think you didn't have to beat up a single person to achieve that.

And working within the system you claim is so stacked against you.

Whoday thunk it?


Your patronizing and impertinent tone strikes me as "bullying," when in fact all the accomplishments from the links above are small indeed, compared to the plethora of injustices and cruelties heaped on men and Fathers today in gender feminist Amerika.  

Furthermore, your reference to not having to "beat up a single person" is a snide, libelous insinuation that is both a lie and IMO, a reflection of a despicableness that falsely attacks innocent others.  Shame on you, and again I suggest you seek batterers intervention for your abusive behavior.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: . on Jul 09, 2007, 11:46 AM
"Who Me" has perfected the fine art of anti-male shaming tactics.  Accusations that she is being bullied, insinuations that violence in self-defense (against a woman's violent attack) is itself abusive, calling men on this board "woman haters", calling men on this board homosexual...

Read it up...  She's the poster child:

(http://www.dontmakehermad.com/images/icons/pdf_small.gif) The Catalog of Anti-Male Shaming Tactics (http://www.dontmakehermad.com/resources/discussion/menforjustice.net/The%20Catalog%20of%20Anti-Male%20Shaming%20Tactics.pdf)
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 09, 2007, 11:47 AM

Not chivalry. Just years at the hand of bullies in my youth. I'm not defending women, I'm defending smaller, weaker people.


And I have had years of little men feeling free to yap at the mouth and shove and push and get aggressive who are the first to cry "Pick on someone your own size" if they get called on it.

They're bullies too.  Worse - they are also pussies.

Quote
And you are the one mixing apples and oranges. The discussion was about a slap paid back with a broken jaw not a "whomping". Yeah if a 130lb man "whomped" on someone then they should get whomped back. But you explicitly talked about breaking a jaw for a slap. So does a broken leg go with an accidental elbowing? A black eye for a pat on the back?


Physical violence of a non permanent maiming nature met with similar violence.  I have seen a 110 pound woman smack a man in the jaw, knock out teeth, and break it, and her not even versed in the martial arts.  Yes - it is proportional.  Yes, it is reasonable.  Yes, anyone who assaults someone physically deserves to get assaulted back - and if you use a weapon, you deserve to be killed.

We're not talking a jostle, a bump, or any other bullshit.  YOU brought that in.  A deliberate assault met with a retaliation, and let the chips fall where they may.

Don't want it?  Don't start it.

If you start it - take your lumps, and don't be a whiner.

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 11:49 AM

Who Me,

We are working to change the laws but that won't happen until we raise public awareness and change a few (alot actually) minds about the "status quo". Boards like this one (the internet in general) allow us to reach alot of people all over the world. Once again, lawmakers want votes so we must change the minds of alot of people to sway the lawmakers. Lawmakers do not truly care about equality...they care about votes to secure their job.

We try to vote for politicians who support true equality (not the femized version of it) but to be honest there aren't many out there that are actually electable.

We HAVE to change the hearts and minds of the masses and the internet is a wonderful tool. You say that lawmakers are mostly male (meaning that men are in control) but if you can admit a pro-female bias in the laws they make then you can't really claim they are in the so called "Patriarchy". Women have long manipulated men to get their way, women even brag about such....do you deny this? Why are politicians any different?

Dr. E,

        Who Me may be a troll but she is also an opportunity. We want women to listen to us as they are the ones with the political power these days (through male legislators, media, etc..) so banning her would solve nothing.

Just my opinion of course, it is your board.  :greener:




Not a troll although it does look like anyone that is deemed to be female by the group and is not in complete lockstep is considered to be one.

Interesting.  A site that is put together that allows no alternative views?  Hey like you said it's his board if he chooses to ban me because I have a bit of a different slant that's his call to make.  But if you guys are unable to debate on a civil level utilizing a medium as nonintrusive as this; it does make me wonder how are you going to handle real life debate.  You might be shocked that people may not see everything the way you want and may even disagree on key points.

What then?  Ban them maybe?

Education and raising public awareness of course is key.  One thing I see you guys need to overcome is the need that so many men have to paint a man that is suffering from the abuse by their spouse as wimps.  That stigma is one of the reasons the police behave as they do when answering a call initiated by a man.  It's much more comfy for them to believe, oh this couldn't happen to me, what's wrong with you?

I want to think you Pen for the honest and civil conversation that you have set forth.  You are one of the few I've encountered so far that is able to do it.

It is voices like yours that will make an impact.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 09, 2007, 11:49 AM
Quote
But it appears none of that is important.  You guys are so eaten up with hatred for anything female that it just doesn't matter.


You paint with a very broad brush when you stereotype "you guys" as characterizing all of us.  I know gender feminists and other communists are unable to see individuals because of their need to think of individuals as irrelevant in terms of the great, grand "collective."  It appears you practice that same prejudice and bigotry as they, or are your comments just a reflection of the typical, despicable, garden variety bigot's?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Garak on Jul 09, 2007, 11:51 AM


Quote
No, I'm just saying it accomplishes nothing.

Has the bellyaching proved to be successful?

Injustices happen to a variety of people.  Men are not alone in it.

I have noticed that when a story is posted with a male victim he gets lots of understanding and compassion.  Well, as long as the perpetrator is a female.

I've also noticed that when it's a female victim with a male perpetrator there are plenty of she asked for it, that bitch, and comments of that sort.

To the average reader it would look like you (very general term) are not looking for justice or equality.  If you take the attitude that a brother can never be wrong don't expect much support.

Bullying will not work.


And do you with your great egalitarian sense of magnanimity also go to misandrist, gender feminist sites and confront them for doing this type of thing to a far, far greater degree, or do you just come here to SYG to practice a select hypocrisy?


Oh you pulled out the bold font.  That makes it very accurate I guess.

I came here because I feel men get the short end of the stick in family court.  Too many children are growing up minus Dad.

But it appears none of that is important.  You guys are so eaten up with hatred for anything female that it just doesn't matter.

You can't see the issue for the hatred.

I can't help but wonder if I've stumbled up on a site populated with gays that are angry that women cut in on their action.

Hatred is a useless tool.  Stretching and skewing numbers that you feel favor you while ignoring those that do not gets you nowhere.



It isn't hatred for females you see, it is frustration with females who support a system that is harming society (men, women and children).

Many of us are here because we experienced the injustices in the family court system but it goes deeper than that. We also know that feminism is a hate movement and it is hard to counter with logic....we do try though...yes...sometimes we get frustrated trying to talk logic to an emotionally charged crowd.

We are tired of the double standards when it comes to everything from employment to domestic violence to family court and so on. Feminism has literally saturated our society and it treats men with such disrespect in every aspect of manhood. We also know that feminism is socially engineering society by kicking men out of childrens lives leaving only female influence. How does this affect future generations? Stop and think and when you came here downplaying violence against men you stepped on a few toes...hopefully you can understand why. Women can hit us and we aren't allowed to defend ourselves but to make matters worse....when the stats come out...they are downplayed so we don't even get the advantage of the truth.

Try to understand.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 11:52 AM

"Who Me" has perfected the fine art of anti-male shaming tactics.  Accusations that she is being bullied, insinuations that violence in self-defense (against a woman's violent attack) is itself abusive, calling men on this board "woman haters", calling men on this board homosexual...

Read it up...  She's the poster child:

(http://www.dontmakehermad.com/images/icons/pdf_small.gif) The Catalog of Anti-Male Shaming Tactics (http://www.dontmakehermad.com/resources/discussion/menforjustice.net/The%20Catalog%20of%20Anti-Male%20Shaming%20Tactics.pdf)


I haven't claimed you are bullying me.  My skin is as thick as it gets.  This is just one of many forums within which I debate.

Read back and context is important although it may not be your friend.  I was referring to Gonzo's hit 'em much harder diatribe.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 09, 2007, 11:52 AM

For beginners I'm not a feminist.  I do find it interesting that you try so hard to push labels when someone challenges you.


Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.

Quote
It's also interesting that you admit to lying under oath and then complain about false allegations.  So it's a good thing when you do it, you even wave it around like a badge of honor; but you want to complain if a female does it?


Whatever it takes.  Only a fool fights fair when someone else isn't.
Quote

Then to top it off you are unable to post without name calling.  Like I said, if you represent this movement you guys can expect a bad result.  You have to be able to bring it up a knotch or two on an intellectual and emotional level.  Middle school tactics should stay in middle school.  They have little value beyond the 8th grade.


:crybaby2:

Cry me a river.

Quote
If you do not work within the system you can expect to find that it works against you.  But I do get the impression you enjoy complaining about what you see as inequities than actually trying to do anything to improve the situation.


I do better.

I work the system, and game the hell out of it.

I'm independently well off, do as I please, have no significant debt, and am not beholden to woman nor government for what I do next.

You?  How's your statist government worship doing for ya?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 11:54 AM

Quote
But it appears none of that is important.  You guys are so eaten up with hatred for anything female that it just doesn't matter.


You paint with a very broad brush when you stereotype "you guys" as characterizing all of us.  I know gender feminists and other communists are unable to see individuals because of their need to think of individuals as irrelevant in terms of the great, grand "collective."  It appears you practice that same prejudice and bigotry as they, or are your comments just a reflection of the typical, despicable, garden variety bigot's?



Yeah, your posts have been so civil haven't they.

There have only been a few that have been able to converse on a civil level.

The broad brush use of "you guys" refers to the ones that do not have the capability of debate or civil discourse.

Does it fit you?

Go back, read your posts and check out your little cartoons and then make that call for yourself.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 09, 2007, 11:57 AM


Why not go to the state legislatures?  You know, the guy that pass laws for the various states?

The majority of them are men, just in case you didn't know.


Obviously you're referring to the Old Boys Club, the group of mostly male legislators and power brokers who set up the anti-male laws in the first place.


Yeah, you are probably right.  Ignore the laws.  Lie for men that you know are guilty of abuse.  Back the brothers no matter if they are wrong or right.  They must be better because they are males.

This brand of mindset is what has you spinning your wheels.

Why try something new when you can assure yourself of failure?

Success is not the goal.  Bellyaching is.


I'm getting success.

All politics is local, honey.  All I have to do is back my brothers at home, and have them pay it forward.

Yes, indeedy-do, you CAN tear down Massa's house with Massa's tools.

See, you are operating under the mistaken premise that anyone believes the system worthy of the dignity of reform.  I don't.  I believe it irredeemably corrupt.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 09, 2007, 11:58 AM
Quote
"Who Me" has perfected the fine art of anti-male shaming tactics.  Accusations that she is being bullied, insinuations that violence in self-defense (against a woman's violent attack) is itself abusive, calling men on this board "woman haters", calling men on this board homosexual...

Read it up...  She's the poster child:

The Catalog of Anti-Male Shaming Tactics


Thanks John.  That's excellent stuff.  I think what you have posted actually alludes to this, however, as we go into the Presidential political season, I think we can expect to see more of these type of tactics.  If we look as Saul Allinisky's Rules for Radicals, we see that ridicule is a prime tool of radicals such as radical feminists.

http://www.semcosh.org/AlinskyTactics.htm
Quote
The fourth rule is: Make the enemy live up to their own book of rules. You can kill them with this, for they can no more obey their own rules than the Christian church can live up to Christianity.

The fourth rule carries within it the fifth rule: Ridicule is man's most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counterattack ridicule. Also it infuriates the opposition, who then react to your advantage.


Note:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17388372/
Quote
WELLESLEY, Mass. - The senior thesis of Hillary D. Rodham, Wellesley College class of 1969, has been speculated about, spun, analyzed, debated, criticized and defended. But rarely has it been read, because for the eight years of Bill Clinton's presidency it was locked away.

As forbidden fruit, the writings of a 21-year-old college senior, examining the tactics of radical community organizer Saul D. Alinsky, have gained mythic status among her critics -- a "Rosetta Stone," in the words of one, that would allow readers to decode the thinking of the former first lady and 2008 presidential candidate.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 09, 2007, 11:59 AM

To the average reader it would look like you (very general term) are not looking for justice or equality.  If you take the attitude that a brother can never be wrong don't expect much support.


He certainly can be wrong.

Given how corrupt the system is, though, he certainly gets the benefit of the doubt until it is proven he is wrong.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 09, 2007, 12:01 PM
I can't help but wonder if I've stumbled up on a site populated with gays that are angry that women cut in on their action.


And no, I didn't call anyone a name.


Oh, the irony...
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 09, 2007, 12:03 PM
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Interesting.  A site that is put together that allows no alternative views?


Now who's "out of context?"  You are still freely posting your views, yet you've accused this site of not allowing alternate views.  Hmmm.  Could it be you are having problems accepting/allowing others views that are not like your own?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 12:04 PM



Quote
No, I'm just saying it accomplishes nothing.

Has the bellyaching proved to be successful?

Injustices happen to a variety of people.  Men are not alone in it.

I have noticed that when a story is posted with a male victim he gets lots of understanding and compassion.  Well, as long as the perpetrator is a female.

I've also noticed that when it's a female victim with a male perpetrator there are plenty of she asked for it, that bitch, and comments of that sort.

To the average reader it would look like you (very general term) are not looking for justice or equality.  If you take the attitude that a brother can never be wrong don't expect much support.

Bullying will not work.


And do you with your great egalitarian sense of magnanimity also go to misandrist, gender feminist sites and confront them for doing this type of thing to a far, far greater degree, or do you just come here to SYG to practice a select hypocrisy?


Oh you pulled out the bold font.  That makes it very accurate I guess.

I came here because I feel men get the short end of the stick in family court.  Too many children are growing up minus Dad.

But it appears none of that is important.  You guys are so eaten up with hatred for anything female that it just doesn't matter.

You can't see the issue for the hatred.

I can't help but wonder if I've stumbled up on a site populated with gays that are angry that women cut in on their action.

Hatred is a useless tool.  Stretching and skewing numbers that you feel favor you while ignoring those that do not gets you nowhere.



It isn't hatred for females you see, it is frustration with females who support a system that is harming society (men, women and children).

Many of us are here because we experienced the injustices in the family court system but it goes deeper than that. We also know that feminism is a hate movement and it is hard to counter with logic....we do try though...yes...sometimes we get frustrated trying to talk logic to an emotionally charged crowd.

We are tired of the double standards when it comes to everything from employment to domestic violence to family court and so on. Feminism has literally saturated our society and it treats men with such disrespect in every aspect of manhood. We also know that feminism is socially engineering society by kicking men out of childrens lives leaving only female influence. How does this affect future generations? Stop and think and when you came here downplaying violence against men you stepped on a few toes...hopefully you can understand why. Women can hit us and we aren't allowed to defend ourselves but to make matters worse....when the stats come out...they are downplayed so we don't even get the advantage of the truth.

Try to understand.


Try to understand that I wasn't trying to downplay anything.

But when the numbers are as lopsided as they are and the movement refuses to hold men that do abuse to a standard but instead make excuses for the behavior; then they should not be shocked to get the same treatment in return.

The stats that Dr de is it? posted clearly show that men are most commonly assaulted by other men.  Refusal to deal with that glaring fact does nothing to curtail abuse in any direction.  

When you hear and read statements made by men cheering on another man that has beaten a woman senseless while supplying them with excuses why do you think females will cheer also?

Someone actually asked me in this thread if someone had to die for abuse to be taken seriously.  He failed to see that people do die as a result of domestic violence.  The majority of those dying are women and children.  That doesn't seem important though; they are just women and children.

Abuse should not be tolerated or cheered.  It doesn't matter what the gender of the victim or the perpetrator.  Abuse is wrong.

For generations the pendulum was swinging in favor of men's rights.  Women's rights were an afterthought at best.  Now it has swung in the opposite direction.  It needs to be centered.

But it's not going to happen as long as everyone holds on to this us and them mentality.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 12:06 PM

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Interesting.  A site that is put together that allows no alternative views?


Now who's "out of context?"  You are still freely posting your views, yet you've accused this site of not allowing alternate views.  Hmmm.  Could it be you are having problems accepting/allowing others views that are not like your own?


No I was talking about the cute little poll. :laughing6:
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 09, 2007, 12:07 PM
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One thing I see you guys need to overcome is the need that so many men have to paint a man that is suffering from the abuse by their spouse as wimps.


I have not observed that here.  It's always possible I missed something so please post any example you find.  If so, such sentiments are certainly the exception, not the rule on this site, IMO,  as a significant number of men who've posted here have been battered by their wives, but out of gentlemanly conduct did not respond in kind.  Such has been the chivalrous role conditioning of many, many men in America.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 09, 2007, 12:07 PM
Read back and context is important although it may not be your friend.  I was referring to Gonzo's hit 'em much harder diatribe.


I recommend "A Book of Five Rings"  Vegetius, Sun Tzu "The Art of War," Machiavelli's "The Art of War," "The Prince," "The Discourses from Livy;" Von Clausewitz's "On War," And Patton's "War as I Knew It."
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 09, 2007, 12:09 PM

The majority of those dying are women and children. 


The majority of those killing children are Women.  Matter of fact, the vast and overwhelming majority.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 12:15 PM


The majority of those dying are women and children. 


The majority of those killing children are Women.  Matter of fact, the vast and overwhelming majority.


Yes I realize that.  Have I said anything to the contrary.

Notice something else, I'm not going to cheer for them and I would never lie for them either.

Some of us have a real moral code that we live by.  Other's pretend while lying under oath.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: bachelor tom on Jul 09, 2007, 12:17 PM
Feminists who parrot arguments like Who Me's are either delusional idealists or cynical totalitarian wannabes.  In either case they have zero credibility.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 12:20 PM

Quote
One thing I see you guys need to overcome is the need that so many men have to paint a man that is suffering from the abuse by their spouse as wimps.


I have not observed that here.  It's always possible I missed something so please post any example you find.  If so, such sentiments are certainly the exception, not the rule on this site, IMO,  as a significant number of men who've posted here have been battered by their wives, but out of gentlemanly conduct did not respond in kind.  Such has been the chivalrous role conditioning of many, many men in America.


There is life outside of the board.  I have managed to see and experience a few things in my 51 year of life.

I've heard the comments that men make about other men that are abused by their spouse.

I also know what the reaction is when you bring up a subject like male and male rape.

The so called men's rights activist get strangly silent.

It's a cultural thing.  Men have been taught they are the providers and protecters.  When something happens that puts that identity in crisis; many men will avoid the man experiencing the crisis as if it's catching or something.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 09, 2007, 12:21 PM
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I want to think you Pen for the honest and civil conversation that you have set forth.  You are one of the few I've encountered so far that is able to do it.

It is voices like yours that will make an impact.


Your comments appear to be seeking to divide, not unite, males to stand against the gender feminist tyranny that plagues us all.  We are not a homogonous group that all fell out of some cookie cutter cast, but a divergent groups of individual males, many with dissimilar views to a greater or lesser degree.  Our differences could be divisive to us as a group, if divisive people come here and try to use our differences to drive a wedge between us.

In much sound counsel is wisdom, largely because we don't all think alike or expect others to all think alike - like communists, cultural Marxists and radical feminists do.  People can have many different opinions with out the need for a collective right, making everyone not thinking the same - wrong.

Here's one thing that most of the guys who post on this site do, coincidently, have in common:

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/a408cca2.jpg)
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Virtue on Jul 09, 2007, 12:22 PM
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Some of us have a real moral code that we live by.


10 to one says she cant even define the word morality
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 09, 2007, 12:22 PM
Some of us have a real moral code that we live by.  Other's pretend while lying under oath.


And then there are those of us who fight to actually win, and be a winner, than a loser who consoles themselves with how "noble" they are.

I know who I'd rather have in my corner in a tight spot.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 09, 2007, 12:24 PM
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Yeah, your posts have been so civil haven't they.

There have only been a few that have been able to converse on a civil level.

The broad brush use of "you guys" refers to the ones that do not have the capability of debate or civil discourse.

Does it fit you?

Go back, read your posts and check out your little cartoons and then make that call for yourself.


Yes, my posts have been civil to a fault, unless you just can't handle the truth, which I am beginning to suspect maybe the case more than anything.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Garak on Jul 09, 2007, 12:25 PM
Quote
Try to understand that I wasn't trying to downplay anything.


It looked that way and it is common for the media to downplay or simply not report mens issues. Look at the headline....Even though mothers are abused less...they are mentioned FIRST and are also mentioned first in the article. Could it be because society as a whole cares more about abuse towards women than it does about abuse towards men?

If the numbers were higher for women it would still put mothers ahead of fathers..wouldn't it? In virtually every aspect mothers are put above fathers. So many in this society see fathers as worthless to the development of a child, apparently the courts do as well. This is a problem and it start with acknowledging that men are abused by women too....especially pregnant women having mood swings. There is literally no excuse for a man to hit a woman but a woman does not need a reason to do it and pregnancy just makes it even more "ok".

Quote
But when the numbers are as lopsided as they are and the movement refuses to hold men that do abuse to a standard but instead make excuses for the behavior; then they should not be shocked to get the same treatment in return.

The stats that Dr de is it? posted clearly show that men are most commonly assaulted by other men.  Refusal to deal with that glaring fact does nothing to curtail abuse in any direction.  


Men do hold men accountable for abuse...those male lawmakers, those male police officers, those male judges...need I go on? Mandatory arrest laws that usually put men in jail even if THEY are the victim and especially if they defended themselves. Raising your voice is a form of domestic violence so to put it in perspective...a woman can (and they do) beat the shit out of a man and he cannot raise his arm to block her attack nor can he even raise his voice. He can leave but if he takes the children the police will be called and it is likely he will go to jail and he may even be charged with kidnapping. His choices are to sit and take it or leave without the kids. Either way, he loses. You must see this in your own experiences.

As for men abusing other men, you bet and most of the time it is probably over a female. That doesn't mean SHE put the man up to it but surely you won't deny that women can and do manipulate men to turn against each other. I have had it happen to me. I calmly explained to the man that she was just trying to use him to get back at me but that doesn't always work. Men have always defended women which is why it is so easy for women to manipulate men. Female manipulation combined with all the power women have these days is a disastorous.

Quote
When you hear and read statements made by men cheering on another man that has beaten a woman senseless while supplying them with excuses why do you think females will cheer also?


Men do not cheer when other men kill women or mutilate women and very seldom when men beat up women. Women though, do say "you go girl" when a man is mutilated or killed cause for women...self defense always works as an excuse.

Quote
Someone actually asked me in this thread if someone had to die for abuse to be taken seriously.  He failed to see that people do die as a result of domestic violence.  The majority of those dying are women and children.  That doesn't seem important though; they are just women and children.


I asked that actually. Men also die in DV situations and usually because women use the excuse "he is bigger so I can use a weapon". It's just that when that happens other women (and men) cheer and say he deserved it.

Quote
Abuse should not be tolerated or cheered.  It doesn't matter what the gender of the victim or the perpetrator.  Abuse is wrong.


Agreed

Quote
For generations the pendulum was swinging in favor of men's rights.  Women's rights were an afterthought at best.  Now it has swung in the opposite direction.  It needs to be centered.

But it's not going to happen as long as everyone holds on to this us and them mentality.


Since it was men who helped feminism take control....I think the ball is in your court to help us now that you see it has gone too far. The "us and them" mentality is why feminism works so talk to the feminists abou that...they force us to fight the battle this way.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Virtue on Jul 09, 2007, 12:25 PM
Every time your pour logic on her argument and watch it dissolve she responds with emotional diatribe. 
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 12:34 PM

Quote
I want to think you Pen for the honest and civil conversation that you have set forth.  You are one of the few I've encountered so far that is able to do it.

It is voices like yours that will make an impact.


Your comments appear to be seeking to divide, not unite, males to stand against the gender feminist tyranny that plagues us all.  We are not a homogonous group that all fell out of some cookie cutter cast, but a divergent groups of individual males, many with dissimilar views to a greater or lesser degree.  Our differences could be divisive to us as a group, if divisive people come here and try to use our differences to drive a wedge between us.

In much sound counsel is wisdom, largely because we don't all think alike or expect others to all think alike - like communists, cultural Marxists and radical feminists do.  People can have many different opinions with out the need for a collective right, making everyone not thinking the same - wrong.

Here's one thing that most of the guys who post on this site do, coincidently, have in common:

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/a408cca2.jpg)


I'm not trying to drive a wedge between anyone.  Are you always this paranoid?

The little cartoons are cute, nonproductive but cute.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 09, 2007, 12:35 PM
Quote
Quote

Quote

Interesting.  A site that is put together that allows no alternative views?


Quote from: Men's Rights Activist on Today at 02:03:01 PM  
Now who's "out of context?"  You are still freely posting your views, yet you've accused this site of not allowing alternate views.  Hmmm.  Could it be you are having problems accepting/allowing others views that are not like your own?



No I was talking about the cute little poll.  :laughing6:


Nice try, but you are clearly wrong, and arrogantly so.  You were not "talking about that cute little poll" in the quotation I cited as that quotation was clearly from a post you made before the "cute little pole" you are citing.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 12:35 PM

Some of us have a real moral code that we live by.  Other's pretend while lying under oath.


And then there are those of us who fight to actually win, and be a winner, than a loser who consoles themselves with how "noble" they are.

I know who I'd rather have in my corner in a tight spot.


So the ends justify the means?

Do you hold that opinion when those means are used against you or do you scream foul?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: . on Jul 09, 2007, 12:44 PM

So the ends justify the means?

Do you hold that opinion when those means are used against you or do you scream foul?


Are you saying that conforming to the legal process is a higher priority to you than a man's actual innocence?  Because that is the hypothetical we're speaking about here, someone who is falsely accused by a woman as a divorce/breakup tactic, defending themselves against a system stacked against them.  A system that presumes their guilt, and expects proof of innocence.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 12:47 PM

Quote
Try to understand that I wasn't trying to downplay anything.


It looked that way and it is common for the media to downplay or simply not report mens issues. Look at the headline....Even though mothers are abused less...they are mentioned FIRST and are also mentioned first in the article. Could it be because society as a whole cares more about abuse towards women than it does about abuse towards men?

If the numbers were higher for women it would still put mothers ahead of fathers..wouldn't it? In virtually every aspect mothers are put above fathers. So many in this society see fathers as worthless to the development of a child, apparently the courts do as well. This is a problem and it start with acknowledging that men are abused by women too....especially pregnant women having mood swings. There is literally no excuse for a man to hit a woman but a woman does not need a reason to do it and pregnancy just makes it even more "ok".

Quote
But when the numbers are as lopsided as they are and the movement refuses to hold men that do abuse to a standard but instead make excuses for the behavior; then they should not be shocked to get the same treatment in return.

The stats that Dr de is it? posted clearly show that men are most commonly assaulted by other men.  Refusal to deal with that glaring fact does nothing to curtail abuse in any direction.  


Men do hold men accountable for abuse...those male lawmakers, those male police officers, those male judges...need I go on? Mandatory arrest laws that usually put men in jail even if THEY are the victim and especially if they defended themselves. Raising your voice is a form of domestic violence so to put it in perspective...a woman can (and they do) beat the shit out of a man and he cannot raise his arm to block her attack nor can he even raise his voice. He can leave but if he takes the children the police will be called and it is likely he will go to jail and he may even be charged with kidnapping. His choices are to sit and take it or leave without the kids. Either way, he loses. You must see this in your own experiences.

As for men abusing other men, you bet and most of the time it is probably over a female. That doesn't mean SHE put the man up to it but surely you won't deny that women can and do manipulate men to turn against each other. I have had it happen to me. I calmly explained to the man that she was just trying to use him to get back at me but that doesn't always work. Men have always defended women which is why it is so easy for women to manipulate men. Female manipulation combined with all the power women have these days is a disastorous.

Quote
When you hear and read statements made by men cheering on another man that has beaten a woman senseless while supplying them with excuses why do you think females will cheer also?


Men do not cheer when other men kill women or mutilate women and very seldom when men beat up women. Women though, do say "you go girl" when a man is mutilated or killed cause for women...self defense always works as an excuse.

Quote
Someone actually asked me in this thread if someone had to die for abuse to be taken seriously.  He failed to see that people do die as a result of domestic violence.  The majority of those dying are women and children.  That doesn't seem important though; they are just women and children.


I asked that actually. Men also die in DV situations and usually because women use the excuse "he is bigger so I can use a weapon". It's just that when that happens other women (and men) cheer and say he deserved it.

Quote
Abuse should not be tolerated or cheered.  It doesn't matter what the gender of the victim or the perpetrator.  Abuse is wrong.


Agreed

Quote
For generations the pendulum was swinging in favor of men's rights.  Women's rights were an afterthought at best.  Now it has swung in the opposite direction.  It needs to be centered.

But it's not going to happen as long as everyone holds on to this us and them mentality.


Since it was men who helped feminism take control....I think the ball is in your court to help us now that you see it has gone too far. The "us and them" mentality is why feminism works so talk to the feminists abou that...they force us to fight the battle this way.



You are still trying your best to identify me as a feminist.  I do believe in equal rights for both genders so if that makes me a feminist so be it.

As a hard core Daddy's girl you will find that I'm the last person you will ever hear saying that men are useless when it comes to children.  Demanding that child chooses between a mother and father is like asking them which leg do they prefer to keep.  Both legs equal good balance.  There are aspects and experiences that a father brings to a child's life that a mother can not.  By the same token there are aspects and experiences that a mother brings into a child's life that a father can not.  When one parent is missing from the equation the other can not make that up to the child.

In my opinon the courts have forgotten the best interests of the child and instead have exchanged that idea for what is politically correct in the view of some.

The women's rights movement was something that needed to happen when it did.  Without it I would not have the right to do what it is I do for a living.  Without it I would not have been able to move up the ladder careerwise.

The playing field has been levelled in the career world and in the world of education.  But there is a huge mountain when it comes to parental rights and responsibility.

Also as time has moved on and as women have entered the work world in the numbers that we now see...women are changing.  We now read about violent crimes perpetrated by females that we would have not seen 30 years ago.  Women have become more agreesive in order to compete in the workforce.

The problem is, it has carried over into the home and has found its way into the family structure.  But the courts do not deal with this violence on equal terms.

The family court is the biggest of offenders in this area.  In my opinion it needs to be a real focus.

No child should ever have to choose between father and mother as long as both parents are fit to raise the child.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 12:48 PM

Every time your pour logic on her argument and watch it dissolve she responds with emotional diatribe. 


I'm not emotional at all.

But your little comments are adorable.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 12:51 PM


So the ends justify the means?

Do you hold that opinion when those means are used against you or do you scream foul?


Are you saying that conforming to the legal process is a higher priority to you than a man's actual innocence?  Because that is the hypothetical we're speaking about here, someone who is falsely accused by a woman as a divorce/breakup tactic, defending themselves against a system stacked against them.  A system that presumes their guilt, and expects proof of innocence.


If someone is completely innocent; why the need to lie under oath?

I was commenting on Gonzo bragging about doing just that.  It wasn't a hypothetical.

But no, I would not lie under oath.  Maybe you do not take an oath as a serious thing?

So are you implying that a moral code is something you can just set asside?  So the ends justify the means?

Is that the message?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 09, 2007, 12:55 PM
Quote
But when the numbers are as lopsided as they are and the movement refuses to hold men that do abuse to a standard but instead make excuses for the behavior; then they should not be shocked to get the same treatment in return.

The stats that Dr de is it? posted clearly show that men are most commonly assaulted by other men.  Refusal to deal with that glaring fact does nothing to curtail abuse in any direction.  

When you hear and read statements made by men cheering on another man that has beaten a woman senseless while supplying them with excuses why do you think females will cheer also?

Someone actually asked me in this thread if someone had to die for abuse to be taken seriously.  He failed to see that people do die as a result of domestic violence.  The majority of those dying are women and children.  That doesn't seem important though; they are just women and children.

Abuse should not be tolerated or cheered.  It doesn't matter what the gender of the victim or the perpetrator.  Abuse is wrong.

For generations the pendulum was swinging in favor of men's rights.  Women's rights were an afterthought at best.  Now it has swung in the opposite direction.  It needs to be centered.

But it's not going to happen as long as everyone holds on to this us and them mentality.


When you go to a d.v. conference and hear gender feminists tell you that "all" those 440 male victims of intimate partner homicide were batterers you get an idea of the magnitude of the problem.

When all men are denied access to domestic violence shelter and services in states like CA you get an idea of the magnitude of the problem.

Why is all this happening?  Answer:  So lying, evil gender feminists running the domestic violence industry can get the statistics to get more money to batter and arrest more men, to get more money to batter and arrest more men, ad nauseum, ad infinitum.

I have heard from several very reliable sources of gender feminists advocating for more I.P. violence from women against men at an International Family Violence Conf. in San Diego one year.  Statistics based on such an evil system as the one presently supplying the crime stats means very little in light of the fact that men are being abused and not getting the services that they deserve, the services that women get.  In the early 90's, before VAWA, men and women were dying of IPV at equal rates.  Surprising, since VAWA, the number of men being killed has gone down.  If men got the same services as women, when they felt like killing their spouses, I suspect the numbers would be equal again so it is time for the evil, gender feminist, Amerikan government to STOP waging their hate war against men before any further talk of accountability and responsibility for domestic violence is talked about.  Give men the same services as women now and the gender feminists out of the domestic violence industry.  The real people responsible for the murders of so many women are the gender feminist bigots running the domestic violence industry so go tell them to accept responsibility for lying about domestic violence and not working to solve the problems based on the truth.  I have heard a report of a prominent gender feminist in the d.v. industry say, "Women are not violent enough."  She advocated women need to get more violent, and why not, as Mary Winkler proved, women can get away with killing their spouses.  And the d.v. industry just considers all men batterers.  Women will never ever be equal or free from domestic violence until men have ALL the same privileges, and pampering, and rights, and protections that women do.  So when are you going to start working to end domestic violence against women by ending all the fraud and lies that exist in today's domestic violence industry in Amerika?  That's the place where the most serious problems exist.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Mr. X on Jul 09, 2007, 12:56 PM

I agree with you completely about Mary Winkler.  She is the poster child for exactly what we are discussing.

Why not go to the state legislatures?  You know, the guy that pass laws for the various states?

The majority of them are men just in case you didn't know.


Yes and I acknowledge and have stated on this board several times that a part of men's problems are caused by these men. Angel wing earning losers who wish to sell the rest of us guys out so they can get some man merit badge from women who don't care about them. I agree part of the problem is men not treating women as equals and pedistalizing them. But I also acknowlegde that women's groups pressure judges and prosecutors. A lot of the pressure in the Duke case was from women's groups pushing the failed stereotype that women never lie about rape. In the Winkler case and with the Yates case, women's groups pressured as well. With Yates women's groups pressured for her not to get the death penalty citing Post Pardum Psychosis as some legit illness.

Yes there are angel wing earners who make it harder for men and I curse those male succophants to hell but I also see that women pressure these men using the age old notion that men wish to please women to their benefit. Similar to using a boyfriend to do all the fighting for you.

In most cases women actually perform more evil than men. What is worse, the person who commits the bad act or the puppet master one step removed who manipulates the situation knowing the outcome is unfairness or violence? Is it the pit bull who mauls someone that's bad or the owner who doesn't call it off or encourages it to attack.


Quote from: who me?
If someone is completely innocent; why the need to lie under oath?

That similar to "Why do you need privacy if you have nothing to hide." or "All suspects are guilty or they wouldn't be suspect."

What I am amazed about is how feminists have horrific blockage of history and the effects of oppressive governments. They acknowledge women's oppression but ignore that the components of oppression are the things being violated by the courts today. Guilty till proven innocent. Abolsihment of privacy. Suspect based on the word of someone belonging to a priviledged class. Those are all things that women suffered under. So why back it now? Women's history won't be any different than men's. You'll have or have had your own Stalins, Hitlers, Kim Jung Ils, Mao and worse, you'll ignore history and welcome them with open arms.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Virtue on Jul 09, 2007, 12:57 PM
Quote
Every time your pour logic on her argument and watch it dissolve she responds with emotional diatribe.

I'm not emotional at all.

But your little comments are adorable.


Adoration is an emotion Cupcake.

Almost every argument you have made has been logically and irrefutably torn down  by multiple members here.  Yet you refuse to acknowledge this.......your not debating your being contrary and expecting to get away with it because you have a pussy.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 01:03 PM


I agree with you completely about Mary Winkler.  She is the poster child for exactly what we are discussing.

Why not go to the state legislatures?  You know, the guy that pass laws for the various states?

The majority of them are men just in case you didn't know.


Yes and I acknowledge and have stated on this board several times that a part of men's problems are caused by these men. Angel wing earning losers who wish to sell the rest of us guys out so they can get some man merit badge from women who don't care about them. I agree part of the problem is men not treating women as equals and pedistalizing them. But I also acknowlegde that women's groups pressure judges and prosecutors. A lot of the pressure in the Duke case was from women's groups pushing the failed stereotype that women never lie about rape. In the Winkler case and with the Yates case, women's groups pressured as well. With Yates women's groups pressured for her not to get the death penalty citing Post Pardum Psychosis as some legit illness.

Yes there are angel wing earners who make it harder for men and I curse those male succophants to hell but I also see that women pressure these men using the age old notion that men wish to please women to their benefit. Similar to using a boyfriend to do all the fighting for you.

In most cases women actually perform more evil than men. What is worse, the person who commits the bad act or the puppet master one step removed who manipulates the situation knowing the outcome is unfairness or violence? Is it the pit bull who mauls someone that's bad or the owner who doesn't call it off or encourages it to attack.


I would say the evil is a 50/50 split.  Men are not inherrantly evil but then niether are women.

Here again, the use of the us and them mentality.  First of all we are human.

The Duke case was pushed by a racial agenda first and foremost.  I don't remember lots of women's groups (although I have to admit I don't keep up with them), but I do remember Jackson and Sharpton stirring the pot pretty good.  The Duke case was a political tool used by a corrupt DA.  Had the man not been running for office it would not have gone as far as it did.

Yates and Winkler I do not excuse or support so why keep bringing them up?  If you want to match criminals we can do that.

Name a female criminal and I'll name a male.  Is that the game you want to play?

It accomplishes nothing.  But I guess if makes for fun wordplay.

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 09, 2007, 01:05 PM
Quote
I'm not trying to drive a wedge between anyone.  Are you always this paranoid?

The little cartoons are cute, nonproductive but cute.


I'm not the least bit paranoid, just making observations based on behavior as I did for decades when working with personnel, but I do once again question your impertinent and patronizing communication.

Who set you up as the judge of what is "stupid," or "cute," or "nonproductive" without further qualifications or supporting input?  

As others have pointed out your behavior follows closely the behavior I have observed many gender feminists engaging in, based on the Marxist/Stalinist model.

If it walks like a gender feminist, if it talks like a gender feminist - quack.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 01:07 PM

Quote
But when the numbers are as lopsided as they are and the movement refuses to hold men that do abuse to a standard but instead make excuses for the behavior; then they should not be shocked to get the same treatment in return.

The stats that Dr de is it? posted clearly show that men are most commonly assaulted by other men.  Refusal to deal with that glaring fact does nothing to curtail abuse in any direction.  

When you hear and read statements made by men cheering on another man that has beaten a woman senseless while supplying them with excuses why do you think females will cheer also?

Someone actually asked me in this thread if someone had to die for abuse to be taken seriously.  He failed to see that people do die as a result of domestic violence.  The majority of those dying are women and children.  That doesn't seem important though; they are just women and children.

Abuse should not be tolerated or cheered.  It doesn't matter what the gender of the victim or the perpetrator.  Abuse is wrong.

For generations the pendulum was swinging in favor of men's rights.  Women's rights were an afterthought at best.  Now it has swung in the opposite direction.  It needs to be centered.

But it's not going to happen as long as everyone holds on to this us and them mentality.


When you go to a d.v. conference and hear gender feminists tell you that "all" those 440 male victims of intimate partner homicide were batterers you get an idea of the magnitude of the problem.

When all men are denied access to domestic violence shelter and services in states like CA you get an idea of the magnitude of the problem.

Why is all this happening?  Answer:  So lying, evil gender feminists running the domestic violence industry can get the statistics to get more money to batter and arrest more men, to get more money to batter and arrest more men, ad nauseum, ad infinitum.

I have heard from several very reliable sources of gender feminists advocating for more I.P. violence from women against men at an International Family Violence Conf. in San Diego one year.  Statistics based on such an evil system as the one presently supplying the crime stats means very little in light of the fact that men are being abused and not getting the services that they deserve, the services that women get.  In the early 90's, before VAWA, men and women were dying of IPV at equal rates.  Surprising, since VAWA, the number of men being killed has gone down.  If men got the same services as women, when they felt like killing their spouses, I suspect the numbers would be equal again so it is time for the evil, gender feminist, Amerikan government to STOP waging their hate war against men before any further talk of accountability and responsibility for domestic violence is talked about.  Give men the same services as women now and the gender feminists out of the domestic violence industry.  The real people responsible for the murders of so many women are the gender feminist bigots running the domestic violence industry so go tell them to accept responsibility for lying about domestic violence and not working to solve the problems based on the truth.  I have heard a report of a prominent gender feminist in the d.v. industry say, "Women are not violent enough."  She advocated women need to get more violent, and why not, as Mary Winkler proved, women can get away with killing their spouses.  And the d.v. industry just considers all men batterers.  Women will never ever be equal or free from domestic violence until men have ALL the same privileges, and pampering, and rights, and protections that women do.  So when are you going to start working to end domestic violence against women by ending all the fraud and lies that exist in today's domestic violence industry in Amerika?  That's the place where the most serious problems exist.


You do understand that many of the women's shelters do not accept men because they are afraid the spouses the women are hiding from will try to pass themselves off as someone needing shelter?

The women's groups started the shelters on their own by raising money.  If I'm not totally off the mark the first was established in New England utilizing funds supplied by churches.

There is nothing keeping men's groups from doing the same thing.  Prove the need and the money will come.

Prove how many men are turned away each year.  It doesn't have to be an either/or when it comes to the funding.  Just prove the need.

Don't be surprised when the women's groups prove a greater need.  There are women and children that are turned away from overcrowded shelters everyday.  That is a fact you can expect to be brought forward.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 01:09 PM

Quote
I'm not trying to drive a wedge between anyone.  Are you always this paranoid?

The little cartoons are cute, nonproductive but cute.


I'm not the least bit paranoid, just making observations based on behavior as I did for decades when working with personnel, but I do once again question your impertinent and patronizing communication.

Who set you up as the judge of what is "stupid," or "cute," or "nonproductive" without further qualifications or supporting input?  

As others have pointed out your behavior follows closely the behavior I have observed many gender feminists engaging in, based on the Marxist/Stalinist model.

If it walks like a gender feminist, if it talks like a gender feminist - quack.


Yep, name calling is very productive isn't it? :dontknow:

Enjoy.  Do you feel better now?

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 01:11 PM

Quote
Every time your pour logic on her argument and watch it dissolve she responds with emotional diatribe.

I'm not emotional at all.

But your little comments are adorable.


Adoration is an emotion Cupcake.

Almost every argument you have made has been logically and irrefutably torn down  by multiple members here.  Yet you refuse to acknowledge this.......your not debating your being contrary and expecting to get away with it because you have a pussy.


No, but go with the feeling.

I see by your postings that you are linguistically limited at best.  So go with what you are good at; one liners.

Yep, does fit you well along with your choice of words. 
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Virtue on Jul 09, 2007, 01:20 PM
Completely predictable.   Next you will start with the attacks on sexuality ( your gay or you cant get laid) followed by your just all bitter......I can go on.....your bullshit is predictable because we have heard it so frequently.  Enjoy your pussy pass while it lasts.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 09, 2007, 01:22 PM
Quote
I would say the evil is a 50/50 split.  Men are not inherrantly evil but then niether are women.

Here again, the use of the us and them mentality.  First of all we are human.


I heartily agree with your first sentence.  As far as "us/them" I don't see any men's studies programs, or men's commissions using a gender agenda to lie about, batter and abuse the other gender.  Let's face it, the source of the evil gender feminist agenda is all those hundreds of taxpayer funded women's studies programs on college and university campuses teaching male bashing and male demonization 101, 102, 103, etc., etc., etc.

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/CSUN/P1010088a.jpg)

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/CSUN/P1010019a-1.jpg)

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/CSUN/P1010013a.jpg)


Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Mr. X on Jul 09, 2007, 01:23 PM

I would say the evil is a 50/50 split.  Men are not inherrantly evil but then niether are women.

Here again, the use of the us and them mentality.  First of all we are human.

The Duke case was pushed by a racial agenda first and foremost.  I don't remember lots of women's groups (although I have to admit I don't keep up with them), but I do remember Jackson and Sharpton stirring the pot pretty good.  The Duke case was a political tool used by a corrupt DA.  Had the man not been running for office it would not have gone as far as it did.

Yates and Winkler I do not excuse or support so why keep bringing them up?  If you want to match criminals we can do that.

Name a female criminal and I'll name a male.  Is that the game you want to play?

It accomplishes nothing.  But I guess if makes for fun wordplay.




But that is the point of this whole thread, to show that women commit evil at about the same rates as men, even more so given the fact that men usually have physical advantages in some ways. If men are say 1.5 times stronger than women on average then it would follow that men would commit 1.5 times more violence than women. But the stats show women are close to men in DV. That means womena re committing more DV than men given that men have a greater physical advantage.

You started arguing that it was MEN who commit the most amount of violent crimes way back on the second or third page. But clearly you accept that women commit violence as well as men and its not some 99 to 1 ratio. As you say, name a male criminal and I can name a female one. The point is I CAN DO THIS. That men are not the generic "bad guys" as you tried to state earlier when you brought up the stats about who commits the crimes.

We hear about those evil bad priests molesting boys and women's groups are all over the Catholic church tearing them apart even though it was shown the frequency of child molestation cases in the church were no more than the general public. Then BAM! all of a sudden the female teachers come out of the wood work. Again, for every male pedophile, I can now name a female one. I hardly think this is a new endemic situation and what's scary is, like the priest situation, tis been going on FOREVER. The only difference is society covered up the teacher cases because of the incorrect stereotype that women are angels and could never do such a thing.

