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Title: Why I feel tongue-tied running minority mother support group
Post by: closetrightyNYC on Dec 12, 2003, 03:04 PM
More musings from my internship.  I co-lead a mother support group that is in Spanish.  My co-leader has Spanish as her first language, as do the moms that attend.  And even though I understand Spanish fairly well and am working on speaking it well, I feel completely tongue-tied in the group.  My co-leader confronted me on it yesterday, and after some thinking, I think I figured out why.

I volunteered for the group thinking that it would help my Spanish and also help me understand more about the problems facing these moms' kids (aka, my clients).  Within a few days I felt uncomfortable being there, and I said so.  I was essentially guilt-tripped by my supervisor and coleader for wanting out, being told that "You represent the oppressive society that doesn't appreciate them.  By dropping out you tell Latina women that you collude with that larger society.  By staying, you represent a part of white society that understands them, and show that you don't collude with the prejudiced majority."  

In other words, I was invited (no, coerced) to co-lead this group not to allow me to learn (I am after all a student) how groups work, not to practice Spanish as I was initially told, but to help put down the society I was raised in and show them my inner socialist.  Show them that yes, I realize how oppressed they are and how they lack opportunities, and that i will rally behind them all the way as they live on welfare and choose not to become documented immigrants.  But of course, I'm also supposed to represent the good feminist American society that "empowers" them against their patriarchal Mexican husbands.  

I find it hard to lead a group that forces me to rally around ideals I don't believe in.  I don't believe these women are oppressed; in fact, I feel that I'd like to see each and every one of them enrolled in E.S.L. classes and looking for work.  I want them to celebrate the complementary gender roles of Mexican society rather than throwing them off for the Gloria Steinem part of America.  Granted, if one of them is being hit by her husband or something, then that is an issue, but that is not the case for most of them.  

So when I do speak up in this group, I'm usually puppeting the liberal values I'm supposed to support as the American hippie I'm representing to them, and saying "Yes, I understand, I hate Bush's system and what it does to you, and I hate your husbands for holding you down, so become an American liberal feminist and celebrate."  

for example, last session, one lady was saying how she suspected her husband was having an affair.  Now, that is a problem.  But the group leacder pulled me in to talk about how in American society, it would be acceptable for the woman to cheat right back, and how it happens everywhere and cheating is accepted here in the U.S.  She asked what, as a White American, I would do if my husband cheated, and I think was sorely disappointed when I replied that I would be pissed off and probably leave, as opposed to finding my own guy-on-the-side and celebrating my sexuality.  The lady also wanted me to say that here in America, sex and love are not linked the way they are in Latin America, and that is' perfectly okay for this suspicious woman to find a guy just to have a sex thing with, while staying married to her husband.  But see for me, sex and love ARE intertwined--Sorry I can't be the "American liberated slut" the co-leader wants me to represent.

In all, the result is that I'm fairly quiet, and the co-leader doesn't understand why.  Yesterday I got a lecture about how I seem to be "In another world, thinking about other things, and how all my clients can sense that I don't pay attention." (Typical left-wing personal jab--I do pay attention, and "everybody" doesn't care either way, just her).  I have made it very clear to this woman that I'm uncomfortable in the group, but I don't feel right coming out and saying that I just simply don't want to pull Latina women in traditional families into the American feminazi welfare state way.  

I have a feeling that if I try to withdraw from that group, I'll be labeled a racist (Typical left-wing personal jab again--Coerce you into doing things by guilt trips and manipulation).  But this will mean staying tongue-tied each week until May, and constantly being reported for "not paying attention on the job."  What a dilemma.  Damn.
Title: Why I feel tongue-tied running minority mother support group
Post by: D on Dec 12, 2003, 06:00 PM
Are you sure this career is what you want?  I mean it doesn't look anything like something to help families but rather to deliver ideology under covert means.  

Which is what I've been saying all along ,  posts like yours seems to confirm nearly all of my rantings.  

