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Stand Your Ground Forums => Main => Topic started by: LST on Aug 21, 2004, 11:14 PM

Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: LST on Aug 21, 2004, 11:14 PM
It is a fake feminism branch that is created specifically for the purpose of stifling the men's movement. From the articles that Wendy McElroy posts it is clear that she hates men, just like any other feminist. And furthermore, she keeps railing about women and how oppressed they are :--( She also defends pornography, and what pornography is ! It is a tool of sexual control by women ! She wants pornography to be protected so that women can continue being sexual idols in the minds of men and men will worship them and be obsessed about sex and have psychosexual disorders.
iFeminism is spefically designed to appear friendly to men so that it can cling itself to men's movements and then choke them down by telling them to be more "reserved" and "peaceful". It is a wolf in a lamb's coat !
Don't swallow the bait ! Let us all show Wendy McElroy the middle finger.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: CaptDMO on Aug 22, 2004, 07:35 PM
Golly, um... take your issue up with her on her site. If your looking for "allies" in this matter you won't find them in this poster. Nor will you find long winded accolades in either direction.

EDIT; In hindsight, I'm sorry I even responded.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: kal147 on Aug 22, 2004, 07:58 PM
Quote
... She also defends pornography, and what pornography is ! It is a tool of sexual control by women ! She wants pornography to be protected so that women can continue being sexual idols in the minds of men and men will worship them and be obsessed about sex and have psychosexual disorders.


Yes! Yes! Ban pornography!!!! Burn the books!!!

Oh wait a minute, hell with you if you think I'm gunna give up my subscription to biggums.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: FEMINAZIHATEMARTYR on Aug 22, 2004, 08:28 PM
All feminism is a scam. Define feminism.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: LSBeene on Aug 23, 2004, 05:07 AM
LST .... if you have a problem with Wendy or iFeminism take it there.  But from what I have read Wendy's columns and site promote a fair balance between the genders.

She brings up men's issues all the time, when most other nationally syndicated reporters don't.

There is nothing substantive in your post that supports your attack.

Steven
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: dr e on Aug 23, 2004, 06:14 AM
Wendy has done a great deal to raise awareness about men's issues.  My hat is off to her for her contribution to our cause.  Let any man here who is critical of her who thinks he has done more for our cause than her step forward and tell us what he has accomplished.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Double Jeopardy on Aug 23, 2004, 07:29 AM
Wendy has made considerable strides to equal the playing field, Dr. Evil, though she is not above critique. Somewhere, somehow, everybody has a voice in this matter, credentials are nice, however, being a man in this day and age is something Wendy will never be. From where I sit it appears this man is attempting to make an effort, thwarting him like that is exactly what none of us should be doing. Attack why he does not support her, he already feels she has been a detriment. If she has not, it should be easy to correct him, right?
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: dr e on Aug 23, 2004, 07:49 AM
I agree that no one is above critique.  OTOH there is a difference between critique and condemnation.  Labelling someone who has been helpful to our movement as a hater of men is suspect.  If you are going to make a global attack such as this I want to know what YOU have done.  The internet makes it far too easy for those who do nothing to complain and moan about those who do something.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: MacKenzie on Aug 23, 2004, 08:48 AM
While I still consider her a supporter, wasn't a key criticism of Wendy (at MND) that she had a unfortunate habit of implying in her articles that she *knew* better than men at what "men's rights" were to be?  A tendency to play "gatekeeper" ?  :wink:
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: LST on Aug 23, 2004, 08:50 AM
I haven't done anything but i think that she is just using a cleverly disguised tactic so that she can suppress the men's movement and keep it "quiet" and not let it become radical. Because too many men first notice her website (like me for example) and are all happy and swallow the bait (unlike me). Well maybe "let's show her the middle finger" is too harsh, since i can't know this for sure, but i am very suspicious of her. She is still a feminist !
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: dr e on Aug 23, 2004, 08:53 AM
I'm sure that Wendy has many faults.  However, the fact is that she is an ally and to condemn her is like "friendly fire" in a war zone.
Title: Re: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: InternetDevil on Aug 23, 2004, 09:00 AM
Quote from: "LST8000"
It is a fake feminism branch that is created specifically for the purpose of stifling the men's movement. From the articles that Wendy McElroy posts it is clear that she hates men, just like any other feminist.


Wendy Mc Elroy stands for TRUE GENDER EQALITY.  She stands for FREEDOM as our Forefathers had defined it.  She is honest.

But then by being 100% honest she made enemies among both radical feminists and misogynists.  She supported me and LSBene as men abused by the system.  And she supports womens right to self-defense.

Quote from: "LST8000"
iFeminism is spefically designed to appear friendly to men so that it can cling itself to men's movements and then choke them down by telling them to be more "reserved" and "peaceful". It is a wolf in a lamb's coat !


FREEDOM for which she fights means that she is not TELLING anyone to be anything.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: InternetDevil on Aug 23, 2004, 09:03 AM
Quote from: "Dr Evil"
I'm sure that Wendy has many faults.  However, the fact is that she is an ally and to condemn her is like "friendly fire" in a war zone.


Yes in early 1990-s I also used to vent my anger on my BENEFACTORS.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: LST on Aug 23, 2004, 09:09 AM
Why does she call herself a feminist then :--(
And by the way she had an abusive husband or something as far as i remember. Do you not think that this experience could have caused her to hate men ?
"Wendy Mc Elroy stands for TRUE GENDER EQALITY." - I believe that this is not a very wise thing to say, how can you know what is on her mind.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: InternetDevil on Aug 23, 2004, 09:23 AM
Quote from: "LST8000"
Why does she call herself a feminist then :--(
And by the way she had an abusive husband or something as far as i remember. Do you not think that this experience could have caused her to hate men ?


    Having been abused myself for 14 years I understand your anger and I think you should express it.  But you have no right to attak your benefactors.  How would you feel if your neighbour robs you because his parents abused him.

    Wendy Mc. Elroy hates the man who has hurt her, and she writes about a woman's right to self-defence.  But she also defens battered men and falsely imprisoned men.  I guess she is not on either side.  She is on the side of HUMAN RIGHTS for all.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Double Jeopardy on Aug 23, 2004, 09:44 AM
Quote from: "MacKenzie"
While I still consider her a supporter, wasn't a key criticism of Wendy (at MND) that she had a unfortunate habit of implying in her articles that she *knew* better than men at what "men's rights" were to be?  A tendency to play "gatekeeper" ?  :wink:


Written articles by Wendy that tend to lend themselves to exactly what you have suggested is by in large what I have seen from Wendy for the most part. She has a website, and a venue to be heard. Others are not as fortunate, being a woman who came out with an angle offering men an olive branch of sorts gave her the edge most men are denied. It's either compete with Wendy or shut up. Not that I necessarily condone bashing her, I do condemn thwarting men with the "What have YOU done" tactic, it isn't a fair playing field and I have seen feminists use this tactic all too often. Watching Wendy or any woman tell men they know what is best for them more than they do themselves, is just like watching a white man tell a native american the same thing. It is suspect, it is going to face opposition. While I appreciate Dr. Evils contention about Wendy, as well as the feminists who are here to bash men on occasion we are told to debate what we oppose, not thwart, challenge negatively, or condescend. It's only fair.

LST8000 has charged that Wendy is a fraud, and I would like to see something more than "I like her, cut it out or else" utlilized in this context. Some of us are undecided, maybe a little more than a "what have YOU done" is in order. I can get that at any feminist forum.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: FEMINAZIHATEMARTYR on Aug 23, 2004, 10:48 AM
Quote
LST8000 has charged that Wendy is a fraud, and I would like to see something more than "I like her, cut it out or else" utlilized in this context. Some of us are undecided, maybe a little more than a "what have YOU done" is in order. I can get that at any feminist forum.


Perhaps what we're asking for is too much, too soon. I dont believe Wendy is a fraud, just a little naiive. Its the term "Ifeminist" to the average MRA  seems phony (and to the radical feminists as well, hehe but thats ok). Wendy, in probably a naiive way believes that the term "Ifeminist" redefines feminism to mean some kind of "gender equality".  However to ask her to lose the term feminist would be bewildering for her since she might actually believe it to mean such. If she would supplant the word feminist with egalitarian, then this would be more accurate. Howver Ive noticed that politically moderate women dont usually encounter the hubris of radical feminists and naiively consider themselves to be "true feminists" because of their own stance on egalitarianism. They probably dont understand that the terminology itself can be powerfully damaging and are maybe only somewhat aware of all the controversy. This is why I reject the term feminist altogether because of its overall contrived nonsense and confusion.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: LST on Aug 23, 2004, 11:02 AM
Yes, the word "feminist" has been used so many times and in so many different contests that it is completely meaningless, and it is also stupid to use it as a name for an equality movement. Feminism == female supremacy movement.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: dr e on Aug 23, 2004, 11:04 AM
DJ wrote
Quote
LST8000 has charged that Wendy is a fraud, and I would like to see something more than "I like her, cut it out or else" utlilized in this context. Some of us are undecided, maybe a little more than a "what have YOU done" is in order. I can get that at any feminist forum.


Read her articles and decide for yourself.  My reading of what she has written over the years tells me that she is an ally to men.  Perhaps you may see it differently.  If someone calls her a fraud it is their responsibility to give evidence for this accusation.  

I will continue to question men about what they have done.  It is essential that we turn the hurt and anger into action.  This is the masculine path.  Turning anger into action.   Only complaining is not nearly as effective.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: dr e on Aug 23, 2004, 11:07 AM
DJ wrote
Quote
While I appreciate Dr. Evils contention about Wendy, as well as the feminists who are here to bash men on occasion we are told to debate what we oppose, not thwart, challenge negatively, or condescend. It's only fair.


What are you talking about?
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: devia on Aug 23, 2004, 12:42 PM
LS8000

All female humans arn't all bad.. honest!

http://www.livejournal.com/community/welikehumans/


P.S

Sorry that the girls in junior high didn't see you as a sex object.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: D on Aug 23, 2004, 12:46 PM
:jump:
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: LST on Aug 23, 2004, 01:01 PM
I hate humans, they are terrible. Look at the world around yourself !
Everyone is selfish and filled with vanity and prudishness to no end. Sooner or later this rotten society will explode like a giant cyst, it is just a matter of time !
By the way i didn't seriously mean it when i said that i thought that girls should dream of having sex with me, why would anyone think such a thing. :--/
Also devia: You like humans but you hate men ? Ok.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Double Jeopardy on Aug 23, 2004, 01:21 PM
Quote from: "devia"
LS8000

All female humans arn't all bad.. honest!

http://www.livejournal.com/community/welikehumans/


P.S

Sorry that the girls in junior high didn't see you as a sex object.