As for Duke, there is plenty of news footage of women protesting the campus house demanding that a woman's word be believed. Also, have you ever watched Nancy Grace. There's a woman with a hard on for reasonable doubt ---- NOT.

What I am fighting is the stereotypes. The men-bad, women-good paradigm that is false. As you said, treat people as people. That means women lose all special priviledge. They are gray people like all the pother gray people shovelling coal like all the rest of us. If you do believe in "people are human" and "no teams" then all stereotypes and social rules like women never lie about rape have to be abolished.

Men only do worse than women cause they can physically. If women were bigger and stronger than men then we'd be the majority of abused people. Given the strong evidence of women performing over 60% of the child abuse in  this country, its pretty evident that when women are bigger and stronger than a child they can abuse children.

The real issue is power, not gender. People with power can abuse people with less power and sex doesn't matter.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: . on Jul 09, 2007, 01:27 PM
In order to "prove the need" for men and their kids to have shelters, you need to get statistics from the very shelters in whose interest it is to drive men away.  Their method is to classify men who seek help as batterers.  They also count the children of women as battered women, in order to increase their funding.  To "prove the need," you need these feminist-run shelters to divulge the facts.

Also, state legislatures have it written into their penal codes that domestic abuse is defined as a crime "against the woman," hence the need for the lawsuit in California (a ruling is now pending).  That lawsuit seeks redress in order to allow men's shelters to be set up, and receive matching funds just like women's shelters are.  Matching funds means that any donations that the shelter receives, the state will match them.  So you don't even need to "prove need," you just need to set up a shelter and start getting support.  You really only have to "prove that you're receiving financial support," and the state will match it.  But so far (under California state law, which may also be the case in other states),  only women's shelters are legally qualified to receive matching funds, because domestic violence is defined as a crime against the woman.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 01:34 PM

Quote
I would say the evil is a 50/50 split.  Men are not inherrantly evil but then niether are women.

Here again, the use of the us and them mentality.  First of all we are human.


I heartily agree with your first sentence.  As far as "us/them" I don't see any men's studies programs, or men's commissions using a gender agenda to lie about, batter and abuse the other gender.  Let's face it, the source of the evil gender feminist agenda is all those hundreds of taxpayer funded women's studies programs on college and university campuses teaching male bashing and male demonization 101, 102, 103, etc., etc., etc.



I've never taken any type of women's study type classes.  For that matter I don't even remember them being offered at the university I attended.  So I can not speak to the course content.  Have you ever read a syllabus for one of these classes or are you just telling me what you have read in articles? 

I do not see a need for them.  But then there are lots of classes offered on some university classes that hold no value beyond the professor being able to hit the required number of students to procure the funding for the class.

It is a numbers game plain and simple.  Get the numbers and the funding will come.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 09, 2007, 01:35 PM
Quote
If I'm not totally off the mark the first was established in New England utilizing funds supplied by churches.

There is nothing keeping men's groups from doing the same thing.  Prove the need and the money will come.

Prove how many men are turned away each year.  It doesn't have to be an either/or when it comes to the funding.  Just prove the need.

Don't be surprised when the women's groups prove a greater need.  There are women and children that are turned away from overcrowded shelters everyday.  That is a fact you can expect to be brought forward.


You appear to be ignorant of the history of the shelter movement and the way the gender feminist forces have worked through it to destroy men.

http://donrayadventures.blogspot.com/2006/05/most-remarkable-woman-in-twikenham.html

Quote
Before long, Erin opened the first domestic abuse shelter in the world.


Quote
Today, the shelter she created is still in operation, but it operates without its founder. In fact, they don't allow her to go near the shelter. The official history of the shelter does not include the name Erin Pizzey.

Erin Pizzey was able to find the seeds of domestic violence in the abusers -- she traced it back to their childhood. She traced it to abandonment of some sort.

And she came to believe that it could happen to little boys as well as little girls -- and both would grow up to abuse their partners -- physically or emotionally or both.

She says that when she suggested that men could be the victims of abusive female partners, she became the target of the women's movement. There was no room in the women's movement, she says, for any notion that women could do the things that those dastardly men did. She says the foundation of the women's movement evolved into an organized plan to label every man as someone who would eventually abuse his female partner.

It wasn't the philosophy she had adopted when she had joined the women's movement. She says she had been fighting for equality between the sexes, but the leaders of the movement chose an all out war against men.


and

Quote
There are other women who are crying "foul" -- psychologists, social workers, police officers, lawyers, judges, legislators and even women who run "battered women shelters" -- shelters they believe should be available to men who are living with abusive, violent and dangerous women.

Erin Pizzey and many other women who have worked to help victims of domestic violence believe that society has turned its back on men -- men who also need counseling, support and access to shelters so that they can escape the violence.

There's a bigger story -- several women have told me. It's about how the role and identify men has gotten lost in a movement that had good intentions -- but that somehow went astray. The real victims, they say, are the children who still witness abuse -- children who they say are likely to grow up to be abusers.

Men and women alike.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 09, 2007, 01:42 PM
Quote
Have you ever read a syllabus for one of these classes or are you just telling me what you have read in articles?


I have, and have read, their text books and have attended some of their on campus conferences among other, much wider exposure to them.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Virtue on Jul 09, 2007, 01:46 PM
Quote
Get the numbers and the funding will come.


Better Idea destroy the funding and then see what happens.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 01:48 PM


I agree with you completely about Mary Winkler.  She is the poster child for exactly what we are discussing.

Why not go to the state legislatures?  You know, the guy that pass laws for the various states?

The majority of them are men just in case you didn't know.


Yes and I acknowledge and have stated on this board several times that a part of men's problems are caused by these men. Angel wing earning losers who wish to sell the rest of us guys out so they can get some man merit badge from women who don't care about them. I agree part of the problem is men not treating women as equals and pedistalizing them. But I also acknowlegde that women's groups pressure judges and prosecutors. A lot of the pressure in the Duke case was from women's groups pushing the failed stereotype that women never lie about rape. In the Winkler case and with the Yates case, women's groups pressured as well. With Yates women's groups pressured for her not to get the death penalty citing Post Pardum Psychosis as some legit illness.

Yes there are angel wing earners who make it harder for men and I curse those male succophants to hell but I also see that women pressure these men using the age old notion that men wish to please women to their benefit. Similar to using a boyfriend to do all the fighting for you.

In most cases women actually perform more evil than men. What is worse, the person who commits the bad act or the puppet master one step removed who manipulates the situation knowing the outcome is unfairness or violence? Is it the pit bull who mauls someone that's bad or the owner who doesn't call it off or encourages it to attack.


Quote from: who me?
If someone is completely innocent; why the need to lie under oath?

That similar to "Why do you need privacy if you have nothing to hide." or "All suspects are guilty or they wouldn't be suspect."

What I am amazed about is how feminists have horrific blockage of history and the effects of oppressive governments. They acknowledge women's oppression but ignore that the components of oppression are the things being violated by the courts today. Guilty till proven innocent. Abolsihment of privacy. Suspect based on the word of someone belonging to a priviledged class. Those are all things that women suffered under. So why back it now? Women's history won't be any different than men's. You'll have or have had your own Stalins, Hitlers, Kim Jung Ils, Mao and worse, you'll ignore history and welcome them with open arms.



If you will recall what my first posts in this thread were about 62.5% of violence suffered by men was at the hands of other men.  Yet the focus is the 9.7% of the violent attacks on men perpetrated by women.

My point was that you can not scream about the small percentage on one side while ignoring the large percentage on the other and expect to be taken seriously.

I don't buy one gender being able to perpetrate more evil than the other whether by manipulation or force.  Surely you are not pushing the notion that men are unable to reason?

The way I see it each and every individual is repsonsible for their own actions.  Maybe it works to point at someone and say they made me do it when you are 6.  But barring a gun being put to your head...someone else can not force you to make stupid choices.  Those choices are made by the individual and the consequences for those actions should be accepted for them.

I'm not a big one for excuses.

And I don't watch Nancy Grace.  So any agenda she pushes is not even on my radar scope.

As far as the female teachers and the sexual abuse issue there.  They do not get my support.  Teachers have a special type of power over students.  After all they hold that grade right in their palms.  A teacher can make or break a student's educational career.  That puts them in a position of power that should not be abused for any reason.

I don't make excuses for teachers that rape students regardless of the gender of the victim or the rapist.

What I have noticed from other forums is when the teacher is attractive many of the male posters start with the "ata boy" type statements.  It is the women that will condemn the actions and the teacher.

That's not something I can help you with.  The only thing I get if I speak up is the "you don't understand the mind of a 14 year old boy.  I would have done that when I was 14."  That is angle only men can address to other men.  But I'm afraid it falls into the same category as the abused husband thing or the male on male rape thing.  There are some subjects that some men just can not discuss on an adult level.

Sexual abuse of a child should not be excused or ignored.  Anyone guilty of that most disgusting crime should be prosecuted to the fullest extent the law will allow.

And no I do not ignore history.  But thanks for assuming to know what I think.

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 09, 2007, 01:53 PM
Quote
For generations the pendulum was swinging in favor of men's rights.  Women's rights were an afterthought at best.


Hogwash!

Historically, men and women have both faced discrimination and oppression, but in different ways.  I would never, ever say women have had if worse than men.

Voting rights are just one example of the big, one sided gender lie being taught in women's studies courses on college campuses, then picked up in pop media and passed on as truth.

http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/archive/a-b/blumhorst/2005/blumhorst052805.htm
Remembering America's War Dead Who Never Had the Right to Vote

How many of these men went on to die for America without ever having the right to vote?

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/4b607149.jpg)

Do you think they are still just "stupid," "cute" "cartoons?"


Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Mr. X on Jul 09, 2007, 01:53 PM
Quote
It is a numbers game plain and simple.  Get the numbers and the funding will come.


Sorry but I don't see men as yet another chirping baby bird victim group demanding a worm from the grand mommy and daddy. Unlike SOME people, I think men accept that there isn't some endless pot of money somewhere and that being a spoiled demanding child is not a solution. Someone has to be the adult, the provider, the person who makes things happen. We know that ain't going to be women as long as they hold on to their victim status. Not everyone can be a chirping baby bird.

Replacing men with the government as sugar daddy is merely handing the leash from one owner to another. As an MRA I want women to lose the funding, lose the programs, lose the priviledge, lose the advantages and to be my equal. If women are equal to men then they don't need special programs or the goverment to "make things fair".

The object is to get rid of the mommy pig with teets not to add one more piggie to the dependant piggies.

Quote
My point was that you can not scream about the small percentage on one side while ignoring the large percentage on the other and expect to be taken seriously.


Like focusing on women not being CEOs but ignoring the 5 times more men who die on the job? Or ignoring the vast amount of men who do brutal, hard, dirty and tedious labor. Watch "The World's Dirtiest Jobs" on discovery. I didn't see a whole lot of women at the San Fransisco sewage treatment plant.

Yes part of my arguement is women do EXACTLY what you complain the men here do. They do this i a general sense as well. They focus on the very tiny minority of men who commit rape but ignore the men who build the vast amount of sky scrapers, bridges, dams, mines, air craft, cars etc. Nearly all the modern technology you have to day was also built BY MEN. But that appears to be ignored as well.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 01:54 PM

Quote
If I'm not totally off the mark the first was established in New England utilizing funds supplied by churches.

There is nothing keeping men's groups from doing the same thing.  Prove the need and the money will come.

Prove how many men are turned away each year.  It doesn't have to be an either/or when it comes to the funding.  Just prove the need.

Don't be surprised when the women's groups prove a greater need.  There are women and children that are turned away from overcrowded shelters everyday.  That is a fact you can expect to be brought forward.


You appear to be ignorant of the history of the shelter movement and the way the gender feminist forces have worked through it to destroy men.

http://donrayadventures.blogspot.com/2006/05/most-remarkable-woman-in-twikenham.html

Quote
Before long, Erin opened the first domestic abuse shelter in the world.


Quote
Today, the shelter she created is still in operation, but it operates without its founder. In fact, they don't allow her to go near the shelter. The official history of the shelter does not include the name Erin Pizzey.

Erin Pizzey was able to find the seeds of domestic violence in the abusers -- she traced it back to their childhood. She traced it to abandonment of some sort.

And she came to believe that it could happen to little boys as well as little girls -- and both would grow up to abuse their partners -- physically or emotionally or both.

She says that when she suggested that men could be the victims of abusive female partners, she became the target of the women's movement. There was no room in the women's movement, she says, for any notion that women could do the things that those dastardly men did. She says the foundation of the women's movement evolved into an organized plan to label every man as someone who would eventually abuse his female partner.

It wasn't the philosophy she had adopted when she had joined the women's movement. She says she had been fighting for equality between the sexes, but the leaders of the movement chose an all out war against men.


and

Quote
There are other women who are crying "foul" -- psychologists, social workers, police officers, lawyers, judges, legislators and even women who run "battered women shelters" -- shelters they believe should be available to men who are living with abusive, violent and dangerous women.

Erin Pizzey and many other women who have worked to help victims of domestic violence believe that society has turned its back on men -- men who also need counseling, support and access to shelters so that they can escape the violence.

There's a bigger story -- several women have told me. It's about how the role and identify men has gotten lost in a movement that had good intentions -- but that somehow went astray. The real victims, they say, are the children who still witness abuse -- children who they say are likely to grow up to be abusers.

Men and women alike.



Did I say men should be ignored?

Please quote where I did.

I did give you a basic blueprint on how to go about getting the funding.  Sorry it was lost on you.  But you seem to be more interested in doing the gottcha instead of discussing or debating anything.

Approach the need of the funding.  Go to charities and see if they will pitch in.  You maybe surprised.  But to push to shut down the women's shelters with the if I can't have it neither can you mindset is counter-productive.

It smacks of vindictiveness.  

Follow the blueprint that started the women's shelters.  It's has proved itself to be a success.

Why is that a problem?

You need to develop a can do attitude instead of this oh we can't do it thing.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 01:56 PM

Quote
Get the numbers and the funding will come.


Better Idea destroy the funding and then see what happens.


Funding for college?

You are kidding right?

Funding for stupid classes, yeah.  It should be kicked to the curb.  But the women's study type classes are just a few on a very long list.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 09, 2007, 01:56 PM
Quote
If you will recall what my first posts in this thread were about 62.5% of violence suffered by men was at the hands of other men.  Yet the focus is the 9.7% of the violent attacks on men perpetrated by women.

My point was that you can not scream about the small percentage on one side while ignoring the large percentage on the other and expect to be taken seriously.


Once again you leave out some very important stats that I know have been brought up,  but here they are graphically showing the very vioent side of women.

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/ChildFatalities2004.jpg)

Do you think they are still just "stupid," "cute" "cartoons?"
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 09, 2007, 01:59 PM

If someone is completely innocent; why the need to lie under oath?

I was commenting on Gonzo bragging about doing just that.  It wasn't a hypothetical.

But no, I would not lie under oath.  Maybe you do not take an oath as a serious thing?

So are you implying that a moral code is something you can just set asside?  So the ends justify the means?

Is that the message?


Absofuckinglutely.

This system you arte in such awe of has completely abrogated any claim to morality.  Any claim at all.  And in ways that are legion.

Yes ma'am.  I have done many things that skate on the edge of the law, jumped through loopholes, and even outright subverted a corrupt system designed to put men in lose-lose situations.  I have paid men as day laborers so they had money to buy Birthday presents for their kids.  I have let them stay rent free to give them time to get their act together.  I have let near ex wives who have taken restraining orders out on them know they are staying with me, wait for them to call when I KNOW they will, and then sent the cops after THEM - so their husbands get the kids.  I have helped police nail exes in drug stings.  I have held onto property for men so they HAVE it.

And fugginay right, I have lied.  When I watch a man get the snot beat out of him over and over, come out of his house bloody, and the fucking sheriffs pull up and start to arrest him, I have told them I saw it start, and her start it - because she always does.

I've paid for lawyers, paid bail, paid back child support for guys down on their luck.  I have spent thousands in money, goods, and time helping out my brothers.  Tens of thousands - maybe more.

You?  What the fuck have you done - besides run your mouth?

Because of my efforts there are a bunch of men who have their kids or access to them, who have a life, who have kept their property, and their sanity.  You?

And you know what?  Since there are kids who haven't had their Daddies ripped out of their life - I can live with that, and sleep soundly.  There is a greater good.  Without a doubt, those ends do indeed justify those means.

And if you value your precious "system" over that, your moral poverty is without bounds.  And you dare preach to me from your high perch?

Get your fingernails dirty for twenty or so years, then you might be worthy to dare toi criticize me.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 02:03 PM

Quote
For generations the pendulum was swinging in favor of men's rights.  Women's rights were an afterthought at best.


Hogwash!

Historically, men and women have both faced discrimination and oppression, but in different ways.  I would never, ever say women have had if worse than men.

Voting rights are just one example of the big, one sided gender lie being taught in women's studies courses on college campuses, then picked up in pop media and passed on as truth.

http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/archive/a-b/blumhorst/2005/blumhorst052805.htm
Remembering America's War Dead Who Never Had the Right to Vote

How many of these men went on to die for America without ever having the right to vote?


Do you think they are still just "stupid," "cute" "cartoons?"





They do take up a ton of screen space don't they and what do they accomplish?

Women did not have the right to vote in national elections before 1920.  They were not allowed to by part of a jury until 1939.  We had no control over land left to us by our husbands after they died until the late 1800's.  Maybe that isn't significant to you?  It is well documented history, not some fantasy.

Yeah, men had it tough but they did have basic legal rights.

Maybe you need to brush up on your history.  It needs just a bit of a tweek.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Mr. X on Jul 09, 2007, 02:03 PM
Quote
Did I say men should be ignored?

Please quote where I did.

I did give you a basic blueprint on how to go about getting the funding.  Sorry it was lost on you.  But you seem to be more interested in doing the gottcha instead of discussing or debating anything.

Approach the need of the funding.  Go to charities and see if they will pitch in.  You maybe surprised.  But to push to shut down the women's shelters with the if I can't have it neither can you mindset is counter-productive.

It smacks of vindictiveness.  

Follow the blueprint that started the women's shelters.  It's has proved itself to be a success.

Why is that a problem?

You need to develop a can do attitude instead of this oh we can't do it thing.


That actually won't work. For example, California and Seattle both have ordnances that prevent any state money from being used in men's shelters. Only two men's shelters exist in the US and both are privately funded. My tax money goes to benefit women, not men.

As for your repeated statesments of "get up and do something", that is what this board is here for. To educate men. To wake them up. To provide a place for them to go and see they are not alone. For them to wake up and stop selling themselves out for women. To get them to go out and demand equality.

So YES we are doing something. But it doesn't happen over night. Would you prefer torches in the streets and heads on posts?

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 09, 2007, 02:03 PM

Completely predictable.   Next you will start with the attacks on sexuality ( your gay or you cant get laid) followed by your just all bitter......I can go on.....your bullshit is predictable because we have heard it so frequently.  Enjoy your pussy pass while it lasts.


She already pulled that (http://standyourground.com/forums/index.php?topic=13627.msg149966#msg149966) a few pages back, AS I HAD FORESEEN. (http://standyourground.com/forums/index.php?topic=13627.msg149905#msg149905).

Never underestimate the power of the Dark Side.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 09, 2007, 02:04 PM
Quote
Did I say men should be ignored?

Please quote where I did.

I did give you a basic blueprint on how to go about getting the funding.  Sorry it was lost on you.  But you seem to be more interested in doing the gottcha instead of discussing or debating anything
.

You said to justify and document the need and I've more than pointed out to you that the entire domestic violence industry has been completely hijacked by radical feminists who fraudulently control the documentation.  Are you obtuse are just obdurate?  It is you who are clearly ignoring the valid needs of men, while trying to push a bogus agenda fraudulently attributing domestic violence to men.  Your insulting, patronizing communications are consistently abusive.

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/DVAwarenessMonth/PA160033a.jpg)
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 02:04 PM

Quote
It is a numbers game plain and simple.  Get the numbers and the funding will come.


Sorry but I don't see men as yet another chirping baby bird victim group demanding a worm from the grand mommy and daddy. Unlike SOME people, I think men accept that there isn't some endless pot of money somewhere and that being a spoiled demanding child is not a solution. Someone has to be the adult, the provider, the person who makes things happen. We know that ain't going to be women as long as they hold on to their victim status. Not everyone can be a chirping baby bird.

Replacing men with the government as sugar daddy is merely handing the leash from one owner to another. As an MRA I want women to lose the funding, lose the programs, lose the priviledge, lose the advantages and to be my equal. If women are equal to men then they don't need special programs or the goverment to "make things fair".

The object is to get rid of the mommy pig with teets not to add one more piggie to the dependant piggies.

Quote
My point was that you can not scream about the small percentage on one side while ignoring the large percentage on the other and expect to be taken seriously.


Like focusing on women not being CEOs but ignoring the 5 times more men who die on the job? Or ignoring the vast amount of men who do brutal, hard, dirty and tedious labor. Watch "The World's Dirtiest Jobs" on discovery. I didn't see a whole lot of women at the San Fransisco sewage treatment plant.

Yes part of my arguement is women do EXACTLY what you complain the men here do. They do this i a general sense as well. They focus on the very tiny minority of men who commit rape but ignore the men who build the vast amount of sky scrapers, bridges, dams, mines, air craft, cars etc. Nearly all the modern technology you have to day was also built BY MEN. But that appears to be ignored as well.



What I stated is that you guys complain about women doing such and then turn right around and do the same thing.

You just demonstrated that point.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 09, 2007, 02:07 PM

Women did not have the right to vote in national elections before 1920.  They were not allowed to by part of a jury until 1939.  We had no control over land left to us by our husbands after they died until the late 1800's.  Maybe that isn't significant to you?  It is well documented history, not some fantasy.

Yeah, men had it tough but they did have basic legal rights.

Maybe you need to brush up on your history.  It needs just a bit of a tweek.


Were you born in 1896?  No?

Then you have never been "oppwessed" in that way.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 02:07 PM

Quote
If you will recall what my first posts in this thread were about 62.5% of violence suffered by men was at the hands of other men.  Yet the focus is the 9.7% of the violent attacks on men perpetrated by women.

My point was that you can not scream about the small percentage on one side while ignoring the large percentage on the other and expect to be taken seriously.


Once again you leave out some very important stats that I know have been brought up,  but here they are graphically showing the very vioent side of women.


Do you think they are still just "stupid," "cute" "cartoons?"


They do take up tons of space don't they?  Are you unable to discuss without graphics?

Read back, Gonzo was able to verbalize the same thing.  I responded and if you will take the time to notice you will see I do not excuse or ignore.

On the other hand you want to cry over the 9.7% of violent attacks perpetrated by women on men and then ignore the opposite stats.

Kettle, meet pot.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 02:08 PM


Women did not have the right to vote in national elections before 1920.  They were not allowed to by part of a jury until 1939.  We had no control over land left to us by our husbands after they died until the late 1800's.  Maybe that isn't significant to you?  It is well documented history, not some fantasy.

Yeah, men had it tough but they did have basic legal rights.

Maybe you need to brush up on your history.  It needs just a bit of a tweek.


Were you born in 1896?  No?

Then you have never been "oppwessed" in that way.


No but I'm very grateful the laws changed.

Why does it wad you panties so? 
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 09, 2007, 02:09 PM

What I stated is that you guys complain about women doing such and then turn right around and do the same thing.

You just demonstrated that point.


Payback is a motherfucker, ain't it?

We learned our lessons well.  Little late for you to complain about what dirty pool it is after enjoying your ill-gotten gains all these years.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Mr. X on Jul 09, 2007, 02:11 PM
Quote
Yeah, men had it tough but they did have basic legal rights.

Maybe you need to brush up on your history.  It needs just a bit of a tweek.


So if you remember history then should women perpetuate the same mistakes with guilty till proven innocent, word of the priviledged class, theft of property, stereotyping of one group as the bad guy?

You keep playing this back and forth game of when its men who lose rights you seem to ignore it but when its about women's rights we better damn well remember their lost rights. If it isn't a game and there is no score and is no teams then does it make sense to bring up crap that happened in eras past? Is this some collective debt that will never be paid? Damn men cause they owe for something done decades or even centuries earlier?

If collectivism is a fallacy then its a fallacy for all not just when its convienent.

Also what about the vast majority of men oppressed? All the men who built the pyramids, the cities, the buildings... the men who worked as slaves. Very few people in history actually had rights.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 09, 2007, 02:11 PM



Women did not have the right to vote in national elections before 1920.  They were not allowed to by part of a jury until 1939.  We had no control over land left to us by our husbands after they died until the late 1800's.  Maybe that isn't significant to you?  It is well documented history, not some fantasy.

Yeah, men had it tough but they did have basic legal rights.

Maybe you need to brush up on your history.  It needs just a bit of a tweek.


Were you born in 1896?  No?

Then you have never been "oppwessed" in that way.


No but I'm very grateful the laws changed.

Why does it wad you panties so? 


Seems to wad yours pretty badly for never having suffered such "oppression."  Is it a psychic thing?

Hey - my Native American ancestors suffered at the hands of yours.  And?  So what?  So someone, somewhere, in history who only shares with you tits and a cunt got hit by a man.  Big fucking whoop.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 09, 2007, 02:18 PM
Quote
They do take up tons of space don't they?  Are you unable to discuss without graphics?

Read back, Gonzo was able to verbalize the same thing.  I responded and if you will take the time to notice you will see I do not excuse or ignore.

On the other hand you want to cry over the 9.7% of violent attacks perpetrated by women on men and then ignore the opposite stats.

Kettle, meet pot.


Hogwash!

I clearly show in your post that you are hypocritically ignoring the violence committed by women against their children, while calling on men to acknowledge men's violence.  Clearly, it all deserves to be put out on the table at domestic violence committee meetings, but you, like the gender feminists, espouse some kind of self-righteous imperative to hold men accountable for their violence, while at the same time ignoring women's violence.  You pick and choose and try to present yourself with authority, but the foul stench of your gender bigoted inequities are more fitting for a cesspool.  A place, I might add, the entire domestic violence industry deserves to be.

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 02:23 PM

Quote
Yeah, men had it tough but they did have basic legal rights.

Maybe you need to brush up on your history.  It needs just a bit of a tweek.


So if you remember history then should women perpetuate the same mistakes with guilty till proven innocent, word of the priviledged class, theft of property, stereotyping of one group as the bad guy?

You keep playing this back and forth game of when its men who lose rights you seem to ignore it but when its about women's rights we better damn well remember their lost rights. If it isn't a game and there is no score and is no teams then does it make sense to bring up crap that happened in eras past? Is this some collective debt that will never be paid? Damn men cause they owe for something done decades or even centuries earlier?

If collectivism is a fallacy then its a fallacy for all not just when its convienent.

Also what about the vast majority of men oppressed? All the men who built the pyramids, the cities, the buildings... the men who worked as slaves. Very few people in history actually had rights.


Very true.

Does that make my rights any less valuable than yours?

I have no desire to deprive you of any rights at all.

So is there a point to this post?  Because I'm having problems seeing any point to this one.  Could you give me a list of rights that you have lost because of my existence?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 02:24 PM




Women did not have the right to vote in national elections before 1920.  They were not allowed to by part of a jury until 1939.  We had no control over land left to us by our husbands after they died until the late 1800's.  Maybe that isn't significant to you?  It is well documented history, not some fantasy.

Yeah, men had it tough but they did have basic legal rights.

Maybe you need to brush up on your history.  It needs just a bit of a tweek.


Were you born in 1896?  No?

Then you have never been "oppwessed" in that way.


No but I'm very grateful the laws changed.

Why does it wad you panties so? 


Seems to wad yours pretty badly for never having suffered such "oppression."  Is it a psychic thing?

Hey - my Native American ancestors suffered at the hands of yours.  And?  So what?  So someone, somewhere, in history who only shares with you tits and a cunt got hit by a man.  Big fucking whoop.


You could save lots of keystrokes by typing in:

I'm angry, I have no point but I felt like posting this.

It would mean more than some of the tripe you try so hard to pass for deep thought.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 02:26 PM

Quote
They do take up tons of space don't they?  Are you unable to discuss without graphics?

Read back, Gonzo was able to verbalize the same thing.  I responded and if you will take the time to notice you will see I do not excuse or ignore.

On the other hand you want to cry over the 9.7% of violent attacks perpetrated by women on men and then ignore the opposite stats.

Kettle, meet pot.


Hogwash!

I clearly show in your post that you are hypocritically ignoring the violence committed by women against their children, while calling on men to acknowledge men's violence.  Clearly, it all deserves to be put out on the table at domestic violence committee meetings, but you, like the gender feminists, espouse some kind of self-righteous imperative to hold men accountable for their violence, while at the same time ignoring women's violence.  You pick and choose and try to present yourself with authority, but the foul stench of your gender bigoted inequities are more fitting for a cesspool.  A place, I might add, the entire domestic violence industry deserves to be.




Nope, I do not excuse violence.

I'll leave it to people like you to make the excuses.

You seem to have a knack for it.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 09, 2007, 02:32 PM
Quote
No but I'm very grateful the laws changed.

Why does it wad you panties so?


In a style consistent with your other ignorant posts, you reveal that you've failed to read what I sent.  Clearly, the information sent points out inequity in voting rights, and other rights, for both genders.  Regarding voting rights, the information points out which has been more severely discriminated against in recent history - men.  Of all the men and women born in the 20th century, men have had their voting rights far more egregiously violated than women.  If you don't understand that then you are ignorant of history and need to do your homework.

As far as your consistent name calling and patronizing and impertinent verbal attacks, it looks to me like you need to get yourself to a batterers intervention program for serious counseling for your abusiveness.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 09, 2007, 02:36 PM
Quote
Nope, I do not excuse violence.

I'll leave it to people like you to make the excuses.

You seem to have a knack for it.


Although the good Dr. E may be away at conference, I specifically note and call his attention to the above libelous post and formally ask that the person who made the above statement officially be warned, or banned, from this site for abusive speech towards another site participant.  There is no truth whatsoever in the above villification and I am outraged that such lie is made.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Mr. X on Jul 09, 2007, 02:37 PM

They do take up tons of space don't they?  Are you unable to discuss without graphics?

Read back, Gonzo was able to verbalize the same thing.  I responded and if you will take the time to notice you will see I do not excuse or ignore.

On the other hand you want to cry over the 9.7% of violent attacks perpetrated by women on men and then ignore the opposite stats.

Kettle, meet pot.


And has been shown on several occasions, women commit the majority of child abuse. You argue that men won't be taken seriously unless we acknowledge what happens to women. First off we HAVE acknowledged this for over 40 years. VAWA is FOR WOMAN. Nearly ALL federal funding for DV is FOR WOMEN.

But that door swings both ways. If you want men to help women should women also help men? If you want men to recognize hurt to women shouldn't women recognize the hurt and sacrifice made by men?

Your logic appears to be that only the perpetrator of violence is the issue and not the victim and so, if the victim and perpetrator are the same sex we should ignore the event. So if I get beat up by 5 football players my pain should be ignored because it was a crime of man on man? Women commit 60% of child abuse so if a woman beats a girl we should ignore it cause that's a crime of woman on woman? Women commit 100% of abortions so we should ignore India and China who have higher female fetus abortions cause its a crime of girl on girl?

Unlike some I'm not bawling about the 9% of women committing crimes. I concerned about the much larger majority of men who are victims of violent crime who are innocent and have done nothing to deserve it.

We should ignore the vast majority of victims of violence because the perps are the same sex? That's collectivist team playing something you claim you're against.

Its pretty clear here that women are NOT the biggest victims of violence yet you seem to demand that we focus on the female victims of violence. My stance is that its the victim who's the issue, not the perpetrator. Do we disallow women from being near children cause they commit the most violence against children?

So, according to you, if get beaten to death by a bunch of guys, my death should be ignored and I am not a victim cause its a crime of man on man?

And you have the gall to ask men here to worry about women if we want women to worry about us. I think that message applies to women more than men. We men put in over a half century helping women, listenning to your problems, changing, accomidating women's changes. But women have made little effort to help us.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Mr. X on Jul 09, 2007, 02:38 PM

Could you give me a list of rights that you have lost because of my existence?


Under which queen?
How about I lost my right to pick my job because I had to support women and children?
How about I have to work hard, back breaking, laborious jobs to pay for my wife and kids.
How about I lost my right to life cause when a war breaks out I'm the one rounded up and killed first.
How about I lost my right to my life because I am the one called up to defend the country and give my life?
How about I lost my right to be safe cause I am the vast majority of cops, fire fighters, rescue workers, dangerous job workers?
How about I lost innocence till proven guilty based on your word in court when it comes to rape and sexual harrassment?
How about I lost my ability to be with children cause I am labelled a pedophile first and a man last. Check Quantis Airlines.
How about I lost my recognition of being victimized in my youth, beaten relentlessly to impress YOU as a woman?
How about I can't stand up for men until I stand up for women FIRST.
How about when a fight breaks out I'm the one expected to give my life to save a woman's ass but she doesn't have to save me. Check all the guilt trips run on the boys at Virginia Tech.
How about I lose the right to see my children cause your word can label me a sex offender or abuser and all I get is the right to pay the bills.
How about I can't have close male friends without being called gay.
How about I lost my right to medical help because women come before men. Breast cancer is the number one disease research in the country even though heart disease is the number one killer.
How about when there is a DV incident its assumed I am the bad guy and am arrested.
How about when I am beaten and abused there are no shelters for me to go to except prison.
How about nearly 93% of all federal funding for DV goes to women.
How about there is a VAWA act but no VAMA act.
How about I lose out on jobs cause women have affirmative action to take that job away from me.
How about when I don't watch a female anchor or female basketball I'm sexist but when women don't watch them they are choosey.
How about when the Titanic sinks you get the life boat and I get to die in the cold water.
How about in court your word as a woman means more than my word as a man.
How about I lose my sexual reproductive rights. I have no say in whether the child stays or goes. I must pay, period. I get responsibilities and women get choices. If the woman ditches the fetus its choice. If I don't want the child I'm supposed to "take care of my bizness". I can be sued for CS even if I donated to a sperm bank (check the UK and US).
How about if a woman hits me in public its a laugh but if I hit a woman back I will be beaten up by a group of guys.
How about women have much more services and lawyer services available for them for divorce.
How about I lose my right to be single. If I'm single I'm a deadbeat, afraid of responsibility or gay. If a woman is single she is empowered, independant and strong willed.
How about I lose my right to be a teacher. Only 14% of school teachers k-8 are male with less than 9% in kindergarden. If a woman works with kids its fine. When a man works with kids he's suspect of being a pedophile.
How about I have to risk my life to cross the border to get a job to support my wife and kids.
How about I go to debter's prison for not paying CS but women do not. If I chose not to support a kid I don't want then I go to jail. If a woman chooses not to support a kid she doesn't want its a choice.
How come I'm the vast majority of homeless.
How about I lost 7 to 10 years off my life expectancey cause women get more and better medical care than I do. Hospitals have women's health centers. They DON'T have men's health centers. And NO general medicine is NOT men's medicine.

Need more?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Virtue on Jul 09, 2007, 02:40 PM
Jesus I can be slow


Gah she's and ATTENTION WHORE !  she doesn't give a shit about anything other than the LOOK AT ME Factor

With that  being said I am just gonna read other stuff now and she will soon enough wither away.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 09, 2007, 02:42 PM





Women did not have the right to vote in national elections before 1920.  They were not allowed to by part of a jury until 1939.  We had no control over land left to us by our husbands after they died until the late 1800's.  Maybe that isn't significant to you?  It is well documented history, not some fantasy.

Yeah, men had it tough but they did have basic legal rights.

Maybe you need to brush up on your history.  It needs just a bit of a tweek.


Were you born in 1896?  No?

Then you have never been "oppwessed" in that way.


No but I'm very grateful the laws changed.

Why does it wad you panties so? 


Seems to wad yours pretty badly for never having suffered such "oppression."  Is it a psychic thing?

Hey - my Native American ancestors suffered at the hands of yours.  And?  So what?  So someone, somewhere, in history who only shares with you tits and a cunt got hit by a man.  Big fucking whoop.


You could save lots of keystrokes by typing in:

I'm angry, I have no point but I felt like posting this.

It would mean more than some of the tripe you try so hard to pass for deep thought.


Quote
Read back, Gonzo was able to verbalize the same thing.  I responded and if you will take the time to notice you will see I do not excuse or ignore.


There's another lie.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 09, 2007, 02:52 PM
Click on photo.

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/th_P6130038a.jpg) (http://s61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/?action=view&current=.my_first_widget.pbw)
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 02:56 PM






Women did not have the right to vote in national elections before 1920.  They were not allowed to by part of a jury until 1939.  We had no control over land left to us by our husbands after they died until the late 1800's.  Maybe that isn't significant to you?  It is well documented history, not some fantasy.

Yeah, men had it tough but they did have basic legal rights.

Maybe you need to brush up on your history.  It needs just a bit of a tweek.


Were you born in 1896?  No?

Then you have never been "oppwessed" in that way.


No but I'm very grateful the laws changed.

Why does it wad you panties so? 


Seems to wad yours pretty badly for never having suffered such "oppression."  Is it a psychic thing?

Hey - my Native American ancestors suffered at the hands of yours.  And?  So what?  So someone, somewhere, in history who only shares with you tits and a cunt got hit by a man.  Big fucking whoop.


You could save lots of keystrokes by typing in:

I'm angry, I have no point but I felt like posting this.

It would mean more than some of the tripe you try so hard to pass for deep thought.


Quote
Read back, Gonzo was able to verbalize the same thing.  I responded and if you will take the time to notice you will see I do not excuse or ignore.


There's another lie.

No it isn't.  But don't let that stop you.

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 09, 2007, 03:08 PM


They do take up tons of space don't they?  Are you unable to discuss without graphics?

Read back, Gonzo was able to verbalize the same thing.  I responded and if you will take the time to notice you will see I do not excuse or ignore.

On the other hand you want to cry over the 9.7% of violent attacks perpetrated by women on men and then ignore the opposite stats.

Kettle, meet pot.


And has been shown on several occasions, women commit the majority of child abuse. You argue that men won't be taken seriously unless we acknowledge what happens to women. First off we HAVE acknowledged this for over 40 years. VAWA is FOR WOMAN. Nearly ALL federal funding for DV is FOR WOMEN.

But that door swings both ways. If you want men to help women should women also help men? If you want men to recognize hurt to women shouldn't women recognize the hurt and sacrifice made by men?

Your logic appears to be that only the perpetrator of violence is the issue and not the victim and so, if the victim and perpetrator are the same sex we should ignore the event. So if I get beat up by 5 football players my pain should be ignored because it was a crime of man on man? Women commit 60% of child abuse so if a woman beats a girl we should ignore it cause that's a crime of woman on woman? Women commit 100% of abortions so we should ignore India and China who have higher female fetus abortions cause its a crime of girl on girl?

Unlike some I'm not bawling about the 9% of women committing crimes. I concerned about the much larger majority of men who are victims of violent crime who are innocent and have done nothing to deserve it.

We should ignore the vast majority of victims of violence because the perps are the same sex? That's collectivist team playing something you claim you're against.

Its pretty clear here that women are NOT the biggest victims of violence yet you seem to demand that we focus on the female victims of violence. My stance is that its the victim who's the issue, not the perpetrator. Do we disallow women from being near children cause they commit the most violence against children?

So, according to you, if get beaten to death by a bunch of guys, my death should be ignored and I am not a victim cause its a crime of man on man?

And you have the gall to ask men here to worry about women if we want women to worry about us. I think that message applies to women more than men. We men put in over a half century helping women, listenning to your problems, changing, accomidating women's changes. But women have made little effort to help us.


I do not get where I've made this statement excusing child abuse.  If you can furnish the post I'll be happy to read it.

I've stated over and over that I do not excuse violence.  It has nothing to do with male/female or trying to ignore the stats.  Yes women are far more likely to physically abuse a child.  Does that help?  A statement that can not be twisted or spun in the least.  It is what it is.

Are you honestly trying to claim that a woman never listened to your problems or tried to help you solve anything?  Is that your claim here?  If that is true you have lead a very sheltered existance.  It's hard to believe you never had a mother, sister, teacher, sunday school teacher, co-worker, etc., that has never listened to a single problem that may have invaded your life and never ever offered support or advice.

If I recall we were talking about domestic violence and how some on this board cheer when they read of a woman being victimized and then turn right around and go on and on about a man that has suffered the same fate as long as the perpetrator was a woman.  Selective outrage at best.  That isn't a badge of honor it is just the opposite.

I didn't say anyone's death should be ignored.  Those are words you have attempted to put in my mouth but quite frankly they do not fit.

If you feel women should be kept away from children because they may abuse them physically what about men that may abuse them sexually?  You see that knife cuts both ways.

I'll make a deal with you.  I will not assume you are a child rapists [keep in mind men have a much stronger track record in that order] if you will not assume me to be a child abuser.

Like I said earlier, there are good men and bad men; good women and bad women.  Neither gender is totally good or totally bad.  Why would anyone want to look at life in such narrow terms is hard to understand.

My point by bringing up the difference in the stats was to point out that violence is a real issue that should be dealt with head on.  Not ignored and pushed aside because it does not fit some gender driven agenda.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: dr e on Jul 09, 2007, 03:10 PM
Go away for a while and look what happens. 

Please use this thread for discussing issues and avoid the name calling.  I will let things go up to this point and call it a draw.

I would be very cautious around this poster.  She/he seems to lack a true interest in discussion and seems to fail at listening and prefer to stir up trouble and create chaos.  Use caution.  As long as things stay civil I will let this thread go but will lock it if things get out of hand.  Actually dealing with posters like this one are good practice at dealing with shaming tactics and misdirection/deception. 

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: dr e on Jul 09, 2007, 03:13 PM
Quote
If I recall we were talking about domestic violence and how some on this board cheer when they read of a woman being victimized


Back that up with a link.  Lets see where posters here cheered a woman being victimized.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 09, 2007, 03:30 PM

No it isn't.  But don't let that stop you.


Well, in fact it is a lie, because that is what you are is a liar.  I have let the charade go on long enough to give you enough rope to hang yourself, but you have sure managed the hat trick of feminist hogswallop for not being a feminist nor taken a course in it - plus managing to dodge anything of substance placed in front of you with your pet stats.

Okay - let's go here:

http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

SUMMARY:  This bibliography examines 196 scholarly investigations: 153 empirical studies and 43 reviews and/or analyses, which demonstrate that women are as physically aggressive, or more aggressive, than men in their relationships with their spouses or male partners.  The aggregate sample size in the reviewed studies exceeds 177,100.

Hmm.  As violent - or more so.  Hmmm.

Combined with your pet stat, this might seem to indicate that your gender, collectively, makes it a habit of bringing knives to gun fights; of writing checks your ass can't cash.

Hell, honey - you ain't pissed off men are more violent than women - you're pissed off that men are better at it.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 09, 2007, 03:32 PM

Quote
If I recall we were talking about domestic violence and how some on this board cheer when they read of a woman being victimized


Back that up with a link.  Lets see where posters here cheered a woman being victimized.


Well, when women claim to be victimized, and men ask that they prove it is so, that's the same as "cheering" don't ya know.

I mean, not take her word for it?  You might as we4ll rape her all over again....

(coughCRYSTALGAYLEMANGUMcough)
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 09, 2007, 03:54 PM
Quote
If you feel women should be kept away from children because they may abuse them physically what about men that may abuse them sexually?  You see that knife cuts both ways.

I'll make a deal with you.  I will not assume you are a child rapists [keep in mind men have a much stronger track record in that order] if you will not assume me to be a child abuser.



Stop euphemizing, as posted, we are talking about child neglect or abuse that results in the death of the child.  There are more children dead from abuse and neglect annually than all the female victims of intimate partner homicide annually, yet there is no major multibillion dollar industry witch-hunting the primary perpetrators as exists with domestic violence.

The primary sexual abusers of those children are not biological Fathers, yet it is biological Fathers who are driven from their children's lives by gender feminist, misandirst bigots as if they were abusers.  There is far too much sloppy statistic generalization and vilification, to the detriment of innocent, good men, going in gender feminism, and coincidentally, in your posts.

It is time for gender feminists, and you, to be accountable for the vilifications you engage in.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 09, 2007, 04:02 PM
Quote
My point by bringing up the difference in the stats was to point out that violence is a real issue that should be dealt with head on.  Not ignored and pushed aside because it does not fit some gender driven agenda.


Good, while you're at it, why don't you go to hypocritical groups like ANSWER, and women's studies programs who are a part of the progressive alliance with ANSWER, and have them confront all the violence for profit done by the communists who manufacture AK-47's.

The military channel declared the AK-47 the #1 military assault rifle of all time, in large part, due to the incredible number of them that have been manufactured, over 50, 000, 000 world wide.

By all means, don't let your politics stop you now.

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/Misc/EndCommieImperialismAK-47Proliferat.jpg)
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Mr. X on Jul 09, 2007, 04:21 PM
Are you honestly trying to claim that a woman never listened to your problems or tried to help you solve anything?  Is that your claim here?  If that is true you have lead a very sheltered existance.  It's hard to believe you never had a mother, sister, teacher, sunday school teacher, co-worker, etc., that has never listened to a single problem that may have invaded your life and never ever offered support or advice.

yes this is my claim. Women do not help men. I have not had women help me in my life certainly NOT to the expectation they have out of me. I think it is also dishonest to include relatives. If the ONLY women that ever help me its my mother or sister out of ALL the women I have met in my life then that truly is a sad statement on help. No I have never had a woman help me outside immediate family. No female support. No female hand outs. No female compassion. The best I usually can hope for is today I will be ignored. I certainly have never been helped by women who I have helped in the past. I have paid in a lot more to the female bank than I ever had gotten a return from.