These people are commie pukes, is there really any other way to look at it?  The only reason these shitheads have gotton so far is that deep down most people genuinely care about others.  All they do is take advantage of that.
Title: Why I feel tongue-tied running minority mother support group
Post by: Daymar on Dec 12, 2003, 06:01 PM
What would happen to you if you told them what you want to say?
Title: Why I feel tongue-tied running minority mother support group
Post by: D on Dec 12, 2003, 06:03 PM
Probably jail.
Title: Why I feel tongue-tied running minority mother support group
Post by: Daymar on Dec 12, 2003, 06:08 PM
I meant Closet, or is that what you were talking about.
Title: Why I feel tongue-tied running minority mother support group
Post by: D on Dec 12, 2003, 06:16 PM
That's what I was talking about.  Just being sarcastic.   :D   Though I still wouldn't be suprised by it.
Title: Re: Why I feel tongue-tied running minority mother support g
Post by: neoteny on Dec 13, 2003, 05:09 AM
Quote from: "closetrightyNYC"
[...] I co-lead a mother support group that is in Spanish. [...]


What is the stated purpose of said group? "Support group" is such a generic name that anything can fit into that. Is there a charter for the group? For the organization which provides this service?
Title: Why I feel tongue-tied running minority mother support group
Post by: dr e on Dec 13, 2003, 07:37 AM
Great question Neo.  In order to foil them Closet you will need to know their stated purpose of the group which will obviously not be the covert messages they are asking you to mouth.  Let us know the stated purpose and the goals of the group, the mission statement of the organization and let's see what can be done.  I have no doubt that you can use their own words to stop this nonsense.  

I attended a workshop yesterday at a local university.  It brought back all the memories of the rigid and sexist attitudes that pervades the helping professions in graduate schools.  You are in the middle of it and at risk since you have very little power and they hold the keys.
Title: Why I feel tongue-tied running minority mother support group
Post by: closetrightyNYC on Dec 13, 2003, 10:39 AM
Quote from: "Dr Evil"
Great question Neo.  In order to foil them Closet you will need to know their stated purpose of the group which will obviously not be the covert messages they are asking you to mouth.  Let us know the stated purpose and the goals of the group, the mission statement of the organization and let's see what can be done.  I have no doubt that you can use their own words to stop this nonsense.  

I attended a workshop yesterday at a local university.  It brought back all the memories of the rigid and sexist attitudes that pervades the helping professions in graduate schools.  You are in the middle of it and at risk since you have very little power and they hold the keys.


Ok, the purpose of the organization is to provide play therapy and other psychotherapy to kids growing up with disabilities (anything from ADHD or depression to mental retardation or physical birth defects).  The organization is located within a school setting but is not technically run by the school system, although we do follow the regulations of the public schools at this particular branch.

The purpose of the support group for moms is just that--Support for mothers of children with disabilities.  Normalizing their feelings about raising a handicapped child, and letting them know what resources they can get.  A lot of times the group serves just that purpose, and many of the moms do ask for ESL referrals, which they do get.  It's just that many times the conversations will tangent onto the topic of the "American concept" vs. the "Latino concept" of marriage, family, and motherhood, and my co-leader has decided to use me not as a social worker, but as a "representation of white society" to show these women that white society can support them.  The way to show that white society can support them is by encouraging them to go on welfare and to stand up to their husbands, and not to sacrifice too hard for their children ("Do something for yourself," etc).  

It's not the mission statement part that's the problem, it's the cultural statement they're trying to get across, through using me.   And I do mean using.  And I can't get across the "Don't worry, I hate white society too and will teach you feminism" message well enough to speak up.
Title: Why I feel tongue-tied running minority mother support group
Post by: Galt on Dec 13, 2003, 10:44 AM
That was a good approach from Dr. Evil, but it will probably not be realizable in your situation.

The Left seems to think that it is above rules and principles, because it is pushing something "good" (it's self-righteous version of what is good).