Devia, can you link me to a post where LST8000 stated the girls in junior high didn't think he was a sex object? Or was that just a drive by ad hominem of the junior high level?
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: VicVanity on Aug 23, 2004, 02:24 PM
Quote from: "Dr Evil"
Wendy has done a great deal to raise awareness about men's issues.  My hat is off to her for her contribution to our cause.  Let any man here who is critical of her who thinks he has done more for our cause than her step forward and tell us what he has accomplished.


Well Doc  , I have taken the time to counsel with men who have been wrongly imprisoned , I have helped looked after the children of men Child wrongly for child support arrearages , I protest  , i write letters to my representatives , I have spit on CSEA workers,  I have went to jail for contempt for Telling a judge he was a criminal supporta system that was criminal  simply to benifit his wallet  . I have donated Time and Money when i had it , I am educating My son and working to educate Men and boys   , I have been down in the trenches . i have fought feminism to the point it left me homeless  for a short period of time  . and well Doc it insults me that you question  What anyan has done for the mens movement When they are hear speaking about feminism in the first place  .  Wendy has ridden on the coat tails of People like Dr Farrel and Sandford Braver  . I highly doubt you will  Say anything to devia for her comment to Lst8000  Just like you let stuff from Alicia and Her go past before  .  . If it wasnt for the posts by Guys like pernicious , stally,Gabriel,Assualt and Shawn  I would not even be wasting my time
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: dr e on Aug 23, 2004, 03:34 PM
Vic said:
Quote
I highly doubt you will Say anything to devia for her comment to Lst8000


Just what do you think needs to be done?  What rule has she broken?
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: DLove on Aug 23, 2004, 05:13 PM
VicVanity, for your efforts we salute you. Each of us should strive to do at least half of what you have done on a consistent basis.

I was quite surprised to hear all the unconditional support for Wendy. I think that the independent feminist (smirk) and their intellectional babble, seems to harbor not on the core issues of the men's movement and the real anger that is smokin' there but the discussion is usually about the softer more palatable ideas that while they provide thoughtful conversation, they are never about core men’s issues that would make her and her articles bullseye pinup targets for the radical feminist. I have too have heard it mentioned that the web site provides 'fodder' for her articles not that that is a bad idea but LS8000 seems to find fault where many others have similar impression and his criticism should not be tossed out like yesterdays garbage, because she is after all a feminist and just how far down the path do you think she will go before it gets a bit distasteful?  I do applaud Wendy and her contributions directed as InternetDevil says towards a True Gender Equality, (Is that like peace on earth?) but I don’t think discussions that compare human equality and correcting the misandry men face today is really productive. We have beaten the (Role of women in MRO's) cow already and since we have all chosen our sides on this issue I think we can each say she has made contributions towards the movement BUT that being said, there are many of us who still wonder how effective can this soft mumbo jumbo be when we believe that angrier, louder and stronger voices is what is needed to be heard.

DLove
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: VicVanity on Aug 23, 2004, 06:55 PM
Quote from: "Dr Evil"
Vic said:
Quote
I highly doubt you will Say anything to devia for her comment to Lst8000


Just what do you think needs to be done?  What rule has she broken?


2. Personal attacks are not allowed.


5. People can fight with each other all they want. As long as they focus on attacking each others ideas then all is good. If people start attacking the individual then then we have a problem.

Quote
devia Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 7:42 pm    Post subject:  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LS8000

All female humans arn't all bad.. honest!

http://www.livejournal.com/community/welikehumans/


P.S

Sorry that the girls in junior high didn't see you as a sex object



i see that as a personal attack  and a violation of rule Number 2 and 5  as posted By one of your mods
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: dr e on Aug 23, 2004, 07:10 PM
Where is the attack in saying that?  It could be taken as a smart ass thing to say but I don't see it as a personal attack.  Please tell me just how you see that as a personal attack?  If we banned people for saying smart ass things a whole lotta folks would be gone by now.  Would you like me to ban Devia for saying this?  If so, then I will go back and look at the last couple of days for people making smart ass comments and ban them too.  Let me know what you would like.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: VicVanity on Aug 23, 2004, 07:23 PM
i Makes no diffrence what you do  as it is Your board  it simplys seems to me as there is a diffrent set of rules for diffrent folks  ....
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: dr e on Aug 23, 2004, 07:36 PM
Well then make your case and show everyone how I treat people differently.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: CaptDMO on Aug 23, 2004, 08:18 PM
Quote from: "Dr Evil"
Where is the attack in saying that?  It could be taken as a smart ass thing to say but I don't see it as a personal attack.  Please tell me just how you see that as a personal attack?  If we banned people for saying smart ass things a whole lotta folks would be gone by now.  Would you like me to ban Devia for saying this?  If so, then I will go back and look at the last couple of days for people making smart ass comments and ban them too.  Let me know what you would like.


Nooooooooooooooo! PLEASE don't go back and ban...um....people.....that have a history of smart ass remarks.

However, thank you Vic, for pointing out the usual suspects(and the usual champions). As much as I try to maintain serenity, I too see the same old, same old, and try to nip it in the bud. Unfortunately, for some silly integrity thing, I only use one name, EVER. And because I like to post here I force self restraint. Perhaps........ too much.
 I find it easier and easier to recognize the writings of specific folk hiding behind several masks. As I'm not a moderator with tracking resources,I can only OPINE this;

    LST800- "Methinks ye doth protest too much"  Shakespeare

Dr Evil
          LET IT BE  KNOWN TO ALL CONCERNED
 The posts under "devia" have a clear history of childish snipeing. They have been rife with disruptive and contraproductive printed vandalism. If you are asking for input on this matter, I say ban repeated posters of "I know you are but what  am  I?" and "Who?..ME!" and, "I'll bet you....."
level of logic. It will give them more time to enrich their own web pages.
 This is MY OPINION on this poster "devia" s  musings and on this-                   I STAND MY GROUND
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: dr e on Aug 23, 2004, 08:27 PM
Thanks for the feedback Capt'n.  

Quote
The posts under "devia" have a clear history of childish snipeing. They have been rife with disruptive and contraproductive printed vandalism. If you are asking for input on this matter, I say ban repeated posters of "I know you are but what am I?" and "Who?..ME!" and, "I'll bet you....."
level of logic. It will give them more time to enrich their own web pages.
This is MY OPINION on this poster "devia" s musings and on this- I STAND MY GROUND


I agree completely that Devia has a history of childish sniping and that she has been a party to the "I know you are but what am I?" mentality.  The question in my mind is, is that enough to ban someone?  Because they are childish and annoying?  If that is true then there are a couple of people I can think of that need to go.  Devia is bright and knows how to stay within the rules.  If this group wants to make new rules that is a different question and one I would be happy to discuss.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Double Jeopardy on Aug 23, 2004, 10:51 PM
res ipsa loquitur[/i]
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Q on Aug 24, 2004, 03:52 AM
Double Jeopardy, are you saying the people should speak for themsleves, or the board should?

('cause if it's the people, then the usage is wrong, I think)
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: powder-monkey on Aug 24, 2004, 07:25 AM
DLove wrote:

"I was quite surprised to hear all the unconditional support for Wendy."
There was no unconditional support.  There were objections to unsubstantiated allegations about her hatred of men and evil intentions.

" I think that the independent feminist (smirk) and their intellectional babble, seems
to harbor not on the core issues of the men's movement and the real anger that is smokin' there but the discussion is usually about the softer more palatable
ideas that while they provide thoughtful conversation, they are never about core men's issues that would make her and her articles bullseye pinup targets
for the radical feminist."
So what?  Ifeminists makes no pretensions to being a MRA site.  Why waste time condemning those who are in sympathy with us, but don't conform to some arbitrary orthodoxy?  There are enough true enemies out there without searching out heretics to burn.

"We have beaten the (Role of women in MRO's) cow already and since we have all chosen our sides on this
issue I think we can each say she has made contributions towards the movement BUT that being said, there are many of us who still wonder how effective
can this soft mumbo jumbo be when we believe that angrier, louder and stronger voices is what is needed to be heard."
Who's stopping you?  At the end of the day, she adds weight to our side of the scales.

As for Devia's post:
She made a cross-thread reference which has led to some confusion.  If you read LST 8000's post, immediately following hers, he explains that he wasn't being serious when he made the remark.  This is probably why he is conspicuous by his absence amongst the complaintants - to his credit.  

p-m
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: kal147 on Aug 24, 2004, 08:27 AM
Imitation is the greatest form of flattery.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: InternetDevil on Aug 24, 2004, 11:39 AM
Quote from: "DLove"
I was quite surprised to hear all the unconditional support for Wendy.


Even if I have disagreements with her, her support of FREEDOM and equality makes me her ally.

In any case, we can never expect self bashing from our female allies -- like pro-feminist men do.  Most profeminist men are not free -- they are under court order to do so as an expiation for DV.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: LSBeene on Aug 24, 2004, 02:29 PM
I know I have been rather quiet and absent of late and I apologize for that.

People here have asked, either specifically or in general, why there is such widespread support from so many of Wendy McElroy.  

I would like the answer that.  

I am so supportive of her because of 2 major reasons:

1) This is why I support her on a personal level: When I was deep in my "I'm a falsely accused guy and no one cares" funk I wrote her a letter and poured out my hurt.  This was before I had ANY IDEA there WERE/ARE any men's boards.  I was utterly alone.  I could not talk to my wife as she didn't understand what I had been through, when I had told people (close friends) it had, invariably, leaked out and the whole "he's a rapist" whispering campaigns began, and I knew of no support apparatus for guys like me.

So, I wrote Wendy a letter.  I didn't know she was a syndicated columnist (I don't think she was quite famous yet), I just ran across her site.  Now, understand, I had no idea WHO she was or WHAT she stood for.  Part of my was a letter of "I dare you to say something you freaking feminist!" in tone, but a lot of it was hoping against hope (as I had been treated quite shabbily by many other women I had confided in) that I would hear FROM A WOMAN that what happened to me was wrong.  

The letter I got in return (she didn't have to write me at all, I mean, who was I to her?) was warm, empathetic, and referred me to some men's sites (Men's Activism if memory serves).  She showed me I wasn't alone.  She told me that what happened to me wasn't my fault.  She didn't treat me like shit (as many others HAD) or blame me or ask me "what did you do to piss this woman off?".  No, she treated me better than some of my "friends" had.  