This is a lot of men's stories, not just mine. The truth is women are not there, not for us men. Its about their lives and their choices and their wants and their self esteem and their desires and their pain and their victimhood. I have no plans to further help women. I did my 40 years. I paid my price. I did my job and I never got paid.

So the question I have to ask is why should I help someone who will never help me? Why should I gain the approval of someone who doesn't care about me? Why should I fight for someone who will simply back the enemy to survive? What's in it for me when the best I can hope for is to be ignored and the worst to be blamed, scorned and ridiculed. Maureen Dowd even wrote a book about how we men are unnecessary. How many times have you seen articles talking about how men are unnecessary, unwanted, they have a defective y chromosome and doomed to extinction.

Women are not there for men that is very clear. Now men need to wake up and stop being there for women. The time for talk is over. You've walked away from us to get your own lives now we need to walk away from you.


Quote
If you feel women should be kept away from children because they may abuse them physically what about men that may abuse them sexually?  You see that knife cuts both ways.

GOD DAMN! That's exactly what is happening TODAY! Men ARE assumed to be pedophiles AND are kept away from children. Check Quantis airline's seating policy about kids and men. Check the 9% of kindergarden teachers who are men. ITS ALREADY HAPPENNING!

Quote
I'll make a deal with you.  I will not assume you are a child rapists [keep in mind men have a much stronger track record in that order] if you will not assume me to be a child abuser.

I've heard this before. Women will agree with menn to shut men up then its "ok now back to our issues". Sorry I'm not buying it anymore.

Quote
Like I said earlier, there are good men and bad men; good women and bad women.  Neither gender is totally good or totally bad.  Why would anyone want to look at life in such narrow terms is hard to understand.

So quit putting women on some moral hgih ground where they don't belong and accept BOTH sexes have problems with the other sex and its NOT a one way street.

Quote
My point by bringing up the difference in the stats was to point out that violence is a real issue that should be dealt with head on.  Not ignored and pushed aside because it does not fit some gender driven agenda.

YES! So the vast majority of violent crime victims shouldn't be ignored cause they are the same sex as the perpetrators. Women are so ready to point out the Virginia Tech shooter was a man but never mention the one hero who gave his life saving students WAS ALSO A MAN. Do you even know the name of that elderly professor? Did he ever get a medal? Men are judged by only the bad we do, not the good. We are judged by 19 hijackers and not 340 firefighters and police who gave their lives at 9/11.

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: TheManOnTheStreet on Jul 09, 2007, 04:21 PM
You ever get the feeling that you're not being listened to?  Ahem... Can't say I told you so.. Oh wait, I just did...

Also, ever get the feeling that you are getting scolded by some grade school teacher?  Oh wait you are!  Now pay attention class...  Little miss grade school teacher is learnin' us!

TMOTS
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 09, 2007, 09:31 PM
She didn't say a word about this, but speaking of female sexual abuse that has only recently been coming to light...

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53859
WORLD NET DAILY
The big list: Female teachers with students
Young victims mostly male, while penalties often hand slap


http://interested-participant.blogspot.com/2006/08/women-with-troubles-august-2006.html
Women With Troubles - August 2006

The following is a listing of women with troubles reported in the news during August 2006. Each name is linked to an Interested-Participant blog entry displaying detailed information.

It just makes you wonder how many violent, abusive, and raping women there really are out there, that the gender feminist are still covering up.

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 09, 2007, 10:00 PM
ok I have serveral comments
1. who me, when you talk about   the percentage of violence that is perpetrated by males, how accurate can that be......for example, some guys I went to high school wiht, one has a sister who works in a nice strip club, I have heard stories of "set ups"...........if the police were to  make an arrest, most likely the crime would be ascribed as male on male
2. gonzo......your native american................hell I didnt even know you were american period; I thought you were a welshman :laughing6:
3. for those  in the peoples republic of mexifornia..................buy a two end bag and work on head movement.........when she swings again make sure you are in front of glass or something that will hurt her hand, and you slip her punch and she hurts her hand..................you couldnt be legally liable for her injuries I guess
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 10, 2007, 02:58 AM

2. gonzo......your native american................hell I didnt even know you were american period; I thought you were a welshman :laughing6:


My great grandmother was a full-blooded Lenni Lenape.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 10, 2007, 06:48 AM


2. gonzo......your native american................hell I didnt even know you were american period; I thought you were a welshman :laughing6:


My great grandmother was a full-blooded Lenni Lenape.


brit and native american interesting combo; my mother is  a product of  a russian jew and a mexican
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 10, 2007, 08:28 AM



2. gonzo......your native american................hell I didnt even know you were american period; I thought you were a welshman :laughing6:


My great grandmother was a full-blooded Lenni Lenape.


brit and native american interesting combo; my mother is  a product of  a russian jew and a mexican


Brit?

Hoosier by circumstance, Southern by birth, and TEXAN BY THE GRACE OF GOD!
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 10, 2007, 09:47 AM
your a fellow texan.........................I knew you werent so wise by accident :occasion18:
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Virtue on Jul 10, 2007, 12:55 PM
What happened to the troll?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Mr. X on Jul 10, 2007, 01:29 PM
Well seeing how she was replying to about 10 posters at once the whole dialog has strayed to the point that none of the issues really can be discussed efficiently. Now if she would have stuck to one topic instead of branching to each reply then I think she could have stayed in the game. I don't agree that not replying to posts is trolling especially when that would require huge amounts of multiple posts to deal with. But I do think replying to each and every post and causing branch after branch is trolling if somewhat unintentional trolling. I have no idea what this topic even turned into at this point.

I do think a poster having a disagreement should be able to stick to one concept and not get side tracked and that may require not responding to all posts.

But then, when you throw half a pig into shark infested waters don't expect to make bacon anytime soon.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 10, 2007, 02:26 PM
Yeah I did make a mistake trying to respond to each poster.  It's silly how you guys swarmed because someone spoke up about the violence done to pregnant women.

The OP based this thread on an abstract theory that offered very little in the way of back up when it came to facts.

You want some real facts, no problem.

Read the following articles.

http://endabuse.org/resources/facts/

http://www.startribune.com/484/story/1288976.html

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=3316485

You can not expect to be taken seriously when you complain about male abuse being ignored when you choose to ignore just how big the issue of domestic violence really is.  It affects not only the spouse being abused but is carried on to the next generation as well.

But what the heck.  You aren't going to listen.  When someone confronts you with the facts you just call them a troll among other names and then complain if you are challenged in the least; at least by someone you have decided is a female.  Because goodness know a male could never disagree with you.  You would only label them as sell outs anyway.


Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 10, 2007, 03:03 PM
Quote
You can not expect to be taken seriously when you complain about male abuse being ignored when you choose to ignore just how big the issue of domestic violence really is.


You can't expect to be taken seriously when you quote the dishonest information from the gender feminist ideology based, Family Violence Prevention Fund.  FVPF is where those lying black and blue bumper stickers come from that the Los Angeles Police Dept. has on every police car.  The LAPD use mandatory aggressor as their number one tool to excuse female domestic violence, but they hatefully use other prejudiced rationalizations as well to excuse women's domestic violence, thanks to their hateful, gender feminist training.

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/DVAwarenessMonth/TheresNoExcuseForDVExcept1a.jpg)

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/DVAwarenessMonth/PA090099a.jpg)

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/DVAwarenessMonth/PA100002a.jpg)

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/DVAwarenessMonth/PA130033a.jpg)

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/DVAwarenessMonth/PA180105a.jpg)

Domestic violence law is the greatest fraud ever perpetrated in the history of America and there has been plenty posted in this thread to overwhelmingly show that.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 10, 2007, 03:11 PM
Quote
When someone confronts you with the facts you just call them a troll among other names and then complain if you are challenged in the least; at least by someone you have decided is a female.  Because goodness know a male could never disagree with you.  You would only label them as sell outs anyway.



All you've confronted us with is lies and foolishness (MS-information) based on a corrupt domestic violence industry that has no credibility (zero, nadda,  none, zippo, zilch).  Again you use the bigots tool of stereotyping to refer to all posters here in a group, without being specific to individuals.  I have referred to you specifically as "she/he" not knowing which sex you are, since you do not state.  It seems that's a big deal with you.  Why?  There certainly are male gender feminists who are as despicable, if not more despicable, in their misandry than female gender feminists.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 10, 2007, 03:24 PM
http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2004/1222davis.html

Quote
If out of a 100,000 births there are only a small handful of intimate partner injury related deaths, what this data actually documents is that the relevant factors concerning the homicides of these pregnant women must be something other than the pregnancy itself.


and

http://www.mediaradar.org/ncfm_letter_wp.php
Quote
While the articles foster the impression that maternal homicide is widespread, statistics reveal the exact opposite: only five one-thousandths of 1% of expectant or new mothers - that is, 0.005% - are victims of fatal domestic violence.



Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 10, 2007, 03:28 PM

Quote
You can not expect to be taken seriously when you complain about male abuse being ignored when you choose to ignore just how big the issue of domestic violence really is.


You can't expect to be taken seriously when you quote the dishonest information from the gender feminist ideology based, Family Violence Prevention Fund.  

Domestic violence law is the greatest fraud ever perpetrated in the history of America and there has been plenty posted in this thread to overwhelmingly show that.



Did you notice the little bitty numbers next to the statements?  They are called references.  Check out the list of references.

I'm sure the U.S. Department of Justice, the Bureau of Justice , National Institute of Justice, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, U.S. Department of Education, and the Center for Policy Research are all part of the feminist conspiracy.

Of course a 2 paragraph article written about an abstract theory with no data to back the theory is a far more realiable than something as blan as facts backed up by real data isn't it?

Care for another straw?  I'm sure you can find one to grasp somewhere.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 10, 2007, 03:36 PM

http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2004/1222davis.html

Quote
If out of a 100,000 births there are only a small handful of intimate partner injury related deaths, what this data actually documents is that the relevant factors concerning the homicides of these pregnant women must be something other than the pregnancy itself.


and

http://www.mediaradar.org/ncfm_letter_wp.php
Quote
While the articles foster the impression that maternal homicide is widespread, statistics reveal the exact opposite: only five one-thousandths of 1% of expectant or new mothers - that is, 0.005% - are victims of fatal domestic violence.






I give you articles backed up by real data ,written by journalist working for outfits like ABC and you offer in return an article written for a men's rights mag?

What would be your reaction if I had linked to a feminist site?

Oh that's right; your head would explode and then you would blame it on me.

Try working with real data that is back up by references and let's see if you can avoid the men's rights propagandist.

Take that last sentence, insert the word women every time you see men and if you are honest you will see I'm only holding you to the standard you will set for me.

Do you think you can deal with those parameters?

Probably not.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 10, 2007, 03:47 PM
Quote
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention,


http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/ipvfacts.htm
Quote
In the United States every year, about 1.5 million women and more than 800,000 men are raped or physically assaulted by an intimate partner. This translates into about 47 IPV assaults per 1,000 women and 32 assaults per 1,000 men (Tjaden and Thoennes 2000a).


The CDC shows that over 34% of Intimate Partner Violence is committed against males so why do gender feminist trained police dept's. witch hunt men to get the statistics to get more money to witch hunt more men?

http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2005/0316blumhorst.html
Quote
In one of his columns, "Baseball Player's Domestic Violence Arrest Demonstrates How Men are Presumed Guilty in Domestic Disputes," Glenn Sacks writes,

"Part of the problem is the training that police officers receive from the domestic violence industry, which insists that 95% of domestic violence is committed by men. Southern California domestic violence consultant Anne O'Dell, who has conducted over 500 domestic violence trainings of police officers and commanders, judges, district attorneys, and victim advocates, tells her trainees that 'if a police officer is arresting more than 8% women, you've got a real problem. When an officer arrests 12% or 15% women, I'm outraged.' O'Dell says that dual arrests should occur in no more than 3% of incidents."

Why, oh why, should that be the case? Shouldn't the police be arresting people based on the evidence they find, and not on some arbitrary goal established by domestic violence industry trainers who advocate "arrest goals" for men?

In the same article Greg Schmidt, a police lieutenant who created the Seattle police department's domestic violence investigation unit in 1994, says,

"The domestic violence industry--the trainers, the shelter directors, etc.--can spin things however they want," he says, "but most street cops know that women are just as likely to start domestic disputes as men are. But arresting women puts you under lot of scrutiny. It's bad for your career."

It is not surprising to hear domestic violence industry insiders fallaciously crying out about a plague of domestic violence in society, when we consider that they are the foxes guarding the chicken houses (battered women's shelters), containing the eggs (statistics) that are needed to fuel (fund) their purpose (ideology).

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 10, 2007, 03:51 PM
Quote
I give you articles backed up by real data ,written by journalist working for outfits like ABC and you offer in return an article written for a men's rights mag?


You have been given real data, if you would bother to check the references, so your impertinent insults and patronizing verbal abuse again point to your need for batterer intervention for you.  You are an abusive person and need help.  It's kind of sick how you pretend to care about domestic violence then commit such abusiveness against others here.  That strikes me as very hypocritical.

The majority of the German people, before WWII thought Adolph Hitler was a valid part of their government.  They were as deceived as the American public is about the great evil and lies of the Violence Against Women Act (VAWA) and all the fraud, lies, abuse and other atrocities committed in its name.  Both Adolph Hitler and VAWA are government institutions of hate.  They are the same in many, many ways.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: dr e on Jul 10, 2007, 04:48 PM

Quote
I'm sure the U.S. Department of Justice, the Bureau of Justice , National Institute of Justice, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, U.S. Department of Education, and the Center for Policy Research are all part of the feminist conspiracy.


Well, actually, yes.  They are a part of the misinformation that has been spawned by our government and by the media.  Your pedestrian ideas are a reflection of that.

The problem is that the justice department or CDC use statistics based on cases that have been logged in the system.  Guess what?  The system is built for women only! Maybe could be likened to studying men by sampling visitors to women's bathrooms.  Duh.  How will you find statistics that accurately reflect reality if your sample is so biased?  You can't.  This is why feminists rely so heavily on hospital and police statistics.  They reflect only what they want to hear and are biased due to our system being funded for women only.

In order to get accurate information you need to look into peer reviewed studies that are published in reputable journals.  When you look at that data and not the skewed stats based on the populations in our present system you begin to see a different picture.  Here is an abstract from a peer reviewed meta-analysis that was done a few years back:
Quote

     Archer, J. (2000).  Sex differences in aggression between heterosexual partners: A meta-analytic review.  Psychological Bulletin, 126, 651-680. (Meta-analyses of sex differences in physical aggression indicate that women were more likely than men to "use one or more acts of physical aggression and to use such acts more frequently."  In terms of injuries, women were somewhat more likely to be injured, and analyses reveal that  62% of those injured were women.)


Notice that it is done by a world renowned researcher and published in a highly acclaimed journal.

So men suffered serious injuries 38% of the time but get ZERO percent of the services? Something is wrong with this picture and it is called MISANDRY.




Quote
You can not expect to be taken seriously when you complain about male abuse being ignored when you choose to ignore just how big the issue of domestic violence really is.


You can't expect to be taken seriously when you quote the dishonest information from the gender feminist ideology based, Family Violence Prevention Fund. 

Domestic violence law is the greatest fraud ever perpetrated in the history of America and there has been plenty posted in this thread to overwhelmingly show that.



Did you notice the little bitty numbers next to the statements?  They are called references.  Check out the list of references.

I'm sure the U.S. Department of Justice, the Bureau of Justice , National Institute of Justice, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, U.S. Department of Education, and the Center for Policy Research are all part of the feminist conspiracy.

Of course a 2 paragraph article written about an abstract theory with no data to back the theory is a far more realiable than something as blan as facts backed up by real data isn't it?

Care for another straw?  I'm sure you can find one to grasp somewhere.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Mr. X on Jul 10, 2007, 05:56 PM

Yeah I did make a mistake trying to respond to each poster.  It's silly how you guys swarmed because someone spoke up about the violence done to pregnant women.

The thread starting article EXPLICITElY states 30% abuse rate for women AND A 40% ABUSE rate for men then just talks about what happens to the women. Isn't this exactly what you are complaining about: ignoring one sex while concentrating on the other while ignoring the bigger group that gets hurt?

Its the same with DV and violent crime. Talk ONLY about what happens to women and NOT about men even though men are the much larger victim of violent crime than women AND nealry 43% of the victims of DV (around Half) is also exactly what you are complaining about: ignoring the plight of one six while concentrating only on the other.

The arguement you return with is that men perpetrate most of these crimes which appears to be some arguement that we are supposed to ignore when men get hurt cause its a man on man thing. So we bring up 60% of child abuse is caused by women and ask should we ignore when women hurt girls cause the vast majority of abusers are women?

Sorry but you ladies have had your 40 years. We HAVE been listenning, for nearly half a century. Perhaps if women want us men to help they need to start helping us and recognize we too make horrible sacrifices and are victims in a lot of ways. But its always turned around to be about women. I've paid my price. I pay no longer and I encourage others to walk away.

If you think of women as an investment, its a sad investment with a horrible return on out dollar. We fight for your freedom, for your rights. We sacrifice and give up and in return you talk about disposing of us. That we're not needed as fathers. That we are an unnecessary cancer. That all crime and violence is out fault. That there would be no more war if one final horrible act took us from this Earth. Its clear to some of us men that we backed the wrong horse.

So you want us to worry about that 30% of abused pregnant women yet we are to ignore the larger abused 40% of men like the article did? Sorry. Not anymore. You're our equals now. Maybe you don't need help anymore and its time we help ourselves.


Who Me: This article alone THAT YOU PROVIDED examplifies my point
http://endabuse.org/resources/facts/

It ONLY describes violence AGAINST WOMEN. It only shows numbers WHEN WOMEN ARE HURT. More than likely, if we trace the numbers you'll find men come a pretty darn close to those numbers except for rape. This is a grand example of a list created to show ONLY WOMEN are victims by only discussing numbers relevant to women. Again, what you complain about: ignoring one sex while boulstering the other.

For example, here is the BOJ tabel of violent crime victims.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/vsxtab.htm
It shows approximately 4.9 mil women are victims of violence vs 7.68 million men. More than 1/3rd more MEN than women are victims of violent crime

This is the intimate partner data
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/intimate/victims.htm
Yes women suffer worse in THIS area but here again is an example of what you complain about. In all the areas women suffer worse, we ALL are supposed to jump to the rescue. But in the areas where men suffer more (stranger attacks, murder, brutal beatings etc) its a 'crime of man on man" and to be ignored.

Bottom line is in certain areas women suffer more but overall MEN are the greater victims of violent crime. So how come we are ONLY to care and help in those particular areas when women are hurt and ignore some of the larger number areas where men are hurt MORE?

Also Take a look at the overall violent crime rate.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viort.htm
They have gone down SIGNIFICANTLY since 1973. Is that NOT us men helping? But of course its never enough. The black hole of "help me first and when all women are safe we can think about caring about men" will never be filled.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 10, 2007, 08:52 PM
Quote
Take that last sentence, insert the word women every time you see men and if you are honest you will see I'm only holding you to the standard you will set for me.


What you are proposing is lying about the statistics, which is something I'll just leave to you and the gender feminists.  VAWA was begun with lies, the big one being the Super Bowl Sunday Myth by notorious, man-hating, abuser, CA state Senator Sheila Kuehl.  Her Super Bowl Sunday lie was a signifant part of getting VAWA passed in the 1st place and has been refuted many, many times, but the gender feminist lie still lives on.  CA assemblywoman Rebbecca Cohn repeated the lie a few years ago on her web site after the lie had been completely debunked.  That's just how corrupt and evil the domestic violence industry in CA and Amerika is today.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 10, 2007, 09:17 PM

Yeah I did make a mistake trying to respond to each poster.  It's silly how you guys swarmed because someone spoke up about the violence done to pregnant women.


Fuck your pregnat women.

Me, me, me.  Us, us, us.  It's always about women.

To wit:

Quote
You can not expect to be taken seriously when you complain about male abuse being ignored when you choose to ignore just how big the issue of domestic violence really is.  It affects not only the spouse being abused but is carried on to the next generation as well.


Yeah,m that's fucking right, isn't it, Feminazi Troll?  Until we bow down and kiss the alabaster ass of the feminine and grovel at "how much worse women have it in each and every way"  and cave to your petulant demands to fix women's problems FIRST.

F.O.A.D.  The latter part of the twentieth century has been your turn.  It's ours now.  You have NOW, NARAL, Women's this, Commission that, Network the other, and now you come here and demand we dilute our efforts to men by giving half - or more - to you AGAIN, put our concerns on the back burner AGAIN - and all when your sex as a whole has pretty much done jack shit for us for fifty years or more.

Bite me.

Quote
But what the heck.  You aren't going to listen.  When someone confronts you with the facts you just call them a troll among other names and then complain if you are challenged in the least; at least by someone you have decided is a female.  Because goodness know a male could never disagree with you.  You would only label them as sell outs anyway.


:sad2: :sad2: :sad2: :sad2:
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 10, 2007, 09:20 PM


Try working with real data that is back up by references and let's see if you can avoid the men's rights propagandist.



Real data: Feminist Propaganda.

Try here (http://www.amazon.com/How-Lie-Statistics-Darrell-Huff/dp/0393310728)
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 10, 2007, 09:23 PM
Here's some links for ya.  Shove these in your pipe and smoke 'em.
Aizenman, M., & Kelley, G. (1988).  The incidence of violence and acquaintance rape in dating relationships among college men and women.  Journal of College Student Development, 29, 305-311.  (A sample of actively dating college students <204 women and 140 men> responded to a survey examining courtship violence.  Authors report that there were no significant differences between the sexes in self reported perpetration of physical abuse.)

     Archer, J. (2000).  Sex differences in aggression between heterosexual partners: A meta-analytic review.  Psychological Bulletin, 126, 651-680. (Meta-analyses of sex differences in physical aggression indicate that women were more likely than men to "use one or more acts of physical aggression and to use such acts more frequently."  In terms of injuries, women were somewhat more likely to be injured, and analyses reveal that  62% of those injured were women.)

    Archer, J. (2002).  Sex differences in physically aggressive acts between heterosexual partners: A meta-analytic review.  Aggression and Violent Behavior, 7, 213-351.  (Analyzing responses to the Conflict Tactic Scale and using a data set somewhat different from the previous 2000 publication, the author reports that women are more likely than men to throw something at their partners, as well as slap, kick, bite, punch and hit with an object.  Men were more likely than women to strangle, choke, or beat up their partners.)

     Archer, J., & Ray, N. (1989).  Dating violence in the United Kingdom: a preliminary study.  Aggressive Behavior, 15, 337-343. (Twenty three dating couples completed the Conflict Tactics scale.  Results indicate that women were significantly more likely than their male partners to express physical violence.  Authors also report that, "measures of partner agreement were high" and that the correlation between past and present violence was low.)

      Arias, I., Samios, M., & O'Leary, K. D. (1987).  Prevalence and correlates of physical aggression during courtship. Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 2, 82-90. (Used Conflict Tactics Scale with a sample of 270 undergraduates <95 men, 175 women> and found 30% of men and 49% of women reported using some form of  aggression in their dating histories with a greater percentage of women engaging in severe physical aggression.)

     Arias, I., & Johnson, P. (1989).  Evaluations of physical  aggression among intimate dyads.  Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 4, 298-307. (Used Conflict Tactics Scale-CTS- with a sample of 103 male and 99 female undergraduates. Both men and women had similar experience with dating violence, 19% of women and 18% of men admitted being physically aggressive.  A significantly greater percentage of women thought self-defense was a legitimate reason for men to be aggressive,  while a greater percentage of men thought slapping was a legitimate response for a man or woman if their partner was sexually unfaithful.)

    Arriaga, X. B., & Foshee, V. A. (2004).  Adolescent dating violence.  Do adolescents follow in their friends' or their parents' footsteps?  Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 19, 162-184.  (A modified version of Conflict Tactics Scale was administered on two occasions, 6 months apart, to 526 adolescents, <280 girls, 246 boys> whose median age was 13.  Results reveal that 28% of girls reported perpetrating violence with their partners <17% moderate, 11% severe> on occasion one, while 42% of girls reported perpetrating violence <25% moderate, 17% severe> on occasion two.  For boys, 11% reported perpetrating violence <6% moderate, 5% severe> on occasion one, while 21% reported perpetrating violence <6% moderate, 15% severe> on occasion two.  In terms of victimization, 33% of girls, and 38% of boys reported being victims of partner aggression on occasion one and 47% of girls and 49% of boys reported victimization on occasion two.

    Basile, S. (2004).  Comparison of abuse by same and opposite-gender litigants as cited in requests for abuse prevention orders.  Journal of Family Violence, 19, 59-68.  (Author examined court documents in Massachusetts for the year 1997 and found that, "male and female defendants, who were the subject of a complaint in domestic relations cases, while sometimes exhibiting different aggressive tendencies, measured almost equally abusive in terms of the overall level of psychological and physical aggression.)

    Bernard, M. L., & Bernard, J. L. (1983).  Violent intimacy: The family as a model for love relationships.  Family Relations, 32, 283-286.  (Surveyed 461 college students, 168 men, 293 women, with regard to dating violence.  Found that 15% of the men admitted to physically abusing their partners, while 21% of women admitted to physically abusing their partners.)

    Billingham, R. E., & Sack, A. R. (1986).  Courtship violence and the interactive status of the relationship.  Journal of Adolescent Research, 1, 315-325.  (Using CTS with  526 university students <167 men, 359 women> found Similar rates of mutual violence but with women reporting higher rates of violence initiation when partner had not--9% vs 3%.)

     Bland, R., & Orne, H. (1986).  Family violence and psychiatric disorder.  Canadian Journal of Psychiatry, 31, 129-137. (In interviews with 1,200 randomly selected Canadians <489 men, 711 women> found that women both engaged in and initiated violence at higher rates than their male partners.)

     Bohannon, J. R., Dosser Jr., D. A., & Lindley, S. E. (1995). Using couple data to determine domestic violence rates: An attempt to replicate previous work.  Violence and Victims, 10, 133-41. (Authors report that in a sample of 94 military couples 11% of wives and 7% of husbands were physically aggressive, as reported by the wives.)

    Bookwala, J. (2002). The role of own and perceived partner attachment in relationship aggression. Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 17, 84-100. (In a sample of 161 undergraduates, 34.3% of women <n=35> reported being victims of partner aggression compared to 55.9% <n=33> of men.)

     Bookwala, J., Frieze, I. H., Smith, C., & Ryan, K. (1992). Predictors of dating violence: A multi variate analysis. Violence and Victims, 7, 297-311.  (Used CTS with 305 college students <227 women, 78 men> and found that 133 women and 43 men experienced violence in a current or recent dating relationship.  Authors reports that "women reported the expression of as much or more violence in their relationships as men."  While most violence in relationships appears to be mutual--36% reported by women, 38% by men-- women report initiating violence with non violent partners more frequently than men <22% vs 17%>).

    Brinkerhoff, M., & Lupri, E. (1988).  Interspousal violence. Canadian Journal of Sociology, 13, 407-434. (Examined Interspousal violence in a representative sample of 562 couples in Calgary, Canada. Used Conflict Tactics Scale and found twice as much wife-to-husband as husband-to-wife severe violence <10.7% vs 4.8%>.  The overall violence rate for husbands was 10.3% while the overall violence rate for wives was 13.2%. Violence was significantly higher in younger and childless couples. Results suggest that male violence decreased with higher educational attainment, while female violence increased.)

    Brown, G. (2004).  Gender as a factor in the response of the law-enforcement system to violence against partners.  Sexuality and Culture, 8, (3-4), 3-139.  (Summarizes partner violence data from the 1999 Canadian General Social Survey <GSS>.  The GSS is based on a representative sample of 25,876 persons.  Overall in the 12-month period preceding the survey, an estimated 3% Canadian women and 2% of Canadian men reported experiencing violence from their partners.  During the 5 year period from 1995-1999, an estimated 8% of Canadian women and 7% of Canadian men reported violence from their partners.  Reviewed police and legal responses to partner violence in Edmonton, Canada and concludes that ". . . men who are involved in disputes with their partners, whether as alleged victims or as alleged offenders or both, are disadvantaged and treated less favorably than women by the law-enforcement system at almost every step.")

    Brush, L. D. (1990). Violent Acts and injurious outcomes in    married couples: Methodological issues in the National Survey of Families and Households.  Gender & Society, 4, 56-67. (Used the Conflict Tactics scale in a large national survey, n=5,474, and found that women engage in same amount of spousal violence as men.)

    Brutz, J., & Ingoldsby, B. B. (1984). Conflict resolution in Quaker families.  Journal of Marriage and the Family, 46, 21-26.  (Used Conflict Tactics Scale with a sample of 288 Quakers <130 men, 158 women> and found a slightly higher rate of female to male violence <15.2%> than male to female violence <14.6%>.)

    Burke, P. J., Stets, J. E., & Pirog-Good, M. A. (1988).  Gender identity, self-esteem, and physical and sexual abuse in dating relationships.  Social Psychology Quarterly, 51, 272-285.  (A sample of 505 college students <298 women, 207 men> completed the CTS.  Authors reports that they found "no significant difference between men and women in reporting inflicting or sustaining physical abuse."  Specifically, within a one year period they found that 14% of the men and 18% of the women reported inflicting physical abuse, while 10% of the men and 14% of the women reported sustaining physical abuse.)

    Caetano, R., Schafter, J., Field, C., & Nelson, S. M. (2002).  Agreement on reports of intimate partner violence among white, Black, and Hispanic couples in the United States.  Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 17, 1308-1322.  (A probability sample of 1635 couples was interviewed and assessed with the CTS.  Agreement concerning intimate partner violence was about 40%, with no differences reported across ethnicities.  Women significantly reported perpetrating more partner violence than men in all three ethnic groups.)

    Callahan, M. R., Tolman, R. M., & Saunders, D. G. (2003).  Adolescent dating violence victimization and psychological well-being.  Journal of Adolescent Research, 18(6), 664-681.  (Subjects were 190 high school students <53% male; 47% female; approximately 50% African-American> who completed a modified version of the CTS2.  In terms of injuries, 22% of girls and 17% of boys reported being injured by their dating partners.  Note this difference was nonsignificant.)

    Capaldi, D. M. & Crosby, L. (1997).  Observed and reported psychological and physical aggression in young, at-risk couples.  Social Development, 6, 184-206.  (A sample of 118 young men and their dating partners were surveyed regarding their own physical aggression as well as that of their partners.  Findings reveal that 31% of men and 36% of women engaged "in an act of physical aggression against their current partner.")

    Capaldi, D. M, Kim, H. K., & Shortt, J. W. (2004).  Women's involvement in aggression in young adult romantic relationships.  In M. Putallaz and K. L. Bierman (Eds.).  Aggression, Antisocial Behavior, and Violence Among Girls (pp. 223-241).  New York: Guildford Press.  (A review chapter which reports on data obtained from Oregon Youth Study and Couples Study.  Authors conclude that "Young women were observed to initiate physical aggression toward their partners more frequently than were the young men."  And "the relative prevalence of frequent physical aggression by women and of injury and fear for men was surprisingly high.")

    Capaldi, D. M. & Owen, L. D. (2001).  Physical aggression in a community sample of at-risk young couples: Gender comparisons for high frequency, injury, and fear.  Journal of Family Psychology, 15 (3), 425-440.  Drawn from a community based at-risk sample, 159 young couples were assessed with the Conflict Tactics scale and measures of self reported injuries.  Findings indicated that 9.4% of men and 13.2% of women perpetrated frequent physical aggression toward their partners.  Contrary to expectations, 13% of men and 9% of women, indicated that they were physically injured at least once.  Authors report "2% of the men and none of the women indicate that they had been hurt by their partners between five and nine times."

    Carlson, B. E. (1987).  Dating violence: a research review and comparison with spouse abuse.  Social Casework, 68, 16-23.  (Reviews research on dating violence and finds that men and women are equally likely to aggress against their partners and that "the frequency of aggressive acts is inversely related to the likelihood of their causing physical injury.")

    Carney, M., Buttell, F., & Dutton, D. (in press).  Women who perpetrate intimate partner violence: A review of the literature with recommendations for treatment.  Aggression and Violent Behavior.  (An excellent review of the literature on women who perpetrate violence in intimate relationships.  Also summarizes intervention programs for such women.)

     Carrado, M., George, M. J., Loxam, E., Jones, L., & Templar, D. (1996).  Aggression in British heterosexual relationships: a descriptive analysis.  Aggressive Behavior, 22, 401-415.  (In a representative sample of British men <n=894> and women <n=971> it was found, using a modified version of the CTS, that 18% of the men and 13% of the women reported being victims of physical violence at some point in their heterosexual relationships.  With regard to current relationships, 11% of men and 5% of women reported being victims of partner aggression.)

    Cascardi, M., Langhinrichsen, J., & Vivian, D. (1992).  Marital aggression: Impact, injury, and health correlates for husbands and wives.  Archives of Internal Medicine, 152, 1178-1184.  (Examined 93 couples seeking marital therapy. Found using the CTS and other information that 71% reported at least one incident of physical aggression in past year. While men and women were equally likely to perpetrate violence, women reported more severe injuries.  Half of the wives and two thirds of the husbands reported no injuries as a result of all aggression, but wives sustained more injuries as a result of mild aggression.)

    Caulfield, M. B., & Riggs, D. S. (1992). The assessment of dating aggression: Empirical evaluation of the Conflict Tactics Scale.  Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 4, 549-558. (Used CTS with a sample of 667 unmarried college students <268 men and 399 women> and found on a number of items significantly higher responses of physical violence on part of women.  For example, 19% of women slapped their male partner while 7% of men slapped their partners, 13% of women kicked, bit, or hit their partners with a fist while only 3.1% of men engaged in this activity.)

    Cercone, J. J., Beach, S. R. H., & Arias, I. (2005).  Gender Symmetry in Dating Intimate Partner Violence: Does Behavior Imply Similar Constructs?  Violence and Victims, 20 (2) 207-218.  (A sample of 414 college students <189 men, 225 women> responded to the CTS2.  Results reveal that male and female subjects were equally likely to be perpetrators of minor violence in intimate dating relationships, but women were twice as likely as men to perpetrate severe violence <15.11% vs 7.41%>).

    Clark, M. L., Beckett, J., Wells, M., & Dungee-Anderson, D. (1994).  Courtship Violence among African-American college students.  Journal of Black Psychology, 20 (3), 264-281.  (A sample of 311 African-American college students <76 men, 235 women> responded to the CTS.  Findings reveal that 41% of men and 33% of women reported being physically abused by a dating partner.)
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 10, 2007, 09:25 PM
Claxton-Oldfield, S. & Arsenault, J. (1999). The initiation of physically aggressive behaviour by female university students toward their male partners: Prevalence and the reasons offered for such behaviors. Unpublished manuscript.  (In a sample of 168 actively dating female undergraduates at a Canadian university, 26% indicated that they initiated physical aggression toward their male partners. Most common reason for such behavior was because partner was not listening to them.)

    Cogan, R., & Ballinger III, B. C. (2006).  Alcohol problems and the differentiation of partner, stranger, and general violence.  Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 21 (7), 924-935.  (A sample of 457 college men and 958 college women completed the CTS.  Results revealed that significantly more men than women <35.4% vs 26.0%> reported being victimized by their partners.)

    Coney, N. S., & Mackey, W. C. (1999). The feminization of domestic violence in America: The woozle effect goes beyond rhetoric. Journal of Men's Studies, 8 (1), 45-58.  (Authors  review the domestic violence literature and report that while society in general as well as the media portray women as "recipients of domestic violence...epidemiological surveys on the distribution of violent behavior between adult partners suggest gender parity.")

    Cook, P. W. (1997).  Abused men.  The hidden side of domestic violence.  Westport, CN.: Praeger.  (Presents the evidence, empirical and personal, for male spousal victimization.  Examines resistance to acceptance of findings and offers solutions to reduce domestic violence.)

    Corry, C. E., Fiebert, M. S., & Pizzy, E. (2002). Controlling domestic violence against men. Available: www.familytx.org/research/Control_DV_against_men.pdf  Earlier version presented at Sixth International Conference on Family Violence, San Diego, CA. (A critical examination of men as victims of partner violence.)

    Cui, M., Lorenz, F. O., Conger, R. D., Melby, J. N., & Bryant, C. M. (2005).  Observer, Self-, and partner reports of hostile behaviors in romantic relationships.  Journal of Marriage and Family, 67, 1169-1181.  (Examined a sample of 236 young people <48% married, 52% dating; 56% women, 44% men> who completed questionnaires regarding their hostility toward their partners.  Findings reveal that couples living together have higher levels of hostility than dating couples and that women in both conditions demonstrate higher levels of hostility towards their partners than men.)

    Cunradi, C. B., Caetano, R., Clark, C. L., & Schafer, J. (1999).  Alcohol-related problems and intimate partner violence among white, Black, and Hispanic couples in the U.S.  Alcoholism: Clinical and Experimental Research, 23, 1492-1501.  (A probability sample of 1440 couples <565 white, 358 Black, 527 Hispanic> was obtained from the 1995 National Alcohol Survey.  Subjects completed the Conflict Tactics Scale.  Ethnicity results reveal that overall rates of partner aggression were similar for whites and Hispanic while Black rates were significantly higher.  In terms of gender, white men and women had similar rates of partner aggression, Hispanic women were somewhat more aggressive than Hispanic men and Black men were more aggressive than Black women.  Alcohol related problems were a predictor of intimate partner violence in Black couples.)

     Deal, J. E., & Wampler, K. S. (1986).  Dating violence: The primacy of previous experience.  Journal of Social and Personal Relationships, 3, 457-471.  (Of 410 university students <295 women, 115 men> responding to CTS and other instruments, it was revealed that 47% experienced some violence in dating relationships. The majority of experiences were reciprocal.  When not reciprocal men were three times more likely than women to report being victims.  Violent experiences in previous relationships was the best predictor of violence in current relationships.)

    DeKeseredy, W. S. & Schwartz, M. D. (1998).  Woman abuse on campus.  Results from the Canadian National survey.  Thousand Oaks, CA: Sage.  (A large sample <1,835 women; 1,307 men> of Canadian college students completed the Conflict Tactics Scale.  Results reveal that women report engaging in higher rates of violence than men.  Specifically, 46.1% of women reported engaging in some physical violence in intimate relationship since leaving high school.  With 38% employing "minor" violence and 19% employing "severe" violence.)

    DeMaris, A. (1992). Male versus female initiation of aggression: The case of courtship violence.  In E. C. Viano (Ed.), Intimate violence: interdisciplinary perspectives. (pp. 111-120).  Bristol, PA: Taylor & Francis. (Examined a sample of 865 white and black college students with regard to the initiation of violence in their dating experience.  Found that 218 subjects, 80 men and 138 women, had experienced or expressed violence in current or recent dating relationships.  Results indicate that "when one partner could be said to be the usual initiator of violence, that partner was most  often the women.  This finding was the same for both black and white respondents.")

    Dowd, L. (2001).  Female Perpetrators of Partner Aggression: Relevant Issue and Treatment.  Journal of Aggression, Maltreatment and Trauma, 5 (2), 73-104.  (A review article examining female partner aggression with a focus on treatment issues.)

    Dutton, D. G. (2006).  Rethinking Domestic Violence.  Vancouver: UBC Press.  (A thoughtful and scholarly analysis of research and treatment in the area of Domestic Violence.  Offers much insight with regard to Intimate Partner violence and men as victims.)

    Dutton, D. G. & Nicholls, T. L. (2005).  The gender paradigm in domestic violence research and theory: the conflict of theory and data.  Aggression and Violent Behavior, 10, 680-714.  (A review and analysis of the data regarding male victimization.  Critical of feminist approaches that minimize female perpetration and trivialize male injury.)

    Dutton-Greene, L. B., & Straus, M. A. (2005, July).  The relationship between gender hostility and partner violence and injury.  Paper presented at the 9th International Family Violence Research Conference, Portsmouth, NH.  (Report of findings from international dating violence Study which collected data from over 11,000 <70% women> college students from 50 universities in 21 countries.  Subjects responded to the revised Conflict Tactics scale, gender hostility scales and injury scales.  Findings reveal that women perpetrated greater partner violence than men, that women were more seriously injured than men and that hostility toward the opposite sex was significantly and similarly correlated with partner violence for men and women.)

    Ehrensaft, M. K., Moffitt, T. E., & Caspi, A. (2004).  Clinically abusive relationships in an unselected birth cohort: men's and women's participation and developmental antecedents.  Journal of Abnormal Psychology, 113 (2), 258-270.  (Assessed 980 individuals, ages 24-26, who were participants in longitudinal study in New Zealand.  Subjects were examined with the CTS, the Partner Conflict Calendar, PCC, a measure of the consequences of abuse and a variety of personality and psychopathology scales.  Findings reveal that 9% of the total sample, with an equal number of men and women, were victims of clinical abuse in their relationships with partners.)

    Ernst, A. A., Nick, T. G., Weiss, S. J., Houry, D., & Mills, T. (1997).  Domestic violence in an inner-city ED.  Annals of Emergency Medicine, 30, 190-197.  (Assessed 516 patients <233 men, 283 women> in a New Orleans inner-city emergency Department with the Index of Spousal Abuse, a scale to measure domestic violence.  Found that 28% of the men and 33% of the women <a nonsignificant difference>, were victims of past physical violence while 20% of the men and 19% of the women reported being current victims of physical violence.  In terms of ethnicity, 82% of subjects were African-American.  Authors report that there was a significant difference in the number of women vs. men who reported past abuse to the police ,19% of women, 6% of men.>)

    Farrell, W. (1999). Women can't hear what men don't say.  New York: Tarcher/Putnam.  See Chapter 6.  (Pp. 123-162; 323-329.)  (An excellent social and political analysis of couple violence.)

    Feather, N. T. (1996).  Domestic violence, gender and perceptions of justice.  Sex Roles, 35, 507-519.  (Subjects <109 men, 111 women> from Adelaide, South Australia, were presented a hypothetical scenario in which either a husband or wife perpetrated domestic violence.  Participants were significantly more negative in their evaluation of the husband than the wife, were more sympathetic to the wife and believed that the husband deserved a harsher penalty for his behavior.)

    Felson, R. B. (2002).  Violence and Gender Reexamined.  Washington, DC: American Psychological Association.  (Scholarly review and analysis of the literature.  Author concludes that, "Women are just as likely as men to be victims of violence from their partners. . . ."  Also "casts doubt on the battered wife syndrome as an explanation for why women kill their male partners.")

    Felson, R. B. (2006).  Is violence against women about women or about violence?  Contexts, 5, 21-25.  (Reports that while men are eight times more likely to commit overall violence than women, there is gender parity in partner violence.  Author suggests that violent men are "less likely to assault their partners because of the chivalry norm.")

    Fergusson, D. M., Horwood, L. J., & Ridder, E. M. (2005).  Partner violence and mental health outcomes in a New Zealand birth cohort.  Journal of Marriage and Family, 67, 1103-1119.  (Examined extent of domestic violence experience and perpetration in a sample of 828 <437 women, 391 men> young adults who were 25 years old.  Subjects were part of a long term longitudinal study and were administered the CTS2.  Results reveal that "there were more men exposed to severe domestic violence than women" and that mild and moderate rates were similar for men and women.  Overall, 39.4% of women and 30.9% of men reported perpetration scores of 3 or higher.  Authors report that men and women reported similar rates of injury <3.9% for women vs. 3.3% for men>.  In terms of initiation of partner assaults, 34% of women and 12% of men reported initiating physical assaults.)

    Fiebert, M. S., & Gonzalez, D. M. (1997).  Women who initiate assaults: The reasons offered for such behavior. Psychological Reports, 80, 583-590.  (A sample of 968 women, drawn primarily from college courses in the Southern California area, were surveyed regarding their initiation of physical assaults on their male partners.  29% of the women, n=285, revealed that they initiated assaults during the past five years. Women in their 20's were more likely to aggress than women aged 30 and above.  In terms of reasons, women appear to aggress because they did not believe that their male victims would be injured or would retaliate.  Women also claimed that they assaulted their male partners because they wished to engage their attention, particularly emotionally.)

    Fiebert, M. S. (1996). College students' perception of men as victims of women's assaultive behavior. Perceptual & Motor Skills, 82, 49-50. (Three hundred seventy one college students <91 men, 280 women> were surveyed regarding their knowledge and acceptance of the research finding regarding female assaultive behavior. The majority of subjects (63%) were unaware of the finding that women assault men as frequently as men assault women; a slightly higher percentage of women than men (39% vs 32%) indicated an awareness of this finding.  With regard to accepting the validity of these findings a majority of subjects (65%) endorsed such a result with a slightly higher percentage of  men (70% vs 64%)indicating their acceptance of this finding.)

     Flynn, C. P. (1990).  Relationship violence by women: issues and implications.  Family Relations, 36, 295-299.  (A review/analysis article that states, "researchers consistently have found that men and women in relationships, both marital and premarital engage in comparable amounts of violence."  Author also writes, "Violence by women in intimate relationships has received little attention from policy makers, the public, and until recently, researchers...battered men and abusive women have receive 'selective inattention' by both the media and researchers.")

      Follingstad, D. R., Wright, S., & Sebastian, J. A. (1991).  Sex differences in motivations and effects in dating violence.  Family Relations, 40, 51-57.  (A sample of 495 college students <207 men, 288 women> completed the CTS and other instruments including a "justification of relationship violence measure."  The study found that women were twice as likely to report perpetrating dating violence as men.  Female victims attributed male violence to a desire to gain control over them or to retaliate for being hit first, while men believed that female aggression was a based on their female partner's wish to "show how angry they were and to retaliate for feeling emotionally hurt or mistreated.")

    Foo, L., & Margolin, G. (1995).  A multivariate investigation of dating aggression.  Journal of Family Violence, 10, 351-377.  (A sample of 290 college students <111 men, 179 women> responded to the CTS.  Results reveal that 24.3% of men and 38.5% of women reported perpetrating physical violence toward their dating partners.)