I have run into people like that in my life, and they will simply use their positions to push across their judgmental view of what should happen.  I happen to think that this is absolutely rampant in social work, therapy, psychology etc. on the whole, but I have very little real contact or experience with that, so I may be off-kilter.  At least Dr. Evil and ClosetyRighty give hope that they're not ALL like that in the profession.
Title: Why I feel tongue-tied running minority mother support group
Post by: Galt on Dec 13, 2003, 10:48 AM
I know that a friend of mine had problems in his marriage and agreed to go to marital therapy (he has now been divorced for a long time).  What he told me from the sessions - with two different therapists - still enrages me today.
Title: Why I feel tongue-tied running minority mother support group
Post by: closetrightyNYC on Dec 13, 2003, 10:50 AM
Quote from: "Galt"
That was a good approach from Dr. Evil, but it will probably not be realizable in your situation.

The Left seems to think that it is above rules and principles, because it is pushing something "good" (it's self-righteous version of what is good).

I have run into people like that in my life, and they will simply use their positions to push across their judgmental view of what should happen.  I happen to think that this is absolutely rampant in social work, therapy, psychology etc. on the whole, but I have very little real contact or experience with that, so I may be off-kilter.  At least Dr. Evil and ClosetyRighty give hope that they're not ALL like that in the profession.


You mean like the psychologist I used to see who told me not to feel used because of past hookups (ones I REALLY regret), and "Don't beat yourself up for having sexual feelings.  It's something most people your age do, and no guy is looking for committal sex and you shouldn't be either.  Go out, enjoy yourself, and just know the next day that you had a good night, regardless of whether or not there's attachment."  

Yaaaah....I kind of became one of those no-show clients with her after awhile.    :roll: But of course, she was a former hippie and would tell me all about her old tie-dyed jumpsuit in the 70's.  

But yes, the thing about telling others what's right is very rampant--It also happens when we work with parents who spank, and are supposed to lecture them about how "Corporal punishment is usually not the best way to discipline a child, and we know this better than you.  Try negotiating with your 5-year-old and letting HER have a say.  Talk it out, don't punish!"  and THEY are THE PARENTS!! Argh!!!   :x
Title: Why I feel tongue-tied running minority mother support group
Post by: closetrightyNYC on Dec 13, 2003, 10:52 AM
Quote from: "Galt"
I know that a friend of mine had problems in his marriage and agreed to go to marital therapy (he has now been divorced for a long time).  What he told me from the sessions - with two different therapists - still enrages me today.


What was he told?
Title: Why I feel tongue-tied running minority mother support group
Post by: Galt on Dec 13, 2003, 10:55 AM
The problem I always had with social work - although I readily admit that it is needed in some cases in society - was that terms like "intervention" could be negatively interpreted as "butting in".  

I think that in a case in which children are being beaten (I mean ... really beaten), for instance, the state should intervene.  But this has been extended to so much more, and so much more nonsense.

And when I read cases like the ones in Florida in which the case worker simply forged her travel sheets - claiming to visit families she never did - and a little girl turned up dead - I wonder about the level of competency in those organizations.
Title: Why I feel tongue-tied running minority mother support group
Post by: Galt on Dec 13, 2003, 11:00 AM
<<What was he told?>>

As one example - he knew that his wife was considering a divorce.  So in therapy, she started crying that he ... didn't trust her ... and, for example, some of his assets were in his name alone.  The (male) therapist told him to instantly put all of his assets in joint name to show his trust.  It turns out that at the point in time she was saying that she had already (unbenownst to the husband or therapist) engaged an attorney, and she waited a few weeks to see if he would put the assets in joint name.  When she decided he was too slow moving, she served him anyway.

My friend actually called the therapist, and he (naturally) absolved all responsibility from himself with "you can't predict things like that" - although he was full of advice, in fact pushing hard, before.  And he's paying him for advice like that??

That's ONE example, there were many more.