So, that's why I support her on a personal level.

2) Why I support her as a fair advocate for equality:  Many of us know that if a woman doesn't walk in LOCK-STEP with the Feminazis that the woman is ostracized.  Wendy is her own person, and, in my opinion, is very equality minded.  She's stepped on quite a few feminazi toes, endured smear campaigns while sticking to her guns, and shown a lot of character.  She has told me, and no I won't reveal the details, of many personal attacks on her life, her marraige, and her professional career by feminazis.  They have sought to destroy her marraige, trick her by E-mail into saying something that can be used against her, and step on her career.  Does that sound like a friend of the Fem-Nat'l Socialists?

Do we MRAs agree with all her positions?  Hell, we don't always agree with each other!  But her writing has highlighted the wrongs done to dads, to men being raped in prison, exposed "cry rape for profit" scams, talked about CEDAW in the U.N., shown how the feminazis use "statistics", exposed how C.P.S. (Child Protective Services) is destroying families, shed light on the true agendas of "womyn's studies" programs, and published other authors who held her views.  Wendy has used her columns to print stuff that the mainstream press won't cover.  Why .. exactly, are we hating her?!  Does she bite as hard as we'd like?  I don't know, but that's HER style of writing and no one is going to please everyone, especially when the topics she covers are so freaking controversial to begin with.

Wendy, if she was what most of us MRAs term a "feminist", would tout the party line and be immensely more "popular".  But that's not what she does.  

It irks a lot of MRAs that she uses the word feminist in a positive manner.  I've noticed that.  To HER generation, and to her friends the word HAS some redemptive meaning, a root essence of equality.  Sure, I know pretty much everyone here has been burned (multiple times myself) by women calling themselves "feminists".  That's because the aristocratic "victimologist" harpies who use the word feminist have perverted it and twisted it.  Now, before you jump down my throat saying "feminism has always been bad", realize that I am defending the EQUALITY of the idea, not it's present nor past female supremacist ideology.


So there are the reasons I respect, and very much like, Wendy.  

I hope I added to the discussion.

Respectfully

Steven
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: kal147 on Aug 24, 2004, 04:10 PM
Quote
She has told me ... of many personal attacks on her life, her marraige, and her professional career by feminazis. They have sought to destroy her marraige, trick her by E-mail into saying something that can be used against her, and step on her career. Does that sound like a friend of the Fem-Nat'l Socialists?


Thanks Steven, I hadn't the patience for this thread as it was obviously a mean-spirited smear campaign by the thread originator.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Double Jeopardy on Aug 24, 2004, 04:59 PM
Quote from: "kal147"
Imitation is the greatest form of flattery.


Hold onto your socks, there, sport. No one is imitating you unless you confess to imitating LST8000.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Double Jeopardy on Aug 24, 2004, 05:02 PM
Quote from: "kal147"
Quote
She has told me ... of many personal attacks on her life, her marraige, and her professional career by feminazis. They have sought to destroy her marraige, trick her by E-mail into saying something that can be used against her, and step on her career. Does that sound like a friend of the Fem-Nat'l Socialists?


Thanks Steven, I hadn't the patience for this thread as it was obviously a mean-spirited smear campaign by the thread originator.



It sounds like Wendy can handle her own affairs quite easily. LST8000 has done no harm. Besides, the idea that your enemies enemy must be your friend is a very near sighted outlook on reality.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: kal147 on Aug 24, 2004, 07:04 PM
Quote
No one is imitating you


Oh, really pal

Quote
It sounds like Wendy can handle her own affairs quite easily.


Well Wendy's not here is she? But, she has friends here.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Double Jeopardy on Aug 24, 2004, 08:19 PM
Quote from: "kal147"
Quote
No one is imitating you


Oh, really pal


U betcha, bub.

Quote from: "kal147"
Quote
It sounds like Wendy can handle her own affairs quite easily.


Well Wendy's not here is she? But, she has friends here.


I know Wendy well enough to know she could very well be reading this and could care less, being her friend you should know that as well.  She no doubt would care less, a lot less than you,  apparently. :lol:
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: LSBeene on Aug 24, 2004, 09:32 PM
Gee .. KAL likes Wendy ... Double Jepordy likes Wendy ... and we're having a pissing contest WHY exactly?

Inquiring minds wanna know?   :twisted:

Steven
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Double Jeopardy on Aug 24, 2004, 11:01 PM
I never said I liked or disliked her. I said I knew her pretty well.  What I tried to point out is if anyone disagreed with LST8000 about his charge of Ifeminism being fake and Wendy being a false prophet, to assess his allegation. It makes no sense to dance a fools dance to upstage the alleged fool.

kal147 appears to be a slow learner. I'll wait right here and let him catch up. :lol:
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Double Jeopardy on Aug 24, 2004, 11:01 PM
Double post.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Tony Ananda on Aug 25, 2004, 09:34 AM
I used to be a fan of Wendy McElroy but I don't bother reading her stuff anymore.  The same goes for Cathy Young.  They both said what they had to say about five years ago and since then have been treading over the same ground.  

Now let's examine Christina Hoff Sommers' latest piece;

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=14801

There she goes again saying that feminism at one time was wonderful and accomplished wonderful things for women until it was hijacked by fundamentalist fanatics.  I disagree.  I think feminism was based on hatred and some tawdry dissatisfactions that plague modern life.  It was essentially shallow and self serving from the get go.  Does that mean I want Christina to fuck off and die?  No, I want her to keep doing what she is doing even though she is a little off.  She could (and should) be much stronger in her condemnation of the origins of feminism which, I feel, she hasn't examined closely enough.  Maybe she will some day.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Aug 25, 2004, 09:42 AM
I used to like both Wendy McElroy and Cathy Young.  My current opinion:

Wendy McElroy: I've seen remarks from her on her message boards - and not just one or two times - that indicate that she has a real problem with "MRAs" or even men who stick up for themselves.  I get the feeling that she is a bossy person who is defending her turf - the fact that she earns her living as a mediocre writer due to a niche.  I also get the same feeling as posters above that she (thinks she ....) knows what men should do.  I no longer trust her motives - just a personal opinion.

In full disclosure, I was banned from her message boards, but I think my opinion is independent of that.  In fact, I probably got banned because I felt like being a troublemaker - BECAUSE of my opinion of her.

Cathy Young: I used to really like her, but her columns lately try too hard to "see all sides" - and they consequently don't really say anything.  I think she's just gotten used to doing her columns and doesn't want to rock the boat anymore.  I really liked her early stuff, and she's probably a nice person.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Mr Benn on Aug 25, 2004, 10:53 AM
The reason why many MRA are very aggravated by iFeminists is partially summarised in this article by AH:

http://www.angryharry.com/esEquityFeminists.htm

also, I don't see the fact that iFeminsts support "equality" as being in and of itself of benefit to men. The endless quest for "equality" between the sexes has done society a lot of harm, and some of this is also summarised in another AH article:

http://www.angryharry.com/esEqualityNotAchievable.htm
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Aug 25, 2004, 11:04 AM
I get the feeling that "IFeminists" is supposed to become a trademark.

I went to high school with a guy who had his "trademark" tattoed on him.  I mean, cool, in high school.  He later went to prison, and his egotism seemed to have a fading importance as I got older.

Wendy McElroy is starting a movement.  She is really important.  Umm ... OK.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Double Jeopardy on Aug 25, 2004, 11:58 AM
Galt I don't remember seeing you on Wendy's forum, were you posting as Galt then?  I am in total agreement with both you and Mr. Benn and subsequently,  AH.  Your statement overall where Wendy and Ifeminism is concerned is something I can really sink my teeth into.  Whenever a woman comes from the POV of " I know what is best for men " , I get a strong doubt about their bottom line purpose and what it really means to men.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: kal147 on Aug 25, 2004, 12:46 PM
Steven wrote:

Quote
Gee .. KAL likes Wendy ... Double Jepordy likes Wendy


Clearly double jeopardy doesn't care much for Wendy, he stated that:

Quote
Some of us are undecided


However, he seems to fully support the initial post of this thread, the salient features being:

1) it is clear that she (Wendy) hates men,

2) She wants pornography to be protected so that women can continue being sexual idols in the minds of men and men will worship them and be obsessed about sex and have psychosexual disorders.

3) Let us all show Wendy McElroy the middle finger.

Double Jeopardy seems to be on some sort of twisted soap box defending the above. Well, what is it -- is he undecided about Wendy, or is he simply as ignorant as he seems.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: dr e on Aug 25, 2004, 01:11 PM
Kal - That is looking too close to a personal attack to me.  Please edit.  Let's attack the ideas not the people.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Stallywood on Aug 25, 2004, 01:22 PM
I used to lurk the Ifeminist site but I have given it up. I came to the conclusion that that site is not about fixing the hard problems as those are danced around, and the writer is usually condemed for generlization. Cause as we all know, "All women arent like that" and the women who do throw us a bone every now and again, are supposed to though of as angels. Anyone can pay lip service, and if I am accused of hate because I dont bow down at the throne of Wendy, so be it.  
LST8000:  dont let them get you down.
Stally
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Double Jeopardy on Aug 25, 2004, 01:34 PM
Quote from: "Dr Evil"
Kal - That is looking too close to a personal attack to me.  Please edit.  Let's attack the ideas not the people.


I don't mind,  Dr. Evil.  He can think whatever he wants.  From I have seen of kal147 is that he likes to practice that which he protests.  Sticks and stones, as it where. :lol:
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Stallywood on Aug 25, 2004, 02:01 PM
An article from a man who also has his differences:

http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=7014#


Another Perspective
Is Evolution Leaving Men Behind?   By Christopher Orlet  
Published 8/23/2004 12:05:03 AM

Here's something Charles Darwin in all his philosophies never imagined. As the third millennium of the common era kicks off more American women than men are graduating with baccalaureate and post- baccalaureate degrees. More women are enrolled in law schools, journalism schools, and soon, they will exceed men in all professional schools, with the exception the dreary schools of engineering and business. At this rate, women will soon overtake men as the top wage earners. Evolution is leaving men behind.