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 10, 2007, 09:25 PM
 Foshee, V. A. (1996).  Gender differences in adolescent dating abuse prevalence, types and injuries.  Health Education Research, 11 (3), 275-286. (Data collected from 1965 adolescents in eighth and ninth grade in 14 schools in rural North Carolina. Results reveal that 36.5% of dating females and 39.4% of dating males report being victims of physical dating violence.  In terms of perpetrating violence 27.8% of females while only 15.0% of males report perpetrating violence.)

     Gelles, R. J. (1994). Research and advocacy: Can one wear two hats?  Family Process, 33, 93-95. (Laments the absence  of objectivity on the part of "feminist" critics of research demonstrating female perpetrated domestic violence.)

     George, M. J. (1994). Riding the donkey backwards: Men as the unacceptable victims of marital violence.  Journal of Men's Studies, 3, 137-159. (A thorough review of the literature which examines findings and issues related to men as equal victims of partner abuse.)

    George, M. J. (1999). A victimization survey of female perpetrated assaults in the United Kingdom.  Aggressive Behavior, 25, 67-79. (A representative sample of 718 men and 737 women completed the CTS and reported their experience as victims of physical assaults by women during a five year period. Men reported greater victimization and more severe assaults than did women.  Specifically, 14% of men compared to 7% of women reported being assaulted by women. Highest risk group were single men.  The majority (55%) of assaults on men were perpetrated by spouses, partners, or former partners.)

    George, M. J. (2002).  Skimmington Revisited.  Journal of Men's Studies, 10 (2), 111-127.  (Examines historical sources and finds that men who were victims of spousal aggression were subject to punishment and humiliation.  Inferences to contemporary trivialization of male victims of partner aggression is discussed.)

    George, M. J. (2003).  Invisible touch.  Aggression & Violent Behaviour, 8, 23-60.  (A comprehensive review and analysis of female initiated partner aggression.  Historical, empirical and case evidence presented to demonstrate reality of "battered husband syndrome.")

     Goldberg, W. G., & Tomlanovich, M. C. (1984).  Domestic violence victims in the emergency department.  JAMA, 251, 3259-3264.  (A sample of 492 patients <275 women, 217 men> who sought treatment in an emergency department in a Detroit hospital were survey regarding their experience with domestic violence.  Respondents were mostly African-American (78%), city dwellers (90%), and unemployed (60%).  Victims of domestic violence numbered 107 (22%).  While results indicate that 38% of victims were men and 62% were women this gender difference did not reach statistical significance.

     Gonzalez, D. M. (1997).  Why females initiate violence: A study examining the reasons behind assaults on men.  Unpublished master's thesis, California State University, Long Beach.  (225 college women participated in a survey which examined their past history and their rationales for initiating aggression with male partners.  Subjects also responded to 8 conflict scenarios which provided information regarding possible reasons for the initiation of aggression.  Results indicate that 55% of the subjects admitted to initiating physical aggression toward their male partners at some point in their lives.  The most common reason was that aggression was a spontaneous reaction to frustration).

      Goodyear-Smith, F. A. & Laidlaw, T. M. (1999). Aggressive acts and assaults in intimate relationships: Towards an understanding of the literature.  Behavioral Sciences and the Law, 17, 285-304.  (An up to date scholarly analysis of couple violence. Authors report that, "...studies clearly demonstrate that within the general population, women initiate and use violent behaviors against their partners at least as often as men."

    Graham-Kevan, N., & Archer, J. (July, 2005).  Using Johnson's domestic violence typology to classify men and women in a non-selected sample.  Paper presented at the 9th Annual Family Violence Research Conference, Portsmouth, NH.  (A total of 1339 subjects, students and staff from the University of Central Lancashire, responded to a modified version of the CTS.  Authors report that, "the proportion of women and men using any act of physical aggression towards their partners was as follows: from self-reports 29% for women and 17% for men, and from partner reports 31% of women and 22% for men.")

    Grandin, E. & Lupri, E. (1997).  Intimate violence in Canada and the United States: A cross-national comparison.  Journal of Family Violence, 12 (4), 417-443.  (Authors examine data from the 1985 U.S. National Family Violence Resurvey and the 1986 Canadian National Family Life Survey.  Report that "although the United States exhibits significantly higher rates of societal violence crime than Canada, Canadian women and men were more likely than their American counterparts to use severe and minor intimate violence."  This finding is counter to the "culture of violence theory."  Moreover, in both cultures the rates of violence of wives to husbands were higher than husbands to wives.  Specifically, the overall violence index for men in America was 10.6 and in Canada it was 18.3; while the overall violence index for women in America was 12.2 and in Canada it was 25.3.)

     Gray, H. M. & Foshee, V. (1997).  Adolescent dating violence.  Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 12, 126-142.  (A sample of 185 adolescents responded to a questionnaire about dating violence; 77 students reported being involved in physical violence in their current or most recent dating relationship.  Mutual violence was present in 66% of cases; while 26% of males and 8% of females reported being victims of violence and 29% of females and 4% of males reported being sole perpetrators of violence.)

    Gryl, F. E., Stith, S. M., & Bird, G. W. (1991).  Close dating relationships among college students: differences by use of violence and by gender.  Journal of Social and Personal Relationships, 8, 243-264.  (A sample of 280 first year college students <156 women, 124 men> at a mid-Atlantic university completed the violence sub-scale of the Conflict Tactics Scale.  Results reveal that almost 30% of the females and 23% of males reported that they had been violent in the current relationship.  Also almost 28% of women and 39% of men reported sustaining violence in their current relationship.)

    Hamel, J. (2005).  Gender Inclusive Treatment of Intimate Partner Abuse.  New York: Springer.  (Reviews the "most reliable and empirically sound research" and concludes that "men and women physically and emotionally abuse each other at equal rates. . ."  Offers a comprehensive gender inclusive treatment approach to domestic violence.)

     Hampton, R. L., Gelles, R. J., & Harrop, J. W. (1989).  Is violence in families increasing?  A comparison of 1975 and 1985 National Survey rates.  Journal of Marriage and the Family, 51, 969-980.  (Compared a sample of 147 African Americans from the 1975 National Survey with 576 African Americans from the 1985 National Survey with regard to spousal violence.  Using the CTS found that the rate of overall violence (169/1000) of husbands to wives remained the same from 1975 to 1985, while the rate of overall violence for wives to husbands increased 33% (153 to 204/1000) from 1975 to 1985.  The rate of severe violence of husbands to wives decreased 43% (113 to 64/1000) from 1975 to 1985, while the rate of severe violence of wives to husbands increased 42% (76 to 108/1000) from 1975 to 1985.  In 1985 the rate of abusive violence by black women was nearly 3 times greater than the rate of white women.)

    Harned, M. S. (2002).  A multivariate analysis of risk markers for dating violence victimization.  Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 17, 1179-1197.  (In a university sample of 874 daters <489 women, 385 men> assessed with the revised CTS, 22% of women and 21% of men reported experiencing physical aggression from dating partners.)

    Harders, R. J., Struckman-Johnson, C., Struckman-Johnson, D. & Caraway, S. J. (1998).  Verbal and physical abuse in dating relationships.  Paper presented at the meeting of American Psychological Association, San Francisco, CA.  (Surveyed 274 college students <92 men, 182 women> using a revised formed of the Conflict Tactics Scale.  Found that women were significantly more physically aggressive than men, particularly in the areas of: pushing, slapping and punching.)

    Headey, B., Scott, D., & de Vaus, D. (1999).  Domestic violence in Australia: Are women and men equally violent?  Data from the International Social Science Survey/ Australia 1996/97 was examined.  A sample of 1643 subjects (804 men, 839 women) responded to questions about their experience with domestic violence in the past 12 months.  Results reveal that 5.7% of men and 3.7% of women reported being victims of domestic assaults.  With regard to injuries results reveal that women inflict serious injuries at least as frequently as men.  For example 1.8% of men and 1.2% of women reported that their injuries required first  aid, while 1.5% of men and 1.1% of women reported that their injuries needed treatment by a doctor or nurse.

    Hendy, H. M., Weiner, K., Bakerofskie, J., Eggen, D., Gustitus, C., & McLeod, K. C. (2003).  Comparison of six models for violent romantic relationships in college men and women.  Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 18, 645-665.  (A sample of 608 students <164 men, 444 women> were surveyed with the Conflict Tactics Scale.  Results indicate that 16% of men and 26% of women report inflicting violence on their current romantic partner.)

    Henton, J., Cate, R., Koval, J., Lloyd, S., & Christopher, S. (1983).  Romance and violence in dating relationships.  Journal of Family Issues, 4, 467-482.  (Surveyed 644 high school students <351 men, 293 women> and found that abuse occurred at a rate of 121 per 1000 and appeared to be reciprocal with both partners initiating violence at similar rates.)

    Hines, D. A. & Malley-Morrison, K. (2001).  Psychological effects of partner abuse against men: a neglected research area.  Psychology of Men and Masculinity, 2, 75-85.  (A review article that examines the issue of men as victims of partner abuse.  Considers reasons why men would remain in an abusive relationship.)

    Hines, D. A. & Saudino, K. J. (2003).  Gender differences in psychological, physical, and sexual aggression among college students using the revised Conflict Tactics Scales.  Violence and Victims, 18 (2), 197-217.  (A sample of 481 college students <179 men, 302 women> responded to the revised Conflict Tactics scale.  Results indicate that 29% of men and 35% of women reported perpetrating physical aggression in their relationships.)

    Hoff, B. H. (1999).  The risk of serious physical injury from assault by a woman intimate.  A re-examination of National Violence against women survey data on type of assault by an intimate.  WWW.vix.com/menmag/nvawrisk.htm.  (A re-examination of the data from the most recent National violence against women survey (Tjaden & Thoennes, 1998) shows that "assaulted men are more likely than assaulted women to experience serious attacks by being hit with an object, beat up, threatened with a knife or being knifed.")

    Holtzworth-Munroe, A. (2005).  Female Perpetration of Physical Aggression Against an Intimate Partner: A Controversial New Topic of Study.  Violence and Victims, 20 (2), 251-259.  (Examines the changing zeitgeist, methodological issues, and research findings regarding female perpetrated violence.)

    Jackson, S. M., Cram, F. & Seymour, F. W. (2000).  Violence and sexual coercion in high school students' dating relationships.  Journal of Family Violence, 15, 23-36.  (In a New Zealand sample of senior high school students <200 women, 173 men> 21% of women and 19% of men reported having been physically hurt by their heterosexual dating partner.)

    Jenkins, S. S., & Aube, J. (2002).  Gender differences and gender-related constructs in dating aggression.  Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin, 28, 1106-1118.  (Used the CTS with a university sample of 85 dating couples.  Authors report that, "women in existing college dating relationships are more aggressive than men.")
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 10, 2007, 09:27 PM
Post more later - IF you actually read them, tomorrow should be plenty of time
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Mr. X on Jul 10, 2007, 09:31 PM
Quote from: who me
But what the heck.  You aren't going to listen.  When someone confronts you with the facts you just call them a troll among other names and then complain if you are challenged in the least; at least by someone you have decided is a female.  Because goodness know a male could never disagree with you.  You would only label them as sell outs anyway.

Its amazing you actually think these guilt trips are going to work anymore. One very strong message I promote to men is that women as a group are not worth gaining approval from. We know now your approval is merely a coin you spend to get us to do things for you and it means NOTHING. How can a group that has stopped being women a long time ago tell us what being a man is, especially when the American past time for women is to rip apart everything men are? How can a group with no morals tell us what right and wrong are? You demand we do the right thing? How would know what that is when right and wrong are fluid and subjective to you... merely tools?

Your bank is dry. You have no more coins. Run the guilt trips. Pull the anger bit. Play the hurt little girl trick. Tell us what you think a real man would do. Drop your clothes and offer sex. Dangle attention like a carrot. Barter love like its a tool. Play your BS game of getting attention without giving it out. Keep thinking caring means you lost. Do all those things because they mean nothing now. We know them for the fake efforts they really are. men will no longer seek your approval because you have a uterus. Earn it.

Bottom line is if we men do everything you want, we still lose. As Gonzokid says, you had your half century. We're getting our lives back. Go ahead and write your "Are Men Necessary" books. Don't be surprised when men decide you're not necessary.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 11, 2007, 03:12 AM


Yeah I did make a mistake trying to respond to each poster.  It's silly how you guys swarmed because someone spoke up about the violence done to pregnant women.

The thread starting article EXPLICITElY states 30% abuse rate for women AND A 40% ABUSE rate for men then just talks about what happens to the women. Isn't this exactly what you are complaining about: ignoring one sex while concentrating on the other while ignoring the bigger group that gets hurt?

Its the same with DV and violent crime. Talk ONLY about what happens to women and NOT about men even though men are the much larger victim of violent crime than women AND nealry 43% of the victims of DV (around Half) is also exactly what you are complaining about: ignoring the plight of one six while concentrating only on the other.

The arguement you return with is that men perpetrate most of these crimes which appears to be some arguement that we are supposed to ignore when men get hurt cause its a man on man thing. So we bring up 60% of child abuse is caused by women and ask should we ignore when women hurt girls cause the vast majority of abusers are women?

Sorry but you ladies have had your 40 years. We HAVE been listenning, for nearly half a century. Perhaps if women want us men to help they need to start helping us and recognize we too make horrible sacrifices and are victims in a lot of ways. But its always turned around to be about women. I've paid my price. I pay no longer and I encourage others to walk away.

If you think of women as an investment, its a sad investment with a horrible return on out dollar. We fight for your freedom, for your rights. We sacrifice and give up and in return you talk about disposing of us. That we're not needed as fathers. That we are an unnecessary cancer. That all crime and violence is out fault. That there would be no more war if one final horrible act took us from this Earth. Its clear to some of us men that we backed the wrong horse.

So you want us to worry about that 30% of abused pregnant women yet we are to ignore the larger abused 40% of men like the article did? Sorry. Not anymore. You're our equals now. Maybe you don't need help anymore and its time we help ourselves.


Who Me: This article alone THAT YOU PROVIDED examplifies my point
http://endabuse.org/resources/facts/

It ONLY describes violence AGAINST WOMEN. It only shows numbers WHEN WOMEN ARE HURT. More than likely, if we trace the numbers you'll find men come a pretty darn close to those numbers except for rape. This is a grand example of a list created to show ONLY WOMEN are victims by only discussing numbers relevant to women. Again, what you complain about: ignoring one sex while boulstering the other.


Wrong they do discuss violence to men.  Try reading what I linked before throwing your tantrum.


For example, here is the BOJ tabel of violent crime victims.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/vsxtab.htm
It shows approximately 4.9 mil women are victims of violence vs 7.68 million men. More than 1/3rd more MEN than women are victims of violent crime


Yes men are more likely to be victim of violent crime.  Of course it is perpetrated by other men the majority of the time.


This is the intimate partner data
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/intimate/victims.htm
Yes women suffer worse in THIS area but here again is an example of what you complain about. In all the areas women suffer worse, we ALL are supposed to jump to the rescue. But in the areas where men suffer more (stranger attacks, murder, brutal beatings etc) its a 'crime of man on man" and to be ignored.


No, I didn't say man on man crime should be ignored but you really aren't discussing that here.  I don't expect any of you to jump to the rescue.  Holding men as accountable as you seem to want to hold women would be a step in the right direction.




Bottom line is in certain areas women suffer more but overall MEN are the greater victims of violent crime. So how come we are ONLY to care and help in those particular areas when women are hurt and ignore some of the larger number areas where men are hurt MORE?

Also Take a look at the overall violent crime rate.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viort.htm
They have gone down SIGNIFICANTLY since 1973. Is that NOT us men helping? But of course its never enough. The black hole of "help me first and when all women are safe we can think about caring about men" will never be filled.



If you will recall 1973 was the point in time the domestic abuse laws started changing.  Thanks for bringing that up.  It's the change in the laws the forced the numbers down so dramatically.  They must be working.

Domestic abuse happens in both directions.  It seems that very few on this board are honest enough to acknowledge that.  Instead they want to complain about violence done to men specifically as long as it happens at the hands of a female.  They ignore the fact that a man is much more likely to die at the hands of another man.

They also get really irrate when it is pointed out that women are far more likely to die as a result of abuse and women are abused almost exclusively by men.

Screaming about the physical damage done to men by women while ignoring the physical damage done to women by men is like going to the emergency room for treatment of a stubbed toe and then pitching a fit because you are not examined before the gun shot victim.

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 11, 2007, 03:18 AM

Post more later - IF you actually read them, tomorrow should be plenty of time


One name after another.  Cute!

If you will notice, I cited real references from a variety of government agencies in this country.  But if you like you can post more names of men that wrote books.

It does fill space and I'm sure takes much less time than trying to really debate points of some type.  But then that would probably cut down on the foul language that you seem to enjoy using so much.

My father had a saying about the use of foul language.  He said it was symptomatic of a simple mind's inability to process a complex thought.

Looks like Dad was right.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 11, 2007, 04:16 AM


Post more later - IF you actually read them, tomorrow should be plenty of time


One name after another.  Cute!


"Shaming tactics." (http://menforjustice.net/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=39&Itemid=49) This phrase is familiar to many Men's Rights Activists.  It conjures up the histrionic behavior of female detractors who refuse to argue their points with logic.  Yet women are not the only ones guilty of using shaming tactics against men.  Male gynocentrists use them, too.

Shaming tactics are emotional devices meant to play on a man's insecurities and shut down debate.  They are meant to elicit sympathy for women and to demonize men who ask hard questions.  Most, if not all, shaming tactics are basically ad homimem attacks.

Anyway, it might be helpful to categorize the major shaming tactics that are used against men whenever a discussion arises about feminism, men's issues, romance, etc.  The following list contains descriptions of shaming tactics, some examples of quotes employing the tactics, and even color-coded aliases for mnemonic purposes.  Enjoy.


Quote
If you will notice, I cited real references from a variety of government agencies in this country.  But if you like you can post more names of men that wrote books.


I think the underlined word says it all, gents.

Why talk about WHAT is written, when you can dismiss it because it was written by an icky boy!

Government - the father/husband figure for statist feminists - is also cited as the only "real" authority.  All Hail der FaMotherland!

"Deutschland, Deustchland, uber alles...."

Quote
It does fill space and I'm sure takes much less time than trying to really debate points of some type.  But then that would probably cut down on the foul language that you seem to enjoy using so much.


Charge of Irascibility (Code Red)

Discussion: The target is accused of having anger management issues.  Whatever negative emotions he has are assumed to be unjustifiable.  Examples:

    * "You're bitter!"
    * "You need to get over your anger at women."
    * "You are so negative!"


Quote
My father had a saying about the use of foul language.  He said it was symptomatic of a simple mind's inability to process a complex thought.

Looks like Dad was right.


Charge of Puerility (Code Green) - The Peter Pan Charge

Discussion: The target is accused of being immature and/or irresponsible in some manner that reflects badly on his status as an adult male.  Examples:

    * "Grow up!"
    * "You are so immature!"
    * "Do you live with your mother?"
    * "I'm not interested in boys.  I'm interested in real men."
    * "Men are shirking their God-given responsibility to marry and bear children."


---------------------------------

Hmmm - hey, guys - looking at my card here, I think I have Feminazi Troll Bingo - What's the prize this month?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: shiva on Jul 11, 2007, 05:07 AM
@ Gonzokid:

Quote
F.O.A.D. 


Fuck Off And Die... Does that count as a personal attack?

Just curious.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 11, 2007, 05:51 AM

@ Gonzokid:

Quote
F.O.A.D. 


Fuck Off And Die... Does that count as a personal attack?

Just curious.


No more so than most of your "debates."

One Feminazi troll siding with another - no surprises here.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 11, 2007, 06:35 AM



Post more later - IF you actually read them, tomorrow should be plenty of time


One name after another.  Cute!


"Shaming tactics." (http://menforjustice.net/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=39&Itemid=49) This phrase is familiar to many Men's Rights Activists.  It conjures up the histrionic behavior of female detractors who refuse to argue their points with logic.  Yet women are not the only ones guilty of using shaming tactics against men.  Male gynocentrists use them, too.

Shaming tactics are emotional devices meant to play on a man's insecurities and shut down debate.  They are meant to elicit sympathy for women and to demonize men who ask hard questions.  Most, if not all, shaming tactics are basically ad homimem attacks.

Anyway, it might be helpful to categorize the major shaming tactics that are used against men whenever a discussion arises about feminism, men's issues, romance, etc.  The following list contains descriptions of shaming tactics, some examples of quotes employing the tactics, and even color-coded aliases for mnemonic purposes.  Enjoy.


Quote
If you will notice, I cited real references from a variety of government agencies in this country.  But if you like you can post more names of men that wrote books.


I think the underlined word says it all, gents.

Why talk about WHAT is written, when you can dismiss it because it was written by an icky boy!

Government - the father/husband figure for statist feminists - is also cited as the only "real" authority.  All Hail der FaMotherland!


You are right, the government is in on the conspiracy.  Do you realize how silly that sounds?  If you want that to be your cadence; use it well.  A tinfoil hat should be part of the uniform. 

The immaturity displayed in your responses is comical.  I'm not adverse to publications and articles written by men.  If you had bothered to even glance at what I linked you might have even noticed that fact.  Just for you enlightenment:


http://www.startribune.com/484/story/1288976.html

Quote

Pregnant women bear an untold burden of violence


More pregnant women or mothers of newborns in the U.S. die at someone's hands than of any individual medical cause, studies show.
By John Horton, Newhouse News Service
Last update: July 07, 2007 - 4:19 PM


I don't know many women that go by the name of John, do you?


"Deutschland, Deustchland, uber alles...."

Quote
It does fill space and I'm sure takes much less time than trying to really debate points of some type.  But then that would probably cut down on the foul language that you seem to enjoy using so much.


Charge of Irascibility (Code Red)

Discussion: The target is accused of having anger management issues.  Whatever negative emotions he has are assumed to be unjustifiable.  Examples:

    * "You're bitter!"
    * "You need to get over your anger at women."
    * "You are so negative!"


Quote
My father had a saying about the use of foul language.  He said it was symptomatic of a simple mind's inability to process a complex thought.

Looks like Dad was right.


Charge of Puerility (Code Green) - The Peter Pan Charge

Discussion: The target is accused of being immature and/or irresponsible in some manner that reflects badly on his status as an adult male.  Examples:

    * "Grow up!"
    * "You are so immature!"
    * "Do you live with your mother?"
    * "I'm not interested in boys.  I'm interested in real men."
    * "Men are shirking their God-given responsibility to marry and bear children."


---------------------------------

Hmmm - hey, guys - looking at my card here, I think I have Feminazi Troll Bingo - What's the prize this month?



Yeah it would be a good idea to pretend you have scored points.  It pitching fits, calling names, and using the most foul language you can dream up, is your idea of scoring points in a debate it's only because you are unable to debate.

Try rising above the standards of a middle school playground. 

What is really sad  is that you have done an excellent job of demonstrating exactly what my father's saying means.

Good job!  That should get a a gold star or something right?

You know you asked me something yesterday that I found very interesting.  You asked if I felt oppwessed.  Kind of ironic considering you are posting on a message board created so you can complain about your oppwession.

Do ya feel oppwessed?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 11, 2007, 07:28 AM
who me................please adress this.........................what about the  statistics for  violent crime against men........how can they accurately reflect what goes on???if a man shoots another man and a woman was an accomplice before the fact.........is it listed under male on male violence....I'm sure it is.............and if violent crimes like this are classified  as male on male....the stats are skewed
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 11, 2007, 07:51 AM

who me................please adress this.........................what about the  statistics for  violent crime against men........how can they accurately reflect what goes on???if a man shoots another man and a woman was an accomplice before the fact.........is it listed under male on male violence....I'm sure it is.............and if violent crimes like this are classified  as male on male....the stats are skewed


If a man shoots a man, sure it would be considered a man on man attack.   That would also apply if it were a female that pulled the trigger even if a man helped plan the crime.  Of course that would be identified as a female on male attack, wouldn't it? 

Why do you feel that change simply because a woman accompanied or even helped plan the attack if it was a man that pulled the trigger?

The stats would only reflect who perpetrated the violent act, wouldn't they?  That isn't skewing; it typically referred to as accuracy.  If the other person involved whether male or female did not take part in the violent act itself; why would they be part of the stat? 

We are discussing violent acts aren't we or do you want to add the planning of violence to the mix?

That would be a completely different set of statistics wouldn't it?

Now one more question.  I was accused earlier in the thread of responding to off topic posts.  Why are you trying to change the subject?

Isn't that what is commonly referred to as deflection?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: crystalv on Jul 11, 2007, 07:59 AM

@ Gonzokid:

Quote
F.O.A.D. 


Fuck Off And Die... Does that count as a personal attack?

Just curious.


Of course it is a personal attack.  There have been so many personal attacks (http://personal attacks) (both ways) in this thread it is sad.  There could be some good debatable material here, but emotions seem take over sometimes.

This is why I think "The Ring" could be really useful!  Dr. E could pick a few good debaters (ie people who shy away from personal attacks) and have them do a controlled debate in The Ring!

I am sure I could learn a lot from that.   :greener:

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 11, 2007, 08:09 AM


@ Gonzokid:

Quote
F.O.A.D. 


Fuck Off And Die... Does that count as a personal attack?

Just curious.


Of course it is a personal attack.  There have been so many personal attacks (http://personal attacks) (both ways) in this thread it is sad.  There could be some good debatable material here, but emotions seem take over sometimes.

This is why I think "The Ring" could be really useful!  Dr. E could pick a few good debaters (ie people who shy away from personal attacks) and have them do a controlled debate in The Ring!

I am sure I could learn a lot from that.   :greener:




(http://www.colossusblog.com/mt/archives/images/sock_puppet_theatre.jpg)
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 11, 2007, 08:15 AM


Feminazi Troll Nonsense Snipped


(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f204/hedonisticpleasureseeker/Please_Do_Not_Feed_The_Troll.jpg)
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 11, 2007, 08:18 AM
no.......I'm not trying to deflect.........and yes I do think that there should be a sperate classification for violence where the trigger is pulled by a male but the  setup/planning involves a female
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 11, 2007, 08:25 AM

no.......I'm not trying to deflect.........and yes I do think that there should be a sperate classification for violence where the trigger is pulled by a male but the  setup/planning involves a female


Would you say the same if the genders were flipped?

The stats reflect the person that carried out the attack.  I come from the standpoint that a person is responsible for their own actions.

It really doesn't wash as a defense to say, but, but, but, your honor she thought of it.

If he pulled the trigger; he carried out the violent act.  If she pulled the trigger; she carried out the violent act.

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 11, 2007, 08:33 AM
but if she is actively involved in the commision of the crime(for example she lures a vicitm into a car with the promise of a blowjob and her boyfrieend beats and robs the victim) the violent crime was not perpetrated by a man, it was perpetrated by a man and a woman working together
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 11, 2007, 08:47 AM

but if she is actively involved in the commision of the crime(for example she lures a vicitm into a car with the promise of a blowjob and her boyfrieend beats and robs the victim) the violent crime was not perpetrated by a man, it was perpetrated by a man and a woman working together


My point is and has consistently been that the statistics speak for themselves.  Men are far more likely to be the victim of a violent act than women are. 

The stats can not be denied in that order.  Nor can it be denied that men are far more likely to be the victim of a violent attack perpetrated by other men.

Until we get over this boy/girl school house attitude and deal with violence in our society.........that means not excusing it.......it also means not pointing the finger and saying he/she asked for it or he/she made them do it......then little will change.

The laws must be enforced and respected.

I don't have a problem with a woman that has beaten a child to death to pay the ultimate price for her actions.  I also feel the same way about a man that has beaten his wife to death.

Ready made excuses should not be available for either crime.   And there should be no organized group willing to make those excuses.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Virtue on Jul 11, 2007, 08:54 AM
Wow She is still trying to cash in on her gender.....trying to get something of value to her just for being female.....Just like almost every other woman brought up in western culture.  Get me off this plane thank you.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 11, 2007, 08:58 AM

Wow She is still trying to cash in on her gender.....trying to get something of value to her just for being female.....Just like almost every other woman brought up in western culture.  Get me off this plane thank you.


Translation:

I didn't know what to say since the debate is over my head so I posted this. :laughing6:
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: FP on Jul 11, 2007, 09:20 AM


Post more later - IF you actually read them, tomorrow should be plenty of time


One name after another.  Cute!

If you will notice, I cited real references from a variety of government agencies in this country.  But if you like you can post more names of men that wrote books.

It does fill space and I'm sure takes much less time than trying to really debate points of some type.  But then that would probably cut down on the foul language that you seem to enjoy using so much.

My father had a saying about the use of foul language.  He said it was symptomatic of a simple mind's inability to process a complex thought.

Looks like Dad was right.


Ahh that classic ditty. Dear ol' Dad. Father knows best. Careful now, mommy might wash your mouth out with soap.

The dirty foul simple minded version being: Obscenity is the crutch of inarticulate mutherfuckers. Far more simple and straight forward in my opinion with just enough snarkiness but no outright pomposity.

And yes, the last word should be spelled wrong. Obscenity  has a rather valid use in my opinion, usually done to express not only anger but exasperation at a complex or a simple mind's obsession with using five dollar words that lead to nowhere other than showing off one's linguistic skills in memorizing a thesaurus. Are those references real or just phony? Look at any of them? Do you trust government funded studies implicitly? Did daddy ever teach you to look for bias in what you read?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: FP on Jul 11, 2007, 09:22 AM


but if she is actively involved in the commision of the crime(for example she lures a vicitm into a car with the promise of a blowjob and her boyfrieend beats and robs the victim) the violent crime was not perpetrated by a man, it was perpetrated by a man and a woman working together


My point is and has consistently been that the statistics speak for themselves.  Men are far more likely to be the victim of a violent act than women are. 

The stats can not be denied in that order.  Nor can it be denied that men are far more likely to be the victim of a violent attack perpetrated by other men.

Until we get over this boy/girl school house attitude and deal with violence in our society.........that means not excusing it.......it also means not pointing the finger and saying he/she asked for it or he/she made them do it......then little will change.

The laws must be enforced and respected.

I don't have a problem with a woman that has beaten a child to death to pay the ultimate price for her actions.  I also feel the same way about a man that has beaten his wife to death.

Ready made excuses should not be available for either crime.   And there should be no organized group willing to make those excuses.



Great, get back to me when NOW isn't supporting wackos like the gal in Texas who killed her 5 kids. NOW being a group that gets tons of tax payer subsidies.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 11, 2007, 09:23 AM
2 things I have seen with my own eyes
1. in almost all dv cases, there is some drinking and drugging going on inthe house
2. in a neighborhood, its usually the same people lined up outside the house talking to cops, although in different combos
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 11, 2007, 09:24 AM



Post more later - IF you actually read them, tomorrow should be plenty of time


One name after another.  Cute!

If you will notice, I cited real references from a variety of government agencies in this country.  But if you like you can post more names of men that wrote books.

It does fill space and I'm sure takes much less time than trying to really debate points of some type.  But then that would probably cut down on the foul language that you seem to enjoy using so much.

My father had a saying about the use of foul language.  He said it was symptomatic of a simple mind's inability to process a complex thought.

Looks like Dad was right.


Ahh that classic ditty. Dear ol' Dad. Father knows best. Careful now, mommy might wash your mouth out with soap.

The dirty foul simple minded version being: Obscenity is the crutch of inarticulate mutherfuckers. Far more simple and straight forward in my opinion with just enough snarkiness but no outright pomposity.

And yes, the last word should be spelled wrong. Obscenity  has a rather valid use in my opinion, usually done to express not only anger but exasperation at a complex or a simple mind's obsession with using five dollar words that lead to nowhere other than showing off one's linguistic skills in memorizing a thesaurus. Are those references real or just phony? Look at any of them? Do you trust government funded studies implicitly? Did daddy ever teach you to look for bias in what you read?


Sure.

Do you believe that the Department of Justice is in on the conspiracy?

So you have more trust in biased publications that rely more on their own bias than hardcore statistics?

Maybe that makes sense for you?

Another one that just didn't know what to say I guess.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 11, 2007, 09:29 AM

2 things I have seen with my own eyes
1. in almost all dv cases, there is some drinking and drugging going on inthe house
2. in a neighborhood, its usually the same people lined up outside the house talking to cops, although in different combos


Yes, that makes sense.

I really do believe that the majority of people are good, honest individuals that would not physically harm another.

I have no doubt that the statistics we see do not take into consideration the repeat offenders.  The statisticians look at the frequency of violent acts.

I've searched using google and ask about statistics for conspiracy to commit murder and assault.  Not a single statistic from the U.S.  A few articles coming out of Sweden but of course they were looking at their culture.

Now that you have bought up that slant on the issue I'd really be interested in seeing data on the subject.   
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 11, 2007, 09:32 AM
the problem  lies in the fact that today we have a lobby-ocracy and  lobbies that are unfriendly to american men in general get a whole lot of  $$$$, as a result anything federally funded IMO is going to have a  leftist/feminist slant.........the socialists are a big prescence in the beauracracy
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 11, 2007, 09:38 AM

Sure.

Do you believe that the Department of Justice is in on the conspiracy?


Strawman.  It is you who has inserted Conspiracy, and then start knocking it down.  There need be no conspiracy.  It is a case of self interest.  Whom does it benefit?  State governments profit from the DV/Divorce/Child Support industry via federal funds.  They profit from a dependant class.  The list of bogus and bioased government studies are legion.  And so on.  And so forth.

Trust the government?  Really?  LOOL.  It is to laugh.

Bad Troll.  No Biscuit.

Quote
So you have more trust in biased publications that rely more on their own bias than hardcore statistics?


Begging the question.  Circular logic.  Which publications are biased? Specifically, why?

Bad troll.  No Biscuit.

Quote
Maybe that makes sense for you?

Another one that just didn't know what to say I guess.


Ad Hominem.

Bad troll. No Biscuit.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 11, 2007, 09:39 AM


2 things I have seen with my own eyes
1. in almost all dv cases, there is some drinking and drugging going on inthe house
2. in a neighborhood, its usually the same people lined up outside the house talking to cops, although in different combos


Yes, that makes sense.

I really do believe that the majority of people are good, honest individuals that would not physically harm another.

I have no doubt that the statistics we see do not take into consideration the repeat offenders.  The statisticians look at the frequency of violent acts.

I've searched using google and ask about statistics for conspiracy to commit murder and assault.  Not a single statistic from the U.S.  A few articles coming out of Sweden but of course they were looking at their culture.

Now that you have bought up that slant on the issue I'd really be interested in seeing data on the subject.   


most of what I know about DV comes from personal observation, and I observed that  women are in no way generally less violent than men domestically.......................and one other thing that IMO skews the stats on violence and gneder is   organized crime, which is a primarily male domain, with both the perp and victim being male; any study that includes these types of crimes IMO is skewed
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 11, 2007, 09:41 AM

most of what I know about DV comes from personal observation, and I observed that  women are in no way generally less violent than men domestically.......................and one other thing that IMO skews the stats on violence and gneder is   organized crime, which is a primarily male domain, with both the perp and victim being male; any study that includes these types of crimes IMO is skewed


Tony, check back, and you'll see she's pulling out every feminist shibboleth.  Kind of fuinny for a non-feminist who has never taken a womyn's studies class, eh?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 11, 2007, 09:44 AM


most of what I know about DV comes from personal observation, and I observed that  women are in no way generally less violent than men domestically.......................and one other thing that IMO skews the stats on violence and gneder is   organized crime, which is a primarily male domain, with both the perp and victim being male; any study that includes these types of crimes IMO is skewed


Tony, check back, and you'll see she's pulling out every feminist shibboleth.  Kind of fuinny for a non-feminist who has never taken a womyn's studies class, eh?


all I am saying is  as far as relates  to the statistics who me?, cited, those stats  when you take into consideration  the amount of male on male crime that has female accompices, and organized crime, they really say nothing  about gender and violence
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 11, 2007, 09:45 AM


most of what I know about DV comes from personal observation, and I observed that  women are in no way generally less violent than men domestically.......................and one other thing that IMO skews the stats on violence and gneder is   organized crime, which is a primarily male domain, with both the perp and victim being male; any study that includes these types of crimes IMO is skewed


Tony, check back, and you'll see she's pulling out every feminist shibboleth.  Kind of fuinny for a non-feminist who has never taken a womyn's studies class, eh?


Here, need another straw?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 11, 2007, 09:51 AM



2 things I have seen with my own eyes
1. in almost all dv cases, there is some drinking and drugging going on inthe house
2. in a neighborhood, its usually the same people lined up outside the house talking to cops, although in different combos


Yes, that makes sense.

I really do believe that the majority of people are good, honest individuals that would not physically harm another.

I have no doubt that the statistics we see do not take into consideration the repeat offenders.  The statisticians look at the frequency of violent acts.

I've searched using google and ask about statistics for conspiracy to commit murder and assault.  Not a single statistic from the U.S.  A few articles coming out of Sweden but of course they were looking at their culture.

Now that you have bought up that slant on the issue I'd really be interested in seeing data on the subject.   


most of what I know about DV comes from personal observation, and I observed that  women are in no way generally less violent than men domestically.......................and one other thing that IMO skews the stats on violence and gneder is   organized crime, which is a primarily male domain, with both the perp and victim being male; any study that includes these types of crimes IMO is skewed



I could be misunderstanding your point here.  But what I'm getting is you are looking for the accomplices/conspirators to be considered just like someone that pulled the trigger in the stats.

Do I understand your statement correctly?

Although conspiracy is a serious crime; planning is different from executing.  Do you not agree that the person pulling the trigger is a murderer?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 11, 2007, 09:55 AM
I beleive that the accomplice is just as guilty
earleir I alluded to a group of guys who I went to school with that do "set ups"; one guy has a sister who is a stripper and she takes  guys to the car/motel whatever  with promises of sex and then her brother and them rob the guy...................is she not just as violent of a criminal as he is???
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 11, 2007, 10:00 AM

I beleive that the accomplice is just as guilty
earleir I alluded to a group of guys who I went to school with that do "set ups"; one guy has a sister who is a stripper and she takes  guys to the car/motel whatever  with promises of sex and then her brother and them rob the guy...................is she not just as violent of a criminal as he is???


Wow that really is a sick combination isn't it?  Some families......go explain. :dontknow:

If she takes part in the act of violence; sure she is every bit as violent.  If not she is a conspirator.

Here again I would see it the same way if the gender roles were reversed. 

People are responsible for their own acts.  The statistics are not contrived to be warm and fuzzy.  They are just an objective look at the numbers as they exist.

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 11, 2007, 10:04 AM
I dont understand that line of thinking who me?, the robberies could not take place without her participation in the  luring and baiting.......just because she is not the one with the gun doesnt mean anything in my eyes..
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 11, 2007, 10:05 AM
Quote
If a man shoots a man, sure it would be considered a man on man attack.   That would also apply if it were a female that pulled the trigger even if a man helped plan the crime.  Of course that would be identified as a female on male attack, wouldn't it?  

Why do you feel that change simply because a woman accompanied or even helped plan the attack if it was a man that pulled the trigger?

The stats would only reflect who perpetrated the violent act, wouldn't they?  That isn't skewing; it typically referred to as accuracy.  If the other person involved whether male or female did not take part in the violent act itself; why would they be part of the stat?  

We are discussing violent acts aren't we or do you want to add the planning of violence to the mix?


A significant amount of female violence isn't being accounted for, but you bring up other areas were record keeping and law enforcement ineptitude help distort the true reality of female violence.  I don't think that all begin with Salome demanding the head of John the Baptist on a platter, but that's shows a long historical pattern of that kind of behavior.

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/WomenStillUseWeapons1.jpg)

Here's an article further elucidating the point,

http://www.glennsacks.com/domestic_violence_a_2.htm
Quote
Nor do husbands murder their wives significantly more than wives murder their husbands. A 1994 Department of Justice study analyzed 10,000 cases and found that women make up over 40 percent of those charged in familial murders. And because women who murder their husbands tend to use less detectable or traceable methods--such as poisoning (which are often ruled "heart attacks") and hiring others to do the killing (which usually aren't counted as "murders by wives" in official crime statistics), these murders are far less likely to be noticed than murders by men, which are usually committed with guns.


and

http://www.glennsacks.com/female_murders_seen.htm
Quote
As noted by author Warren Farrell, a high profile expert witness in domestic violence cases, women tend to use "hands off" methods such as smothering and poisoning, which are less traceable. When killing husbands or other adults, women often hire others to do the killing. Female murderers tend to be older than male murderers, and thus are looked upon with more trust and less suspicion.

However, according to crime journalist Patricia Pearson, author of When She Was Bad: How and Why Women Get Away With Murder, the reasons women escape punishment go far beyond the evidence (or lack of it) left at the crime scene.  Female killers, Pearson says, are often successful at turning their violent crime into victimhood by citing, among others, defenses such as Postpartum depression, Pre-Menstrual Syndrome, and Battered Wife Syndrome. According to Pearson:

"The operative assumption is that the violent woman couldn't have wanted, deliberately, to cause harm.  Therefore, if she says she was abused/coerced/insane, she probably was."

Pearson also blames male judges and law enforcement personnel and men in the media who don't take women's capacity for violence seriously and tend to make  excuses for, and cover up for, violent women.


That last quote sounds like a script for what happened in the Mary Winkler case.




Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 11, 2007, 10:12 AM

Quote
If a man shoots a man, sure it would be considered a man on man attack.   That would also apply if it were a female that pulled the trigger even if a man helped plan the crime.  Of course that would be identified as a female on male attack, wouldn't it?  

Why do you feel that change simply because a woman accompanied or even helped plan the attack if it was a man that pulled the trigger?

The stats would only reflect who perpetrated the violent act, wouldn't they?  That isn't skewing; it typically referred to as accuracy.  If the other person involved whether male or female did not take part in the violent act itself; why would they be part of the stat?  

We are discussing violent acts aren't we or do you want to add the planning of violence to the mix?


A significant amount of female violence isn't being accounted for, but you bring up other areas were record keeping and law enforcement ineptitude help distort the true reality of female violence.  I don't think that all begin with Salome demanding the head of John the Baptist on a platter, but that's shows a long historical pattern of that kind of behavior.



Here's an article further elucidating the point,

http://www.glennsacks.com/domestic_violence_a_2.htm
Quote
Nor do husbands murder their wives significantly more than wives murder their husbands. A 1994 Department of Justice study analyzed 10,000 cases and found that women make up over 40 percent of those charged in familial murders. And because women who murder their husbands tend to use less detectable or traceable methods--such as poisoning (which are often ruled "heart attacks") and hiring others to do the killing (which usually aren't counted as "murders by wives" in official crime statistics), these murders are far less likely to be noticed than murders by men, which are usually committed with guns.


and

http://www.glennsacks.com/female_murders_seen.htm
Quote
As noted by author Warren Farrell, a high profile expert witness in domestic violence cases, women tend to use "hands off" methods such as smothering and poisoning, which are less traceable. When killing husbands or other adults, women often hire others to do the killing. Female murderers tend to be older than male murderers, and thus are looked upon with more trust and less suspicion.

However, according to crime journalist Patricia Pearson, author of When She Was Bad: How and Why Women Get Away With Murder, the reasons women escape punishment go far beyond the evidence (or lack of it) left at the crime scene.  Female killers, Pearson says, are often successful at turning their violent crime into victimhood by citing, among others, defenses such as Postpartum depression, Pre-Menstrual Syndrome, and Battered Wife Syndrome. According to Pearson:

"The operative assumption is that the violent woman couldn't have wanted, deliberately, to cause harm.  Therefore, if she says she was abused/coerced/insane, she probably was."

Pearson also blames male judges and law enforcement personnel and men in the media who don't take women's capacity for violence seriously and tend to make  excuses for, and cover up for, violent women.


That last quote sounds like a script for what happened in the Mary Winkler case.







Sorry had to remove the cartoon.  They really do not add to the debate and they take up way too much space.

Yes, I agree that women that do murder use different methods from men.  Men do tend to be more direct physically speaking.  Also the average woman does not possess the physical strength of the average man.

That being said, I make no excuses for their behavior nor do I cheer the results.  They should be held to the same standard that any man would be held to on a legal level.

If a woman is being abused; let's face it she has a variety of legal options available to her.  There is no need for murder.

Winkler got away with murder as far as I'm concerned.  But then so did O.J.

See it is a knife that cuts in both directions.  As a society nobody promised fair.  We have been promised justice and in some instances that gets set aside for a variety of reasons.........none of them excusable.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 11, 2007, 10:24 AM
the point I am going to try to make  and have trying  to  is that if you take some other factors into those stats, It would paoint a different picture
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 11, 2007, 10:28 AM

the point I am going to try to make  and have trying  to  is that if you take some other factors into those stats, It would paoint a different picture


Maybe if you ignore the who that actually carried out the act of violence?

Conspiracy is a really bad thing and it is treated as such by the courts.  But it is not equal to murder.

That's my point.

It's also the reason conspiracy is not considered murder when it comes to the stats.

I do find it interesting that I'm having little success trying to research the stats on that crime though.

Have you tried to find statistics on it?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 11, 2007, 10:32 AM



most of what I know about DV comes from personal observation, and I observed that  women are in no way generally less violent than men domestically.......................and one other thing that IMO skews the stats on violence and gneder is   organized crime, which is a primarily male domain, with both the perp and victim being male; any study that includes these types of crimes IMO is skewed


Tony, check back, and you'll see she's pulling out every feminist shibboleth.  Kind of fuinny for a non-feminist who has never taken a womyn's studies class, eh?


Here, need another straw?



Let's go down the list - just for starters - of the anti-male Shaming Tactics

Charge of Irascibility

Discussion: The target is accused of having anger management issues.  Whatever negative emotions he has are assumed to be unjustifiable. 