I have probably seen three couples in my life go to marital counseling; all of them are divorced and all of them said that if you get down to brass tacks it wasn't really useful.
Title: Why I feel tongue-tied running minority mother support group
Post by: closetrightyNYC on Dec 13, 2003, 11:03 AM
Quote from: "Galt"
The problem I always had with social work - although I readily admit that it is needed in some cases in society - was that terms like "intervention" could be negatively interpreted as "butting in".  

I think that in a case in which children are being beaten (I mean ... really beaten), for instance, the state should intervene.  But this has been extended to so much more, and so much more nonsense.

And when I read cases like the ones in Florida in which the case worker simply forged her travel sheets - claiming to visit families she never did - and a little girl turned up dead - I wonder about the level of competency in those organizations.


I agree--I have no problem with child protective services intervening in very severe cases.  What is always beyong me, however, is how these severe beating/starving cases seem to get ignored, whereas the second you tell a supervisor that someone is spanking their child or left them home alone for 20 minutes, the call is made faster than you can say your own name.

I really don't get how leaving a 8-10 year old child home alone for a very short period of time is now considered neglect.  If that had been true in the '80's, my parents would be in jail and I'd be a foster child.  They used to leave me home voluntarily because I wanted to stay home and watch TV instead of coming with them to pick up my sister at basketball practice.  They taught me all emergency numbers to call, what not to touch, and how to handle it if the doorbell rings, among other things.  These things used to be taught universally.  Now I hear about children that age who are left in an apartment alone for like half an hour while Mom gets milk across the street, and CPS is called.  At my last internship, they threatened to call CPS because a mom left her baby on the bed in her room  for about 30 seconds while a neighbor across the halll handed her something.  WTF?
Title: Why I feel tongue-tied running minority mother support group
Post by: Galt on Dec 13, 2003, 11:09 AM
I guess that every profession tries to expand its sphere of influence.  And the government does that in any case.
Title: Why I feel tongue-tied running minority mother support group
Post by: Galt on Dec 13, 2003, 11:11 AM
It would probably be more efficient if they concentrated on the REAL cases (beating/starving/neglect and the like).  But the mission has expanded so much that the REAL cases are sometimes being ignored, either because the case worker now has so much to do (with the smaller cases) or because the government doesn't seem to value competence anymore (affirmative action and the like are more important than skill or competence).
Title: Why I feel tongue-tied running minority mother support group
Post by: Amber on Dec 13, 2003, 11:15 AM
Closet, I say f*ck those commie bastards who tell you you need to join a class for OTHER people's self interest and not your own.
Title: Why I feel tongue-tied running minority mother support group
Post by: D on Dec 13, 2003, 12:47 PM
Funny how it was feminism that was one of the strongest supporters of cps.  Seems to be working against women now doesn't it?   :?
Title: Why I feel tongue-tied running minority mother support group
Post by: neoteny on Dec 15, 2003, 07:14 AM
Quote from: "Dan Lynch"
Funny how it was feminism that was one of the strongest supporters of cps.  Seems to be working against women now doesn't it?   :?


Yeppers, Heart on the MSBoards regularly tossed a belt over womyn being fucked over by CPS...  :lol:
Title: Why I feel tongue-tied running minority mother support group
Post by: dr e on Dec 15, 2003, 07:30 AM
Closet - Sorry I missed your reply.  

It seems they are trying to use you to incorporate these women into the culture of permissible affairs?   Hmmmm, I would bet that diversity is honored, at least in writing, and you may be able to use that to a degree.  Could you ask the women about peers of theirs who they may admire in their responses?  Maybe even ask about heroes and heroines of their culture who have found ways to work with this sort of issue.  I think I might try and steer things into an area of honoring their culture and history as a means to both help them and to foil the attempts of the nutty co-leader to use you for her own purposes.  I think the co-leader would be hard pressed to censor you for honoring their culture, friends and successful strategies.  If she did take issue with what you said it would put out front her motive of trying to push her values onto these clients and that should be an easy peice to deflate.

What do you think?