Unless something drastic happens, like affirmative action for males, women that hope to find a man roughly their intellectual and financial equal will find their pickin's slim. Predictably feminists consider this turn of events a boon for civilization. Wendy McElroy, editor of ifeminists.com, plays into the school-girl fantasy of many of her progressive sisters in which women lawyers find fulfilling, long-term relationships in the rough arms of beefy construction workers. McElroy explains, "There is a 'marriage crisis' only for women and in-laws who demand an attorney or doctor for a husband and do not wish to welcome a plumber or mechanic into the family." Feminist writer Germaine "The Female Eunuch" Greer once acted on similar fantasies, and went as far as corralling a young stud. It scarcely took a Kreskin to predict their marriage would self-destruct within the month.

McElroy, who writes a column for FoxNews.com, reports being dismayed at finding educated women who are "genuinely horrified at the prospect of dealing with 'lesser' and 'lower' men as equals in their personal lives." But one of the findings of evolutionary psychology is that females of whatever species are hot-wired to find the best possible mate. When a woman looks for a lifelong companion she is genetically encouraged to look up, not down. University of Texas psychologist David Buss has shown female preference for successful males applies across no fewer than 37 cultures. Other studies reinforce the age-old notion that the more successful the man, the greater the demand.

Meanwhile a 1996 AGB McNair poll found that "one of the major reasons professional women gave for seeking men who were their equals or better was they wanted to ensure they had choices," reports Australia's The Age. "Women knew if they were the principal earners in the family they would be under pressure to keep working, even if they wanted to take time out to look after their own children. Marrying up ensured they would never face that difficult decision." That said, many modern women prefer to believe that they have evolved beyond primitive biology, that only a man's character, and not his ability to support a family is important. But her stubborn genes say otherwise.

McElroy insists that notions of "lesser" and "lower" should be defined according to a man's character, not his income or education, as if the latter had no effect on the former. Indeed, she fails to understand why marriage-minded Vassar girls do not slap on the war paint and head out for the tire repair shop in search of love. According to this logic, a charming, fun-loving tramp would make a more suitable marriage partner than a stoical chemist. Sadly a man's character does not pay the rent, nor does it afford good health care for your offspring or get them into Exeter, and it certainly doesn't help you move out of the slums of North St. Louis and into a relatively safe suburb.

But perhaps this is to be expected from a writer who believes that "marriage is a healthy institution that adapts quickly to circumstance." Healthy as compared to an African AIDS colony, perhaps. And as for marriage adapting, how does one explain the 40-plus percent failure rate of marriages? That's not adaptation, that's extinction.

Darwin would suggest that women will simply have to adapt to their new environment, a setting in which most of the male prospects, though fun-loving and impetuous, are intellectually and financially inferior. Predictably fun-loving and impetuous men do not make the best prospects for long-term relationships. But then perhaps women will adapt to short-term relationships, as have most breeds of dog. Men have already adapted to the end of housewifery, mostly by zoning out in front of the TV, until they are rudely awakened by the swat of the divorce papers.

Some enterprising young researcher should study the marriage and divorce rates of women who marry "beneath them" versus women who marry equally or above them. I suspect, as with Murray and Herrnstein's Bell Curve findings, that feminists will immediately seek to suppress the results.


Christopher Orlet is a freelance writer.
 


Stally
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Tony Ananda on Aug 25, 2004, 02:09 PM
... and Wendy's response.

http://www.ifeminists.net/interaction/forum/viewtopic.php?t=870
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Stallywood on Aug 25, 2004, 02:46 PM
Quote from: "Tony Ananda"
... and Wendy's response.

http://www.ifeminists.net/interaction/forum/viewtopic.php?t=870



Thanks. I will check it out.
Stally
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Stallywood on Aug 25, 2004, 02:53 PM
Okay checked it out. Women still marry up. Her reply in my opinion did not refute the article. Neither did the thread. Tony: what did you think?
Stally
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Mr Benn on Aug 25, 2004, 03:24 PM
I used to lurk around the iFeminist boards too.

But then I realised that it wasn't doing my blood pressure any good.

Think of it this way:

Imagine you are sitting in a car parked on a road on a steep hill. Suddenly, up the hill, the brakes fail on another parked car and it starts to roll down towards you.

What do you do?

The car is rolling down the hill, by the time it reaches your car it will have picked up enough speed that it will crash into your car with enough force to seriously damage it.

What do you do in this circumstance? You can't control the moving car. All you have control over is your car.

The answer is that you start to drive up the hill towards the car, and let it hit your car at a low speed before its picked up too much momentum.

Now this is EXACTLY the strategy that I beleive the iFeminist style feminists are employing. They can see the men's movement, or at least an anti-feminist backlash, starting to come down the road at them. They can't exactly make it disapear. but if they quickly move up and meet it half-way down the road then they can kill its momentum and stop it moving any further and doing their interests any serious damage.

What I'm saying here is that they want to keep their "Feminism" - whatever that means to them - and they don't like the idea that the lies of feminism being exposed mean that their "F word" is under threat.

So they are quickly moving a little way in our direction, just to kill our momentum.

But a little way is not enough for us.

Why should I kiss the feet of these women just because they have graciously deigned to offer me half of my rights as a Human back - on the provisio that I promise to be a good boy, and not ever threaten their interests again?

iFeminism is an ornimental garden. An artificial enclosed space that the women pretend is a true representation of the real world. It is a place where they can make-believe that their feminist conceits are really true after all. Where they can pretend things like women don't really desire a man of greater stature than themselves.

If you want the Tinkerbell of feminism to survive then clap your hands! Oh yes, say you beleive! If we all say it loud enough then it will be real!

The artifice is only maintained due to a very strict editorial policy on their discussion forum where descenting opinions are quickly edited out, stamped on hysterically; where threads are regularly frozen and moved around. And whatever is left is not nature, but an artificial, warped similacrum.

Its not a place for discussion, but a masterbatory last ditch effort to prop up a dying philosophical label that deserves to die like the foul creature that is it.

Not so much Tinkerbell, but more like Tinkerhell.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Aug 25, 2004, 03:31 PM
Yeah, what Mr. Benn said.

(Seriously - I just don't feel like writing or thinking anymore right now).
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Tony Ananda on Aug 26, 2004, 06:55 AM
>Okay checked it out. Women still marry up. Her reply in my opinion did not refute the article. Neither did the thread. Tony: what did you think?<

Guess what Stally? I didn't even read it.   Wendy's prose sounds like a monotone to me.  No height, no depth, just a noise in the background that one doesn't even notice after awhile.  After one paragraph of Wendy my eyes glaze over and I move on to something more stimulating to the nerve endings.

A few thoughts about Wendy, Cathy and Christina:

It was a common (mis) conception that, for example, a book like Who Stole Feminism would not and could not have even been published had it been written by a man.  If a man had written it would have been ignored, minimized, disregarded and mocked.  So up until about 2000 or 2001 women were the only ones given any kind of hearing about gender issues.  Today the situation is quite different.  There is more mainstream awareness that men have some legitimate gripes too.  Now even radfems have to pay lip service to things like women who CHOOSE to drop out of the workforce for their own reasons.  It is harder for them than it once was to make their case for discrimination stick in the court of public opinion.  

Wendy, Cathy and Christina have outlived their usefulness.  Men no longer need them as mouthpieces.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Stallywood on Aug 26, 2004, 01:38 PM
Quote from: "Tony Ananda"
>Okay checked it out. Women still marry up. Her reply in my opinion did not refute the article. Neither did the thread. Tony: what did you think?<

Guess what Stally? I didn't even read it.   Wendy's prose sounds like a monotone to me.  No height, no depth, just a noise in the background that one doesn't even notice after awhile.  After one paragraph of Wendy my eyes glaze over and I move on to something more stimulating to the nerve endings.

A few thoughts about Wendy, Cathy and Christina:

It was a common (mis) conception that, for example, a book like Who Stole Feminism would not and could not have even been published had it been written by a man.  If a man had written it would have been ignored, minimized, disregarded and mocked.  So up until about 2000 or 2001 women were the only ones given any kind of hearing about gender issues.  Today the situation is quite different.  There is more mainstream awareness that men have some legitimate gripes too.  Now even radfems have to pay lip service to things like women who CHOOSE to drop out of the workforce for their own reasons.  It is harder for them than it once was to make their case for discrimination stick in the court of public opinion.  

Wendy, Cathy and Christina have outlived their usefulness.  Men no longer need them as mouthpieces.




Not a problem Tony, if I seemed snide, its my fault. I pretty much think we are on the same page.
Stally
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Stallywood on Aug 26, 2004, 01:42 PM
Quote from: "Mr Benn"
I used to lurk around the iFeminist boards too.

But then I realised that it wasn't doing my blood pressure any good.

Think of it this way:

Imagine you are sitting in a car parked on a road on a steep hill. Suddenly, up the hill, the brakes fail on another parked car and it starts to roll down towards you.

What do you do?

The car is rolling down the hill, by the time it reaches your car it will have picked up enough speed that it will crash into your car with enough force to seriously damage it.

What do you do in this circumstance? You can't control the moving car. All you have control over is your car.

The answer is that you start to drive up the hill towards the car, and let it hit your car at a low speed before its picked up too much momentum.

Now this is EXACTLY the strategy that I beleive the iFeminist style feminists are employing. They can see the men's movement, or at least an anti-feminist backlash, starting to come down the road at them. They can't exactly make it disapear. but if they quickly move up and meet it half-way down the road then they can kill its momentum and stop it moving any further and doing their interests any serious damage.

What I'm saying here is that they want to keep their "Feminism" - whatever that means to them - and they don't like the idea that the lies of feminism being exposed mean that their "F word" is under threat.

So they are quickly moving a little way in our direction, just to kill our momentum.

But a little way is not enough for us.

Why should I kiss the feet of these women just because they have graciously deigned to offer me half of my rights as a Human back - on the provisio that I promise to be a good boy, and not ever threaten their interests again?

iFeminism is an ornimental garden. An artificial enclosed space that the women pretend is a true representation of the real world. It is a place where they can make-believe that their feminist conceits are really true after all. Where they can pretend things like women don't really desire a man of greater stature than themselves.

If you want the Tinkerbell of feminism to survive then clap your hands! Oh yes, say you beleive! If we all say it loud enough then it will be real!

The artifice is only maintained due to a very strict editorial policy on their discussion forum where descenting opinions are quickly edited out, stamped on hysterically; where threads are regularly frozen and moved around. And whatever is left is not nature, but an artificial, warped similacrum.

Its not a place for discussion, but a masterbatory last ditch effort to prop up a dying philosophical label that deserves to die like the foul creature that is it.

Not so much Tinkerbell, but more like Tinkerhell.