Check

Charge of Cowardice

Discussion: The target is accused of having an unjustifiable fear of interaction with women. 


Check

Charge of Hypersensitivity

Discussion: The target is accused of being hysterical or exaggerating the problems of men (i.e., he is accused of playing "Chicken Little"). 


Check.

Charge of Puerility (Code Green) - The Peter Pan Charge

Discussion: The target is accused of being immature and/or irresponsible in some manner that reflects badly on his status as an adult male.


check

Charge of Endangerment (Code Orange) - The Elevated Threat Charge

Discussion: The target is accused of being a menace in some undefined manner.  This charge may be coupled with some attempt to censor the target.

Check

Charge of Rationalization (Code Purple) - The Sour Grapes Charge

Discussion: The target is accused of explaining away his own failures and/or dissatisfaction by blaming women for his problems.
 

Check

Charge of Fanaticism (Code Brown) - The Brown Shirts Charge

Discussion: The target is accused of subscribing to an intolerant, extremist ideology or of being devoted to an ignorant viewpoint.
 

Check

Charge of Invirility (Code Lavender)

Discussion: The target's sexual orientation or masculinity is called into question.


Check

Charge of Overgeneralization (Code Gray)

Discussion: The target is accused of making generalizations or supporting unwarranted stereotypes about women.


Not so far.

Charge of Misogyny (Code Black)

Discussion: The target is accused of displaying some form of unwarranted malice to a particular woman or to women in general.


Check

Charge of Instability (Code White) - The White Padded Room Charge

Discussion: The target is accused of being emotionally or mentally unstable.
 

Check

Charge of Selfishness (Code Silver)

Discussion: This attack is self-explanatory.  It is a common charge hurled at men who do not want to be bothered with romantic pursuits.[/i

Not yet

Charge of Superficiality (Code Gold) - The All-That-Glitters Charge

Discussion: The charge of superficiality is usually hurled at men with regard to their mating preferences.

Not Yet

Charge of Unattractiveness (Code Tan) - The Ugly Tan Charge

Discussion: The target is accused of having no romantic potential as far as women are concerned.
 

Check

Charge of Defeatism (Code Maroon)

Discussion: This shaming tactic is akin to the Charge of Irascibility and the Charge of Cowardice in that the accuser attacks the target's negative or guarded attitude about a situation.  However, the focus is not so much on the target's anger or fear, but on the target's supposed attitude of resignation.


Your opening gambit, in fact.

Threat of Withheld Affection (Code Pink) - The Pink Whip

Discussion: The target is admonished that his viewpoints or behavior will cause women to reject him as a mate.
 

Check.


You can run, but you can't hide.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 11, 2007, 10:32 AM
not really....I have followed a few cases locally, usually if they involved someone I knew or knew of. I wouldnt be suprised if  stats on men and women who conspired in the  commission of a violent crime werent availible
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 11, 2007, 10:34 AM

not really....I have followed a few cases locally, usually if they involved someone I knew or knew of. I wouldnt be suprised if  stats on men and women who conspired in the  commission of a violent crime werent availible


Using my search results as evidence I would have to agree with you on that.

I would also be willing to bet that the crime of conspiracy would be pretty evenly split between the sexes.  Of course that's only a guess on my part.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 11, 2007, 10:41 AM
Quote
People are responsible for their own acts.  The statistics are not contrived to be warm and fuzzy.  They are just an objective look at the numbers as they exist.



Enormous Hogwash!

Police are trained by biased gender feminist trainers through VAWA STOP grants to be misandrist bigots and they are.

Mandatory arrest is police code for "Arrest the man" so stop lying about it.
Mandatory arrest is police code for "Excuse the violent woman" so stop lying about it.

http://www.glennsacks.com/nowhere_to_go.htm
Quote
Crime statistics indicate large imbalances in the number of domestic violence  incidents against men and women largely because, as studies have shown,  an abused woman is many times more likely to report abuse than an abused man. Many men hesitate to call the police because they assume, often correctly, that the police will automatically treat them as if they are the perpetrator.


# If the police spent as much time looking for real evidence of domestic violence as they do looking for rationalizations to fit their gender profiling prejudices,

# If the police spent as much time looking for real evidence of domestic violence as they do fabricating evidence to fit their gender profiling prejudices,

# If the police spent as much time looking for real evidence of domestic violence as they do destroying (or ignoring) real evidence to fit their gender profiling prejudices,

then there wouldn't be nearly so many men being railroaded in our gender bigoted courts and having their lives destroyed by false accusations of domestic violence.
 

We have the domestic violence industry's gender biased, domestic violence trainers largely to thank for the hate war on men being waged by our gender feminist trained police, prosecutors and judges (the unholy trinity).  America's police, prosecutors and judges (the unholy trinity) are trained by biased gender feminists to be man-hating bigots - and they are.

http://www.glennsacks.com/baseball_players_domestic.htm (http://www.glennsacks.com/baseball_players_domestic.htm)

Baseball Player's Domestic Violence Arrest Demonstrates How Men are Presumed Guilty in Domestic Disputes
By Glenn Sacks

Quote
Domestic violence activist Greg Schmidt, a police lieutenant who created the Seattle police department's domestic violence investigation unit in 1994, says that cases like Erickson's demonstrate the way men are often presumed guilty in domestic disputes.  He notes that mandatory arrest laws, such as California's, frustrate police officers because they are "expected to make arrests in petty incidents, often where the woman is the aggressor, the abuse is mutual, or it is unclear who the aggressor was."

"The domestic violence industry--the trainers, the shelter directors, etc.--can spin things however they want," he says, "but most street cops know that women are just as likely to start domestic disputes as men are.  But arresting women puts you under lot of scrutiny.  It's bad for your career."

Schmidt also criticizes the dominant aggressor doctrine which discourages dual arrests (which are often an appropriate measure) and instructs police to downplay who struck the first blow. Instead, police are asked to focus on who is (supposedly) in control of the situation and who is more fearful--often code words for "arrest the man."

Part of the problem is the training that police officers receive from the domestic violence industry, which insists that 95% of domestic violence is committed by men. Southern California domestic violence consultant Anne O'Dell, who has conducted over 500 domestic violence trainings of police officers and commanders, judges, district attorneys, and victim advocates, tells her trainees that "if a police officer is arresting more than 8% women, you've got a real problem.  When an officer arrests 12% or 15% women, I'm outraged." O'Dell says that dual arrests should occur in no more than 3% of incidents.


http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2005/0316blumhorst.html
"Why, oh why, should that be the case? Shouldn't the police be arresting people based on the evidence they find, and not on some arbitrary goal established by domestic violence industry trainers who advocate "arrest goals" for men?"

Police, prosecutors and judges are all trained (indoctrinated) into gender feminists' Stalinist ideology through STOP grants funded by the Violence Against Women Act  (VAWA).  Police with their Stalinist mandatory arrest policy, and/or prosecutors with their no drop/mandatory prosecution policy:  fabricate, destroy, and withhold evidence as it suits their profiling prejudices and career motivations.

Judges (like the devil personified) add refinement to the depth of the deception, with the ultimate hypocrisy carried out through a court room deception, wherein they pretend to dispense justice. The judge carries out his unconstitutional rape of constitutional law, knowing full well the systematic misandry that has lead to his courtroom and the lack of due process that is taking place.  Once inside the Judges Star Chamber, this black robed Satan, merely serves as a pimp for gender feminist laws/totalitarianism, dispensing decisions in compliance with the wishes of the gender feminist court watchers - unless you've got some really big bucks to head off the onrushing trainwreck..

Like any pimp who sells his ho's, the Judge is ultimately just a low-life street hustler all dressed up in fancy clothes, a mockery of all people who actually have integrity and class.


Amerika now has the highest rate of incarceration in the world, having passed Russia, and 93% of the prison population is male.  Jerry Brown, CA's present AG has stated the following,

Quote
"So we are being systematically trained to fear this false "rising crime" tide. This is all part of a system to lock up more people [men], and impose more control and surveillance." - "Jerry Brown on Crime Control." October/November 1995. http://www.sonic.net/~doretk/index.html.


and

Quote
"But the dark evil geniuses who run this country have figured out another use for these surplus people - arrest them in the war on drugs or the war on crime and put them into prison, adding to the gross domestic product!" "Jerry Brown on Crime Control." October/November 1995. http://www.sonic.net/~doretk/index.html


and

Quote
"The U.S. incarceration binge is not tied to crime. It's a strategy to control the surplus population in a capitalist system that is breaking down." Waldman, Peter. "Back to Earth: Jerry Brown, the Voice of New-Age Populism, Gets Down to Business." Wall Street Journal. August 10, 1999.


VAWA seems to be one of the primary hate weapons, if not the primary hate weapon to criminalize American males.

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/TruckSigns1/d51cbaae.jpg)

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/TruckSigns1/66349c86.jpg)

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/TruckSigns1/a60f57ee.jpg)

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/TruckSigns1/f0e12d36.jpg)

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/TruckSigns1/2f97a3df.jpg)

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/TruckSigns1/02085958.jpg)
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 11, 2007, 10:43 AM
depends........if you only did a study on domestic/small scale street crime, probably even or with a slight bias toward females
on a higher level, oganized-crime type thing, it would  probably be almost exclusively male
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 11, 2007, 10:46 AM

depends........if you only did a study on domestic/small scale street crime, probably even or with a slight bias toward females
on a higher level, oganized-crime type thing, it would  probably be almost exclusively male


The stats are typically divided out by gender, maybe age in some instances, or even geographic location.

But I do understand the point you are trying to make.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 11, 2007, 10:46 AM
And here's more supporting evidence of the corruption in the gender feminist run domestic violence programs and dis-services:

http://www.glennsacks.com/blog/index.php?tag=abused-men
Quote
'I spent 23 years as a counselor... Arrests, prosecutions and sentencing in domestic violence cases are primarily based on gender, not on behavior'
June 2nd, 2007
"I spent 23 years as a counselor including 12 years as a probation counselor. Arrests, prosecutions and sentencing in domestic violence cases are primarily based on gender, not on behavior. It is so ingrained into the system that the authorities usually do not know that they are being prejudicial. Very few cases of domestic violence fit the profile presented in the popular media or used in treatment programs for men."

An interesting letter in the Vancouver Columbian about domestic violence arrest policies.

System prejudicial

I commend Ron Jones for having the courage to say that which is politically incorrect regarding domestic violence. Jones' May 18 letter, "Men victimized, too," pointed out that domestic violence has been promoted as a male against female problem. I suggest that the problem is far worse and far more endemic.

I spent 23 years as a counselor including 12 years as a probation counselor. Arrests, prosecutions and sentencing in domestic violence cases are primarily based on gender, not on behavior. It is so ingrained into the system that the authorities usually do not know that they are being prejudicial.

Very few cases of domestic violence fit the profile presented in the popular media or used in treatment programs for men. The result is that the programs in place successfully meet certain political objectives, but in doing so damage the relationship between men and women. I am convinced that these programs increase the level of family dysfunction.

The way to change the end result is simple. The system and the people running it become honest. I found that both those presented as perpetrators of domestic violence and those who were supposed victims were nearly always honest about their behavior. It is those in authority who operate by a political agenda.

Ron Austin
Vancouver

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 11, 2007, 10:49 AM
MRA,
I haven't lied about a single thing here. 

The reason I did not quote you is because with all the space you managed to take up you really said nothing.

If you do not agree with the stats, that's fine.  Live in that universe that says everyone is out to get you.  I would think it would be very tiring but you are welcome to your choice all the same.

But do not pretend to know didilly about me.  Respond to what I post not what you seem to dream that I've posted.

Ok?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 11, 2007, 10:50 AM

And here's more supporting evidence of the corruption in the gender feminist run domestic violence programs and dis-services:

http://www.glennsacks.com/blog/index.php?tag=abused-men
Quote
'I spent 23 years as a counselor... Arrests, prosecutions and sentencing in domestic violence cases are primarily based on gender, not on behavior'
June 2nd, 2007
"I spent 23 years as a counselor including 12 years as a probation counselor. Arrests, prosecutions and sentencing in domestic violence cases are primarily based on gender, not on behavior. It is so ingrained into the system that the authorities usually do not know that they are being prejudicial. Very few cases of domestic violence fit the profile presented in the popular media or used in treatment programs for men."

An interesting letter in the Vancouver Columbian about domestic violence arrest policies.

System prejudicial

I commend Ron Jones for having the courage to say that which is politically incorrect regarding domestic violence. Jones' May 18 letter, "Men victimized, too," pointed out that domestic violence has been promoted as a male against female problem. I suggest that the problem is far worse and far more endemic.

I spent 23 years as a counselor including 12 years as a probation counselor. Arrests, prosecutions and sentencing in domestic violence cases are primarily based on gender, not on behavior. It is so ingrained into the system that the authorities usually do not know that they are being prejudicial.

Very few cases of domestic violence fit the profile presented in the popular media or used in treatment programs for men. The result is that the programs in place successfully meet certain political objectives, but in doing so damage the relationship between men and women. I am convinced that these programs increase the level of family dysfunction.

The way to change the end result is simple. The system and the people running it become honest. I found that both those presented as perpetrators of domestic violence and those who were supposed victims were nearly always honest about their behavior. It is those in authority who operate by a political agenda.

Ron Austin
Vancouver




I'm sure that is really important in Vancouver.

Are you Canadian?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Mr. X on Jul 11, 2007, 10:51 AM
Guys let the thread die. Nothing is getting accomplished here. All that's going to happen is someone is going to get goaded into saying something mean or radical and then it'll be used to show that men are evil.

This is an attention grab and nothing more. Men all scrambling to prove themselves. Don't fall for it. I think a lot of people have made their case. Move on. Let the other person have the last word since its meaningless.

We all know the guilt trips, labels and an emotional pleas are just false manipulation tactics. The big step is men have to wake up and stop trying to prove themselves to women. They are NOT worth it. Its pretty apparent that logical and rational arguements will not work and they are certainly NOT motivated by emotional pleas to care. Its quite simple. Men care about women more than they care about us.

Our recourse is to treat them as the unreasonable people they are. If rational debate and logical arguements don't work then nothing else will, certianly not temper tantrums and threats which is what women want us to resort to so they can scream foul.

We have alternatives:
1. Deny victim status to women. They aren't victims. They have proven they aren't. Don't cater to it. They won't see you as victims so why see them as victims. If they are empowered, strong willed and independant then they aren't victims.
2. Do not seek their approval. Make your logical arguement and move on. If they refuse to listen then just expose them for the irrational people they are. They are nothing to be proven to because they have a uterus. Don't do business with irrational people.
3. Do not help them unless they recipricate with an equal amount of help.
4. Do not pedistalize them and treat them as special. Give them the equality they want and deserve. Treat them as the faceless, nameless gray people they are. Denounce all special rules and considerations. Make them shovel coal like all the rest of us.
5. Define yourself by objective standards, not by the approval of women. Modern women don't know what it means to be either sex so how can they define your manhood for you. Their approval is meaningless. Find objective standards, that don't include women, to define yourself. You are a man, period and be a man if every woman on the planet hates you for it. Women are not the dipsticks that measure manhood and they are now out of the equation.
6. Quit selling out your fellow man to get some angel wings or man merit badge. You won't get that pat on the back. You won't get that male approval. All you are doing is selling out people who WILL help you in the future. Seeking the approval of women by selling men out is just selfish ego placation and that makes you the real bad guy. Have some dignity.
7. Hold women accountable for their actions as your equals. Don't let female criminals slide. Don't let bad girls be bad.
8. Stop thinking with your penis. You have sex with one of them and its like having sex with all of them cause that's EXACTLY the way women think about men.
9. Realize you have NOTHING to lose by doing the above. You already don't get attention. You are already the bad guy. You can never get out of the dog house. No matter how much you help they won't help or care about you unless you have some special quality that interests them (money, looks, power). Look at the men who do help women. Do they get anywhere? Why help someone who will never help you. What do you have to lose by not cooperating.

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 11, 2007, 11:10 AM
Quote
Respond to what I post not what you seem to dream that I've posted.


The vast majority of your posts are enormous lies based on gender feminist propaganda, plain and simple, and you use patronizing ad hominem attacks in one abusive post after another.  Shame on you.  You are seriously in need of professional help for your vile abusiveness.   As stated earlier, "You can't handle the truth," but that's no surprise for someone who is as much of an apologist and advocate for vile, corrupt, gender feminist, domestic violence ideology as you are.

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/DomesticViolenceAdvocatesFabricateF.jpg)
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 11, 2007, 11:14 AM
who me?, woudl you agree that  bigger factors in intimite partner/ family violence; there are other factors way more important  than gender, half of the abused/abusers are
a)dope fiends
b) violent themselves(how many dv victims have charges  of similar things themselves)
c)already have a history of violence with the other party
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 11, 2007, 11:18 AM

Quote
Respond to what I post not what you seem to dream that I've posted.


The vast majority of your posts are enormous lies based on gender feminist propaganda, plain and simple, and you use patronizing ad hominem attacks in one abusive post after another.  Shame on you.  You are seriously in need of professional help for your vile abusiveness.


Your idea of abusive is very interesting.  I'm debating ideas and that offends your sensibilities?  Something you may not have bothered to notice is the lack of foul language or maybe it's the lack of you are a.......that some of your regulars seem to enjoy posting.  You won't find that in my posts.  Yet you label them abusive?

Something else you may not have noticed since you have been so busy bursting blood vessels; I haven't taken a single reference from anything other than governmental sites and well known news agencies.

You on the other hand can not seem to link anything other that men's rights type sites.  Noooo, they wouldn't be biased for anything would they?  Of course there is the use fo the word hogwash with nothing to back it other than the 3" letter rants and the silly cartoons.

Try substance.  It works.  If it's beyond your abilities of course you can go with Mr. X's marching orders.

Why think for yourself when you can get someone to do it for you?

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 11, 2007, 11:19 AM

who me?, woudl you agree that  bigger factors in intimite partner/ family violence; there are other factors way more important  than gender, half of the abused/abusers are
a)dope fiends
b) violent themselves(how many dv victims have charges  of similar things themselves)
c)already have a history of violence with the other party


Yes to all of the above.

May I add one for your consideration?

d) A family history of domestic violence.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 11, 2007, 11:23 AM
I'll say yes to that

my point is that  that many victims of violence perpetrated by males are  actually victims of a male and female working together.  the factors in abusive reltionships(espcally  the mutually abusive ones) are the same
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 11, 2007, 11:24 AM
Here's a new study, this one from the University of Washington, that further questions the corrupt statistics coming out of Amerika's evil domestic violence legal system (industry)-  Opps!  Somehow the truth still squeaks through the d.v. industry "lace curtain":

http://uwnews.washington.edu/ni/article.asp?articleID=34626
Quote
The study also found no independent link between an individual's use of alcohol or drugs and committing domestic violence. In addition it showed that nearly twice as many women as men said they perpetrated domestic violence in the past year including kicking, biting or punching their partner, threatening to hit or throw something at their partner, and pushing, grabbing or shoving their partner.

Data from the study came from the on-going Seattle Social Development Project which has been tracing youth development and the social and antisocial behavior of more than 800 participants. It began when they were in the fifth grade and continues to follow them into adulthood.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 11, 2007, 11:28 AM
Quote
You on the other hand can not seem to link anything other that men's rights type sites.  Noooo, they wouldn't be biased for anything would they?


So you don't consider my postings from HHS and CDC to be governmental agencies, and you use impertinent (snotty) ad hominem attacks like "bursting blood vessels" constantly, then you try to excuse away saying you didn't use profanity.  Stop lying, you are a classic abuser and need professional help for your verbal battery.  You exhibit all the classic signs of a batterer who is escalating their abusiveness.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 11, 2007, 11:31 AM

Here's a new study, this one from the University of Washington, that further questions the corrupt statistics coming out of Amerika's evil domestic violence legal system (industry)-  Opps!  Somehow the truth still squeaks through the d.v. industry "lace curtain":

http://uwnews.washington.edu/ni/article.asp?articleID=34626
Quote
The study also found no independent link between an individual's use of alcohol or drugs and committing domestic violence. In addition it showed that nearly twice as many women as men said they perpetrated domestic violence in the past year including kicking, biting or punching their partner, threatening to hit or throw something at their partner, and pushing, grabbing or shoving their partner.

Data from the study came from the on-going Seattle Social Development Project which has been tracing youth development and the social and antisocial behavior of more than 800 participants. It began when they were in the fifth grade and continues to follow them into adulthood.




Would you like to take the time to research my posts?  You can then quote the post where I've stated women never abuse men.

You don't have to hurry or anything.  I'm willing to wait.

To be very honest you may need more than 800 participants to get an accurate read on anything.

So you are willing to take the word on a 800 participant study but want to ignore crime statistics that have been kept for decades.

Yep, I guess that could make sense to someone.

The tinfoil is protecting from the radio waves isn't it?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 11, 2007, 11:36 AM

Quote
You on the other hand can not seem to link anything other that men's rights type sites.  Noooo, they wouldn't be biased for anything would they?


So you don't consider my postings from HHS and CDC to be governmental agencies, and you use impertinent (snotty) ad hominem attacks like "bursting blood vessels" constantly, then you try to excuse away saying you didn't use profanity.  Stop lying, you are a classic abuser and need professional help for your verbal battery.  You exhibit all the classic signs of a batterer who is escalating their abusiveness.


The only ad hominem attacks have been posted by people like you.  Saying you may burst a vessel isn't an attack......or are you that thin skinned?

Nope, not a classic abuser by any measure.  I'm a pretty good debater that you are having a problem with.  That doesn't make me an abuser by any measure.

If you will bother to read back, when I used CDC stats I got the lecture on conspiracies and such.  So now you are going to use them?

Oh, you may need to know..........the posts you make in 3" letters complete with the cute cartoons do not get read.  I figure if you are sure of what you are saying you can do it on an adult level.  Otherwise I take it for the childish drivel it appears to be and just scroll on by.

So if you have some real statistics and a real debate point please post it on a serious level.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 11, 2007, 11:36 AM
only libtards wear tinfoil hat's :greener:  

  anyway  another thing who me?.......................how are incidents of batter, etc classified if it is mutual or multi party violence; I have seen some bad ass family brawls before..........how is that classified
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 11, 2007, 11:39 AM
Quote
The tinfoil is protecting from the radio waves isn't it?


Have you checked yourself into a batterers treatment program yet for all of your impertinent (snotty), patronizing, vilifications, and ad hominem attacks, i.e. "tinfoil"?  You might also try liars anonymous while your at it.  It has been explained to you that gender feminist advocacy research has driven the corrupt domestic violence industry, but obviously you are in need of help in dealing with your cognitive functions as well as other problem areas.  Please seek professional help.

Sitting around in women's studies circles, engaging in "women's ways of knowing," using anecdotes to drive lies and promote propaganda that sets up a Stalinist domestic violence law system is not healthy for humanity and certainly the statistics coming out of such a pogrom are not, repeat ARE NOT, reliable.  Get a grip on reality.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 11, 2007, 11:43 AM
Quote
Oh, you may need to know..........the posts you make in 3" letters complete with the cute cartoons do not get read.  I figure if you are sure of what you are saying you can do it on an adult level.  Otherwise I take it for the childish drivel it appears to be and just scroll on by.


Obviously, you are so obtuse you fail to comprehend the facts so I was trying to make it more palitable for your retarded level mental functions, but you don't have to tell me you don't read them, even when in enlarged type.  Your substadard comprehension level is more than apparent in the moronic gender feminist drivel you spew for all to see.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 11, 2007, 11:43 AM

only libtards wear tinfoil hat's :greener:  

  anyway  another thing who me?.......................how are incidents of batter, etc classified if it is mutual or multi party violence; I have seen some bad ass family brawls before..........how is that classified


Nah, libs don't have the corner on that market.  There are plenty of conspiracy nuts to represent both sides of the political aisle.

Here I go getting ready to blow what is probably a widely held assumption by some of the forum..........I'm as conservative as they come. :greener:

In response to your question.....I have no idea.........maybe mutual abuse?

I would hope everyone involved would be charged.

Am I glad I haven't had this experience.  Maybe coming from a really normal family background is a really good thing.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 11, 2007, 11:47 AM

Quote
Oh, you may need to know..........the posts you make in 3" letters complete with the cute cartoons do not get read.  I figure if you are sure of what you are saying you can do it on an adult level.  Otherwise I take it for the childish drivel it appears to be and just scroll on by.


Obviously, you are so obtuse you fail to comprehend the facts so I was trying to make it more palitable for your retarded level mental functions, but you don't have to tell me you don't read them, even when in enlarged type.  Your substadard comprehension level is more than apparent in the moronic gender feminist drivel you spew for all to see.



And you call my posts abusive? :laughing6: :laughing6: :laughing6:
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 11, 2007, 11:49 AM
Quote
I'm a pretty good debater that you are having a problem with.  That doesn't make me an abuser by any measure.


Actually, when you lie as you have been doing that makes you a completely incompetent debater.  Considering the harm your lies do to innocent people that makes your speech abusive.  Considering your persistence in spewing ignorance, even after being confronted with the truth, that simply makes your assertations all the more foolish.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 11, 2007, 11:54 AM

Quote
I'm a pretty good debater that you are having a problem with.  That doesn't make me an abuser by any measure.


Actually, when you lie as you have been doing that makes you a completely incompetent debater.  Considering the harm your lies do to innocent people that makes your speech abusive.  Considering your persistence in spewing ignorance, even after being confronted with the truth, that simply makes your assertations all the more foolish.


I've not lied about a thing.  I've used links to prove my claims and I didn't even have to pull up a single editorial or a reference from another country.  Now if you feel I've no right to my own opinions........oh well.  You don't get to decide what I may or may not think.

You haven't bothered to confront me with anything other than insults, cartoons, and reeeeeeeeeally big letters.  If that's your idea of debate, maybe you need to study up a bit because your skills are horribly lacking.

Could it be the side affect of only posting on boards that you know the majority of people with agree with whatever you throw up on the screen?  Could be.

I'm sorry if I've hurt your feewings or made you feel oppwessed as Gonzo puts it.

Maybe tomorrow will be a better day for you.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 11, 2007, 11:55 AM
Quote
And you call my posts abusive?


Yes, at this point, more emphatic language is needed to deal with your escalating abusiveness, or do you in typically gender feminist, bigoted style think males have no right to defend themselves from escalating, vile, gross verbal abuse such as yours?  You have been battering me with your impertinent (snotty), vilifying ad hominem attacks for many, many pages now and if Dr. E feels that such behavior is acceptable then I ,who do not, will verbally defend myself from your abusive verbal batterings.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Virtue on Jul 11, 2007, 11:56 AM
Gonz,

Would you mind if I used your post about typical feminist responses?....I promise I will give you credit =)
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 11, 2007, 12:02 PM
Quote
I've not lied about a thing.  I've used links to prove my claims and I didn't even have to pull up a single editorial or a reference from another country.  Now if you feel I've no right to my own opinions........oh well.  You don't get to decide what I may or may not think.

You haven't bothered to confront me with anything other than insults, cartoons, and reeeeeeeeeally big letters.  If that's your idea of debate, maybe you need to study up a bit because your skills are horribly lacking.

Could it be the side affect of only posting on boards that you know the majority of people with agree with whatever you throw up on the screen?  Could be.

I'm sorry if I've hurt your feewings or made you feel oppwessed as Gonzo puts it.
Maybe tomorrow will be a better day for you.


In your representation of gender feminist viewpoints, all you've done is lie, and that has been consistent and constant.   I'm having a great day, and my feelings are not hurt in the least, thank you very much, but it appears you have nothing of any substance to convey so you hurl belittling, shaming insults in an effort to have some ground.  Sadly, in your pathetic attempts at insults, you have revealed you have not veracity or integrity - but that's been overwhelmingly clear for some time now hasn't it?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 11, 2007, 12:07 PM
Quote
"I'm a pretty good debater
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/Squirrel2.jpg)
that you are having a problem with."


You Da Squirrel!!! :laughing6: :laughing6: :laughing6: :laughing6:
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 11, 2007, 12:12 PM

Quote
I've not lied about a thing.  I've used links to prove my claims and I didn't even have to pull up a single editorial or a reference from another country.  Now if you feel I've no right to my own opinions........oh well.  You don't get to decide what I may or may not think.

You haven't bothered to confront me with anything other than insults, cartoons, and reeeeeeeeeally big letters.  If that's your idea of debate, maybe you need to study up a bit because your skills are horribly lacking.

Could it be the side affect of only posting on boards that you know the majority of people with agree with whatever you throw up on the screen?  Could be.

I'm sorry if I've hurt your feewings or made you feel oppwessed as Gonzo puts it.
Maybe tomorrow will be a better day for you.


In your representation of gender feminist viewpoints, all you've done is lie, and that has been consistent and constant.   I'm having a great day, and my feelings are not hurt in the least, thank you very much, but it appears you have nothing of any substance to convey so you hurl belittling, shaming insults in an effort to have some ground.  Sadly, in your pathetic attempts at insults, you have revealed you have not veracity or integrity - but that's been overwhelmingly clear for some time now hasn't it?


Oh so you are one of those posters that spew the verbal abuse and then tries to pretend you didn't do it?  The cool thing about message boards is the fact that posts are there for anyone to read.

You also seem to suffer from this delusion that anyone that challenges your thoughts automatically fits in a certain category....i.e......feminist.  That's really narrow in scope but if it makes you feel better....enjoy I guess.

Yeah, I've talked down to you a few times.  That I'll admit.  Considering the posts you try so hard to pass off as anything other than the insults they are........don't you even begin to understand you are only getting just what you are trying to dish out?

Now if you feel I need to adhere to a different standard than the one you seem to hold so dear for yourself; please feel free to report me for this horrible abuse you feel you have been a victim to.

Oh wait..........you are playing the victim card.


Is that the sound of MRA sheepishly whispering the word.....uncle?

If you would chill out long enough to get to know new posters you maybe astounded at what you may learn.  But since you choose to label me to make you feel better.....you won't learn a thing.

What a shame to live in that one-dimensional universe you have chosen for yourself.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 11, 2007, 12:25 PM
you might not realize it, but by conceding certian points, you have validated my point that the stats  you  posted don't paint a completely accurate picture of domestic violence or violence in general;
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 11, 2007, 12:39 PM

you might not realize it, but by conceding certian points, you have validated my point that the stats  you  posted don't paint a completely accurate picture of domestic violence or violence in general;



No.  The stats are the stats.  Like I said early on they are not meant to be warm and fuzzy.  They are the hard numbers that are kept to track the frequency of certain events and just who it was that perpetrated the violence.

Conceding that domestic violence sometimes runs in families does not change the numbers.

It is still a fact that more than 60% of the attacks on men are perpetrated by men.  Less than 10% of the violent attacks on men are perpetrated by women.

I only agreed on some of the underlying extenuating circumstances around attacks.

Why you have this need to deny the facts is a bit difficult for me to understand.

Could it be you too want to use the victim card?  You can use it.  Go right ahead.

If you prefer to ignore the data; your problem not mine.  But it doesn't change the data.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 11, 2007, 12:44 PM
Quote
Less than 10% of the violent (domestic violence) attacks on men are perpetrated by women.


http://www.truthaboutdeception.com/confront_a_liar/public/pathological-compulsive.html
Quote
A pathological liar is usually defined as someone wholies incessantly to get their way and does so with little concern for others. Pathological lying is often viewed as coping mechanism developed in early childhood and it is often associated with some other type of mental health disorder. A pathological liar is often goal-oriented (i.e., lying is focused - it is done to get one's way). Pathological liars have little regard or respect for the rights and feelings of others. A pathological liar often comes across as being manipulative, cunning and self-centered.

Compulsive Liar

A compulsive liar is defined as someone who lies out of habit. Lying is their normal and reflexive way of responding to questions. Compulsive liars bend the truth about everything, large and small. For a compulsive liar, telling the truth is very awkward and uncomfortable while lying feels right. Compulsive lying is usually thought to develop in early childhood, due to being placed in an environment where lying was necessary. For the most part, compulsive liars are not overly manipulative and cunning (see, Pathological Liar), rather they simply lie out of habit - an automatic response which is hard to break and one that takes its toll on a relationship (see, how to cope with a compulsive liar).

The terms Habitual Liar and Chronic Liar are often used to refer to a Compulsive Liar.

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 11, 2007, 12:46 PM


you might not realize it, but by conceding certian points, you have validated my point that the stats  you  posted don't paint a completely accurate picture of domestic violence or violence in general;



No.  The stats are the stats.  Like I said early on they are not meant to be warm and fuzzy.  They are the hard numbers that are kept to track the frequency of certain events and just who it was that perpetrated the violence.

Conceding that domestic violence sometimes runs in families does not change the numbers.

It is still a fact that more than 60% of the attacks on men are perpetrated by men.  Less than 10% of the violent attacks on men are perpetrated by women.

I only agreed on some of the underlying extenuating circumstances around attacks.

Why you have this need to deny the facts is a bit difficult for me to understand.

Could it be you too want to use the victim card?  You can use it.  Go right ahead.

If you prefer to ignore the data; your problem not mine.  But it doesn't change the data.


hold up, I am just debating with you on  how relevant stats are, not  playing victim
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 11, 2007, 12:51 PM



you might not realize it, but by conceding certian points, you have validated my point that the stats  you  posted don't paint a completely accurate picture of domestic violence or violence in general;



No.  The stats are the stats.  Like I said early on they are not meant to be warm and fuzzy.  They are the hard numbers that are kept to track the frequency of certain events and just who it was that perpetrated the violence.

Conceding that domestic violence sometimes runs in families does not change the numbers.

It is still a fact that more than 60% of the attacks on men are perpetrated by men.  Less than 10% of the violent attacks on men are perpetrated by women.

I only agreed on some of the underlying extenuating circumstances around attacks.

Why you have this need to deny the facts is a bit difficult for me to understand.

Could it be you too want to use the victim card?  You can use it.  Go right ahead.

If you prefer to ignore the data; your problem not mine.  But it doesn't change the data.


hold up, I am just debating with you on  how relevant stats are, not  playing victim


Good because I would be horribly disappointed in such a ploy.

The data is not counting individuals as in people but individual events perpetrated by people.

There is a difference.

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 11, 2007, 12:53 PM
and I understand but  these statistics by themselves.........I dont believe they are all that relavent though
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 11, 2007, 12:55 PM
Quote
Oh so you are one of those posters that spew the verbal abuse and then tries to pretend you didn't do it?


No, that would clearly, overwhlemingly, be you,

Quote
Yeah, I've talked down to you a few times.  That I'll admit.


A few times?  That's been your whole pattern.

Quote
Considering the posts you try so hard to pass off as anything other than the insults they are........don't you even begin to understand you are only getting just what you are trying to dish out?


You feel the truth about domestic violence is insulting to you.  Clearly, it has been presented dispassionately, while you have been impertinent and patronizing again and again.  I called attention to your abusiveness long ago, and you just persisted.  Now you lie and lie some more.

Quote
Oh wait..........you are playing the victim card.


Men are indeed victims.  They are battered in domestic relationships, by police, by prosecutors, by judges, and by abusive people on blogs who refuse to recognize they are victims of domestic violence in the true numbers that exist.

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/Biz/ForBatteredMenTheirBatteringsNeverE.jpg)

http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2005/0223blumhorst.html
Quote
The struggle to bring attention to the plight of battered men, who are abused at the hands of violent females, is not a new topic. The topic as it concerned one man was well documented in a book called, The Inner World of Abraham Lincoln by Michael Burlingame. On p. 277 Burlingame gives a list of some of the violence Abe Lincoln incurred at the hands of Mrs. Lincoln, but there were numerous other pages, detailing the beatings Lincoln endured at the hands of his wife. Some feminists have pointed out that men are big and can defend themselves, but as Lincoln and many other men exemplify, "Gentlemen don't use their physical power against women."

For Lincoln the battering never ended in his lifetime. The domestic violence that Lincoln suffered like that of many men today is an issue that is not generally discussed. Domestic violence has become all the rage, no pun intended, on talk shows, in political circles, in social and church groups, and certainly in gender feminist circles as long as it does not cross the boundary of what's acceptable, and accept men as victims.




Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 11, 2007, 12:57 PM

Quote
Less than 10% of the violent (domestic violence) attacks on men are perpetrated by women.


http://www.truthaboutdeception.com/confront_a_liar/public/pathological-compulsive.html
Quote
A pathological liar is usually defined as someone wholies incessantly to get their way and does so with little concern for others. Pathological lying is often viewed as coping mechanism developed in early childhood and it is often associated with some other type of mental health disorder. A pathological liar is often goal-oriented (i.e., lying is focused - it is done to get one's way). Pathological liars have little regard or respect for the rights and feelings of others. A pathological liar often comes across as being manipulative, cunning and self-centered.


Compulsive Liar

A compulsive liar is defined as someone who lies out of habit. Lying is their normal and reflexive way of responding to questions. Compulsive liars bend the truth about everything, large and small. For a compulsive liar, telling the truth is very awkward and uncomfortable while lying feels right. Compulsive lying is usually thought to develop in early childhood, due to being placed in an environment where lying was necessary. For the most part, compulsive liars are not overly manipulative and cunning (see, Pathological Liar), rather they simply lie out of habit - an automatic response which is hard to break and one that takes its toll on a relationship (see, how to cope with a compulsive liar).

The terms Habitual Liar and Chronic Liar are often used to refer to a Compulsive Liar.




Are you calling me a liar because I'm using the stats provided by Dr. D early on in this thread?  That's interesting........

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/gender.htm

Quote
Most victims and perpetrators in homicides are male
   Male offender/Male victim 65.2%
 Male offender/Female victim 22.6%
 Female offender/Male victim 9.7%  
  Female offender/Female victim  2.4%

Both male and female offenders are more likely to target male victims than female victims.


So you feel the Bureau of Justice is part of the conspiracy?


Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 11, 2007, 12:58 PM
Quote
Is that the sound of MRA sheepishly whispering the word.....uncle?


No, not this lifetime.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 11, 2007, 12:59 PM
who me?, would you agree in general you can make stats say what you want them to, that  the very porcess using control groups, etc, is pretty easily manipulated, if only subtly
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 11, 2007, 01:01 PM

and I understand but  these statistics by themselves.........I dont believe they are all that relavent though



Maybe because they do not fall to your liking?

Documenting the frequency of attacks and who is doing the attacking is something you do not see as relavent?

Maybe we can try tea leaves?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 11, 2007, 01:03 PM

who me?, would you agree in general you can make stats say what you want them to, that  the very porcess using control groups, etc, is pretty easily manipulated, if only subtly


Not when documenting frequency of events and who is responsible for the events.

We are talking opinions here like a phone poll or something.  This is what is referred to as hard data.

It's a different animal.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 11, 2007, 01:03 PM
Quote
So you feel the Bureau of Justice is part of the conspiracy?


Absolutely, overwhelmingly, without a doubt, as influenced by these evil criminals in DOJ:
Office On Violence Against Women
http://www.usdoj.gov/ovw/

The last time there was a "hearing" to renew VAWA, the criminals in the DOJ running the hearing didn't even allow testimony from male victims of domestic violence.  The Office On Violence Against Women isn't unAmerican, it is the enemy of America.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 11, 2007, 01:06 PM
i prefer cannibis leaves to tea leaves  :laughing6:

I have already explained to you that  since  these  stats dont have a sperate category for  attacks perpetra ted by males with female involvement, they are irevelent
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 11, 2007, 01:08 PM
Quote
Are you calling me a liar because I'm using the stats provided by Dr. D early on in this thread?  That's interesting........


Please provide (show me) where Dr. E., not Dr. D., said "Less than 10% of the violent (domestic violence) attacks on men are perpetrated by women."  You appear to be all mixed up.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 11, 2007, 01:10 PM
Quote
Maybe because they [statistics] do not fall to your liking?

Documenting the frequency of attacks and who is doing the attacking is something you do not see as relavent?

Maybe we can try tea leaves?


I'm certain tea leaves would be infinitely more reliably than anything coming out of gender feminist advocacy research, or the gender feminist controlled DOJ, Office On Violence Against Women.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 11, 2007, 01:11 PM

Quote
So you feel the Bureau of Justice is part of the conspiracy?


Absolutely, overwhelmingly, without a doubt, as influenced by these evil criminals in DOJ:
Office On Violence Against Women
http://www.usdoj.gov/ovw/

The last time there was a "hearing" to renew VAWA, the criminals in the DOJ running the hearing didn't even allow testimony from male victims of domestic violence.  The Office On Violence Against Women isn't unAmerican, it is the enemy of America.


You do understand the term hard data huh?

Are you saying the DOJ changed the gender from female to male just to make you look bad?  Do you feel they misreported the arrest and conviction data?

Or  are you just willing to pretend they made it all up just so men would look bad?

You aren't making allot of sense here.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 11, 2007, 01:13 PM

Quote
Maybe because they [statistics] do not fall to your liking?

Documenting the frequency of attacks and who is doing the attacking is something you do not see as relavent?

Maybe we can try tea leaves?


I'm certain tea leaves would be infinitely more reliably than anything coming out of gender feminist advocacy research, or the gender feminist controlled DOJ, Office On Violence Against Women.



You are right.  The Department of Justice, FBI, heck probably the CIA are all out to get you.

They live to make men look bad using stats.

How silly is that anyway?

Maybe the tinfoil is slipping this afternoon. :dontknow:
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 11, 2007, 01:15 PM

Gonz,

Would you mind if I used your post about typical feminist responses?....I promise I will give you credit =)


Credit MGTOW - not mine - I just connected the dots.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 11, 2007, 01:31 PM
Quote
To be very honest you may need more than 800 participants to get an accurate read on anything.


Wrong again.  That number, 800, is not too small a number for University research on the population of Washington State, considering one of the biggest studies ever conducted in America by the federal gov't on domestic violence included just 16, 000 people.   The responses of those 16, 000 were then used to infer what was going on in the entire population of the U.S., regarding domestic violence.  That study found that over 34% of men were d.v. victims and the study was not based on corrupted crime stats controlled by corrupt gender feminists and their ilk.
http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/181867.pdf

Sadly, for years, people have not bothered to ferret out the truth about the lies being told by gender feminist scam queens, their ilk so lies have passed for truth, until now the vile gender feminists largely have control and manipulation of what comprises domestic violence, and largely have control and manipulation of all domestic violence stats.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 11, 2007, 01:33 PM
Quote
You are right.  The Department of Justice, FBI, heck probably the CIA are all out to get you.

They live to make men look bad using stats.

How silly is that anyway?

Maybe the tinfoil is slipping this afternoon.  :dontknow:


If you concerned about the tin foil hat slipping that you keep bringing up, then why don't you just look in a mirror to see if it's on straight? :laughing6:  :laughing6: :laughing6:
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 11, 2007, 01:35 PM

Quote
You are right.  The Department of Justice, FBI, heck probably the CIA are all out to get you.

They live to make men look bad using stats.

How silly is that anyway?

Maybe the tinfoil is slipping this afternoon.  :dontknow:


If you concerned about the tin foil hat slipping that you keep bringing up, then why don't you just look in a mirror to see if it's on straight? :laughing6:  :laughing6: :laughing6:


I'm not the one pushing the notion that the DOJ fakes stats to make men look bad.

That definitely fits in the tinfoil hat category.

Hey, that puts you in the company of Alex Jones and the Jonessetts.

Enjoy yourself. :laughing6:
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 11, 2007, 01:45 PM

Oh so you are one of those posters that spew the verbal abuse and then tries to pretend you didn't do it?  The cool thing about message boards is the fact that posts are there for anyone to read.


I'll bite here - In fact, I've been trying to figure ways to be more abusive to you without violating the Doc's TOS.

What of it?

Quote
You also seem to suffer from this delusion that anyone that challenges your thoughts automatically fits in a certain category....i.e......feminist.  That's really narrow in scope but if it makes you feel better....enjoy I guess.


When you spout feminist stats, feminist government worship, feminist woman-firsting - I'd call anyone who started in talking about the "Holy Catholic Church" and "His Holiness Benedict XVI" a Catholic, too.

If you're not one, you might want to look in on a NOW membership.

Quote
Yeah, I've talked down to you a few times.  That I'll admit.  Considering the posts you try so hard to pass off as anything other than the insults they are........don't you even begin to understand you are only getting just what you are trying to dish out?


Passive aggressive. Check.  Not a monumental revelation, but good to see you adsmit it.  It's the first of 12 steps.
Quote

Now if you feel I need to adhere to a different standard than the one you seem to hold so dear for yourself; please feel free to report me for this horrible abuse you feel you have been a victim to.

Oh wait..........you are playing the victim card.


Here's where you have pissed people off - and right now, nobody except for a few die hards is particularly interested in converting you.

As a class, few people here give a fuck about women.  Your claim to sympathy based on your plumbing has no receptive ear here.  If you are a decent person, you might earn that respect..

It's like "White History Month."  (Why don't we have a white history month?  Every month is white history month)  The whole national conversation is about women.  VAWA specifically and deliberately excluded men - that would be our government, the one you are so enamored of.

We've been told over and over again "Want help for men?  Start your own (Shelters, groups, etc.)"  Okay.  We are.  And it's about us.  Not you.

And now, typical, and true to tediously predictable form, here comes the feminazi with "What about women? Consider women! Women worse!  Take care of us first! Give us our half!"

Fuck that.

We've sat aside for years doing that.  We've gotten shuffled off to the side, backstabbed, lip service, lied to, and no more.  It is our turn, we're doing it for us, we've done it without you, we're gaining more and more traction every day.  It is working.  Your process is grinding slowly.  The only thing that could slow us down is to dilute our efforts by trying to do more than one thing - like "Women too!" and to dilute our message.

Now - enter "who me?" proposing we do exactly that.  Of course, in the name of "success."  Complete with the litany of shaming tactics and feminist talking points.