Now that is a great analogy.  :-)

Stally
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Tony Ananda on Aug 26, 2004, 02:24 PM
No, no, Stally.  I didn't think you were being snide at all.  I wasn't trying to 'put you in your place' or anything like that either.  On the Internet we lose the inflections and intonations of our voices.  We become... monotones.  Yes we are on the same page.

Good analogy, Mr. Benn.
Title: Wendy's response make little sense
Post by: Thomas on Aug 29, 2004, 01:06 PM
I don't know if anyone else has pointed this out, but Wendy chooses to look at only one side of an example that she gives to refute the claim that many, perhaps most, women will continue to marry up or not at all.

She states, "For one thing, general comments about evolution indicate little about the prudence or incidence of specific behaviors today. Human beings have evolved to eat as much calorie-rich fatty food as possible to store as energy. That doesn't mean it is a recommended or even a much pursued behavior in our culture. Indeed, much of our culture is organized around eschewing that evolutionary tendency."

While there is, indeed, an element of health-consciousness in our culture, there is also an epidemic of obesity.  Our situation has changed to the point where we no longer need to store as many calories as in the past by consuming large quantities of fatty foods.  Nevertheless, overeating such foods is "pursued behavior in our culture," and for that matter around the world, to such an extent that the World Health Organization warns about an escalating global epidemic of obesity.  (See this page: http://www.who.int/nut/obs.htm.)

It may not be in the best interests of women or society for women, on the whole, to continue to insist on marrying up, but the example she gives of fatty foods, combined with repeated studies and warnings by the WHO, suggest that a great many will continue to do so, if they have in fact evolved to do so.

To imply that things will be fine, when women are vastly more educated than men, to imply that women will marry and take good care of their ignorant husbands, who took up the hammer and saw after dropping out of high school, is to cavalierly minimize a growing crisis that men face.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Stallywood on Aug 29, 2004, 03:24 PM
I think I got the gist of what you are referring to when I read Wendy's thread. I am just not as good as you are at putting it into words.  Good analysis.
Stally
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Róss on Oct 17, 2004, 12:15 PM
Here is an interesting summary of some recent postings to the iFeminist board:

http://www.annieeblackheart.com/index.php?showtopic=499&st=0&#entry4506

I know that MRAs hang on Wendy because a woman seems to actually see men's points of view, sometimes, but her behavior on her message boards speaks volumes.

She sometimes taunts the men and then deletes her own posts.  She allows the ego-driven Kirsten her nonsense and insults against men.  She states something and asks for any counterpoints that could possibly exist and then strong-arms the people, deletes their posts and ultimately bans them if they really politely answer with something she doesn't like.  She falls back on "we're in our living room here, so just leave if you don't follow our rules" but out of the other side of her mouth she proclaims freedom of posting.  She can be an extremely nasty person to anyone who disagrees with her.

I can't come to any other conclusion than the fact that she is getting money with her "siding-with-men" shtick and that's her reason for it as an otherwise very mediocre writer.  Because a few comments I have seen from her, which she conveniently deleted, lead me to believe that she aggressively hates MRAs.  Or at the very least, she wants to be the boss of them.  Not a nice person.  Join the iFeminist boards and try to say anything, very politely and with statistics, that she doesn't like and you may see what I mean.  The big problem is that the tactics are underhanded strong-arming, taunting and only then the ultimate banning by her lap-dog Brad.  She isn't obvious, and she changes posts, deletes posts and taunts for certain posts, and then deletes her own, as a form of tactics.  If you don't believe me, sign on and watch the fun.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Stallywood on Oct 17, 2004, 02:37 PM
Brad and Kirsten are two of the main reasons I left.
Stally
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Titurel on Oct 17, 2004, 07:09 PM
Yes, we believe you.  Discussing different points of view isn't the same as taking a shit in someone else's living room, an analogy often repeated on that board.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Double Jeopardy on Oct 27, 2004, 10:04 AM
Speaking of the Ifem board I was just browsing there and I noticed this thread about the OffOurBacks feminazi queens trying to draw the attention of men because the root of the patriarchy threat starts with men and ends with men, according to them anyway.  A member there posted this

"
I have to say, when I read that article or the ones linked to the "Off Our Backs" posting above, it turns my stomach.

The fact that these women have the backing of the law in many instances makes me want to steer very clear of any woman in the US outside of any professional interaction.

In California, domestic violence is specifically legally defined to be a crime against women or children, not men.

Young boys raped by older women are liable for child support.

It's taken a class action lawsuit nationwide just to get the general public aware that noncustodial parents aren't afforded constitutional rights.

Given the rampant anti-male bias in this country, what man in his right mind would get married or live with a woman in this legal and social environment?

I have two daughters who depend on me. I hope their generation has more humanity and wisdom than mine.
   

I take it this guy is speaking out of his frustration of the biased laws that, as we all well know, hang men out to dry without provocation. The laws ARE shifted in favor of women no matter if they are all like that or not. It's like being bitten and watching people being bitten by sharks at a beach, are YOU going to be apprehensive about swimming there or do you suppose you should just buck up, do the PC correct thing and take each shark as an individual and hope it isn't going to get hungry? Here is the response he got from a woman (Kirsten) who has quite a posting history there.

Can you please wear a sign that says something like,

"Stay away from me if you are female- I am unable to differentiate between individuals."

or whatever sentiment would be appropriate so that we women know not to bother trying to get to know you either?

Thanks.



Now, before anyone gets their haunches up, this isn't about that site in particular but about the response. This is the shit men are up against everyday, you are not allowed to be afraid, apprehensive or speak out about it even. This is the same shiftless back you into a corner rhetorical silver tongued tactics that got men backed into the corner we are in today. This is supposed to be coming from someone who is offering an olive branch to men, to equal the playing field for both genders? BULL. it's backhanded feminist politics and nothing more.

Maybe he should wear a sign as she said and all the women can wear one that says, "I've thought about it, and I do or do not want accountability for my actions so think about this before marrying me".

I mean Jesus H. Criminey on a runaway pogo-sitck, doesn't this crap EVER end? :roll:
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Stallywood on Oct 27, 2004, 12:46 PM
The thing is, that not only can she post s#$t like that. But if the initial poster fights back he will be crapped on by Brad and others on the board. This is why I quit.  And no, it never ends on that site. Especially when she will be the first to cry about being a staunch supporter of men and everyone will come to her rescue. (If the poster decides to defend himself)
Stally
Title: ME TOO :)
Post by: hurkle on Oct 27, 2004, 01:11 PM
Glad I found this forum. I initially found the ifeminists site, but found that there was less support for men's rights than I initially thought.  

Double Jeapardy hits the nail on the head with his example. Yet it wasn't until I read this thread that I realized why I had just left their forum.

As far as the enemy of my enemy idea goes, that may make them an ally, but not necessarily my friend at all.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: typhonblue on Oct 27, 2004, 01:20 PM
Quote

Can you please wear a sign that says something like,

"Stay away from me if you are female- I am unable to differentiate between individuals."

or whatever sentiment would be appropriate so that we women know not to bother trying to get to know you either?

Thanks.



How come women have to be treated on a case by case basis yet men can be tarred as a group?

I mean, really! A lot of laws have come about because "men are the only ones who are agressive" (ie. DV laws), "men are the only ones who rape", "men don't have emotions therefore they can't be raped"... Plus all the generalizations about men that inform social behavior, the list goes on.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Oct 27, 2004, 01:27 PM
Kirstens main trick is to simply identify a statement she doesn't like and then make endless requests ("Please provide data and links on that", "Please compile all references to that, summarize and then present them to me coherently", "please do tons of work for me that won't matter anyway").  If you swamp someone in these requests, and never listen to what he IS saying, that will effectively shut him down.  

But the funny thing is that I have seen some people give very sound, well-thought-out posts complete with references to answer her.  And then she simply ignores them and continues with her manic posting.

I think she just wants to "win" all the time.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Dr. Feelgood on Oct 27, 2004, 04:34 PM
I have noticed that too about her and a handful of others who hitch a ride on her skirt. From what I have seen there so far she and her team decide who posts, what they post and how. Gee-just like Ms magazine where all the men are told to piss off. How.Nice.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: daksdaddy on Oct 27, 2004, 09:20 PM
Quote
Wendy has done a great deal to raise awareness about men's issues. My hat is off to her for her contribution to our cause. Let any man here who is critical of her who thinks he has done more for our cause than her step forward and tell us what he has accomplished.


Dr, Evil
     What? "exactly", has "Wendy" accomplished?

Just Curious.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: daksdaddy on Oct 27, 2004, 09:28 PM
Quote
Quote:
Wendy has done a great deal to raise awareness about men's issues. My hat is off to her for her contribution to our cause. Let any man here who is critical of her who thinks he has done more for our cause than her step forward and tell us what he has accomplished.


Dr, Evil
What? "exactly", has "Wendy" accomplished?

Just Curious.


Besides being published in a feminist controlled media!
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: kal147 on Oct 27, 2004, 09:40 PM
Galt Wrote:

Quote
Kirstens main trick is to simply identify a statement she doesn't like and then make endless requests ("Please provide data and links on that", "Please compile all references to that, summarize and then present them to me coherently",


Galt, if you are going to criticise her -- please provide data and links on that, compile all references, summarize, and then present them to me coherently. :wink:
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: LSBeene on Oct 27, 2004, 10:00 PM
KAL,

I love ya man, that was a twisted post!

I am more than willing to defend Wendy.  Ask questions, make me defend my position, take me to task ..

But understand this .. I don't support Wendy blindly nor without reason.  She has defended fathers in articles, decried unfair "rape shield laws", made enemies with NOW (that alone earns her points!) over issues, made the public aware of men's issues, and, while not revealing info she gave me via personal E-mails, I'll just say that quite a few of the feminazis have tried to make her personal and professional life miserable.  

Hell, even as an MRA posting on sites (MS maggotzine was my fav - *sigh*) I have had 3 attempts to derail my LIFE by whack-jobs for daring to *gasp* disagree and debunk!

Wendy has had many many attempts made to f*ck her life into the toilet by these blindsiding hate filled snot spitting harpies.

Yet she continues to advocate for equality and fairness towards men ....

WHERE is the problem?  Because she has the word "feminist" in her site title?!  C'mon guys, that's a bit shallow.  And we're better than that.

Read her past editorials.  I've read quite a few.  They're quite fair.

Steven
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: kal147 on Oct 27, 2004, 10:25 PM
Quote
I love ya man, that was a twisted post!


Yeah, I can be a little rekalcitrant. :wink:

I agree with you about Wendy. She's stuck her neck out and gotten a lot of grief. Some may not like her forum, I'm well aware of the politics and licenses, but so what. Her forum serves a purpose, ill will is not one of them.