Hmm.  Go back to moderated talk and timid co-operation with a track record of no success, or stick with one having results.

Gee.  There's a hard decision.


Quote
Is that the sound of MRA sheepishly whispering the word.....uncle?

If you would chill out long enough to get to know new posters you maybe astounded at what you may learn.  But since you choose to label me to make you feel better.....you won't learn a thing.

What a shame to live in that one-dimensional universe you have chosen for yourself.



No, we've already learned all we need long ago about how effective it is to do "woman-firsting."

Woman second.  You have a plethora of women's groups and manginas who are eager to help you out and win their pat on the head.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 11, 2007, 01:54 PM
Quote
I'm not the one pushing the notion that the DOJ fakes stats to make men look bad.

That definitely fits in the tinfoil hat category.

Hey, that puts you in the company of Alex Jones and the Jonessetts.

Enjoy yourself.


There you go pathologically lying again.  That puts you in a category with gender feminists and the mainstream domestic violence industry.  That more than qualifies you for the "tin hat" insult you seem so impertinently and patronizingly to want to put on others.  I've always believed that the real batterers were the gender feminists and their ilk, running and supporting the mainstream domestic violence industry and you certainly add support to that contention.

No one today disputes that a plurality of the German populace were deceived into believing that Adolph Hitler was a valid part of the official institutions of German government and society, and like Hitler, America's evil, mainstream domestic violence industry has ensconced itself in all kinds of facades of respectability and officiousness.  Behind all the facades, lies the truth, that the vile, domestic violence industry is dishonest and rotten to the core - just like Hitler.  Apparently, in regards to America's evil, corrupt, domestic violence industry and VAWA, America has forgotten history.

BEWARE OF THAT, CLAIMING TO BE LEGITIMATE, THAT YOU LET IN THE FRONT DOORS OF YOUR GOVERNMENTAL AND SOCIETAL INSTITUTIONS.
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/d2820dd9.jpg)


Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 11, 2007, 03:08 PM
Declaration of Independence

Quote
,,,when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security:


# Violence Against Women Act
# Sexual Harassment Law
# taxpayer funded, male bashing, women's studies programs (over 750, but none for men)
# taxpayer funded, male demonizing, women's commissions (over 270 with only 1 for men)
# Title IX
# man-hating family law courts
# etc.
# etc.
# etc.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: TheManOnTheStreet on Jul 11, 2007, 03:24 PM
Man!  Smells like rotten fish in here!

TMOTS
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Mr. X on Jul 11, 2007, 03:33 PM
Just kill the thread guys. You're just giving who me attention.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 11, 2007, 09:45 PM
who me, please adress these  intangibles in the stats you mentioned

1. if it is a case where both parties are arrested and charged with a violent crime...does the incident get counted as male on female, female on male, or both????
2what kind of allownaces are made for unreported abuse(and I would venture to guess a guy would be less likely to report to the cops, I know i wouldnt)
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Chris Key on Jul 15, 2007, 10:40 PM


all BS to the side, most men on some level do feel like that because we are tired of always seeing femazle violence excused


I agree that it is ignored by the courts.  The only way to defeat that is to press the charges and shove to see they are considered on an equal footing by the court. 

Ignoring the obvious doesn't mean the you are making progress.  It just shows an ability to deny basic fact.

To excuse violence to anyone is really stupid. 

I read much more than I post here.  Something that I've noticed are the excuses...oh the bitch probably....fill in the blank...she was asking for it.

What does that acheive?  I'll tell what it acheives, it keeps your cause pushed to the back and ignored.

Equality is not acheived by stepping up on the body of another.  Equality is supposed to mean equal not superior or more important.

You shouldn't excuse violence against women any more than you tolerate women excusing violence against men.


Placing one group ahead of another is a form of bigotry.  By ignoring one group you're more or less rendering demoting them to a "second-class" status.  The discrimination leads to caos between the two demographics, as the discriminated group will end up fighting back against the people who treated them like second-class citizens.  You're seeing this in action on this board.

Men as a group have been treated as second-class citizens by the law for a long time.  The problem dates back to 19th Century English law.  Women received a large amount of criminal law impunity and civil law privilege over men under 19th Century English Law.  The problem was worsened during the 20th Century when the second-wave feminists came along and inspired the legislators into enforcing more anti-male legal practices.

The result is men are losing empathy and respect for women.  They're starting to hate women and see them as the 'enemy'.  There is some legitimacy behind the way men are acting, as they are subjugated by a force (a coalition between the Government and women) that is far stronger than them.

Blame should be placed on the shoulders of the chivalrous legislators and women who have exploited men.  They've created a 'battle of the sexes' that has led to normal men feeling that the only alternative is to doubt and hate anything that is female.

You'll find that men will oppose 'violence against women' when the law system and women oppose 'violence against men'.  The problem is the media, the Government and society in general treats violence against men as a joke.  You cannot expect men to care about violence agaisnt women when society portrays violence against men as 'okay'.  It is wrong for men to not care about violence against women, but you cannot blame men for thinking this way when they live in a society that treats violence against men as a joke.  It's a example of why the chivalrous men and feminists are an enemy of women, as they're more or less turning normal men against women.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Chris Key on Jul 15, 2007, 11:13 PM

Yeah and when that hoe talks back you can break her jaw too. yeah a slap definitly deserves a broken jaw. A kick deserves a severed arm. A bad word deserves a gouged out eye. Perhaps disobedience deserves broken teeth. Disagreeing deserves mental abuse.

Hey so when a 7 year old kicks you do you break their legs cause you have a massive size an weight advantage? I don't care what the sex of the other person is, proportionality always should apply. So next time a kid bumps into me in the grocery store I should pick up their tiny little 60lb body and shove it through the glass door cause I can. WEEE DOGGIEE ITS FAIR GAME TIME!

Hey Gonzo, remember your attitude when you're 75 in a nursing home and some nurse breaks your arm cause you swatted her hand. Remember the weak must always be kept in line by the bullies who have a distinct physical advantage... oops I mean the "strong". You will be weak someday Gonzo. When that day comes I hope a younger, stronger woman breaks your jaw.


You're argument follows the following format:

It's wrong for a man to hit a child since children are smaller than men.
Women are smaller than men.
Therefore, it's wrong for men to hit women.

The problem with that line of reasoning is it fails to take into account that status isn't the only difference between women and children.  There are a plethora of differences between women and children that lead to the latter being more vulnerable than the former.  Children and women are smaller than men, but that doesn't mean children and women are equal to one another in regards to their frailty. Women are far stronger than children.  It's possible for a woman to defend herself against a man, but difficult for a child to do the same.

The other thing that we need to take into consideration is that size isn't the only factor that determines a person's frailty.  Both men and women possess a number of extremely sensitive regions on their anatomies that are vulnerable to trauma.  For men it is their testes, eyes and visceral organs.  For women it's their vulva, eyes and visceral organs.  In some ways women have an advantage, as the most sensitive region of their anatomy (the vulva) is not as large as the most sensitive region of the male anatomy (the testes).  This gives women a bigger target to aim at, which means a greater likelihood of making contact and causing long-term damage.

In conclusion, a woman can severely hurt a man if she knows where to attack.  Therefore, women shouldn't be allowed to attack men with impunity, because if they are given this 'privilege', then that would give them licence to severely injure men and disallow men from being able to defend themselves.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 16, 2007, 03:44 AM



all BS to the side, most men on some level do feel like that because we are tired of always seeing femazle violence excused


I agree that it is ignored by the courts.  The only way to defeat that is to press the charges and shove to see they are considered on an equal footing by the court. 

Ignoring the obvious doesn't mean the you are making progress.  It just shows an ability to deny basic fact.

To excuse violence to anyone is really stupid. 

I read much more than I post here.  Something that I've noticed are the excuses...oh the bitch probably....fill in the blank...she was asking for it.

What does that acheive?  I'll tell what it acheives, it keeps your cause pushed to the back and ignored.

Equality is not acheived by stepping up on the body of another.  Equality is supposed to mean equal not superior or more important.

You shouldn't excuse violence against women any more than you tolerate women excusing violence against men.


Placing one group ahead of another is a form of bigotry.  By ignoring one group you're more or less rendering demoting them to a "second-class" status.  The discrimination leads to caos between the two demographics, as the discriminated group will end up fighting back against the people who treated them like second-class citizens.  You're seeing this in action on this board.

Men as a group have been treated as second-class citizens by the law for a long time.  The problem dates back to 19th Century English law.  Women received a large amount of criminal law impunity and civil law privilege over men under 19th Century English Law.  The problem was worsened during the 20th Century when the second-wave feminists came along and inspired the legislators into enforcing more anti-male legal practices.

The result is men are losing empathy and respect for women.  They're starting to hate women and see them as the 'enemy'.  There is some legitimacy behind the way men are acting, as they are subjugated by a force (a coalition between the Government and women) that is far stronger than them.

Blame should be placed on the shoulders of the chivalrous legislators and women who have exploited men.  They've created a 'battle of the sexes' that has led to normal men feeling that the only alternative is to doubt and hate anything that is female.

You'll find that men will oppose 'violence against women' when the law system and women oppose 'violence against men'.  The problem is the media, the Government and society in general treats violence against men as a joke.  You cannot expect men to care about violence agaisnt women when society portrays violence against men as 'okay'.  It is wrong for men to not care about violence against women, but you cannot blame men for thinking this way when they live in a society that treats violence against men as a joke.  It's a example of why the chivalrous men and feminists are an enemy of women, as they're more or less turning normal men against women.


The domestic violence laws in the majority of states are gender nuetral as they should be.  The enforcement is where the problem exist in those states.

That has to be changed by getting the word.  You are not going to find many women that believe other women have the right to abuse their spouse or b/f just as the majority of men do not feel a man has the right to abuse his soupse or g/f. 

That is the stiuation that should be addressed...the enforcement of those laws that are on the book in the states who's laws are gender nuetral.

There also needs to be a concerted effort to see that the laws are gender nuetral in all states.

That will not be achieved by ignoring the problems that exist in regard to domestic violence.  It will not be achieved by ignoring the problems we have in our society in regard to violent attacks in general.

Meanwhile, back at the farm 2 more pregnant women have come up missing just this past week.  They are most likely dead. 

How many husbands of pregnant women have come up missing this week and are most likely dead on the other hand?

You can't cheer one and morn the other and expect anyone that can think and reason to back you on the deal.

If it's equality you want; go for it.  You will find much support.  But if you are looking to turn the clock back you will get absolutely nowhere.

Also I think you missed something in my posts.  I was comparing the figures between death caused by male on male attacks compared to death caused by female on male attacks.  There is a huge cavern between those numbers.  For the sake of reason and honesty they should not be ignored.

Houston we have problems here.  The problem is violence.  It should not be tolerated, ignored, or cheered.  But it looks like some just can't help themselves.......and then they wonder why things are the way they are?  Those people are part of the problem.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 16, 2007, 04:19 AM

Also I think you missed something in my posts.  I was comparing the figures between death caused by male on male attacks compared to death caused by female on male attacks.  There is a huge cavern between those numbers.  For the sake of reason and honesty they should not be ignored.


You missed it.  Women have many places where the discourse is about them.  They have agencies, commissions, advocates, organizations, and such by the score.  There are so many for women that many collapse or get assimilated by their competition.  Plenty of people arte talking and doing about women.

Few are talking or doing anything for men.  We have been told "Do for yourself."

So, we are.  And this is about US. 

Your tactic is a blatant - and tired - attempt to dilute our efforts.  "We're going to make women's organizations, and exclude men - BUT - men's organizations have to include women!"  Fuck. That.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: dr e on Jul 16, 2007, 04:30 AM
Yes, we do have a problem with violence.  You mention 2 women who are missing this week and that is a valid concern.  However it is absolutely dwarfed by the problem of violence against men.  I would estimate that over 300 men have been murdered in the last week in the United States of America.  That's 150 x's your figure.  This is a huge problem and one that is getting a tiny fraction of the attention women who are victims of DV are getting.  This shows your sexism and favoritism/female firstism.

The laws are equal in the majority of states on DV?  That's a ridiculous claim.  How can that be when the legislation that funds all of the states is so blatantly sexist.  The VAWA continues to overtly ignore the pain of men and chivalrously run to the aid of women in need.  I was involved in the last re-auhtorization of the VAWA on the hill and saw first hand how we were ignored completely and our speakers which we submitted to speak at the hearings were ignored and passed over.  Who was allowed to speak?  All of those from the present system that gave the same "dog and pony show" that has gone on for the last 10 years.  Not one voice that was offering to speak about men who were victims of domestic violence was allowed to speak.  I truly thought I had been transported to North Korea.  There is no fairness here, only sexism.  To me, seeing what you write is truly comical.  You don't have a clue of what is really going on.  The radical idealogues have command of this legislation and won't let any other victims near it.  This isn't compassion for those in need, this is selfishness fueled by hatred.

Sexism rules the hill.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 16, 2007, 05:18 AM

Yes, we do have a problem with violence.  You mention 2 women who are missing this week and that is a valid concern.  However it is absolutely dwarfed by the problem of violence against men.  I would estimate that over 300 men have been murdered in the last week in the United States of America.  That's 150 x's your figure.  This is a huge problem and one that is getting a tiny fraction of the attention women who are victims of DV are getting.  This shows your sexism and favoritism/female firstism.

The laws are equal in the majority of states on DV?  That's a ridiculous claim.  How can that be when the legislation that funds all of the states is so blatantly sexist.  The VAWA continues to overtly ignore the pain of men and chivalrously run to the aid of women in need.  I was involved in the last re-auhtorization of the VAWA on the hill and saw first hand how we were ignored completely and our speakers which we submitted to speak at the hearings were ignored and passed over.  Who was allowed to speak?  All of those from the present system that gave the same "dog and pony show" that has gone on for the last 10 years.  Not one voice that was offering to speak about men who were victims of domestic violence was allowed to speak.  I truly thought I had been transported to North Korea.  There is no fairness here, only sexism.  To me, seeing what you write is truly comical.  You don't have a clue of what is really going on.  The radical idealogues have command of this legislation and won't let any other victims near it.  This isn't compassion for those in need, this is selfishness fueled by hatred.

Sexism rules the hill.


Yes we do have a big problem with violence in this country.  Of the hundreds of men that were murdered last week.......at whose hand?  Were the majority of those deaths at the hands of other men or women?  It appears there is a need to ignore the violence against men perpetrated by men and act as if as many men are murdered by women each week.

The statistics do not prove that.  In fact just the opposite point is driven home.

As far as the domestic violence laws; yes I do understand that in some states they are lopsided to say the least.  That needs to be addressed loud and clear.  But it has to be accomplished on the state level.  The worst offenders in that area should be held up to public scrutiny

In the majority of the states it isn't the law but the enforcement of the law that needs to be addressed.  It isn't a one size fits all situation and should not be treated as such.

As far as the men not being allowed to speak at the VAWA conference.......that's wrong.  For one thing it shouldn't be exclusive to violence against women.  The name in and of itself is ignoring 1/2 of the problem.

Maybe it needs to be approached as no excuse for domestic violence in general. 

It is a problem from both sides.  One should not be excluded, ignored, or justified.  That is my point.

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 16, 2007, 05:20 AM
Just so none of you get the impression that I'm backing out of the debate.

I'll be out of pocket for the next 24 hours or so.  My husband is having shoulder surgery today and he is my first concern.

I'll be back after he is released from the hospital.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: dr e on Jul 16, 2007, 05:27 AM
Quote
Yes we do have a big problem with violence in this country.  Of the hundreds of men that were murdered last week.......at whose hand?  Were the majority of those deaths at the hands of other men or women?  It appears there is a need to ignore the violence against men perpetrated by men and act as if as many men are murdered by women each week.


What difference does it make who the perpetrator might be?  Do you care about all victims or just those who are female victims of men?  I mean really, what difference does it make who perpetrated the crime.  The end result to the victim is exactly the same no matter who the perpetrator might have been:  They are DEAD.  Your trying to split off worthy victims versus unworthy victims shows your bigotry and sexism.  Victims are victims.  It is laughable how you blame and devalue male victims due to the sex of their perpetrators. 

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: poiuyt on Jul 16, 2007, 05:46 AM
Quote
What difference does it make who the perpetrator might be?  Do you care about all victims or just those who are female victims of men?  I mean really, what difference does it make who perpetrated the crime.  The end result to the victim is exactly the same no matter who the perpetrator might have been:  They are DEAD.  Your trying to split off worthy victims versus unworthy victims shows your bigotry and sexism.  Victims are victims.  It is laughable how you blame and devalue male victims due to the sex of their perpetrators.


This nailed it.

Bravo ...

Feminism is indeed chauvenism.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: devia on Jul 16, 2007, 06:18 AM
Unless you can call gangs and other criminal freinds family then those deaths are not DV related. In a discussion about DV it's apples and oranges.

How many of those deaths were suburban white men?

On topic what is the base line for abuse, what is considered abuse in this study? It sounds like a 1 in 6 stat to me. Holding up stats as proof when they fit your agenda and disbelieving them when they don't is something you accuse feminists of.

Do you belive that 30% of women are abused when they are pregnant?








Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 16, 2007, 07:16 AM

Quote
Yes we do have a big problem with violence in this country.  Of the hundreds of men that were murdered last week.......at whose hand?  Were the majority of those deaths at the hands of other men or women?  It appears there is a need to ignore the violence against men perpetrated by men and act as if as many men are murdered by women each week.


What difference does it make who the perpetrator might be?  Do you care about all victims or just those who are female victims of men?  I mean really, what difference does it make who perpetrated the crime.  The end result to the victim is exactly the same no matter who the perpetrator might have been:  They are DEAD.  Your trying to split off worthy victims versus unworthy victims shows your bigotry and sexism.  Victims are victims.  It is laughable how you blame and devalue male victims due to the sex of their perpetrators. 


Doesn't even matter that.  Any woman who is a victim - hell, even if she is a victim of her own stupidity - can open any phone book and have her choice of agencies, charities, or what-have-you, willing to bend over backwards to solve her problem, and as likely as not on the taxpayer dime, and for free.

But you'll search long and hard for a blessed one of them that will provide a referral for men to an agency where they have to pay, let alone provide even a paid service for men.

And now - ONCE AGAIN - after decades of "Start your own _________" we have some woman-firsting feminag coming in here telling us we're sonsofbitches if we do start our own, and don't give women first billing and first attention, and dilute our efforts.

Again - FUCK that.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 17, 2007, 09:05 AM

Quote
Yes we do have a big problem with violence in this country.  Of the hundreds of men that were murdered last week.......at whose hand?  Were the majority of those deaths at the hands of other men or women?  It appears there is a need to ignore the violence against men perpetrated by men and act as if as many men are murdered by women each week.


What difference does it make who the perpetrator might be?  Do you care about all victims or just those who are female victims of men?  I mean really, what difference does it make who perpetrated the crime.  The end result to the victim is exactly the same no matter who the perpetrator might have been:  They are DEAD.  Your trying to split off worthy victims versus unworthy victims shows your bigotry and sexism.  Victims are victims.  It is laughable how you blame and devalue male victims due to the sex of their perpetrators. 




Strange, I thought the topic was domestic violence.  Are you saying all of the men you spoke of were murdered by domestic partners or are you attempting to change the subject?

I'm not devaluing the life of any man but I guess while you are jumping to conclusions that one will work for you as well as any other.

So now we are back to some of the first points I made in this thread.  Until the men's groups try to speak honestly about the subject of domestic violence instead of trying to ignore the numbers and take the issue seriously despite the gender of the victim or the gender of the perpetrator they can not be expect to be taken seriously.

Yeah, you nailed it alright.  You drifted back to my original point in an attempt to shift the subject.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 17, 2007, 09:15 AM
who me?
hope the husbands surgery went ok

seriously,  "the numbers" , what do they tell; hell,  the way the cops operate, a woman could beat the hell out of a man and then have him arrested for domestic abuse for hurting her hand
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: dr e on Jul 17, 2007, 10:39 AM

Last time I checked murders related to domestic violence are included in the general category of murder.  The sad fact is that men are the overwhelming majority of those murder victims.  I was pointing out that you are focusing on a tiny fraction of the violence in the US and by doing so are missing the larger and more important picture.  You remind me of someone in the ER jumping up and down and demanding that the patient's sprained wrist get immediate attention...but ignoring that the major problem is that the patient had both legs severed by a train. 

I see many men who are concerned about violence against women.  I see our government concerned about this and pouring tons of money to try and make a difference.  What I don't see is those same people and our government showing anywhere near the same concern for men.  The men here see the same thing and rightly focus on those who are ignored and in need.  You come in and complain that by focusing on the men in need they are HURTING WOMEN!  Oh please, take that old world shaming crap someplace else.  This is a board that focuses on men and how they are in need and ignored in situation after situation.  Don't like it?  Find a different place to post.   We really don't need people trying to tell us how bad we are for not pushing their pet agenda. 





Quote
Yes we do have a big problem with violence in this country.  Of the hundreds of men that were murdered last week.......at whose hand?  Were the majority of those deaths at the hands of other men or women?  It appears there is a need to ignore the violence against men perpetrated by men and act as if as many men are murdered by women each week.


What difference does it make who the perpetrator might be?  Do you care about all victims or just those who are female victims of men?  I mean really, what difference does it make who perpetrated the crime.  The end result to the victim is exactly the same no matter who the perpetrator might have been:  They are DEAD.  Your trying to split off worthy victims versus unworthy victims shows your bigotry and sexism.  Victims are victims.  It is laughable how you blame and devalue male victims due to the sex of their perpetrators. 




Strange, I thought the topic was domestic violence.  Are you saying all of the men you spoke of were murdered by domestic partners or are you attempting to change the subject?

I'm not devaluing the life of any man but I guess while you are jumping to conclusions that one will work for you as well as any other.

So now we are back to some of the first points I made in this thread.  Until the men's groups try to speak honestly about the subject of domestic violence instead of trying to ignore the numbers and take the issue seriously despite the gender of the victim or the gender of the perpetrator they can not be expect to be taken seriously.

Yeah, you nailed it alright.  You drifted back to my original point in an attempt to shift the subject.

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: poiuyt on Jul 17, 2007, 10:41 AM
Quote
Re: Study:  30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy


Quote
How about the difference in the result of the abuse?

Are men more likely to die than women?

Or do you guys prefer to overlook the leading cause of death in pregnant women?


But YOU shifted the articles goalposts in trying to introduce the "difference in result [by sex]of the abuse" during pregnancy, hence the logical extension to "differences in results [by sex] of violent abuses" overall.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Mr. X on Jul 17, 2007, 10:43 AM
Quote from: who me?
Yes we do have a big problem with violence in this country.  Of the hundreds of men that were murdered last week.......at whose hand?  Were the majority of those deaths at the hands of other men or women?  It appears there is a need to ignore the violence against men perpetrated by men and act as if as many men are murdered by women each week.


And thousands of kids are abused every week... at who's hands? Women. Women commit the majority of child abuse. Do you dismiss when girls are hurt by mothers?

Again why do you base your arguement on WHO perpetuates crime and then use that as an excuse to ignore the crime committed against men? Should we ignore the girls abused by their mothers cause that's a crime of woman on woman?

Hey why not break it down by race as well. If more blacks are killed by blacks should white people ignore it?

You mean to tell me if women were the majority of people killed in this country AND the persp were women I can ignore what happens to women cause that would be a crime of woman on woman?

It seems the goal for women then is if they are at least .00000001% better than men then ALL MEN can be ignored and ONLY WOMEN can be helped.

Way more men get murdered in this country and your attitude is "well it ain't my concern"? And then you argue we men should help women? Wow, that's amazing. I'm surprised more men haven't just up and flipped you women off and told you to fend for yourselves.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: devia on Jul 17, 2007, 10:58 AM
<<<Women commit the majority of child abuse.>>>

That's a 'DUH'.

Women commit the majority of child rearing, hence they will commit the majority of abuse.

What sucks about the above arguement (women commit the majority of child abuse) is it fails to take stats on a level playing field.

The majority of children spend the majority of time around their mothers.

Yes or no? Who the heck cares?

But this is a derailing of the thread.  DO you beleive that 30% of women are abused during pregnacy?

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: CaptDMO on Jul 17, 2007, 11:00 AM
:popcorn:
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: typhonblue on Jul 17, 2007, 11:02 AM

<<<Women commit the majority of child abuse.>>>

That's a 'DUH'.

Women commit the majority of child rearing, hence they will commit the majority of abuse.

What sucks about the above arguement (women commit the majority of child abuse) is it fails to take stats on a level playing field.

The majority of children spend the majority of time around their mothers.

Yes or no? Who the heck cares?

But this is a derailing of the thread.  DO you beleive that 30% of women are abused during pregnacy?




Wait a second!

But what about single mother vs single father households?

_Precentage-wise_ children are less likely to be abused in single-father households then in single-mother households.

As for that 30% of woman being abused during pregnancy? Sure. If we also accept that 40% of men are abused during pregnancy.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: devia on Jul 17, 2007, 11:09 AM
<<<Precentage-wise_ children are less likely to be abused in single-father households then in single-mother households. >>>

Are they are more likely to be wanted children in a single-father household.
Yes or no?

How many ghetto poverty type babies (a hightened risk group) are raised in single father homes compared to single mothers?





Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Mr. X on Jul 17, 2007, 11:15 AM

<<<Women commit the majority of child abuse.>>>

That's a 'DUH'.

Women commit the majority of child rearing, hence they will commit the majority of abuse.

What sucks about the above arguement (women commit the majority of child abuse) is it fails to take stats on a level playing field.

The majority of children spend the majority of time around their mothers.

Yes or no? Who the heck cares?

But this is a derailing of the thread.  DO you beleive that 30% of women are abused during pregnacy?




AND SO WHAT! Women ignore ANY extenuating facts when it comes to men so according to the same set of rules we men should mindlessly ignore any extenuating set of facts when it comes to women.

YOU KILL CHILDREN MORE THAN MEN DO PERIOD END OF STORY! I am using EXACTLY the same mentality on you that you use on me. Now I will take this and grind you into the dirt with it as you do with me. You kill children. We should ignore the minor amount of men who kill children. We should ignore when little girls are killed by women since that's a crime of women on women.

Where the HELL do you women get off holding ME responsible for the actions of another man simply cause I have the same equipment YET when its done to you we mena re SUPPOSED to look at the circumstance.

I AM USING YOUR RULES! I have NOT altered them in any way. I have simply reapplied them back onto you BABY KILLER. This is the way YOU WOMEN treat us men then you got the GAUL to demand we help you by claiming ALL violence is MY FAULT cause the majority of perps are men.

But of course you then convienently weasel out of the areas that women do the worse in. And why don't you blame blacks? Why don't you dived on racial boundaries?

Sorry, suck it up baby killer. You kill children. Devia is a baby killer and child abuser cause MORE WOMEN ABUSE CHILDREN THAN MEN. This is a WOMAN'S PROBLEM and we should ignore all male perps in this circumstance ACCORDING to female mentality.

How do you like it?

As for the 30% pregnancy abuse. 1 Do you believe 40% of men are abused during pregnancy? 2. Is abused defined objectivily? The ORIGINAL complaint about the article was that it CLEARLY stated MORE MEN were abused than WOMEN yet it went on to ONLY talk about the women. THAT was the original complaint.

IN FACT its exactle the complaint WHO ME? apparently has that MORE of a group is abused than another yet the SMALLER group gets the focus of attention.

IF the study is correct then it CLEARLY states more men are abused. So then why does the article then ONLY focus on the women abused in pregnancy? Shouldn't the stat really be "40% of people involved in a pregnancy are abused in some way"?


Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: devia on Jul 17, 2007, 11:20 AM
<<<YOU KILL CHILDREN MORE THAN MEN DO PERIOD END OF STORY>>>


Women are around children more then men...hence end of story.

I myself have never killed a child, hence I cannot think of myself as the "you" group.

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: dr e on Jul 17, 2007, 11:31 AM

I agree with Mr X on this one.  The violence done by men is generalized to conclude the guilt of masculinity while the violence done by women is given a pussy pass.  Screw that.  Enough excuses.  Give them the same number of excuses we give the men.  ZERO.

Devia applies for the pussy pass with no shame whatsoever.  lol


<<<YOU KILL CHILDREN MORE THAN MEN DO PERIOD END OF STORY>>>


Women are around children more then men...hence end of story.

I myself have never killed a child, hence I cannot think of myself as the "you" group.


Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Mr. X on Jul 17, 2007, 11:32 AM

<<<YOU KILL CHILDREN MORE THAN MEN DO PERIOD END OF STORY>>>


Women are around children more then men...hence end of story.

I myself have never killed a child, hence I cannot think of myself as the "you" group.




Sorry, extenuating circumstances are not considered with men so they are not considered with women. These are the feminist rules. I have not altered them. Why should I care about the reasons BEHIND any of this when the reasons BEHIND why men commit crime are not considered.

I have not assaulted someone so I cannot be held accountable for male violence yet I am held accountable simply cause I have the equipment.

Women's rules. I have not altered them, simply reapplied them. This is the flaw with collectivist thinking.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: devia on Jul 17, 2007, 11:34 AM
I don't really understand what your point was dr e?

Are women not more likely to be taking care of children then men?


btw...

That you placed a poll the way you did, you now look like an offshot of the "niceguys" site.

Try dealing in facts instead of slander and gossip.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: CaptDMO on Jul 17, 2007, 11:43 AM

<<<Women commit the majority of child abuse.>>>
DO you beleive that 30% of women are abused during pregnacy?

With all of the couples I've known the mother was alllowed "special dispensation" for
errant behavior, and the father was ALWAYS extra mindful of his behavior, until about a year after the birth.
Two exceptions were with miscarriages. BOTH spouses got ugly for about 4 months.

I do not believe a study that pronounces such data as cited. I call bullshit.
I question the motives and impartiality of the "operators".

I know of feminist women that will outright lie in a public forum, not only to further "special protections" and "special exceptions" for other women that might agree with them, but also to excuse their rageing behavior, and support their own delusions of higher rationality and/or authoritative perception.

I'll laugh along with the Nancy Grace show to ensure my IQ hasen't dropped below 100 (or for background noise), when the Hannity/Colms cartoon  or O'Reily is in repeat mode. The high pitched cacophony helps to alleviate my tinnitus.

Edit to close quote.
WOW! A lot of shit can happen while one types!   
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Virtue on Jul 17, 2007, 11:44 AM
Quote
I don't really understand what your point was dr e?

Are women not more likely to be taking care of children then men?



Irrelevant Devia because the statistics that Dr E and Mr X are talking about are Per Capita RATES.

Try for your pussy pass under another section please
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 17, 2007, 11:45 AM
You know its odd, I used a similar argument with a feminist about violence against women......she said men are more violent towards women nowdays because  "empoweredwomen threaten men"; and I told her that was a crock of shit, I told her since more women are going places and doingb things men are, they are  getting put into  a position to be part of a victim group they used to be safer from.
I think Devia might have a point on the ratio of time kids spending with women might make women more likely to be the perp in that situation. However from personal observations mom always gets mad quicker and is usually meaner than dad, and this reaches across class and race
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: CaptDMO on Jul 17, 2007, 11:58 AM

<<<Precentage-wise_ children are less likely to be abused in single-father households then in single-mother households. >>>

Are they are more likely to be wanted children in a single-father household.
Yes or no?

How many ghetto poverty type babies (a hightened risk group) are raised in single father homes compared to single mothers?

Umm.....Kinda' stretching the demographic pretty thin there.
Back on track or I "beg the question" (Robert's Rules of Parliamentary Procedure) as non-sequtur
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: . on Jul 17, 2007, 12:03 PM
Dr. E, please lock this damn thread (that I started)!

That being said, I might ask all the armchair latent feminists reading this thread to think of the study's findings.  Abuse is defined broadly, to include emotional abuse, verbal threats and tirades...  Ever know a husband who had to put up with a pregnant wife on a raging, emotional, hormone-induced roller coaster?  And to the men...  have you ever been that husband?

It's not funny, it's not quaint, it's not excusable.  It's abuse.  And husbands bear the brunt of it during a pregnancy.  All you mothers who have any memory of your pregnancy will probably have to admit to yourselves -- in your most honest, private, solitary moments -- that despite the hormones and physical changes you endured, you still had your free will and your ability to make moral choices. 

Which is why the mother's tirades/demands/insults are not so quaint ("you did this to me, asshole!"), even when we think of the stress a pregnant woman endures.  She could have toned it down, but chose not to.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: devia on Jul 17, 2007, 12:15 PM
<<<<,Dr. E, please lock this damn thread (that I started)!

That being said, I might ask all the armchair latent feminists reading this thread to think of the study's findings.  Abuse is defined broadly, to include emotional abuse, verbal threats and tirades...  Ever been a husband who had to put up with a pregnant wife on a raging emotional hormone-induced roller coaster?

It's not funny, it's not quaint, it's not excusable.  It's abuse.  And husbands bear the brunt of it during a pregnancy.  All you mothers who have any memory of your pregnancy will probably have to admit to yourselves -- in your most honest, private, solitary moments -- that despite the hormones and physical changes brought on by pregnancy, you still had your free will and your ability to make moral choices.  Which is why it's not so quaint when we think of the stress a pregnant woman endures and the names and insults she hurls at her partner; she could have toned it down, but chose not to.

>>>>>>>>


Ok


So in the studies findings the majority of woman were not basket cases during pregnacy.. but some were .. and some guys were.... and the study had the trash people so it could make a mark.

What the heck are you trying to prove here? Lock it because it didn't have its intended mark?

So abuse is defined broadly. Hence both demanding ice cream, and calling the woman a sow are both abuse?

Neither do I see as abuse. Perhaps we're supposed to sit back and imagine?

Stats are only good when they support your cause right? bad stats.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 17, 2007, 12:24 PM
mark twain said there are three kinds of lies "lies damn lies and statistics"; no so much in the sense that the stats are false; but every statsitical study has to be looked at taking into account  other factors and possible intangibles and margins of errors and the methods of gathering info;  a business teacher of mine said "data is not always facts"
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: . on Jul 17, 2007, 12:26 PM
"Stats are only bad when they don't support your cause"?  The study measures a phenomenon.  It can be critiqued of its reliability (measuring what it purports to measure), and its validity (making valid conclusions based on the data collected).  It is also going into this journal for the purpose of undergoing peer review.  So it is not a "stat."  It is a study.  What made it relevant to post is the facially valid finding that fathers are abused a little more than mothers throughout a pregnancy.

Secondly, I asked for this thread to be shut down because the conversation has gone too long.  If you read the first post, there is no "intended mark."

Thirdly, Devia, I'm a father and I know what it's like.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 17, 2007, 01:18 PM

<<<Women commit the majority of child abuse.>>>

That's a 'DUH'.

Women commit the majority of child rearing, hence they will commit the majority of abuse.

What sucks about the above arguement (women commit the majority of child abuse) is it fails to take stats on a level playing field.

The majority of children spend the majority of time around their mothers.


And here comes the predictable excuse when it goes against the female - of course, when men do it, there is "No Excuse For Abuse."

Quote
Yes or no? Who the heck cares?


No, because your argument also doesn't account that a lot of kids are jointly raised, and men's contributions to child rearing are seen as invisible, or discounted.

Quote
But this is a derailing of the thread.  DO you beleive that 30% of women are abused during pregnacy?


Absolutely not.  It's another "{Super Bowl/ 1 in 4/Rule of thumb" myth.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 17, 2007, 01:23 PM
Im not familiar with the "super bowl" myth????
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: dr e on Jul 17, 2007, 01:24 PM
Devia - The point was that people automatically seek excuses for women (they are the ones around children = pussy pass)  while men are held to the fire no matter what the circumstance.

You are incorrect if you think I started the poll.  I didn't.  False accusation anyone?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: dr e on Jul 17, 2007, 01:25 PM
John - I am unlikely to lock a thread where people are discussing issues.   If there are personal attacks then that is a different situation.   
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 17, 2007, 01:32 PM

I don't really understand what your point was dr e?

Are women not more likely to be taking care of children then men?


No.

It is *perceived* that way, but it is far from the truth that the divide is that great.

There is a WHOLE lot of the phenomena of "You didn't do it RIGHT my way, so your efforts don't count" that goes on.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 17, 2007, 01:34 PM

Im not familiar with the "super bowl" myth????


A few years ago, the femherroids put out a bullshit release claiming that Domestic Abuse spiked during super Bowl Weekend.

It was proven to be a lie.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Mr. X on Jul 17, 2007, 01:42 PM

But this is a derailing of the thread.  DO you beleive that 30% of women are abused during pregnacy?


So if the vast majority of this 30% of pregnant women are abused by other women, should we men then ignore this situation because the perpetrators and victims are of the same sex?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: devia on Jul 17, 2007, 01:44 PM
So you're saying that women do not spend more time taking care of children then men do?

I'm losing this thread.




Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: dr e on Jul 17, 2007, 02:17 PM

So you're saying that women do not spend more time taking care of children then men do?

I'm losing this thread.







The idea of women being around children may or may not be true or false.  That is not the issue.  The issue is that you automatically reach for an excuse for women who have committed terrible crimes but would be much less likely to do so for men. 
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Mr. X on Jul 17, 2007, 02:27 PM

So you're saying that women do not spend more time taking care of children then men do?

I'm losing this thread.







You're playing dissimilation. You know perfectly well what's being discussed here. You're intentionally playing naive to avoid the issues.

Apparently since you don't CARE what circumstances revolve around men being the majority of perpetrators in violent crime, no one should care what the frequency of women around children are and we should just mindlessly hold women acoountable for child abuse since they are the majority of the perpetrators.

Also, care to answer my previous question which IS on topic? If the majority of perpetrators against that 30% of abused pregnant women were other women, should we men not care what happens to that 30% of abused pregnant women since its a crime of woman on woman?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: typhonblue on Jul 17, 2007, 04:04 PM
The point is:

Women and men are equally violent.

But only violent men are said to be representative of their gender.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Mr. X on Jul 17, 2007, 04:38 PM

The point is:

Women and men are equally violent.

But only violent men are said to be representative of their gender.


And only when it comes to violence. If violence is the fault of the group that commits the most violence then advancement, wealthy and prosperity are the fault of the group that makes these things... men. Yet no feminist will say "Men build the vast majority of buildings, houses, technology, advancements and wealth therefore all these things are the fault of men and women have no say in them".

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 18, 2007, 04:16 AM
Quote
The point is:

Women and men are equally violent.

But only violent men are said to be representative of their gender.


And do we have the news media to thank for this, or does the domestic violence industry have a news service (at taxpayer expense) that does news releases to media outlets, hyping and sensationalizing only female victims of domestic violence - alleged to have been committed by males?  I say "yes," to all.    Having watched Fox News (cable), I've come to refer to it as the "missing and murdered, white woman's network," yet males are 76% of homicides.  From what I watch of the other networks they operate the same way.  You know the news media is vastly biased in their reporting of the facts about who are victims of violence.  Where is the news coverage, sympathy and services for male victims of violence.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 18, 2007, 05:59 AM

You know its odd, I used a similar argument with a feminist about violence against women......she said men are more violent towards women nowdays because  "empoweredwomen threaten men"; and I told her that was a crock of shit, I told her since more women are going places and doingb things men are, they are  getting put into  a position to be part of a victim group they used to be safer from.
I think Devia might have a point on the ratio of time kids spending with women might make women more likely to be the perp in that situation. However from personal observations mom always gets mad quicker and is usually meaner than dad, and this reaches across class and race



Our society is becoming more violent over a period of time.  In my opinion one of the reasons for that is the excuse making that goes on.  You know the........oh that happened because she is home with the kids more than he is or he was upset over child support..........etc...etc...etc.

There should be zero excuses available and even less tolerance for violent acts no matter which gender falls victim to the violent act.

This thread was started based on an abstract theory for a study.  It looks like some people are having a problem understanding those words.  It means that the study has not been completed therefore there is no hard data with which to back the abstract theory.

Yet it is being argued as if it is a completed study.  That is a bogus notion.

I've been reading through the thread this morning and have noted a couple of post claiming that women have an equal tendency of violence as do  men.  I wish someone would post the hard data to prove the claim.  It's easy to make a statement.....a bit tougher to back the statement.

Let's see the numbers.

And in response to yet another post..........nope the stats speak for themselves.  They do not get ignored just because they do not back a certain idea being pushed.  But here again that poster is arguing about an abstract theory as opposed to hard data.

If there is any hard data to prove the men and women are equally violent please post it.  I'd be interested in reading the study that backs the data.

Otherwise it is just a theory with no more validity than that of the moon landing being a hoax.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: dr e on Jul 18, 2007, 06:06 AM
Hard data about women being as violent?  Here's a start:

http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

Here's a taste of what you will find there:
Quote

Archer, J. (2000).  Sex differences in aggression between heterosexual partners: A meta-analytic review.  Psychological Bulletin, 126, 651-680. (Meta-analyses of sex differences in physical aggression indicate that women were more likely than men to "use one or more acts of physical aggression and to use such acts more frequently."  In terms of injuries, women were somewhat more likely to be injured, and analyses reveal that  62% of those injured were women.)


World famous researcher, renowned journal, important message. 
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 18, 2007, 07:11 AM

Hard data about women being as violent?  Here's a start:

http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

Here's a taste of what you will find there:
Quote

Archer, J. (2000).  Sex differences in aggression between heterosexual partners: A meta-analytic review.  Psychological Bulletin, 126, 651-680. (Meta-analyses of sex differences in physical aggression indicate that women were more likely than men to "use one or more acts of physical aggression and to use such acts more frequently."  In terms of injuries, women were somewhat more likely to be injured, and analyses reveal that  62% of those injured were women.)


World famous researcher, renowned journal, important message. 


And exceptionally nice cherry picking.  You didn't think I would read did you?

From your link:

Quote
Aizenman, M., & Kelley, G. (1988).  The incidence of violence and acquaintance rape in dating relationships among college men and women.  Journal of College Student Development, 29, 305-311.  (A sample of actively dating college students <204 women and 140 men> responded to a survey examining courtship violence.  Authors report that there were no significant differences between the sexes in self reported perpetration of physical abuse.)


You DID notice the difference in the figures for the first "study" here right?  Women questioned 2 to 1 compared to men and wow, the number of incidents equal?

It gets better though:

Quote
Arias, I., Samios, M., & O'Leary, K. D. (1987).  Prevalence and correlates of physical aggression during courtship. Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 2, 82-90. (Used Conflict Tactics Scale with a sample of 270 undergraduates <95 men, 175 women> and found 30% of men and 49% of women reported using some form of  aggression in their dating histories with a greater percentage of women engaging in severe physical aggression.)


Here again, a 2 to 1 ratio.  Is that the only way they can get equal numbers?  Something is wrong here.

Quote
Bernard, M. L., & Bernard, J. L. (1983).  Violent intimacy: The family as a model for love relationships.  Family Relations, 32, 283-286.  (Surveyed 461 college students, 168 men, 293 women, with regard to dating violence.  Found that 15% of the men admitted to physically abusing their partners, while 21% of women admitted to physically abusing their partners.)


What is it with this 2 to 1 ratio anyway?  Got to even those numbers out for the resulting data somehow I guess.

Interesting thing is they used this 2 to 1 ratio for each of these studies......well, not each of them.  Some of the studies employed a 3 to 1 ratio.  3 women compared to 1 man responding and then they reported the results as if it was an even response ratio?

Oh, you may need to know.  I'm a senior engineer for a research and development group for a major defense contractor.  I have an extremely thorough understanding of hard data and how it can be manipulated.

Let's try starting with studies that utilize data gathered from the same number of respondents from each gender pool.

You wouldn't want to try to employ skewed data now would you?

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 18, 2007, 07:42 AM
 skewed data like your feminist buddies at NOW or these VAWA lobby groups
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 18, 2007, 07:45 AM

skewed data like your feminist buddies at NOW or these VAWA lobby groups


I have no buddies in either group.............but nice try I guess.

And yeah, the date dr e posted was horribly skewed.

Care to deal with real numbers and data that isn't stacked to "prove" some point?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: dr e on Jul 18, 2007, 07:55 AM
O.h.  m.y   :yikes:

Cherry picking?  You have got to be kidding.  I give you a link with abstracts of over 150 studies and you call it cherry picking?  If we were giving grades here you would have to get an F.  Do you even know what a meta-analysis is?  If you did you wouldn't be barking about cherry picking.  Perhaps you can explain to us what a meta-analysis is.  LMFAO  Here's a clue:  Meta analysis looks at data from numerous previous studies and looks at trends in the data.  Most of these studies are peer reviewed.  You know what that means right?

I guess it was too much to ask to expect you to say something like, "Oh, thank you for providing the data I requested that would give a start in helping me understand that men and women are both perpetrators of violence."  Yeah, that would be what one might expect from someone who had integrity and maturity.  Enough said.


Quote
What is it with this 2 to 1 ratio anyway?  Got to even those numbers out for the resulting data somehow I guess.

Interesting thing is they used this 2 to 1 ratio for each of these studies......well, not each of them.  Some of the studies employed a 3 to 1 ratio.  3 women compared to 1 man responding and then they reported the results as if it was an even response ratio?


Okay, now this has me doubled over in laughter.  Are you serious?  Do you think the results are skewed because the samples contain more women then men?  Where did you go to school and what degree did you get?  What stats courses did you take?  I mean really.  Seriously, you are showing a profound ignorance of the basics of research.  I would guess that most high shcool students would know this sort of thing.  Please give us a lecture on sample size and it's impact on results.  I think that would be most entertaining.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 18, 2007, 07:59 AM

I've been reading through the thread this morning and have noted a couple of post claiming that women have an equal tendency of violence as do  men.  I wish someone would post the hard data to prove the claim.  It's easy to make a statement.....a bit tougher to back the statement.

Let's see the numbers.

And in response to yet another post..........nope the stats speak for themselves.  They do not get ignored just because they do not back a certain idea being pushed.  But here again that poster is arguing about an abstract theory as opposed to hard data.