I don't know why some here hate her so. She's done so much.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: LSBeene on Oct 27, 2004, 10:41 PM
Quote from: "kal147"


Yeah, I can be a little rekalcitrant. :wink:



You're incourageable.  

Steven
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Oct 27, 2004, 11:24 PM
<<Galt, if you are going to criticise her -- please provide data and links on that, compile all references, summarize, and then present them to me coherently.>>

LOL  OK, I take it back if take-backs are allowed.  Or I could point to Ross's link above or Double Jeopardy's post above in a general sense, but maybe they're appeals to authority or red herrings.

My overall take on the iFeminist board is that I used to really be in agreement with Wendy's articles on the Fox News website, but I have seen a different side of her (and her "clique" - i.e. Kirsten, Bryan etc.) on her message boards.  But I'll quit ruffling feathers now.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: LSBeene on Oct 27, 2004, 11:26 PM
Galt?!

You ruffle feathers ... YOU?!  ... nooooooo, say it isn't so  :shock:

(just being me!)

Steven
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Oct 27, 2004, 11:33 PM
<<You ruffle feathers ... YOU?! ... nooooooo, say it isn't so>>

Clearly a straw man / ad hominem / diversionary red herring.  Besides, please post linked opinions to several accredited behavioral experts who can support that statement (so that I can then turn around and cite "appeal to authority").

See, maybe I am getting into the iFeminist swing of things.  It just takes time for me to come around.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Dr. Feelgood on Oct 28, 2004, 12:58 AM
Quote from: "Galt"
<<Galt, if you are going to criticise her -- please provide data and links on that, compile all references, summarize, and then present them to me coherently.>>

LOL  OK, I take it back if take-backs are allowed.  Or I could point to Ross's link above or Double Jeopardy's post above in a general sense, but maybe they're appeals to authority or red herrings.

My overall take on the iFeminist board is that I used to really be in agreement with Wendy's articles on the Fox News website, but I have seen a different side of her (and her "clique" - i.e. Kirsten, Bryan etc.) on her message boards.  But I'll quit ruffling feathers now.


There is a different side to her, why is that I wonder?
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Double Jeopardy on Oct 28, 2004, 04:12 AM
From what I have seen on that forum there is a difference and maybe Ross has the answer as to why. Galt I missed the point where you suggest my post maybe was an appeal to authority, Kirsten nor Wendy are any authority over me. Am I taking what you posted wrong? Im trying to understand where you are coming from.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: dr e on Oct 28, 2004, 04:17 AM
Daksdaddy - Wendy is the only nationally syndicated columnist in the United States who is airing our viewpoints.  That in itself is quite an accomplishment.  She has been voicing our message for years in her fox columns.
Here is an archive of her columns over the last 2 years.

http://www.opinionet.com/archive.php?author=Wendy%20McElroy

Does she agree with our ideas 100%?  Probably not.  But in a world where we have no voice we need to appreciate the little that we have going for us.

Look at her web site this morning and look at the headlines:

Quote
n Kobe Case, Accuser Is Rightly Identified by Wendy McElroy
It is time either to identify neither or both parties in sexual assault cases, especially when those cases are conducted in civil court. Wendy McElroy identifies Kobe Bryant's accuser.

Rise of the Feminist Propaganda State by Carey Roberts
Carey Roberts concludes his five-part series by observing that the media have fully assimilated feminist propaganda -- including a biased meaning of the word "equality."

The Invisible Victims of Domestic Violence by Tom James
October is Domestic Violence Awareness Month. Tom James reminds us that half of the problem remains unseen: the male victims of domestic violence.

Feminist Ex-ABA Leader Slams Shared Custody, Fathers' Movement with Glenn Sacks
An audio link to Glenn Sacks' latest radio show.


Looks like a male friendly place to me.  She is also aligned with Glenn Sacks, mensactivism.org and Scott Garman.  Scott is a productive activist who is also on the Men's Commission in New Hampshire.  He thinks enough of Wendy to align his site to hers.

It seems that most of the criticism of Wendy is connected to her running the board at ifeminism.  I have never gone there and can't comment.  She may be a real bitch on that board I have no idea.  If so, my condolences to those of you who were fried. I am sure the world is populated by some who think I am a real bastard for the way I moderate this board.  It comes with the territory.

It does concern me that there are some among us who have taken very little action for our cause but are highly critical of others who have in fact taken a stand.  I would suggest you do something productive.  Make a sign and go to your local courthouse and stand in front of the building.  Write letters.  Join NCFM.  Visit your representatives.  Attend the DV committee in your county and ask what is being done for male victims.  Demand that a men's commission be started in your state.  etc. etc.  We need people who can critique Wendy and people like her but we also need people who are willing to take action and take a stand.  We put on a successful Men's Rights Congress last June drawing men and women from around the world to talk about men's rights and to lobby on capitol hill.  Not one person from this board came.  Not one.  Some of the feminists who lurk here claim that we are a bunch of whiners.  Prove them wrong.

This scenario reminds me of a town that has a river that is about to overflow its banks and flood Main Street.  Some of the townspeople, and some from another town are strategically placing bags of sand to stave off the flood.  While they are doing this some others are pointing fingers at those placing the bags complaining that those doing the work don't care enough about the town or the flood.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Oct 28, 2004, 04:42 AM
<<Galt I missed the point where you suggest my post maybe was an appeal to authority, Kirsten nor Wendy are any authority over me. Am I taking what you posted wrong? Im trying to understand where you are coming from.>>

I meant that MY pointing to Ross or you was an "appeal to authority" or a red herring.  I know it's really not, but I guess I didn't take this all that seriously and I wanted to throw in some "logical fallacies" that get thrown around on that board.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Double Jeopardy on Oct 28, 2004, 05:29 AM
Being that I am somewhat new here Dr. Evil please allow me to voice my opinion on this matter. Wendy does write many good things in favor of men, she has made effort to present the public at large en masse to hear what men have been through and why there needs to be a change. I cannot argue that in my brightest hour and anyone who tried would be a fool. This does not blind people to the degree that when they see men speak up on her forum they are pretty much corralled by the clique who by in large contend a change is needed and men need not say how, but be told how. I know the message board is not the same as her articles or her political views, the problem with that is what you read and what is tolerated and supported for the clique does not align with her political views on the subject of men or otherwise. That is the whole point. This is a concern for those who see this discrepancy, not just people who appeal to authority but men who are reading and watching what is coming from the Ifeminist corner. Roy has suggested there is a peach in this for Wendy and that political motivation and other perks come from her stand for men. When applying this support to men on her forum she has often failed miserably, men are curious as to why this is and are quite aware of it. I am not trying to argue or bash Wendy, just address something that is evident to many. On the topic of involvement with the meeting in DC, I am not aware of this and had I been when it happened I may very well have gone. This is not to say I will not next year as well, why others on this board did not or maybe could not go I don't know. I would also shy against telling people to do something or they have no voice, sometimes speaking up are the first steps to great things, we should try not to shut people down. Wendy started out by speaking up, and the people who told her to zip it where radical feminists. When men speak up and give sound arguments on her forum they get the can. Just food for thought.  We do need every bit of help we can get, we need to take it anywhere anyway we can. Some of us can address these issues on many levels, some of us can also watch our backs, if the Ifeminist movement is a forked tongued serpent, I would rather have my fellow MRA's aware than blind or star stricken by what is on the surface. You do not need to apologize for what happens on her forum which, by the way lest we forget, is a soapbox for Ifeminism, in fact one poster noted clearly yesterday that if you are not like minded with those on that board you should leave. Reminds one of the now defunct Ms. Magazine forum does it not? What I have seen on that forum isn't so male friendly the majority of the time, and those who are male unfriendly and uncivil are propped up and praised. There is a definitive pattern to the who gets banned there too - and it is men, people who post here even.

Someone also asked a while back on a thread what the people of the forum do for the cause of fighting gender inequity and discrimination against males. I started my efforts on the home front, I have a daughter who is a staunch anti feminist much to the liking of her Daddy. She has learned that she is equal to all men and that there is very much a difference between man and woman and those differences make each of us special in our right. She values her father, her brother and all men for being male, not pantified male, but MALE. She has no chip on her shoulder and does not pander to the victimology lifestyle so many of our women take refuge in. That is in my opinion the most important place to start, in the home where it breeds.

When I see a bigoted anti male poster, sign, or even a bumper sticker on a car, I speak out, I tell it like it is. If I can have that piece of trash removed, I make all effort to see it is done. If there is a teacher at school who uses her position as a soapbox to spout feminism and it's hate filled ideology I speak up. I called for a meeting with the school board against a teacher who consistently used anti male slurs in my sons classes. I had to pull teeth to get the board to listen to me but in the end they conceded with prejudice that gender politicking has no place in the classroom because of its obvious negative impact on boys directly and girls indirectly who perceive this behavior as acceptable. Every time I come across a woman with a chip on her shoulder I counter every statement with facts and I tactfully denounce every manic assertion made which comes frothing out of their mouths, all of which is directly quoted from the books of Mary Daly and the like.

I have proven many a feminist wrong, Dr. Evil. And with that I will be watching the Ifeminist movement and those who are behind it.

The trouble with this long and hard battle Dr, Evil is that all women, yes, all women, they are comforted with the benefits and covenant of chivalry. This is the biggest hurdle we as men have to overcome, our biggest handicap. I wouldn't let any woman have that edge...it is time to make the term equality stand up to it's own merit.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Double Jeopardy on Oct 28, 2004, 05:30 AM
Quote from: "Galt"
<<Galt I missed the point where you suggest my post maybe was an appeal to authority, Kirsten nor Wendy are any authority over me. Am I taking what you posted wrong? Im trying to understand where you are coming from.>>

I meant that MY pointing to Ross or you was an "appeal to authority" or a red herring.  I know it's really not, but I guess I didn't take this all that seriously and I wanted to throw in some "logical fallacies" that get thrown around on that board.


Now I see what you meant. Im sorry, I guess I shouldn't post until I have my morning coffee. :?
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Tony Ananda on Oct 28, 2004, 11:49 AM
Dr. Evil, that is a very weak objection to criticism of one of your allies that amounts to, "Don't bitch if you haven't done anything, preferably more than the target of said criticism has."  You have no credentials based on the price tag attached to your activities in favor of the men's movement.  The barrel of the misandry gun is aimed directly at all males whatever they may have failed to do. That's my badge of rank, Dr. You cannot minimize any man's voice with your petty measuring stick even though you think you can.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: dr e on Oct 28, 2004, 12:01 PM
Tony - I am not minimizing anyone.  I am challanging you and all others on this board to get  up and do something.  If you see there is a problem then become a part of the solution and take some action.  Complaining has its time and its purpose but we need more than that at this point.  

If you are not getting off your ass and doing something then you are part of the problem.  You will be hearing this from me.  If you don't like it go someplace else.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: dr e on Oct 28, 2004, 12:09 PM
DJ - I hear what you are saying about the forum and the ways that men are handled there.  As I said, I have no experience on that forum and don't know a thing about it or the clique that seems to run things.  I can also understand that some have been scorched by whoever is running that board.  My experience with them is simply her articles which in my estimation have done our movement quite a bit of good.

Sounds like you are doing a good job as a dad!  Good stuff.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Tony Ananda on Oct 28, 2004, 12:21 PM
Dr., callow one-upmanship will get you nowhere, which is exactly what you were doing.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: dr e on Oct 28, 2004, 12:31 PM
You can call it what you want Tony but I am tired of paying for people to simply complain and not take action.  It's time.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Double Jeopardy on Oct 28, 2004, 12:33 PM
Quote from: "Dr Evil"
DJ - I hear what you are saying about the forum and the ways that men are handled there.  As I said, I have no experience on that forum and don't know a thing about it or the clique that seems to run things.  I can also understand that some have been scorched by whoever is running that board.  My experience with them is simply her articles which in my estimation have done our movement quite a bit of good.

Sounds like you are doing a good job as a dad!  Good stuff.



Thanks Dr.Evil, I do try in my own way to make a difference.


I wanted to also add that no one is suggesting you should answer for what goes on over at that forum, it isn't your responsibility to either justify or correct it. You have no hand in what goes on there. My concern is that on the surface the Ifeminist group, or Wendy McElroy rather, has done good. Ifeminism as a group, the people on that forum who represent what Ifeminism is and the backing they receive from it's founder is very suspicious. It just smacks of hypocrisy and back door leeching on mens issues like a television evangelist who preaches one thing and practices another. I suspect if the attention to the writing and articles and news coverage were to stop, so would the concern. This is something I believe is evident that needs attention and a watchful eye for the good of men and women who truly want equality amoung genders without blurring the vision of what being a man and a woman is. It isn't a attack on Wendy as a person but focusing on the discrepancies where they lay where mens issues and misandry meld into something not rejected but in fact embraced on her forum.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: dr e on Oct 28, 2004, 12:40 PM
I agree with you DJ.  It is well worth keeping an eye on.  

I'm not sure why you think I may be feeling responsible for the actions taken at that forum.  I don't.  Not to worry.  My point was only that I didn't know a thing about it and only had familiarity with the articles.
Title: iFeminism
Post by: rantmeister on Oct 28, 2004, 03:20 PM
Not to prove you wrong, Dr. E, but to remind you, I was at the Men's Rights Congress in DC last June. Of course, I haven't been a large presence here on your forum.

My take on iFeminism is that it has a very positive slant on men's rights, and for that Wendy deserves a lot of credit. From my perusing on the iFeminist forum, the impression I've gotten is that men who criticize feminism are looked upon as having less of a right to express such views as women. That is, women can be anti-feminist because they know feminism better. Men who are anti-feminist are anti-woman, and need to restrain themselves. I think that's the basis of the comments we are hearing on this thread. Women are allowed to express frustration with male behavior, but men are still oppressors of women (thus, the name "feminism" is retained at iFeminism) and as such, men are not in a position to criticize without some measure of female filtering and approval.

There does seem to be tolerance for standard feminist viewpoints on the iFeminist forum - even while those views are refuted in articles by Wendy and Carey Roberts. This has led me to conclude that iFeminism is the Bahai version of feminism (as I will state in my upcoming book.)
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: dr e on Oct 28, 2004, 03:29 PM
Hi Rantmeister - Thanks for the correction.  Actually we picked up a couple of members who went to the Congress and then started posting here.  Thomas is one and I think you are another.  Glad you are here.

It has been interesting to hear the contradictions of the way that men have been treated on the ifem board and the overt message in wendy's columns.  Very odd.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Oct 28, 2004, 03:47 PM
I think that down the road someone should do a screen capture when she's ticked at yet another man there. She deletes a lot of her posts, but what I saw one night makes me really wonder why her articles are so different than her (apparently) real thoughts.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Dr. Feelgood on Oct 28, 2004, 04:21 PM
If you follow that link Roy put in his post a page or so back you can see one instance of her deleting posts. To delete a post and replace it with an accusation and then ban the guy before he can respond is sneaky and underhanded. I don't care what she thinks of the guy she banned but it tells a bigger story what she thinks of the rest of the people there by playing deceitful little games like that. If the intention is to announce to the world you're a liar and cant back up your shortcomings, she has been batting home runs straight out of the park.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Double Jeopardy on Oct 29, 2004, 04:22 AM
Here is yet another example of misandry that is ever so popular over there. Tell me this doesn't smack of Ms.

http://www.ifeminists.net/interaction/forum/viewtopic.php?p=16642#16642

Quote
Kirsten wrote:
I largely avoid Oregon. I guess the indignity of being considered too incompetent to pump my own gas correctly in Oregon (never mind that I seem to do just fine both north and south of there) just gets to me  


Erin wrote:
No, no... you're supposed to be feeling warm fuzzies because you're providing someone with a job, even if it's a job you can do all by yourself.
[/b]

Now I wonder if these two feel the same about eating lunch at their favorite local eatery when someone makes them a sandwich they can easily make by themselves? This is what I was talking about with that place, you could have visited the ms boards anytime and read this on a number of threads there. I guess the service industry is run by the patriarchy too and gas pumping Joe down at the local filling station is co conspirator. When people click on that link to Ifememinism to see what the buzz is all about, that is what they will get. And Wendy McElroy encourages these two in particular.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Gerard Velthuis on Oct 29, 2004, 09:26 AM
Quote
If you are not getting off your ass and doing something then you are part of the problem.


Exactly, it is time for some action!
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Gerard Velthuis on Oct 29, 2004, 09:29 AM
Quote
Tony - I am not minimizing anyone. I am challanging you and all others on this board to get up and do something.


Right, enough about the complaining, how about some action??
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Double Jeopardy on Oct 29, 2004, 09:37 AM
I believe there is room for both. I sure don't want to tell men out there who are being rung around the neck with the noose of misandry in their marriage or relationships to quit the bitching unless he can show how many times his activist card has been punched. Feminists do that regularly as it is when they say "stop the whining". Think about it.
Title: Re: iFeminism
Post by: Double Jeopardy on Oct 29, 2004, 09:56 AM
Quote from: "rantmeister"
Not to prove you wrong, Dr. E, but to remind you, I was at the Men's Rights Congress in DC last June. Of course, I haven't been a large presence here on your forum.

My take on iFeminism is that it has a very positive slant on men's rights, and for that Wendy deserves a lot of credit. From my perusing on the iFeminist forum, the impression I've gotten is that men who criticize feminism are looked upon as having less of a right to express such views as women. That is, women can be anti-feminist because they know feminism better. Men who are anti-feminist are anti-woman, and need to restrain themselves. I think that's the basis of the comments we are hearing on this thread. Women are allowed to express frustration with male behavior, but men are still oppressors of women (thus, the name "feminism" is retained at iFeminism) and as such, men are not in a position to criticize without some measure of female filtering and approval.

There does seem to be tolerance for standard feminist viewpoints on the iFeminist forum - even while those views are refuted in articles by Wendy and Carey Roberts. This has led me to conclude that iFeminism is the Bahai version of feminism (as I will state in my upcoming book.)




That is what I meant when I said that the women can be against parts of the misandry and discrimination against men, but men need not have a voice, if anything is going to be done the women decide what and when. There is no question that these are nothing more than fence riding gender feminists who see the end to the gravy train and are trying to steer a smooth course for their cysters. I have more than once seen posts where Wendy and others have said ,"I am a feminist, after all" not " I am a Ifeminist". As a matter of fact one just posted that just yesterday. Rantmeister has seen what many men see when visiting that forum, that forum is a representation for Ifeminism which is as Rantmeister said, a Bahai version of feminism
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: The Biscuit Queen on Oct 29, 2004, 10:32 AM
Quote
Stratcat: You asked what my reaction to the article is. Extremely mixed....no clear agreement. The part I zeroed in on in terms of sympathetizing is how work-a-day parents -- and two-incomes is no longer a CHOICE for many but an economic necessity -- are experiencing a backlash of fear in leaving their children with almost *anyone*. I think we have become a paranoid society and the paranoia is not benign but palpably harmful. Frankly, that was why I posted it. I hoped for a discussion on that theme. I did not adequately assess how hostile to women some posters would become.

On a personal level...I argue on a daily basis for the equal rights of men because it is a matter of simple justice. I read posts here, however, and I wonder if I am advancing a cause that will gleefully use the law to harm innocent women for the joy of harming *a woman* -- any woman. Such posts make me doubt that I am arguing on the correct side. It is not that I believe the other side to be correct...but silence or changing the subject is always an option.

Perhaps it is good to have doubts about your own positions; perhaps it keeps you honest. But it makes me feel quite literally ill inside that I may be arguing for a day that empowers people (men) who will be every bit as vicious and unjust as those I currently oppose.

So that's what I think Stratcat. The article is one with which I agree and disagree on a sentence-by-sentence basis. I posted it because it was thought-provoking.

Wendy McElroy


This was in a thread about an article concerning men's rights activists blaming women.

This is why I am so careful about ranting against women. It is damaging, and if it is making women like McElroy reconsider, who had openly supported men, what is it making women and men who have not decided yet think? We all need to be very careful what we are saying and what we are fighting for.

Now it is hard to assess the thread, because some posts have been deleted. She is sensitive to misogyny. This means we need to be even more careful if we want to break into mainstream.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: neonsamurai on Oct 29, 2004, 10:54 AM
I agree with the Queen of Biscuits.

It's knowing how hard to push and when. The tide is turning, but when men are becoming MRA's for the simple reason that they hate women it's counter productive. To be honest I'd want to distance myself from that sort of person.

We should count ourselves lucky that in the UK we've got Bob Geldof on our side and not Harold Shipman!

What the feminists are looking in for is that angle. If they can turn it around to the fact that we're all posting on these boards because we hate women and people believe them then we lose credibility. The trouble is they'll have to look damn hard to do that and even then it'll pale in comparisson to their own behaviours.