If there is any hard data to prove the men and women are equally violent please post it.  I'd be interested in reading the study that backs the data.

Otherwise it is just a theory with no more validity than that of the moon landing being a hoax.


It's already been posted.  You dismissed it.  Or rather, THEM.

Don't Know:  Ignorant.
Can't Learn:  Dumb.
Don't wanna know:  Stupid.  Or Dishonest.

You poked at two.  And dismissed the rest of them based on that.  And you accused the Doc of Cherry Picking.

Funny - it's two of the same handful of cites that feminists ALWAYS cherry-pick out of the Feibert list.

But of course, you're not a feminist.

Yeahsureyabetcha.

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 18, 2007, 08:01 AM


skewed data like your feminist buddies at NOW or these VAWA lobby groups


I have no buddies in either group.............but nice try I guess.

And yeah, the date dr e posted was horribly skewed.

Care to deal with real numbers and data that isn't stacked to "prove" some point?


and if the sudies he cited are skewed, what about the studies cited by   the NOW lobbyists about  "1 in 4 women raped" all that...........if us evil men can skew a stat, would your virtuous  oppressed sisters at NOW know how to skew a stat also
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: dr e on Jul 18, 2007, 08:11 AM
Don't worry Tony, the studies are fine.  The problem is that she/he is flailing for anything to criticise in order to not have to admit that the research makes him/her look like an uninformed, biased and brainwashed idealogue.  It's a diversion technique to draw attention away from the original question.  Parents have seen this maneuver over and over from their little kids. 

And so it goes.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 18, 2007, 08:18 AM

Don't worry Tony, the studies are fine.  The problem is that she/he is flailing for anything to criticise in order to not have to admit that the research makes him/her look like an uninformed, biased and brainwashed idealogue.  It's a diversion technique to draw attention away from the original question.  Parents have seen this maneuver over and over from their little kids. 

And so it goes.


Since she's done nothing but lie from the get go here, she also acts all offended that people call her on it, too.  And then acts all smug with "None of you guys will debate me fairly!"

Feminition:  "Fairly" = Accepting my premises however unproven.

Troll.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 18, 2007, 08:24 AM

O.h.  m.y   :yikes:

Cherry picking?  You have got to be kidding.  I give you a link with abstracts of over 150 studies and you call it cherry picking?  If we were giving grades here you would have to get an F.  Do you even know what a meta-analysis is?  If you did you wouldn't be barking about cherry picking.  Perhaps you can explain to us what a meta-analysis is.  LMFAO  Here's a clue:  Meta analysis looks at data from numerous previous studies and looks at trends in the data.  Most of these studies are peer reviewed.  You know what that means right?

I guess it was too much to ask to expect you to say something like, "Oh, thank you for providing the data I requested that would give a start in helping me understand that men and women are both perpetrators of violence."  Yeah, that would be what one might expect from someone who had integrity and maturity.  Enough said.


Quote
What is it with this 2 to 1 ratio anyway?  Got to even those numbers out for the resulting data somehow I guess.

Interesting thing is they used this 2 to 1 ratio for each of these studies......well, not each of them.  Some of the studies employed a 3 to 1 ratio.  3 women compared to 1 man responding and then they reported the results as if it was an even response ratio?


Okay, now this has me doubled over in laughter.  Are you serious?  Do you think the results are skewed because the samples contain more women then men?  Where did you go to school and what degree did you get?  What stats courses did you take?  I mean really.  Seriously, you are showing a profound ignorance of the basics of research.  I would guess that most high shcool students would know this sort of thing.  Please give us a lecture on sample size and it's impact on results.  I think that would be most entertaining.


Yes it would skew the numbers.  But then that was the reason they chose to do their little "studies" in such a fashion.

What a shame you fell for it.

And no, I don't teach high school.  You did read earlier what it is I do huh?

I do teach on an adjunct level for Tulane's engineering department.  Third and fourth year classes only though.

Just a bit above the high school level.  No problem with your assumptions.  They are amusing.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 18, 2007, 08:28 AM



skewed data like your feminist buddies at NOW or these VAWA lobby groups


I have no buddies in either group.............but nice try I guess.

And yeah, the date dr e posted was horribly skewed.

Care to deal with real numbers and data that isn't stacked to "prove" some point?


and if the sudies he cited are skewed, what about the studies cited by   the NOW lobbyists about  "1 in 4 women raped" all that...........if us evil men can skew a stat, would your virtuous  oppressed sisters at NOW know how to skew a stat also


Could be, that's why I do not use figures from NOW.  Figures used by groups that have a set agenda usually stay within the scope of that agenda.

Like the men's rights groups.  They do the same thing.  But please post more and ignore the hard data derived by the Department of Justice, FBI, and the CDC.

Now would you like to quote a single post where I've sited anything to do with NOW?

Or do you just prefer to throw out a little more straw?  Makes for a nice nest I guess but does nothing for the debate.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 18, 2007, 08:31 AM


O.h.  m.y   :yikes:

Cherry picking?  You have got to be kidding.  I give you a link with abstracts of over 150 studies and you call it cherry picking?  If we were giving grades here you would have to get an F.  Do you even know what a meta-analysis is?  If you did you wouldn't be barking about cherry picking.  Perhaps you can explain to us what a meta-analysis is.  LMFAO  Here's a clue:  Meta analysis looks at data from numerous previous studies and looks at trends in the data.  Most of these studies are peer reviewed.  You know what that means right?

I guess it was too much to ask to expect you to say something like, "Oh, thank you for providing the data I requested that would give a start in helping me understand that men and women are both perpetrators of violence."  Yeah, that would be what one might expect from someone who had integrity and maturity.  Enough said.


Quote
What is it with this 2 to 1 ratio anyway?  Got to even those numbers out for the resulting data somehow I guess.

Interesting thing is they used this 2 to 1 ratio for each of these studies......well, not each of them.  Some of the studies employed a 3 to 1 ratio.  3 women compared to 1 man responding and then they reported the results as if it was an even response ratio?


Okay, now this has me doubled over in laughter.  Are you serious?  Do you think the results are skewed because the samples contain more women then men?  Where did you go to school and what degree did you get?  What stats courses did you take?  I mean really.  Seriously, you are showing a profound ignorance of the basics of research.  I would guess that most high shcool students would know this sort of thing.  Please give us a lecture on sample size and it's impact on results.  I think that would be most entertaining.


Yes it would skew the numbers.  But then that was the reason they chose to do their little "studies" in such a fashion.

What a shame you fell for it.

And no, I don't teach high school.  You did read earlier what it is I do huh?

I do teach on an adjunct level for Tulane's engineering department.  Third and fourth year classes only though.

Just a bit above the high school level.  No problem with your assumptions.  They are amusing.


your from louisana, that explains alot
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 18, 2007, 08:38 AM



O.h.  m.y   :yikes:

Cherry picking?  You have got to be kidding.  I give you a link with abstracts of over 150 studies and you call it cherry picking?  If we were giving grades here you would have to get an F.  Do you even know what a meta-analysis is?  If you did you wouldn't be barking about cherry picking.  Perhaps you can explain to us what a meta-analysis is.  LMFAO  Here's a clue:  Meta analysis looks at data from numerous previous studies and looks at trends in the data.  Most of these studies are peer reviewed.  You know what that means right?

I guess it was too much to ask to expect you to say something like, "Oh, thank you for providing the data I requested that would give a start in helping me understand that men and women are both perpetrators of violence."  Yeah, that would be what one might expect from someone who had integrity and maturity.  Enough said.


Quote
What is it with this 2 to 1 ratio anyway?  Got to even those numbers out for the resulting data somehow I guess.

Interesting thing is they used this 2 to 1 ratio for each of these studies......well, not each of them.  Some of the studies employed a 3 to 1 ratio.  3 women compared to 1 man responding and then they reported the results as if it was an even response ratio?


Okay, now this has me doubled over in laughter.  Are you serious?  Do you think the results are skewed because the samples contain more women then men?  Where did you go to school and what degree did you get?  What stats courses did you take?  I mean really.  Seriously, you are showing a profound ignorance of the basics of research.  I would guess that most high shcool students would know this sort of thing.  Please give us a lecture on sample size and it's impact on results.  I think that would be most entertaining.


Yes it would skew the numbers.  But then that was the reason they chose to do their little "studies" in such a fashion.

What a shame you fell for it.

And no, I don't teach high school.  You did read earlier what it is I do huh?

I do teach on an adjunct level for Tulane's engineering department.  Third and fourth year classes only though.

Just a bit above the high school level.  No problem with your assumptions.  They are amusing.


your from louisana, that explains alot


Wrong again.

But then if you know nothing of the college network in this country; I'll understand your ignorance.

Tulane is based in LA, but has a variety of satellite campuses.  You see they are way up the ladder when it comes to the engineering world.

Now what does that have to do with your silly assertions anyway? 

Does it really bother you that I don't have to ask..........do you want fries with that?..........in order to earn a living?  Or are you attempting to compensate for some shortcoming here?

Do you understand the difference between an abstract theory on which to base a study and hard data?

Do you comprehend that if you stack respondants by 2 to 1 or 3 to 1 that it will skew the results?

Have you even tried to question why these "studies" were done using such a method?

See if you can stay on topic please.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 18, 2007, 08:43 AM
Huey LOng, one of my favorite historical figures , went to TUlane.

and no it doesnt bother me  that you dont have to say  "do you want fries with that"
I dont like seeing anybody poor, regardless of weather I really like them are not.
congrats on being able to have a good career.
and yes I "comprehend" that the larger group in a study is going to have more incidence of whatever the studiers are looking for. I just find it Ironic that not so many pages earlier, who me?,  when I was trying to  say that stats werent gospel, this is not the tune you were singing
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: dr e on Jul 18, 2007, 08:54 AM
Okay who me?, now it is time for you to show off your academic skills and statistical knowledge and explain to us how having twice as many females in the sample will skew the results.   :happy1:
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 18, 2007, 09:02 AM
Let's stop a minute, brothers, and take a look at the dynamic here.

Just this morning, the very feminist inspired bill to ban mention of parental alienation in California was defeated.

This is the latest in the incremental, but steady, list of victories we have achieved.

These victories have come not from being quiet, respectful, and compliant - but from being loud, angry, and vocal.

Or - what our feminist troll terms - "Whining."

Why do you think, then, that she shows up wanting us to stop "whining?"

(http://www.creators.com/comics/41/7865_thumb.gif)

Visualize a world where feminine privilege is removed.  Where "chivalry" is something to be earned, and not a birthright.  Where "Sugar and spice and everything nice" is snickered at as the myth it is.

Where the above becomes the the option for women who don't want to be treated "equally."

Where the high trump cards of false accusation and stealing a man's livelihood, property, and children isn't removed from the deck and handed to the female before the cards are dealt.

It took fifty years for men to be effectively disenfranchised, so fixing it isn't going to happen over night, but when you look at the big picture, it is moving inexorably there.  The pendulum is returning.  The backlash has begun.

I notice many fine and strong women, like Jen TBQ, who treats her husband with respect, do not fear this.  They don't want or urge us to return to the days of standing meekly, hat in hand, asking nicely and keeping civil; of re-embracing strategy and tactics that did not work.

Others, though, want to shame us into that - into abandoning what works, and returning to things which didn't.

Hmmm.

Wonder why that is?

What are they afraid of?

"You could try being nice to them?"
Title: DVstats.com
Post by: . on Jul 18, 2007, 09:29 AM
I've been reading through the thread this morning and have noted a couple of post claiming that women have an equal tendency of violence as do  men.  I wish someone would post the hard data to prove the claim.  It's easy to make a statement.....a bit tougher to back the statement.

Let's see the numbers.


I created one Web site to give you a birds eye view of ALL the major studies in this vein:

DVstats.com
http://www.dvstats.com/

This is a search engine that will let you sort and filter the studies on a variety of levels.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: typhonblue on Jul 18, 2007, 09:36 AM

Yes it would skew the numbers.  But then that was the reason they chose to do their little "studies" in such a fashion.

What a shame you fell for it.

And no, I don't teach high school.  You did read earlier what it is I do huh?

I do teach on an adjunct level for Tulane's engineering department.  Third and fourth year classes only though.

Just a bit above the high school level.  No problem with your assumptions.  They are amusing.


Wow. You teach _engineering_ and you don't even have _any_ grasp of statistics?

These studies may have more women but they are comparing _precentages_ not absolute instances.

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 18, 2007, 09:41 AM


Yes it would skew the numbers.  But then that was the reason they chose to do their little "studies" in such a fashion.

What a shame you fell for it.

And no, I don't teach high school.  You did read earlier what it is I do huh?

I do teach on an adjunct level for Tulane's engineering department.  Third and fourth year classes only though.

Just a bit above the high school level.  No problem with your assumptions.  They are amusing.


Wow. You teach _engineering_ and you don't even have _any_ grasp of statistics?

These studies may have more women but they are comparing _precentages_ not absolute instances.




Yes I do understand stats very well.  I understand them well enough to comprehend there is a reason each and every one of the "studies" that were cited used the ratio female to male for a reason.

Percentages can be manipulated using such a strategy.  The "studies" cited are evidence of just that.

Too bad you fell for it.  It doesn't follow that everyone has to do the same.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: typhonblue on Jul 18, 2007, 09:48 AM



Yes it would skew the numbers.  But then that was the reason they chose to do their little "studies" in such a fashion.

What a shame you fell for it.

And no, I don't teach high school.  You did read earlier what it is I do huh?

I do teach on an adjunct level for Tulane's engineering department.  Third and fourth year classes only though.

Just a bit above the high school level.  No problem with your assumptions.  They are amusing.


Wow. You teach _engineering_ and you don't even have _any_ grasp of statistics?

These studies may have more women but they are comparing _precentages_ not absolute instances.




Yes I do understand stats very well.  I understand them well enough to comprehend there is a reason each and every one of the "studies" that were cited used the ratio female to male for a reason.

Percentages can be manipulated using such a strategy.  The "studies" cited are evidence of just that.

Too bad you fell for it.  It doesn't follow that everyone has to do the same.


What the hell are you talking about?

If they find that 10% of 400 women are violent and 10% of 200 men are violent, how are these _not_ equal rates of violence in the populations studied? The implication is that when you take this statistical analysis to the general population, you find that 10% of men _and_ women are violent.

You might argue that having a sample size of 200 gives less confidence to say that it is representational of the general male population--although I doubt the difference in confidence is anything more then a fraction of a precent.

As for there being more women then men... often these studies are based on psychology undergraduate volunteers. I'll leave it to the imagination the sex-ratios in the average pyschology undergraduate class.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 18, 2007, 09:51 AM

Yes I do understand stats very well.  I understand them well enough to comprehend there is a reason each and every one of the "studies" that were cited used the ratio female to male for a reason.

Percentages can be manipulated using such a strategy.  The "studies" cited are evidence of just that.

Too bad you fell for it.  It doesn't follow that everyone has to do the same.


Wow.

I didn't even have to scroll past the first page of the Fiebert Bibliography to find out that "each and every one" is a lie.

Quote
Archer, J. (2000).  Sex differences in aggression between heterosexual partners: A meta-analytic review.  Psychological Bulletin, 126, 651-680. (Meta-analyses of sex differences in physical aggression indicate that women were more likely than men to "use one or more acts of physical aggression and to use such acts more frequently."  In terms of injuries, women were somewhat more likely to be injured, and analyses reveal that  62% of those injured were women.)

No Numbers listed.  Lie number 1.

    Archer, J. (2002).  Sex differences in physically aggressive acts between heterosexual partners: A meta-analytic review.  Aggression and Violent Behavior, 7, 213-351.  (Analyzing responses to the Conflict Tactic Scale and using a data set somewhat different from the previous 2000 publication, the author reports that women are more likely than men to throw something at their partners, as well as slap, kick, bite, punch and hit with an object.  Men were more likely than women to strangle, choke, or beat up their partners.)

No Numbers cited.  Lie number 2.

     Archer, J., & Ray, N. (1989).  Dating violence in the United Kingdom: a preliminary study.  Aggressive Behavior, 15, 337-343. (Twenty three dating couples completed the Conflict Tactics scale.  Results indicate that women were significantly more likely than their male partners to express physical violence.  Authors also report that, "measures of partner agreement were high" and that the correlation between past and present violence was low.)

Equal numbers - not 2:1.  Lie number 3.

     Arias, I., & Johnson, P. (1989).  Evaluations of physical  aggression among intimate dyads.  Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 4, 298-307. (Used Conflict Tactics Scale-CTS- with a sample of 103 male and 99 female undergraduates. Both men and women had similar experience with dating violence, 19% of women and 18% of men admitted being physically aggressive.  A significantly greater percentage of women thought self-defense was a legitimate reason for men to be aggressive,  while a greater percentage of men thought slapping was a legitimate response for a man or woman if their partner was sexually unfaithful.)

MORE men than women.  Lie number 4.



You'd think someone who was going to lie would use something not easily checked! 

Whoopsie!  Maybe you should actually read them - instead of invoking lie number 5 - and you might not look like a fucking idiot.

And yet look who keeps demanding "honesty?"

Add "Liar" and "Hypocrite" to "Troll."
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 18, 2007, 10:05 AM


Yes it would skew the numbers.  But then that was the reason they chose to do their little "studies" in such a fashion.

What a shame you fell for it.

And no, I don't teach high school.  You did read earlier what it is I do huh?

I do teach on an adjunct level for Tulane's engineering department.  Third and fourth year classes only though.

Just a bit above the high school level.  No problem with your assumptions.  They are amusing.


Wow. You teach _engineering_ and you don't even have _any_ grasp of statistics?

These studies may have more women but they are comparing _precentages_ not absolute instances.


Higher education - academic dishonesty.

Kind of a tautology anymore, sad to say.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 18, 2007, 10:07 AM




Yes it would skew the numbers.  But then that was the reason they chose to do their little "studies" in such a fashion.

What a shame you fell for it.

And no, I don't teach high school.  You did read earlier what it is I do huh?

I do teach on an adjunct level for Tulane's engineering department.  Third and fourth year classes only though.

Just a bit above the high school level.  No problem with your assumptions.  They are amusing.


Wow. You teach _engineering_ and you don't even have _any_ grasp of statistics?

These studies may have more women but they are comparing _precentages_ not absolute instances.




Yes I do understand stats very well.  I understand them well enough to comprehend there is a reason each and every one of the "studies" that were cited used the ratio female to male for a reason.

Percentages can be manipulated using such a strategy.  The "studies" cited are evidence of just that.

Too bad you fell for it.  It doesn't follow that everyone has to do the same.


What the hell are you talking about?

If they find that 10% of 400 women are violent and 10% of 200 men are violent, how are these _not_ equal rates of violence in the populations studied? The implication is that when you take this statistical analysis to the general population, you find that 10% of men _and_ women are violent.

You might argue that having a sample size of 200 gives less confidence to say that it is representational of the general male population--although I doubt the difference in confidence is anything more then a fraction of a precent.

As for there being more women then men... often these studies are based on psychology undergraduate volunteers. I'll leave it to the imagination the sex-ratios in the average pyschology undergraduate class.


I doubt it.  There is a reason that each and every one of those "studies" was skewed the way they were.

Also you have no idea where the respondents came from.  You ASSume a psychology undergrad group but we have no way of knowing that for sure.

There's a reason for the ratio discrepancy.  I do not know that in my line of work "studies" using such outrageous ratios would not be taken seriously.  The ratios speak for themselves.

If you set out to prove a specific abstract instead of letting the numbers fall where they may.............you can manipulate the results quite well.

Maybe you do not understand that?   But then like someone said earlier..........there are some that like "studies" as long as they feel the numbers work in their favor to prove some abstract theory.

Kind of like the abstract theory that became the thesis of the OP.  Just more blather that can not be proved.

If that's what floats your boat.........happy sailing!
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: . on Jul 18, 2007, 10:08 AM
Guys, I think it's a fair question.  I too have noticed the pattern, where a large portion of the studies do have a substantially larger female component in the sample.  I think it's a bit premature for "Who Me" to assume that the numbers have been cooked, as there are proper controls built in to the studies to compensate for the disparity.  That is also why such studies are published in peer-reviewed journals and subject to professional criticism.  If the larger scientific community has not made an issue of this (but ideologues have), that tells you about where the true bias is coming from.  These studies have been around now for several years, and have had more than enough opportunity for undergoing peer review.  They are still valid and have not been discredited, which tells you something!

To shed more light on the subject, I have contacted John Hamel, a licensed clinical social worker who has done extensive research into this field.  He is helping to put on the February 2008 conference entitled, "From Ideology to Inclusion:  Evidence-Based Policy and Intervention in Domestic Violence":
http://www.nfvlrc.org/docs/NFVLRC_2008.Pre_Anounce__conf_flier.pdf

John also put together a conference on the mutuality of domestic violence some time in late 2006, which I attended.  Both conferences were created to provide education to social workers, first-responders, DV counselors, and others in the system in order to see the problems in light of the data, rather than through the lens of gender bias.  When I receive his response to the question of why women in the samples outnumber men (and how this is accounted for), I will post it here.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 18, 2007, 10:09 AM



Yes it would skew the numbers.  But then that was the reason they chose to do their little "studies" in such a fashion.

What a shame you fell for it.

And no, I don't teach high school.  You did read earlier what it is I do huh?

I do teach on an adjunct level for Tulane's engineering department.  Third and fourth year classes only though.

Just a bit above the high school level.  No problem with your assumptions.  They are amusing.


Wow. You teach _engineering_ and you don't even have _any_ grasp of statistics?

These studies may have more women but they are comparing _precentages_ not absolute instances.


Higher education - academic dishonesty.

Kind of a tautology anymore, sad to say.


Nope, guess you missed what my primary career is all about.  I only teach on an adjunct level.  If you do not understand that word...........dictionary.com is a wonderful thing.

What's wrong Gonz?  Didn't go to college at all? :laughing6:
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 18, 2007, 10:11 AM
does not going to an acedemic college  make you stupid or something in yoru eyes, who me?

and I wouldnt dispute your claim that the results MIGHT be different  if the control groups were equal as far as gender...but then again the results would vary if  the age of the control group was changed, race, or sociaoeconomic class
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 18, 2007, 10:13 AM

Guys, I think it's a fair question.  I too have noticed the pattern, where a large portion of the studies do have a substantially larger female component in the sample.  I think it's a bit premature for "Who Me" to assume that the numbers have been cooked, as there are proper controls built in to the studies to compensate for the disparity.  That is also why such studies are published in peer-reviewed journals and subject to professional criticism.  If the larger scientific community has not made an issue of this (but ideologues have), that tells you about where the true bias is coming from.  These studies have been around now for several years, and have had more than enough opportunity for undergoing peer review.  They are still valid and have not been discredited, which tells you something!

To shed more light on the subject, I have contacted Dr. John Hamel, a licensed clinical social worker who has done extensive research into this field.  He is helping to put on the February 2008 conference entitled, "From Ideology to Inclusion:  Evidence-Based Policy and Intervention in Domestic Violence":
http://www.nfvlrc.org/docs/NFVLRC_2008.Pre_Anounce__conf_flier.pdf

John also put together a conference on the mutuality of domestic violence some time in early 2006, which I attended.  Both conferences were created to provide education to social workers, first-responders, DV counselors, and others in the system in order to see the problems in light of the data, rather than through the lens of gender bias.  When I receive his response to the question of why women in the samples outnumber men (and how this is accounted for), I will post it here.


I would also be interested to find out just where they get their respondents.

A psychology undergrad group would not give a good overall when you are talking about such issues.  There's a good possibility that the majority have never been married.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: dr e on Jul 18, 2007, 10:16 AM
I am still waiting for who me to tell us how a 2 to 1 female to male sample can skew the results.  Explain this for us will you?  Don't spare the detail.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 18, 2007, 10:18 AM

does not going to an acedemic college  make you stupid or something in yoru eyes, who me?

and I wouldnt dispute your claim that the results MIGHT be different  if the control groups were equal as far as gender...but then again the results would vary if  the age of the control group was changed, race, or sociaoeconomic class


No, I wasn't saying that anyone is stupid.  But to assume that anyone that has been to college would have one political slant or another is a bit more than ignorant.

I'm as conservative as you can get.  My political views have little to do with my educational background.

Teaching is a secondary career for me.  In case you missed it; I work with a research and development group for a defense contractor.  You won't find many libs doing that type of thing for a living.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: . on Jul 18, 2007, 10:18 AM
I would also be interested to find out just where they get their respondents.

A psychology undergrad group would not give a good overall when you are talking about such issues.  There's a good possibility that the majority have never been married.


"Who Me," I invite you to visit my search engine, DVstats.com (http://www.dvstats.com/).  You can filter out studies that pertain only to "dating violence," as well as limiting results only to those studies with a sample.  In addition, I provide links to the actual studies.  Every empirical study that expects to survive peer review is required to explain its sample, its methods of data collection, etc.  You'll learn the answer to these questions by reading the actual studies, which you can get to by clicking on the "Read Me" link next to each study.

And yes, it is true that in a lot of these studies, only college students are surveyed.  But there are also government studies, especially one done in Canada with a sample of 26,000.  These widen the scope a little.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Garak on Jul 18, 2007, 10:20 AM

I am still waiting for who me to tell us how a 2 to 1 female to male sample can skew the results.  Explain this for us will you?  Don't spare the detail.



If I were you Dr E, I wouldn't put lunch on the back burner waiting for her to answer.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 18, 2007, 10:24 AM


does not going to an acedemic college  make you stupid or something in yoru eyes, who me?

and I wouldnt dispute your claim that the results MIGHT be different  if the control groups were equal as far as gender...but then again the results would vary if  the age of the control group was changed, race, or sociaoeconomic class


No, I wasn't saying that anyone is stupid.  But to assume that anyone that has been to college would have one political slant or another is a bit more than ignorant.

I'm as conservative as you can get.  My political views have little to do with my educational background.

Teaching is a secondary career for me.  In case you missed it; I work with a research and development group for a defense contractor.  You won't find many libs doing that type of thing for a living.



fair enough......but I can tell you this...................there aint a statistical study  done on any social issue that isnt pre  skewed to  prove a point......studies are used to get funding
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: . on Jul 18, 2007, 10:24 AM
Here's a link (http://www.dvstats.com/search.cfm?author=&theyearcriteria=lte&theyear=2007&title=&source=&description=&dv=yes&ctsExclude=no&fGTdvExclude=no&fEQdvExclude=no&dating=yes&datingExclude=yes&malesamplecriteria=gte&malesampleqty=&femalesamplecriteria=gte&femalesampleqty=&totalsamplecriteria=gte&totalsampleqty=1) to all the studies in the Fiebert bibliography that:

1.  Contain an empirical sample
2.  Exclude "dating violence"

Some may still include college students in the sample.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 18, 2007, 10:39 AM
I doubt it.  There is a reason that each and every one of those "studies" was skewed the way they were.


The already debunked "each and every one" lie again.

"If a lie is repeated often enough, soon it will come to be accepted as truth."  - Josef Goebbels, Propaganda minister to Adolf Hitler
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: typhonblue on Jul 18, 2007, 10:40 AM

There's a reason for the ratio discrepancy.  I do not know that in my line of work "studies" using such outrageous ratios would not be taken seriously.  The ratios speak for themselves.



What is your concern regarding the sample sizes? The researchers are comparing _weighted_ rates, not absolute. (If they were comparing absolute they would say somthing like "women are twice as violent as men".)

Do you think that the researchers are dividing the absolute instances in the male sample by the size of the female sample?

Or are you concerned that the sample sizes for the men are too small to generate sufficent confidence in their accuracy as applied to the general population?

In that case I would say both male and female sample sizes are too small for high degrees of confidence.

You'd need a sample size of 16000+ to get a 99% confidence level with a +/-1% interval, for a population as large as the US.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 18, 2007, 10:41 AM
Nope, guess you missed what my primary career is all about.  I only teach on an adjunct level.  If you do not understand that word...........dictionary.com is a wonderful thing.

What's wrong Gonz?  Didn't go to college at all? :laughing6:


No, I was just good enough to get a professorship.  And tenure.

You might get more if you weren't a proven liar.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 18, 2007, 10:43 AM

Here's a link (http://www.dvstats.com/search.cfm?author=&theyearcriteria=lte&theyear=2007&title=&source=&description=&dv=yes&ctsExclude=no&fGTdvExclude=no&fEQdvExclude=no&dating=yes&datingExclude=yes&malesamplecriteria=gte&malesampleqty=&femalesamplecriteria=gte&femalesampleqty=&totalsamplecriteria=gte&totalsampleqty=1) to all the studies in the Fiebert bibliography that:

1.  Contain an empirical sample
2.  Exclude "dating violence"

Some may still include college students in the sample.


Wow.

That proves again that the whole "each and every one" is not merely a lie, but a bald-faced lie.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 18, 2007, 10:49 AM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Aizenman, M., & Kelley, G. (1988).  The incidence of violence and acquaintance rape in dating relationships among college men and women.  Journal of College Student Development, 29, 305-311.  (A sample of actively dating college students <204 women and 140 men> responded to a survey examining courtship violence.  Authors report that there were no significant differences between the sexes in self reported perpetration of physical abuse.)


You DID notice the difference in the figures for the first "study" here right?  Women questioned 2 to 1 compared to men and wow, the number of incidents equal?


Please don't assume.  It says "responded," please provide "proof," that the study "questioned" women two to one.  If an equal number of men were "questioned," but half did not respond, that may also account for the results.   Also, was the number of incidents equal in percentage or actual numbers.  Please don't be sloppy like a gender feminist, but report honestly.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Mr. X on Jul 18, 2007, 10:49 AM

Our society is becoming more violent over a period of time.  In my opinion one of the reasons for that is the excuse making that goes on.  You know the........oh that happened because she is home with the kids more than he is or he was upset over child support..........etc...etc...etc.


So how do you explain violent crime rates DECLINING since 1994

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viort.htm

Property crime rates declined
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/house2.htm

Rape has gone from 2.5/1000 to .5/1000 which is a decline of 500%
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/viortrdtab.htm

And violent crime against both sexes have dropped
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/vsx2.htm

Sorry but your claim doesn't prove out. Society isn't getting more violent. Maybe this shows men do listen and act.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 18, 2007, 10:54 AM


There's a reason for the ratio discrepancy.  I do not know that in my line of work "studies" using such outrageous ratios would not be taken seriously.  The ratios speak for themselves.



What is your concern regarding the sample sizes? The researchers are comparing _weighted_ rates, not absolute. (If they were comparing absolute they would say somthing like "women are twice as violent as men".)

Do you think that the researchers are dividing the absolute instances in the male sample by the size of the female sample?

Or are you concerned that the sample sizes for the men are too small to generate sufficent confidence in their accuracy as applied to the general population?

In that case I would say both male and female sample sizes are too small for high degrees of confidence.

You'd need a sample size of 16000+ to get a 99% confidence level with a +/-1% interval, for a population as large as the US.


I would tend to agree that there were not enough respondents to draw a strong conclusion in any direction.

The best you could hope for is the statement.......a certain percentage of those who responded.  But that of course would fall far short of any goal.

I am perplexed by the 2 to 1 and 3 to 1 ratios used in the posted studies.  Based on the consistency of use there is a reason for it.  Like I said, when you set out to prove a specific theory you can cherry pick the respondents and almost guarantee results.

It's the reason I prefer hard data.

But even that is unreliable because as we all know a man that is abused in a relationship is far less likely to press charges than a woman that is abused in a relationship.

The number of convictions of women for violent offenses does point to the fact that women are more likely to act out violently now than they have been in years past.

But then the same can be said for any group at this point.  Violence in general is more widespread than it was in days before and the level of violence is now more savage than in days passed.

My advice to a man that is being abused is press charges and carry through with those charges.  But then my advice to a woman in that situation would be the same.  Domestic violence (and I use that term because I do not see harsh language as violence) should not be tolerated.  It doesn't matter who is on the receiving end and who is dishing it out.

No excuses, no tolerance.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 18, 2007, 10:58 AM
Quote
Nope, guess you missed what my primary career is all about.  I only teach on an adjunct level.  If you do not understand that word...........dictionary.com is a wonderful thing.


Quote
ad·junct  

ad·junct [ájjungkt]
n (plural ad·juncts)
1.  something extra added on: something inessential added to something else  
2.  assistant: somebody who assists and is subordinate to somebody else  
3.  grammar inessential part of sentence: a part of a sentence that is not the subject or predicate  


adj
attached temporarily to a staff: assigned temporarily or as an auxiliary member to the staff of an institution
an adjunct professor of art history



[Early 16th century. From Latin adjunctus , the past participle of adjungere (see adjoin).]


-ad·junc·tion [ə júngksh'n], n
-ad·junc·tive, adj
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 18, 2007, 11:00 AM


Our society is becoming more violent over a period of time.  In my opinion one of the reasons for that is the excuse making that goes on.  You know the........oh that happened because she is home with the kids more than he is or he was upset over child support..........etc...etc...etc.


So how do you explain violent crime rates DECLINING since 1994

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viort.htm

Property crime rates declined
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/house2.htm

Rape has gone from 2.5/1000 to .5/1000 which is a decline of 500%
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/viortrdtab.htm

And violent crime against both sexes have dropped
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/vsx2.htm

Sorry but your claim doesn't prove out. Society isn't getting more violent. Maybe this shows men do listen and act.


If what you posted is accurate............wouldn't it point to people in general listening?

Or is it your contention that men alone were responsible for violent acts in days gone bye?

I based my claim on the types of crimes we now see.  When I was a child you did not read about people being convicted of torture at the frequency of conviction for that crime today.

Maybe you are right and we are as a society on the right track.  Considering some of the trash you see in the local news and national news; you could easily come to a different conclusion.

It could be more of a level of violence over a frequency thing.

Either way; neither frequency or level should be ignored, excused, or tolerated.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: . on Jul 18, 2007, 11:00 AM
I think those who would question the validity of this research owe it to themselves to read the actual studies.  There is a subtle (and sometimes overt) insinuation that academic research that reveals the pain men are living in -- and the double standards that they face as they express their pain -- is some political charade.  This has got to stop.

I ask that anyone who wants to throw out such charges actually read some of the studies.  Attached is an excellent study that I personally have read, and recommend (in PDF format):

"Deconstructing self-defense in wife-to-husband violence"
Published in The Journal of Men's Studies on March 22, 2004
Author:  Sarantakos, Sotirios

This is a fantastic study.  It takes on several myths promoted by gender feminists, namely:

1.  Domestic violence is perpetrated only by women
2.  If women perpetrate violence, it is only in self-defense against male violence
3.  If women initiate violence, it is only in self-defense against a pervasive patriarchal environment based on male power and privilege

There is an actual sample that goes beyond interviews of just the husband and wife (in determining female-on-male violence).  They also included members of the family, as well as the mother of the wife.

Again, fantastic study.  Please take a look (see attached PDF).
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 18, 2007, 11:01 AM



Our society is becoming more violent over a period of time.  In my opinion one of the reasons for that is the excuse making that goes on.  You know the........oh that happened because she is home with the kids more than he is or he was upset over child support..........etc...etc...etc.


So how do you explain violent crime rates DECLINING since 1994

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viort.htm

Property crime rates declined
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/house2.htm

Rape has gone from 2.5/1000 to .5/1000 which is a decline of 500%
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/viortrdtab.htm

And violent crime against both sexes have dropped
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/vsx2.htm

Sorry but your claim doesn't prove out. Society isn't getting more violent. Maybe this shows men do listen and act.


If what you posted is accurate............wouldn't it point to people in general listening?

Or is it your contention that men alone were responsible for violent acts in days gone bye?

I based my claim on the types of crimes we now see.  When I was a child you did not read about people being convicted of torture at the frequency of conviction for that crime today.

Maybe you are right and we are as a society on the right track.  Considering some of the trash you see in the local news and national news; you could easily come to a different conclusion.

It could be more of a level of violence over a frequency thing.

Either way; neither frequency or level should be ignored, excused, or tolerated.


a lot of  that has to do with the globalization of media, you see more of the seedy side now, its always been ther
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: CaptDMO on Jul 18, 2007, 11:05 AM



No, I wasn't saying that anyone is stupid.  But to assume that anyone that has been to college would have one political slant or another is a bit more than ignorant.

Depends, fresh from school is one thing, but even college grads learn SOMETHING eventually.
Quote

I'm as conservative as you can get.
In My Humble Opinion, your posts contradict
that position.
Quote
My political views have little to do with my educational background.
Apparently the inverse holds true as well.

Quote
Teaching is a secondary career for me.  In case you missed it; I work with a research and development group for a defense contractor.
Let's seeee....where do I remember this claim from....oh yeaaah!. Oh! Nope, it was a "research for petrochemical polymers in a Louisiana plant, It was a different name too, I'll look it up! .
Quote
You won't find many libs doing that type of thing for a living.
True, "humanities" and "Contemporary Cinema Administration" ill prepares one for such a trade. What does that have to do with um...anything?

Quote from: whome
Also you have no idea where the respondents came from.  You ASSume a psychology undergrad group but we have no way of knowing that for sure.

Quote from: whome
A psychology undergrad group would not give a good overall when you are talking about such issues.  There's a good possibility that the majority have never been married.

Sorry, you're only allowed to use a monkey wrench in one direction at a time.


Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 18, 2007, 11:06 AM

Quote
Nope, guess you missed what my primary career is all about.  I only teach on an adjunct level.  If you do not understand that word...........dictionary.com is a wonderful thing.


Quote
ad·junct  

ad·junct [ájjungkt]
n (plural ad·juncts)
1.  something extra added on: something inessential added to something else  
2.  assistant: somebody who assists and is subordinate to somebody else  
3.  grammar inessential part of sentence: a part of a sentence that is not the subject or predicate  


adj
attached temporarily to a staff: assigned temporarily or as an auxiliary member to the staff of an institution
an adjunct professor of art history



[Early 16th century. From Latin adjunctus , the past participle of adjungere (see adjoin).]


-ad·junc·tion [ə júngksh'n], n
-ad·junc·tive, adj
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.




All that for part time?  I've been part of the adjunct faculty for 17 years.  How's that for temporary and unneeded? :laughing6:

Why would I want to take a $15,000 a year decrease in pay to become part of the full time faculty?  I teach because I love it.

I do research and development because it is my passion and it is highly profitable.  There is nothing cooler than building something and then testing it to its extreme limit.



Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Garak on Jul 18, 2007, 11:09 AM


Quote
Nope, guess you missed what my primary career is all about.  I only teach on an adjunct level.  If you do not understand that word...........dictionary.com is a wonderful thing.


Quote
ad·junct  

ad·junct [ájjungkt]
n (plural ad·juncts)
1.  something extra added on: something inessential added to something else  
2.  assistant: somebody who assists and is subordinate to somebody else  
3.  grammar inessential part of sentence: a part of a sentence that is not the subject or predicate  


adj
attached temporarily to a staff: assigned temporarily or as an auxiliary member to the staff of an institution
an adjunct professor of art history



[Early 16th century. From Latin adjunctus , the past participle of adjungere (see adjoin).]


-ad·junc·tion [ə júngksh'n], n
-ad·junc·tive, adj
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.




 There is nothing cooler than building something and then testing it to its extreme limit.






Like propoganda perhaps?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 18, 2007, 11:10 AM




Our society is becoming more violent over a period of time.  In my opinion one of the reasons for that is the excuse making that goes on.  You know the........oh that happened because she is home with the kids more than he is or he was upset over child support..........etc...etc...etc.


So how do you explain violent crime rates DECLINING since 1994

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viort.htm

Property crime rates declined
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/house2.htm

Rape has gone from 2.5/1000 to .5/1000 which is a decline of 500%
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/viortrdtab.htm

And violent crime against both sexes have dropped
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/vsx2.htm

Sorry but your claim doesn't prove out. Society isn't getting more violent. Maybe this shows men do listen and act.


If what you posted is accurate............wouldn't it point to people in general listening?

Or is it your contention that men alone were responsible for violent acts in days gone bye?

I based my claim on the types of crimes we now see.  When I was a child you did not read about people being convicted of torture at the frequency of conviction for that crime today.

Maybe you are right and we are as a society on the right track.  Considering some of the trash you see in the local news and national news; you could easily come to a different conclusion.

It could be more of a level of violence over a frequency thing.

Either way; neither frequency or level should be ignored, excused, or tolerated.


a lot of  that has to do with the globalization of media, you see more of the seedy side now, its always been ther


Maybe not so much the globalization of the media; but the 24/7 reporting.  You know they do run out of national news and slip in lots of what could easily be viewed as local news only.

Commercialization of the media maybe?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: CaptDMO on Jul 18, 2007, 11:12 AM

This is a fantastic study.  It takes on several myths promoted by gender feminists, namely:
1.  Domestic violence is perpetrated only by women
2.  If women perpetrate violence, it is only in self-defense against male violence
3.  If women initiate violence, it is only in self-defense against a pervasive patriarchal environment based on male power and privilege

Um...huh?

Holy smokes MRA, I can't believe you let her get you to do her homework for her!
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 18, 2007, 11:13 AM



Quote
Nope, guess you missed what my primary career is all about.  I only teach on an adjunct level.  If you do not understand that word...........dictionary.com is a wonderful thing.


Quote
ad·junct  

ad·junct [ájjungkt]
n (plural ad·juncts)
1.  something extra added on: something inessential added to something else  
2.  assistant: somebody who assists and is subordinate to somebody else  
3.  grammar inessential part of sentence: a part of a sentence that is not the subject or predicate  


adj
attached temporarily to a staff: assigned temporarily or as an auxiliary member to the staff of an institution
an adjunct professor of art history



[Early 16th century. From Latin adjunctus , the past participle of adjungere (see adjoin).]


-ad·junc·tion [ə júngksh'n], n
-ad·junc·tive, adj
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.




 There is nothing cooler than building something and then testing it to its extreme limit.






Like propoganda perhaps?


More of the.............I didn't know what to post so I'll post this tripe?

What propoganda are you talking about anyway?

Would you like to quote some or is that request going to be just shifted aside since you can't.

Talking point booklet.........put it down.  I'm not working off any talking points.  I'm merely discussing issues.  If you are unable to do that, don't worry; I'll understand.

But at least give you opinion instead injecting this stupid remarks such as the one I quoted here.

It's a waste of space.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Garak on Jul 18, 2007, 11:17 AM




Quote
Nope, guess you missed what my primary career is all about.  I only teach on an adjunct level.  If you do not understand that word...........dictionary.com is a wonderful thing.


Quote
ad·junct  

ad·junct [ájjungkt]
n (plural ad·juncts)
1.  something extra added on: something inessential added to something else  
2.  assistant: somebody who assists and is subordinate to somebody else  
3.  grammar inessential part of sentence: a part of a sentence that is not the subject or predicate  


adj
attached temporarily to a staff: assigned temporarily or as an auxiliary member to the staff of an institution
an adjunct professor of art history



[Early 16th century. From Latin adjunctus , the past participle of adjungere (see adjoin).]


-ad·junc·tion [ə júngksh'n], n
-ad·junc·tive, adj
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.




 There is nothing cooler than building something and then testing it to its extreme limit.






Like propoganda perhaps?


More of the.............I didn't know what to post so I'll post this tripe?

What propoganda are you talking about anyway?

Would you like to quote some or is that request going to be just shifted aside since you can't.

Talking point booklet.........put it down.  I'm not working off any talking points.  I'm merely discussing issues.  If you are unable to do that, don't worry; I'll understand.

But at least give you opinion instead injecting this stupid remarks such as the one I quoted here.

It's a waste of space.


These talking points you keep referring to, how do they differ from discussing issues? Is it because you disagree that they are talking points?

With that logic everything you say is nothing more than talking points. I am still waiting for you to answer my DIRECT question in another thread, quit stalling, spinning and running and answer it.

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 18, 2007, 11:17 AM
Quote
My advice to a man that is being abused is press charges and carry through with those charges.  But then my advice to a woman in that situation would be the same.


You are incessant in arguing obtusely, but never recognize that the reality of domestic violence law is biased against men as victims and in favor of women as victims.  Under zero tolerance and mandatory arrest police policies, if a woman is abusing her husband, and he reports it, police show up and arrest the man, because he is bigger.  Who do you suggest that men report their domestic violence to so they are not arrested by the biased, gender feminist trained police and so they are not prosecuted by the biased gender feminist trained prosecutors and so they are not convicted by the biased gender feminist trained judges and so they are not insulted by biased, obdurate gender feminist ideologues and their apologist ilk, etc., etc., etc.?

The biased domestic violence laws that empower violent women and deny services for battered men are responsible for many of the deaths of women, but hey it brings in more taxpayers dollars for the domestic violence industry and pays salaries for more women's studies graduates.  Violent women are empowered and emboldened by domestic violence laws and men are battered and made desperate by the same.  People who obdurately fail to see that and argue against that reality are despicably contributing to the carnage.  Shame on all those.  Admit how the domestic violence industry and domestic violence laws are corrupt, or just admit that you are a part of the problem - a big part of the problem.

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/DVAwarenessMonth/TheresNoExcuseForDVExcept1a.jpg)

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/DVAwarenessMonth/PA300027a.jpg)

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/DVAwarenessMonth/PA100002a.jpg)

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/MRA_06/DVAwarenessMonth/PA130033a.jpg)


Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: typhonblue on Jul 18, 2007, 11:20 AM
Wow, Johndias... that study was harrowing(although the PDF seems to be missing a page). Amazing that the abuse was so black and white and yet the women who were abusers still played the victim.

Erin Prizzy was right.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Mr. X on Jul 18, 2007, 11:21 AM

Or is it your contention that men alone were responsible for violent acts in days gone bye?


You're the one who wishes to look at the group who COMMITS violent crime NOT the group victimized by violent crime so I merely show stats showing that violent crime is declining. Again, when its a beneift then its men AND women. When its a detriment its JUST MEN.

But NOW that we have cleared up your attitude about the perpetrators of violent crime and you now admit BOTH men and women are culpable then we can get past this nonsense of dismissing the larger percentage of men who are victims because the perps are men.

The original article in this thread was about 30% women AND 40% MEN who are victimized during pregnancy. So why does the article ignore the larger 40% of men in favor of the smaller 30% women?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 18, 2007, 11:22 AM
Quote
All that for part time?  I've been part of the adjunct faculty for 17 years.  How's that for temporary and unneeded?  :laughing6:


I know tons and tons and tons of part time faculty (temps), who've been teaching for decades, who can't get a full time job, but oh, have it your way.  :laughing6:

Quote
She's a thoughtful and fair debater. 25%
:laughing6:
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 18, 2007, 11:25 AM





Quote
Nope, guess you missed what my primary career is all about.  I only teach on an adjunct level.  If you do not understand that word...........dictionary.com is a wonderful thing.


Quote
ad·junct  

ad·junct [ájjungkt]
n (plural ad·juncts)
1.  something extra added on: something inessential added to something else  
2.  assistant: somebody who assists and is subordinate to somebody else  
3.  grammar inessential part of sentence: a part of a sentence that is not the subject or predicate  


adj
attached temporarily to a staff: assigned temporarily or as an auxiliary member to the staff of an institution
an adjunct professor of art history



[Early 16th century. From Latin adjunctus , the past participle of adjungere (see adjoin).]


-ad·junc·tion [ə júngksh'n], n
-ad·junc·tive, adj
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.




 There is nothing cooler than building something and then testing it to its extreme limit.






Like propoganda perhaps?


More of the.............I didn't know what to post so I'll post this tripe?

What propoganda are you talking about anyway?

Would you like to quote some or is that request going to be just shifted aside since you can't.

Talking point booklet.........put it down.  I'm not working off any talking points.  I'm merely discussing issues.  If you are unable to do that, don't worry; I'll understand.

But at least give you opinion instead injecting this stupid remarks such as the one I quoted here.

It's a waste of space.


These talking points you keep referring to, how do they differ from discussing issues? Is it because you disagree that they are talking points?

With that logic everything you say is nothing more than talking points. I am still waiting for you to answer my DIRECT question in another thread, quit stalling, spinning and running and answer it.




I answered you little question.

Sorry if you failed to comprehend.  Try reading out loud.  Maybe that will help.

Oh and you never addressed my quesiton.

So kettle, meet pot.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Men's Rights Activist on Jul 18, 2007, 11:32 AM
Quote
I answered you little question.

Sorry if you failed to comprehend.  Try reading out loud.  Maybe that will help.

Oh and you never addressed my quesiton.

So kettle, meet pot.


ergo:  Nah, nah, na, nah, nah 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/savagewave/366370783/

What brilliant academic argumentation, but hey, when you are being erudite and testing to the limits, the politically correct, gender feminist, inner child must be allowed her say.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Mr. X on Jul 18, 2007, 11:32 AM
So who me? Are we all straightened out now? Did you fix us all? Did you set all us men straight and put us in our place so we have nothing to complain about? Now we men should get back to servicing help women? Did all your little quips and obtuse comments  prove we men are all unreasonable, have no case and only women need help in this world?

BTW you demand answers to questions.

Out of the original article that started this thread its specifically states 33% of mothers and 40% of fathers suffer some kind of abuse during pregnancy yet it then goes on to ONLY DISCUSS ISSUES WITH WOMEN. Do you think its fair to ignore the larger percentage hurt in this situation?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Garak on Jul 18, 2007, 11:33 AM






Quote
Nope, guess you missed what my primary career is all about.  I only teach on an adjunct level.  If you do not understand that word...........dictionary.com is a wonderful thing.


Quote
ad·junct  

ad·junct [ájjungkt]
n (plural ad·juncts)
1.  something extra added on: something inessential added to something else  
2.  assistant: somebody who assists and is subordinate to somebody else  
3.  grammar inessential part of sentence: a part of a sentence that is not the subject or predicate  


adj
attached temporarily to a staff: assigned temporarily or as an auxiliary member to the staff of an institution
an adjunct professor of art history



[Early 16th century. From Latin adjunctus , the past participle of adjungere (see adjoin).]


-ad·junc·tion [ə júngksh'n], n
-ad·junc·tive, adj
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.




 There is nothing cooler than building something and then testing it to its extreme limit.






Like propoganda perhaps?


More of the.............I didn't know what to post so I'll post this tripe?

What propoganda are you talking about anyway?

Would you like to quote some or is that request going to be just shifted aside since you can't.

Talking point booklet.........put it down.  I'm not working off any talking points.  I'm merely discussing issues.  If you are unable to do that, don't worry; I'll understand.

But at least give you opinion instead injecting this stupid remarks such as the one I quoted here.

It's a waste of space.


These talking points you keep referring to, how do they differ from discussing issues? Is it because you disagree that they are talking points?

With that logic everything you say is nothing more than talking points. I am still waiting for you to answer my DIRECT question in another thread, quit stalling, spinning and running and answer it.




I answered you little question.

Sorry if you failed to comprehend.  Try reading out loud.  Maybe that will help.

Oh and you never addressed my quesiton.

So kettle, meet pot.


You indirectly answered it but I don't accept your spin. Try again!
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: dr e on Jul 18, 2007, 11:38 AM
I am still waiting for you to answer my question:  How could a 2-1 ratio of women to men in the sample skew the results of the studies in question?  I suggest you answer my question.  You have made a claim and now you need to back it up.  This is a direct request for the admin.  If you don't reply you will get a warning.

I am waiting to hear this.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 18, 2007, 11:51 AM


Or is it your contention that men alone were responsible for violent acts in days gone bye?


You're the one who wishes to look at the group who COMMITS violent crime NOT the group victimized by violent crime so I merely show stats showing that violent crime is declining. Again, when its a beneift then its men AND women. When its a detriment its JUST MEN.

But NOW that we have cleared up your attitude about the perpetrators of violent crime and you now admit BOTH men and women are culpable then we can get past this nonsense of dismissing the larger percentage of men who are victims because the perps are men.

The original article in this thread was about 30% women AND 40% MEN who are victimized during pregnancy. So why does the article ignore the larger 40% of men in favor of the smaller 30% women?


It wasn't an article for beginners.  It is an abstract theory that was somewhat written but not backed up.

How much do you want to bet that it's a sale's pitch for a study they are trying to get funding for at the moment?

I haven't claimed that women are incapable of violence.  If you think that it is only because you are not reading what I post.

Women are far more likely to die as a result of domestic violence than men.  You all howled like a pack of dogs when I brought up the fact that domestic violence is the second leading cause of death as a result of injury in pregnant women.  But it is the truth.

Ignore the deaths and then rant and rave over the slap?  Is that the thesis?

Like I said early into this thread that is equal to going to the emergency room for a stubbed toe and then screeching because they take the gun shot victim into treatment first.

Neither issue is mutually exclusive.  But one is without a doubt free bleeding right now.

Ignore the free bleed though.......treat the stubbed toe instead.

Yep, that's the ticket!
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 18, 2007, 11:54 AM
I dont get where you surmise that we are saying anything of the sort who me?,  this analogy is inaccurate  because there is already a huge goverment and private sector working on issues concerning women as victims of violence, yet no corresponding  spending for men, ergo, most  men's issues boards/organization are not going to worry too much about  women as victims of violence because they are trying to focus on men
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 18, 2007, 11:54 AM

I am still waiting for you to answer my question:  How could a 2-1 ratio of women to men in the sample skew the results of the studies in question?  I suggest you answer my question.  You have made a claim and now you need to back it up.  This is a direct request for the admin.  If you don't reply you will get a warning.

I am waiting to hear this.


Why don't you explain why it wouldn't since you like to pretend to have all the answers?

If it didn't skew the results why would so much effort be put into setting the "study" up in such a way?

If you need to give me a warning because you feel I'm breaking a rule of the forum; go ahead.

But you may want to examine this thread for abusive posts.  I think Gonzo may have stepped over a line or 2 or 3.  There is a rule against that you know.

Edit to add link:

http://standyourground.com/forums/index.php?topic=13627.msg150159#msg150159

Is there a rule about not answering to a question to your approval?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 18, 2007, 11:56 AM

I would tend to agree that there were not enough respondents to draw a strong conclusion in any direction.


This bibliography examines 196 scholarly investigations: 153 empirical studies and 43 reviews and/or analyses, which demonstrate that women are as physically aggressive, or more aggressive, than men in their relationships with their spouses or male partners.  The aggregate sample size in the reviewed studies exceeds 177,100.

:dontknow:

Quote
I am perplexed by the 2 to 1 and 3 to 1 ratios used in the posted studies.  Based on the consistency of use there is a reason for it.  Like I said, when you set out to prove a specific theory you can cherry pick the respondents and almost guarantee results.



    Capaldi, D. M. & Crosby, L. (1997).  Observed and reported psychological and physical aggression in young, at-risk couples.  Social Development, 6, 184-206.  (A sample of 118 young men and their dating partners were surveyed regarding their own physical aggression as well as that of their partners.  Findings reveal that 31% of men and 36% of women engaged "in an act of physical aggression against their current partner.")


Even

    Feather, N. T. (1996).  Domestic violence, gender and perceptions of justice.  Sex Roles, 35, 507-519.  (Subjects <109 men, 111 women> from Adelaide, South Australia, were presented a hypothetical scenario in which either a husband or wife perpetrated domestic violence.  Participants were significantly more negative in their evaluation of the husband than the wife, were more sympathetic to the wife and believed that the husband deserved a harsher penalty for his behavior.)

Damn near even.

    Grandin, E. & Lupri, E. (1997).  Intimate violence in Canada and the United States: A cross-national comparison.  Journal of Family Violence, 12 (4), 417-443.  (Authors examine data from the 1985 U.S. National Family Violence Resurvey and the 1986 Canadian National Family Life Survey.  Report that "although the United States exhibits significantly higher rates of societal violence crime than Canada, Canadian women and men were more likely than their American counterparts to use severe and minor intimate violence."  This finding is counter to the "culture of violence theory."  Moreover, in both cultures the rates of violence of wives to husbands were higher than husbands to wives.  Specifically, the overall violence index for men in America was 10.6 and in Canada it was 18.3; while the overall violence index for women in America was 12.2 and in Canada it was 25.3.)

And from your beloved government studies, no less.   :laughing6:

Wow.

And that's just "scroll and randomly pick."

I'm just not finding those "2 to 1 and 3 to 1 ratios" in "each and every one" of those studies you claimed to have thoroughly looked at.  Perhaps I'm just actually reading it, instead of talking out my twat?

Sucks for you to be caught LYING again, eh?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 18, 2007, 11:57 AM

I dont get where you surmise that we are saying anything of the sort who me?,  this analogy is inaccurate  because there is already a huge goverment and private sector working on issues concerning women as victims of violence, yet no corresponding  spending for men, ergo, most  men's issues boards/organization are not going to worry too much about  women as victims of violence because they are trying to focus on men


The logical approach is to bring up the issue again.  Resorting to violence to fight violence?  How stupid is that?

Threatening to kill to bring an issue forward?

Sounds familiar doesn't it?  Seems I remember there are groups that call it jihad.

If that's what you want to align yourself with don't expect much result.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 18, 2007, 11:59 AM
are you deliberatly  doing that or just misinterpreting me.........I meant that among men's groups,  the priority isnt to adrress issues about women as victims of violence , but on adressing the needs of male victimes, thats all
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 18, 2007, 12:05 PM
Quote
Women are far more likely to die as a result of domestic violence than men.  You all howled like a pack of dogs when I brought up the fact that domestic violence is the second leading cause of death as a result of injury in pregnant women.  But it is the truth.


Who cares?

You want to have someone look into this and "help?"

Already being done.

We're not here to reinvent the wheel.  Let feminist groups help women.

We're not going to do their work for us, and thus free up time and funds to oppose us.

Let them burn their resources.

Quote
Ignore the deaths and then rant and rave over the slap?  Is that the thesis?


Who cares?

We're MEN's advocates. We also don't devote resources to saving the Lesser Botswanan Clubfish or something like that.  But then again, we're not Lesser Botswanan Clubfish advocates, either.

Quote
Like I said early into this thread that is equal to going to the emergency room for a stubbed toe and then screeching because they take the gun shot victim into treatment first.

Neither issue is mutually exclusive.  But one is without a doubt free bleeding right now.

Ignore the free bleed though.......treat the stubbed toe instead.

Yep, that's the ticket!


Who cares?

Heal yourself.  To a podiatrist, the foot is the concern.

We're here to be podiatrists, not ER trauma surgeons.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 18, 2007, 12:07 PM

are you deliberatly  doing that or just misinterpreting me.........I meant that among men's groups,  the priority isnt to adrress issues about women as victims of violence , but on adressing the needs of male victimes, thats all


I misrepresented nothing.

I just gave you an honest assessment of your post.  It isn't the first I've read of your posts that smacked of threats of violence as a means to an end.

I just pointed out that there are other groups that share that mindset.

The means do not justify the end.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 18, 2007, 12:09 PM
wrong thread  who me?, on this thread we are talking about stats, and  explaining why  we dont see dead pregnant women as wotrthy of discussion  ON A MENS ISSUES B OARD
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 18, 2007, 12:14 PM


I am still waiting for you to answer my question:  How could a 2-1 ratio of women to men in the sample skew the results of the studies in question?  I suggest you answer my question.  You have made a claim and now you need to back it up.  This is a direct request for the admin.  If you don't reply you will get a warning.

I am waiting to hear this.


Why don't you explain why it wouldn't since you like to pretend to have all the answers?

If it didn't skew the results why would so much effort be put into setting the "study" up in such a way?

If you need to give me a warning because you feel I'm breaking a rule of the forum; go ahead.

But you may want to examine this thread for abusive posts.  I think Gonzo may have stepped over a line or 2 or 3.  There is a rule against that you know.

Edit to add link:

http://standyourground.com/forums/index.php?topic=13627.msg150159#msg150159

Is there a rule about not answering to a question to your approval?


Why don't you address it to me, instead of running to a man to save you, you strong, independent woman, you?

Add "Crybaby" to Troll, liar, feminist, and hypocrite.

And as far as libel goes - truth is the ultimate defense, eh wot?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 18, 2007, 12:16 PM


I dont get where you surmise that we are saying anything of the sort who me?,  this analogy is inaccurate  because there is already a huge goverment and private sector working on issues concerning women as victims of violence, yet no corresponding  spending for men, ergo, most  men's issues boards/organization are not going to worry too much about  women as victims of violence because they are trying to focus on men


The logical approach is to bring up the issue again.  Resorting to violence to fight violence?  How stupid is that?

Threatening to kill to bring an issue forward?

Sounds familiar doesn't it?  Seems I remember there are groups that call it jihad.

If that's what you want to align yourself with don't expect much result.


We're getting results - but that is your real problem, isn't it?

Watching that female privilege go bye-bye....

:sad2:
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 18, 2007, 12:27 PM
and also who me, I said misinterpreted, not misrepresented...........................I think  you were thrown off by our discussion on the child support thread
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Garak on Jul 18, 2007, 12:33 PM

and also who me, I said misinterpreted, not misrepresented...........................I think  you were thrown off by our discussion on the child support thread


..or thrown off by the big word.  :toothy9:
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 18, 2007, 12:48 PM

and also who me, I said misinterpreted, not misrepresented...........................I think  you were thrown off by our discussion on the child support thread


Yeah, whatever.  Misinterpreted, misrepresented.  Either way it isn't the first post of yours that I've read where you were  screaming that violence is the way to handle it.

Storm Front..........yep, I read that post you did with the use of the "n" word.  Unneeded it was, uncalled for............you bet.   Bigoted, you got it.

Then there was the DEA reference.  Comparing blowing up the DEA wasn't it?  Comparing that to the man murdering his wife?  Trying to make it sound as if he was making a political stand?  Oh yeah, something to cheer about.

Like I said, the mindset is the same used to validate the jihad garbage.  But if that's the can you choose to live in; enjoy the company.  I'm sure ossama will love your support.

If you don't mean it that way; don't say it that way.  But since you did, don't get upset when someone calls you on it.

And uh, I have not been thrown by anything you post.  Your posts are waaaaaaaaay too simple to throw anyone. :toothy9:
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 18, 2007, 12:52 PM


and also who me, I said misinterpreted, not misrepresented...........................I think  you were thrown off by our discussion on the child support thread


Yeah, whatever.  Misinterpreted, misrepresented.  Either way it isn't the first post of yours that I've read where you were  screaming that violence is the way to handle it.

Storm Front..........yep, I read that post you did with the use of the "n" word.  Unneeded it was, uncalled for............you bet.   Bigoted, you got it.

Then there was the DEA reference.  Comparing blowing up the DEA wasn't it?  Comparing that to the man murdering his wife?  Trying to make it sound as if he was making a political stand?  Oh yeah, something to cheer about.

Like I said, the mindset is the same used to validate the jihad garbage.  But if that's the can you choose to live in; enjoy the company.  I'm sure ossama will love your support.

If you don't mean it that way; don't say it that way.  But since you did, don't get upset when someone calls you on it.

And uh, I have not been thrown by anything you post.  Your posts are waaaaaaaaay too simple to throw anyone. :toothy9:


Who Me?, serveral things you  said in previous post are outright false

1. I have NEVER used the "n word" on this forum, that was another poster
2. I NEVER said anything about blowing the DEA up.........................what you are talking about  was when I compared  twhat the child support dude  did to   me going out in the woods and doing a nazi cook and turning myself in at the reigeonal DEA office

you really owe me an apology for indicating I a) used racial insults and B)advocating the blowing up of a building
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: CaptDMO on Jul 18, 2007, 12:57 PM


I am still waiting for you to answer my question:  How could a 2-1 ratio of women to men in the sample skew the results of the studies in question?  I suggest you answer my question.  You have made a claim and now you need to back it up.  This is a direct request for the admin.  If you don't reply you will get a warning.

I am waiting to hear this.


Why don't you explain why it wouldn't since you like to pretend to have all the answers?

If it didn't skew the results why would so much effort be put into setting the "study" up in such a way?

If you need to give me a warning because you feel I'm breaking a rule of the forum; go ahead.

But you may want to examine this thread for abusive posts.  I think Gonzo may have stepped over a line or 2 or 3.  There is a rule against that you know.

Edit to add link:

http://standyourground.com/forums/index.php?topic=13627.msg150159#msg150159

Is there a rule about not answering to a question to your approval?
I guess that's a still no answer

Leeet's seeee.....
Quote

The logical approach is to bring up the issue again.  Resorting to violence to fight violence?  How stupid is that?
The ploy seems to work well for folks
that call on the men with guns and sticks and violently applied restraints.
Worked pretty good for the founders of the USA, as well as the Allies of WW1 and II.
As we speak it serves those that are intervening on behalf of girls, from the raveges of "honor" killings, rape as punishment, and stoning.

Quote
Threatening to kill to bring an issue forward?
Yep, Some state governments do it all the time, to deter men from raping and killing women. (but not other men)
Quote

Sounds familiar doesn't it?  Seems I remember there are groups that call it jihad.

Actually, a jihad is a religious vow to kill, not a threat. It comes from folks in a land where vows made under the shadow of their religion are kept. No "mulligans", no "But I didn't MEAN it that way!"
Sophist (look it up) and disingenuous analogy.

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 18, 2007, 12:58 PM



and also who me, I said misinterpreted, not misrepresented...........................I think  you were thrown off by our discussion on the child support thread


Yeah, whatever.  Misinterpreted, misrepresented.  Either way it isn't the first post of yours that I've read where you were  screaming that violence is the way to handle it.

Storm Front..........yep, I read that post you did with the use of the "n" word.  Unneeded it was, uncalled for............you bet.   Bigoted, you got it.

Then there was the DEA reference.  Comparing blowing up the DEA wasn't it?  Comparing that to the man murdering his wife?  Trying to make it sound as if he was making a political stand?  Oh yeah, something to cheer about.

Like I said, the mindset is the same used to validate the jihad garbage.  But if that's the can you choose to live in; enjoy the company.  I'm sure ossama will love your support.

If you don't mean it that way; don't say it that way.  But since you did, don't get upset when someone calls you on it.

And uh, I have not been thrown by anything you post.  Your posts are waaaaaaaaay too simple to throw anyone. :toothy9:


Who Me?, serveral things you  said in previous post are outright false

1. I have NEVER used the "n word" on this forum, that was another poster
2. I NEVER said anything about blowing the DEA up.........................what you are talking about  was when I compared  twhat the child support dude  did to   me going out in the woods and doing a nazi cook and turning myself in at the reigeonal DEA office

you really owe me an apology for indicating I a) used racial insults and B)advocating the blowing up of a building


If you did not use the "n" word; I apologize for the accusation.  I may have you confused with another poster.

As to the DEA remark; I took it as it was written.  If it was not your intent you need to choose your words more carefully.  Because it did come off sounding as if you were advocating violence as an answer.

Take the time to read your posts before hitting the post button.  Make sure it says exactly what you mean.  If you do not mean to say that violent acts are the answer; don't post things that insinuate such.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 18, 2007, 12:58 PM
who me?, I will repeat again
a) I never used a ricail slur on this forum, EVER
b) I did not  mention blowing up a DEA building in any way


I repeat.............the slur in question was NEVER AT ANY POINT  USED BY ME ON THIS FORUM
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 18, 2007, 01:00 PM




and also who me, I said misinterpreted, not misrepresented...........................I think  you were thrown off by our discussion on the child support thread


Yeah, whatever.  Misinterpreted, misrepresented.  Either way it isn't the first post of yours that I've read where you were  screaming that violence is the way to handle it.

Storm Front..........yep, I read that post you did with the use of the "n" word.  Unneeded it was, uncalled for............you bet.   Bigoted, you got it.

Then there was the DEA reference.  Comparing blowing up the DEA wasn't it?  Comparing that to the man murdering his wife?  Trying to make it sound as if he was making a political stand?  Oh yeah, something to cheer about.

Like I said, the mindset is the same used to validate the jihad garbage.  But if that's the can you choose to live in; enjoy the company.  I'm sure ossama will love your support.

If you don't mean it that way; don't say it that way.  But since you did, don't get upset when someone calls you on it.

And uh, I have not been thrown by anything you post.  Your posts are waaaaaaaaay too simple to throw anyone. :toothy9:


Who Me?, serveral things you  said in previous post are outright false

1. I have NEVER used the "n word" on this forum, that was another poster
2. I NEVER said anything about blowing the DEA up.........................what you are talking about  was when I compared  twhat the child support dude  did to   me going out in the woods and doing a nazi cook and turning myself in at the reigeonal DEA office

you really owe me an apology for indicating I a) used racial insults and B)advocating the blowing up of a building


If you did not use the "n" word; I apologize for the accusation.  I may have you confused with another poster.

As to the DEA remark; I took it as it was written.  If it was not your intent you need to choose your words more carefully.  Because it did come off sounding as if you were advocating violence as an answer.

Take the time to read your posts before hitting the post button.  Make sure it says exactly what you mean.  If you do not mean to say that violent acts are the answer; don't post things that insinuate such.


YOU DO HAVE ME CONFUSED WITH ANOTHER POSTER
I DID NOT USE THAT TERM AND IF YOU  USE THE SEARCH ENGINGE INSTEAD OF TALKING OUT OF YOUR FUCKING ASS YOU WILL FIND OUT I DIDNT
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 18, 2007, 01:00 PM



I am still waiting for you to answer my question:  How could a 2-1 ratio of women to men in the sample skew the results of the studies in question?  I suggest you answer my question.  You have made a claim and now you need to back it up.  This is a direct request for the admin.  If you don't reply you will get a warning.

I am waiting to hear this.


Why don't you explain why it wouldn't since you like to pretend to have all the answers?

If it didn't skew the results why would so much effort be put into setting the "study" up in such a way?

If you need to give me a warning because you feel I'm breaking a rule of the forum; go ahead.

But you may want to examine this thread for abusive posts.  I think Gonzo may have stepped over a line or 2 or 3.  There is a rule against that you know.

Edit to add link:

http://standyourground.com/forums/index.php?topic=13627.msg150159#msg150159

Is there a rule about not answering to a question to your approval?
I guess that's a still no answer

Leeet's seeee.....
Quote

The logical approach is to bring up the issue again.  Resorting to violence to fight violence?  How stupid is that?
The ploy seems to work well for folks
that call on the men with guns and sticks and violently applied restraints.
Worked pretty good for the founders of the USA, as well as the Allies of WW1 and II.
As we speak it serves those that are intervening on behalf of girls, from the raveges of "honor" killings, rape as punishment, and stoning.

Quote
Threatening to kill to bring an issue forward?
Yep, Some state governments do it all the time, to deter men from raping and killing women. (but not other men)
Quote

Sounds familiar doesn't it?  Seems I remember there are groups that call it jihad.

Actually, a jihad is a religious vow to kill, not a threat. Sophist (look it up) and disingenuous analogy.

If that's what you want to align yourself with don't expect much result.

[/quote]

I know exactly what the word means.  But thanks for you input anyway.

The means do not justify the end.  Proposing violence is not the way to approach anything if you expect to be taken seriously.

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 18, 2007, 01:02 PM
I want to know why instead of finding out that  I WASNT THE ONE WHO USED THE SLUR and then giving me an unqualified  apology, you chose to  say "if you didnt say it, I apologize"
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 18, 2007, 01:05 PM

who me?, I will repeat again
a) I never used a ricail slur on this forum, EVER
b) I did not  mention blowing up a DEA building in any way


I repeat.............the slur in question was NEVER AT ANY POINT  USED BY ME ON THIS FORUM


I apologized for the mistake on my part.  What part of that do you not understand?

The DEA statement is up for interpretation.  Don't post things like that even in jest.  It isn't cute, not funny, and makes no points at all.

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 18, 2007, 01:07 PM
apology accepted

what are you talking about about the DEA thing............................where did I mentioned blowing it up or setting it on fire; I dont understand where you got that?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 18, 2007, 01:17 PM


who me?, I will repeat again
a) I never used a ricail slur on this forum, EVER
b) I did not  mention blowing up a DEA building in any way


I repeat.............the slur in question was NEVER AT ANY POINT  USED BY ME ON THIS FORUM


I apologized for the mistake on my part.  What part of that do you not understand?

The DEA statement is up for interpretation.  Don't post things like that even in jest.  It isn't cute, not funny, and makes no points at all.




I qouted the post you are referring to in the  child support murder thread............read it again and realize that you interpreted it to mean violence because YOU WANTED TO
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 18, 2007, 01:20 PM


who me?, I will repeat again
a) I never used a ricail slur on this forum, EVER
b) I did not  mention blowing up a DEA building in any way


I repeat.............the slur in question was NEVER AT ANY POINT  USED BY ME ON THIS FORUM


I apologized for the mistake on my part.  What part of that do you not understand?

The DEA statement is up for interpretation.  Don't post things like that even in jest.  It isn't cute, not funny, and makes no points at all.




actually you really fell short of an apology because you said IF I didnt say it  and you MIGHT have me confused.......................I DIDNT AND YOU DID HAVE ME CONFUSED............an unqualified apology with no if and may would be very classy of you ma'am.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: CaptDMO on Jul 18, 2007, 01:23 PM
Quote from: whome


The DEA statement is up for interpretation.
Oh, so SOMEBODY ramped it up withtheir interpretation?
Quote
Don't post things like that even in jest.  It isn't cute, not funny, and makes no points at all.
Ah.. if only  interpretations of assault between
intimate partners, as well as interpretations of (ultimately proven as falsely vindictive) rape claims were treated with such reverence!

Otherwise, thanks for your continued tips on what, and what NOT, others should post.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 18, 2007, 01:26 PM
 I have no  problem discussing , disagreeing, or even agreeing with you Ms Who Me?, but its hard to be civil when I was falsely accused of using a very offensive word, and  only recieved a  qualified, "im sorry if I'm worong" type of apology, when its pretty evenly ascertainable that you WERE mistaken
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 18, 2007, 01:35 PM

I have no  problem discussing , disagreeing, or even agreeing with you Ms Who Me?, but its hard to be civil when I was falsely accused of using a very offensive word, and  only recieved a  qualified, "im sorry if I'm worong" type of apology, when its pretty evenly ascertainable that you WERE mistaken


And I apologized for the error.  You seem to have a real problem accepting the apology.

If you do not want to accept it............fine, but stop demanding what you refuse to accept.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: dr e on Jul 18, 2007, 01:46 PM
You hae a choice, answer the question or get a warning.  I won't wait much longer.

What we see from this poster is the classic divert and misdirect.  She/he makes an accusation about content or some person and then never backs it up but finds ways to create chaos to divert attention away from the original question.  It would be more productive to argue over issues but the fems tend to avoid that if at all possible and try to break things down into personal attacks like we see made on Tony.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: who me? on Jul 18, 2007, 01:51 PM

You hae a choice, answer the question or get a warning.  I won't wait much longer.

What we see from this poster is the classic divert and misdirect.  She/he makes an accusation about content or some person and then never backs it up but finds ways to create chaos to divert attention away from the original question.  It would be more productive to argue over issues but the fems tend to avoid that if at all possible and try to break things down into personal attacks like we see made on Tony.


I've answered this a couple of time during the course of this thread.  Maybe you prefer not to read back to see?  I'm not sure what the problem is.

But if you want to issue a warning because you do not feel I answered appropriately; that's your call I guess. 

Do you write the rules as you go or do the rules change with the poster?

http://standyourground.com/forums/index.php?topic=13627.msg150159#msg150159

Just in case you overlooked this before.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: . on Jul 18, 2007, 02:06 PM
I think she forgot the question.  ("Gonzo's a meanie too...")  The question was how you can support your insinuation that smaller samples of males in a study, relative to females, means the study is invalid or cooked.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: dr e on Jul 18, 2007, 02:14 PM

I think she forgot the question.  ("Gonzo's a meanie too...")  The question was how you can support your insinuation that smaller samples of males in a study, relative to females, means the study is invalid or cooked.


Exactly John.

Makes a claim about how the studies are flawed due to the sample being 2-1 female to male and then never explains why that would make a difference but goes on and on about new attacks and other obfuscating crap.  We can see clearly the way feminists work in this posters lack of responsibility for her statements and her avoiding taking responsibility.  Reminds me of my children when they were little.  Well, not really, my children cared about all people, not just some.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Cordell Walker on Jul 18, 2007, 02:36 PM


I have no  problem discussing , disagreeing, or even agreeing with you Ms Who Me?, but its hard to be civil when I was falsely accused of using a very offensive word, and  only recieved a  qualified, "im sorry if I'm worong" type of apology, when its pretty evenly ascertainable that you WERE mistaken


And I apologized for the error.  You seem to have a real problem accepting the apology.

If you do not want to accept it............fine, but stop demanding what you refuse to accept.


I have no problem accepting your apology..........................I just wish that it didnt have a "qulaifier"(ie (I may have had the wrong poster) but thats cool.
apology accepted.
thats the end of it
as far as I am c oncerned who me?, we got a fresh start......good enough for you?
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: . on Jul 18, 2007, 02:37 PM
By the way, the DV expert John Hamel (http://www.johnhamel.net/) (who I told (http://standyourground.com/forums/index.php?topic=13627.msg150955#msg150955) you all I would ask about the subject of smaller quantities of males in study samples) wrote back.  Here is the exchange:

(From me to John Hamel):

Quote
Hi, John.  I've got a question for you.

In an internet discussion forum, there is a discussion going on about domestic violence and its impact on male victims.  Some of the men are bringing up the fact that studies indicate that men and women commit abuse against each other at roughly equal rates.  The Fiebert bibliography has been cited.  But one of the feminist-oriented participants in the discussion pointed out that in many of the studies listed in Fiebert's bibliography, the sample of women dwarfed the sample of men.  She has implied that this means the results are skewed in order to get a desired result.

Why is there this pattern of lower male samples in such studies?  Can valid conclusions be drawn when you're measuring a gender-based phenomenon but not including equal numbers of men and women in the sample?  How is this controlled for?

John Dias



(John Hamel's reply):

Quote

John:

The feminist-oriented participant is giving you a line of bs.  Almost without exception, all of the so-called "conflict" surveys, which frame questions about partner violence in terms of relational conflict rather than a crime, find equal rates of violence across the genders, and often more by women.  These studies sometimes give total numbers, but as far as I know, typically give percentages of respondents, and sometimes extrapolate to the general population.  So it's completely irrelevant what the sample size of women is compared to men; what matters is the percentage of abused men and women. This is usually done as numbers per hundred or numbers per thousand.  As long as there is a large enough sample of both men and women, you can find the relative proportions of each.

Fiebert's annotated bibliography has been much-maligned by some radical feminists, primarily because of its emphasis on rates.  I don't know if I ever sent you my own annotated bibliography, but if I haven't here it is.  It also looks at context.

John
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: TheManOnTheStreet on Jul 18, 2007, 02:42 PM
Since you are so hell bent on pointing out someone using the "N" word here (I was the offending person), maybe you should also point out that the individual apologised for said usage.  Or does that part not enter into your little "evil men scheme"?


Doc E, Fair enough.

DLove.  Consider this an official apology.  While not an excuse, I am a victim of PUI (posting under the influence). 

Secondly, although I still feel what I feel about PC'ness in word usage, I do in fact understand your position and distaste for my post, and once again offer a honest, heartfelt apology for my poor choice of wording. 

PS.  I was in a situation almost identical to that one once.  And I did brandish my Kimber.  And the individual IMMEDIATE fell to the floor, placed his hands over his head and started began begging me not to shoot him.  Maybe he has read some of my posts?  <injecting humor to hopefully smooth over my ignorance>.

One again, I was wrong... and I apologise.

TMOTS


http://standyourground.com/forums/index.php?topic=13629.30 (http://standyourground.com/forums/index.php?topic=13629.30)

TMOTS
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: . on Jul 18, 2007, 02:57 PM
"Who Me," I have an audio file for you...  (See attached)    :cya:
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: dr e on Jul 18, 2007, 03:03 PM
Quote

The feminist-oriented participant is giving you a line of bs.


Nice summary.  Short, sweet, and to the point.

So now we get to see what the next deflection will be. 

gg no re
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 18, 2007, 03:49 PM


I know exactly what the word means.  But thanks for you input anyway.

The means do not justify the end.  Proposing violence is not the way to approach anything if you expect to be taken seriously.


One girl told him bluntly: "My mother says violence never solves anything."

"So?" Mr. Dubois looked at her bleakly. "I'm sure the city fathers of Carthage would be glad to know that. Why doesn't your mother tell them so? Or why don't you?"

They had tangled before - since you couldn't flunk the course, it wasn't necessary to keep Mr. Dubois buttered up. She said shrilly, "You're making fun of me! Everybody knows that Carthage was destroyed!"

"You seem to be unaware of it," he said grimly. "Since you do know it, wouldn't you say that violence had settled their destinies rather thoroughly? However, I was not making fun of you personally; I was heaping scorn on an inexcusably silly idea - a practice I shall always follow. Anybody who clings to the historically untrue - and thoroughly immoral - doctrine that 'violence never solves anything' I would advise to conjure up the ghosts of Napoleon Bonaparte and the Duke of Wellington and let them debate it. The ghost of Hitler could referee, and the jury might well be the Dodo, the Great Auk, and the Passenger Pigeon. Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and their freedom."


Robert A. Heinlein
Starship Troopers
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: The Gonzman on Jul 18, 2007, 03:53 PM


I think she forgot the question.  ("Gonzo's a meanie too...")  The question was how you can support your insinuation that smaller samples of males in a study, relative to females, means the study is invalid or cooked.


Exactly John.

Makes a claim about how the studies are flawed due to the sample being 2-1 female to male and then never explains why that would make a difference but goes on and on about new attacks and other obfuscating crap.  We can see clearly the way feminists work in this posters lack of responsibility for her statements and her avoiding taking responsibility.  Reminds me of my children when they were little.  Well, not really, my children cared about all people, not just some.


It's more than that, Doc.

She claimed she read through the Bibliography, and then claims that each and every one of the studies cited has such a skew.

And it plain isn't so.

That's not just a misrepresentation, or deflection.

It's a lie.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: dr e on Jul 18, 2007, 04:21 PM
Okay Gonz.  I stand corrected.   :icon_cyclops_ani:

Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Mr. X on Jul 18, 2007, 04:39 PM
Quote
My mother says violence never solves anything.


I always like to reply to that with:

"And capitualtion has never really solved anything."
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: typhonblue on Jul 18, 2007, 05:13 PM
Er... I'm afraid this is a bit embarassing-by-proxy.

Who Me... the 'abstract' they're refering to in the link refers to a SUMMARY of the article, not that its based on an abstract theory.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Chris Key on Jul 19, 2007, 12:15 AM


Placing one group ahead of another is a form of bigotry.  By ignoring one group you're more or less rendering demoting them to a "second-class" status.  The discrimination leads to caos between the two demographics, as the discriminated group will end up fighting back against the people who treated them like second-class citizens.  You're seeing this in action on this board.

Men as a group have been treated as second-class citizens by the law for a long time.  The problem dates back to 19th Century English law.  Women received a large amount of criminal law impunity and civil law privilege over men under 19th Century English Law.  The problem was worsened during the 20th Century when the second-wave feminists came along and inspired the legislators into enforcing more anti-male legal practices.

The result is men are losing empathy and respect for women.  They're starting to hate women and see them as the 'enemy'.  There is some legitimacy behind the way men are acting, as they are subjugated by a force (a coalition between the Government and women) that is far stronger than them.

Blame should be placed on the shoulders of the chivalrous legislators and women who have exploited men.  They've created a 'battle of the sexes' that has led to normal men feeling that the only alternative is to doubt and hate anything that is female.

You'll find that men will oppose 'violence against women' when the law system and women oppose 'violence against men'.  The problem is the media, the Government and society in general treats violence against men as a joke.  You cannot expect men to care about violence agaisnt women when society portrays violence against men as 'okay'.  It is wrong for men to not care about violence against women, but you cannot blame men for thinking this way when they live in a society that treats violence against men as a joke.  It's a example of why the chivalrous men and feminists are an enemy of women, as they're more or less turning normal men against women.


The domestic violence laws in the majority of states are gender nuetral as they should be.  The enforcement is where the problem exist in those states.

That has to be changed by getting the word.  You are not going to find many women that believe other women have the right to abuse their spouse or b/f just as the majority of men do not feel a man has the right to abuse his soupse or g/f. 

That is the stiuation that should be addressed...the enforcement of those laws that are on the book in the states who's laws are gender nuetral.

There also needs to be a concerted effort to see that the laws are gender nuetral in all states.

That will not be achieved by ignoring the problems that exist in regard to domestic violence.  It will not be achieved by ignoring the problems we have in our society in regard to violent attacks in general.

Meanwhile, back at the farm 2 more pregnant women have come up missing just this past week.  They are most likely dead. 

How many husbands of pregnant women have come up missing this week and are most likely dead on the other hand?

You can't cheer one and morn the other and expect anyone that can think and reason to back you on the deal.

If it's equality you want; go for it.  You will find much support.  But if you are looking to turn the clock back you will get absolutely nowhere.

Also I think you missed something in my posts.  I was comparing the figures between death caused by male on male attacks compared to death caused by female on male attacks.  There is a huge cavern between those numbers.  For the sake of reason and honesty they should not be ignored.

Houston we have problems here.  The problem is violence.  It should not be tolerated, ignored, or cheered.  But it looks like some just can't help themselves.......and then they wonder why things are the way they are?  Those people are part of the problem.


Although I agree with some of your points, I disagree with the "tangential points" and rhetorical language you have used to derail the topic.  For example, you claimed that "few" women would support female perpetrated violence against men, and that we'll be supported if we want 'equality'.  How do you know?  Do you have any proof to confirm this?  If not, then your statements are assertions -- not facts.

I'm sure a lot of men and women on here can testify that a lot of chivalrous men and feminists are against the implemention of 'complete equality' between the sexes.  You don't see many women fighting for the right to be drafted into the military, nor do you see them fighting for employment within the most hazardous industries that society has to offer.  How many women are fighting to be breadwinners and the givers of child support/spousal support?

If television content is anything to go by, then it's safe to say that there's a shortage of female actors putting themselves through embarrassing and sexist ordeals.  Male actors are told to put themselves in sexist and embarrassing situations on a constant basis.  Can you name the amount of movies that show a woman being kicked in the vulva?  Now compare that to the amount of movies that show a man being kicked in the testes.  Why do you think there's such a huge disparity between the showing of vulva kicking and testis kicking?  Because violence against men is accepted by society, while violence against women is abhorred.

You cannot sit there and say that vulva kicking isn't shown because it "doesn't hurt", because if you were to say that, then you would be telling a lie.  Based on the real life accounts (testimonies and video footage of female athletes being hit in the groin) and scientific information I have come across, I have obtained enough information to come to the conclusion that a blow to the vulva is extremely painful and debilitating.  Therefore, if testis kicking is "glorified" because it's painful and debilitating, then vulva kicking should be glorified; or, both acts should be shunned for the fact they're dangerous and vulgar. Personally, I believe both acts should be shunned, as it's downright sick for the media to portray the dangerous, embarrassing and painful act of groin kicking as comedic.

Why did I bring up the "groin kicking on TV" argument?  Because you said that most women do not believe that they have a right abouse their boyfriends and spouses.  If that held true, then you would see women complaining about all the testis kicking scenes that are shown in the movies and on television.  So far I am yet to see a great of women complain about it.  All I have seen is a complaint from women about a commercial that showed two women throwing pies at each other while they wore a bikini.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Chris Key on Jul 19, 2007, 12:51 AM
It's hard to measure the commonality of female perpetrated violence against men as most men are conditioned into believing that they should accept the violence and never report it to the authorities.  Another reason that male victims of DV are scared of reporting their abuse to the authorities is because the biased legal system is known to take a woman's accusation more seriously than a man's accusation.  Therefore, you cannot rely on law enforcement statistics such as arrest and conviction rates as a 'measurement' of the problem.

A survey on domestic violence is nothing more but a form of anecdotal evidence, as the methodology that it uses does not include the investigation and validation of each claim that is made by its respondents.

Women are encouraged to portray themselves as "victims", as women who are battered by men are placed on a pedestal by our society.  A plethora of Government-funded services are available for "battered women" and women who say don't want to stay at home because they feel scared.  Dogs have shelters that are funded and speciallly built for them by the Council and/or Government.  An equivalent does not exist for men.
Title: Re: Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy
Post by: Chris Key on Jul 19, 2007, 01:16 AM


Hard data about women being as violent?  Here's a start:

http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

Here's a taste of what you will find there:
Quote

Archer, J. (2000).  Sex differences in aggression between heterosexual partners: A meta-analytic review.  Psychological Bulletin, 126, 651-680. (Meta-analyses of sex differences in physical aggression indicate that women were more likely than men to "use one or more acts of physical aggression and to use such acts more frequently."  In terms of injuries, women were somewhat more likely to be injured, and analyses reveal that  62% of those injured were women.)


World famous researcher, renowned journal, important message. 


And exceptionally nice cherry picking.  You didn't think I would read did you?

From your link:

Quote
Aizenman, M., & Kelley, G. (1988).  The incidence of violence and acquaintance rape in dating relationships among college men and women.  Journal of College Student Development, 29, 305-311.  (A sample of actively dating college students <204 women and 140 men> responded to a survey examining courtship violence.  Authors report that there were no significant differences between the sexes in self reported perpetration of physical abuse.)


You DID notice the difference in the figures for the first "study" here right?  Women questioned 2 to 1 compared to men and wow, the number of incidents equal?

It gets better though:

Quote
Arias, I., Samios, M., & O'Leary, K. D. (1987).  Prevalence and correlates of physical aggression during courtship. Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 2, 82-90. (Used Conflict Tactics Scale with a sample of 270 undergraduates <95 men, 175 women> and found 30% of men and 49% of women reported using some form of  aggression in their dating histories with a greater percentage of women engaging in severe physical aggression.)


Here again, a 2 to 1 ratio.  Is that the only way they can get equal numbers?  Something is wrong here.

Quote
Bernard, M. L., & Bernard, J. L. (1983).  Violent intimacy: The family as a model for love relationships.  Family Relations, 32, 283-286.  (Surveyed 461 college students, 168 men, 293 women, with regard to dating violence.  Found that 15% of the men admitted to physically abusing their partners, while 21% of women admitted to physically abusing their partners.)


What is it with this 2 to 1 ratio anyway?  Got to even those numbers out for the resulting data somehow I guess.

Interesting thing is they used this 2 to 1 ratio for each of these studies......well, not each of them.  Some of the studies employed a 3 to 1 ratio.  3 women compared to 1 man responding and then they reported the results as if it was an even response ratio?

Oh, you may need to know.  I'm a senior engineer for a research and development group for a major defense contractor.  I have an extremely thorough understanding of hard data and how it can be manipulated.

Let's try starting with studies that utilize data gathered from the same number of respondents from each gender pool.

You wouldn't want to try to employ skewed data now would you?




Part of your argument is true, as an eneven quota can skew the results of an experiment.  Saying that though, there are a plethora of other factors that can skew the results of a survey on DV.  You're probably aware that society's expectations on what it is to be a man is one of the main reasons that male victims of DV are reluctant to talk about their abuse.

It can be quite beneficial for a woman to portray herself as a "victim".  A false accusation of DV and/or rape can be used to gain leverage during a custody dispute and/or divorce hearing.  Lawyers encourage women to make false accusations of DV and/or rape against their spouses for this reason.  Men can falsely accuse women of DV, however they're less likely to be believed.

Out of curiosity, what is your opinion on the following situation.  A survey on DV is conducted.  The researchers nterview 250 men and 500 women.  They find that 40 men and 80 women admitted that they were violent towards their spouses.  That means 16% of the men and 16% of the women were guilty of committing DV.  Is this a fair survey, or is it skewed?