I still remember the good old days of the 'Ms' forum and some of the spiteful hate they used to spew out. Ifeminists pales in comparrisson to them. From what I've read Wendy seems very sensitive to most generalisations and is trying to stop her board from decending into anarchy.

I don't read it very often though. I prefer to troll the IMDB boards.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Stallywood on Oct 29, 2004, 12:21 PM
Quote from: "kal147"
Galt Wrote:

Quote
Kirstens main trick is to simply identify a statement she doesn't like and then make endless requests ("Please provide data and links on that", "Please compile all references to that, summarize and then present them to me coherently",


Galt, if you are going to criticise her -- please provide data and links on that, compile all references, summarize, and then present them to me coherently. :wink:



:wink: :wink:
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: LSBeene on Oct 29, 2004, 01:35 PM
Quote from: "neonsamurai"
I agree with the Queen of Biscuits.

It's knowing how hard to push and when. The tide is turning, but when men are becoming MRA's for the simple reason that they hate women it's counter productive. To be honest I'd want to distance myself from that sort of person.   .......

[snip]

.......      If they can turn it around to the fact that we're all posting on these boards because we hate women and people believe them then we lose credibility.     ........

[snip]

.......    I still remember the good old days of the 'Ms' forum and some of the spiteful hate they used to spew out. Ifeminists pales in comparrisson to them. From what I've read Wendy seems very sensitive to most generalisations and is trying to stop her board from decending into anarchy.   ....

[snip]



I quite agree.

When I came to many men's boards I was an man who had bottled, suppressed, and had to swallow the pain, anger, and inequity that I had gone through due to my being falsely accused of rape.

I spewed out some pretty angry stuff.  I learned to copy some of the styles of my ever-changing favorite posters/writers (Fred Reed, Gonzo, KAL, Marc, Glenn .... etc) until I found my own style of writing.

But, every now and then I firmly stick my foot in my mouth, and in doing so, both as an MRA, article writer, letter writer, and a Moderator here ... I damaged the movement.  

It takes a while for men who come here to go through the stages of uncorking that anger and then getting to the next step.

God knows I took long enough.

I agree we must have voices of moderation.  Should we be less strident in our demands for fairness?  NO!!  But, how we present it (as evidenced by feminazis lies packaged in nice pretty pink bows being accepted!) is a big part of how long we will have to work before real change happens.

To quote a famous brit during a time of war:

Quote from: "Winston Churchill"
I can promise you nothing but blood, sweat, toil, and tears.


But in the end, our British cousins persevered.

btw .....

:D   HAPPY FRIDAY!!!  :P

Steven
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Dr. Feelgood on Oct 29, 2004, 01:58 PM
I have also run into that excuse many a time. Not all men are angry, just speaking up, and when they do they get this line of "Know how hard to push, don't use mysogyny". Face it, all you have to do is look beyond your alliances and read the damn board, it isn't rocket science. It isn't hard to see the women there are using plenty of misandry and un civil like candor to present themselves, men walk on eggshells there or get booted. The ones who do not get booted are ones who cluck in agreement and rarely post until they do cluck in agreement.

It is such a sad thing to see this excuse, because that is what it is. If there is evidence that the person in that thread was being angry or pushing wee bitty buttons why would she delete it and leave her rant? Sometimes I have to wonder, are men ever allowed ANY grace?
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: LSBeene on Oct 29, 2004, 02:01 PM
Dr. Feelgood,

I say this with no sarcasm, but only honest curiousity ...

Ummm,

WHAT were you trying to say in that last post?  I really didn't get it.  Could you plz elaborate, clarify, and/or help out the blond guy who's a little lost?

Steven
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Dr. Feelgood on Oct 29, 2004, 02:03 PM
I edited it LS Beene, I meant no sarcams either, just pure frustration.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: The Gonzman on Oct 29, 2004, 02:46 PM
Quote from: "The Biscuit Queen"
Quote
Stratcat: You asked what my reaction to the article is. Extremely mixed....no clear agreement. The part I zeroed in on in terms of sympathetizing is how work-a-day parents -- and two-incomes is no longer a CHOICE for many but an economic necessity -- are experiencing a backlash of fear in leaving their children with almost *anyone*. I think we have become a paranoid society and the paranoia is not benign but palpably harmful. Frankly, that was why I posted it. I hoped for a discussion on that theme. I did not adequately assess how hostile to women some posters would become.

On a personal level...I argue on a daily basis for the equal rights of men because it is a matter of simple justice. I read posts here, however, and I wonder if I am advancing a cause that will gleefully use the law to harm innocent women for the joy of harming *a woman* -- any woman. Such posts make me doubt that I am arguing on the correct side. It is not that I believe the other side to be correct...but silence or changing the subject is always an option.

Perhaps it is good to have doubts about your own positions; perhaps it keeps you honest. But it makes me feel quite literally ill inside that I may be arguing for a day that empowers people (men) who will be every bit as vicious and unjust as those I currently oppose.

So that's what I think Stratcat. The article is one with which I agree and disagree on a sentence-by-sentence basis. I posted it because it was thought-provoking.

Wendy McElroy



The problem is that if such things are straightened out and the playing field leveled it *will* hurt some women.

When men are considered as equal parents before the law, there's going to be women not automatically getting the kids in a divorce.

Women will wind up being drafted.

Women will no longer get the affirmative action pass.

When due process is restored to men, it means that a lot or real rapists and abusers aren't going to get convicted - maybe not even charged because the case is weak, and a "he said she said" thing.

Many women on the CS/Alimony gravy train will have to get real jobs - on  the zero skill set that they have thus far skated through life on.

Two models exist for male and female interaction.  One is the "lady/Gentleman" model and the other is the "person/person" model.

In the lady gentleman model, both sides have certain privileges and perogatives, and with them restrictions on behavior.  In the latter, none such exist.  Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Either - or.  You pick it.  But - if you put the "Gentleman" straightjacket on me, then you better wear the "Lady" one yourself.  By the same token, if you want the "person" label, your femininity is an irrelevance unless we breed together.

All other things being equal, Wendy Mac strikes me as a woman who wants to be a lady part of the time, and a person the other part of the time.  It just doesn't work that way.  Whichever women pick, they should be prepared to wear that hat 24/7.  And iFeminism strikes me as just that brand of philosophy - we want all that comes with being equal - except we also want to be a "aldy" when we want, too.

Equality means equality.  A is A.  It means your tears are your problem, your period needs a midol and sucking it up, you need to get your cart the hell out of my way at the home improvement store, open your own doors and pickle jars, and kill your own spiders.  

If you want to be provided for and defended, dammit, it means that the man who has a family to support NEEDS his job over your "self-fulfilment" hobby.  It means me, and every American man who has had to register for the draft or go and fight and risk death paid just a little more for their citizenship, so should get a better package.  If you want motherhood "honored for the sacrifices that come with it," you better damn well make those sacrifices - and putting your kids in daycare to chase your career is not a sacrifice.  That's a choice for you.  Choices have consequences.  Suck it up.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Dr. Feelgood on Oct 29, 2004, 03:27 PM
That almost brought fucking tears to my eyes. I think I might even frame it. :notworthy:
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: typhonblue on Oct 29, 2004, 03:37 PM
I agree with Gonzo.

I think if you water down your message to appeal to all women, then you may dilute your message to the point where it might as well not exist.

For the most part an equitable society will require sacrifice on the part of women, sacrificing the power and additional privilage they now possess. This won't be a pleasant process for women, and I doubt there will be many who admit to the nessessity of it. In fact I doubt the MRA movement will ever find friends except among those women who are willing to look at the issue with logic and fairness and accept any analysis of the current situation(and potential solutions) without taking it personally.

I don't want to see another patriarchy. Although the western world hasn't had one for over one and a half millenia, I have lived in a patriarchy in the middle east. Although they run the gamet young men in such a society are often as self-involved, arrogant and hateful as young women are in ours. Bleah. No thanks.

I would like to see a society that harmoniously integrates the strengths of both genders, while minimizing the weaknesses. And you can't have a discussion about such a society without examining weaknesses. And you can't have a discussion about gender-based weaknesses if you think such discussions are misogynist/misandrous. Our whole society seems geared to discussing the weaknesses of male nature. I would, personally, like a little space to discuss the weaknesses of female nature.

I don't think these discussions constitute misogyny/misandry, unless they are coupled with "... and that's why we should marginalize/kill/destroy them all."
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Dr. Feelgood on Oct 29, 2004, 03:42 PM
You are correct these conversations do not constitute misogyny/misandry unless you in a forum where one gender has to prattle to the other dominent gender or get zonked. Open condescention donning the threat of banning and censorship to dangle over one class of peoples heads should be considered misogyny/misandry.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: LSBeene on Oct 29, 2004, 05:09 PM
Quote from: "typhonblue"
I agree with Gonzo.

I think if you water down your message to appeal to all women, then you may dilute your message to the point where it might as well not exist.

For the most part an equitable society will require sacrifice on the part of women, sacrificing the power and additional privilage they now possess. This won't be a pleasant process for women, and I doubt there will be many who admit to the nessessity of it.


Nicely said Typhon,

And I quoted "I agree with Gonzo" because his was also fair and on point.

'Nuff said.

Steven
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Dr. Feelgood on Oct 30, 2004, 05:21 AM
I got a warning and a snippy little PM from the moderator pet while the Mac duo has been out on Vaca..


Someone on there posts that they lived in a neighborhood with a certain ethnic background and that they were constantly harrassed and abused. So, they made the mistake of saying they use caution when entering those neighborhoods since the four year stint of harrassment and violence displayed against them for being what ethnic background they come from.

See, I undestand the sensitivity of racism, bigotry, but this poster moved into this neighborhood without any pre disposed opinion or feeling toward the people who abused them, so racist acts or intent are not evident. If they are exposed to acts against them for their skin color, who is the racist? Why is it wrong to be cautious?

This was the intent of the poster who submitted that post and the dynamic clique is on the run with charges of racism...blah blah blah. Even though this person has stated they have no negative feelings for any ethnicity just that they do not throw caution to the wind. Isn't that human?

I made a post saying even a dog who is beat by men regularly would cower to any man who approaches it. Of course the weakest member of the clique returns with assertions that I am reducing mankind to the lowest common denominator, which is a dog. Not true, I said if a dog has the most simplest most natural reaction to that which may harm it, why not humans?

Either way, the posters intent was not racism but caution, which was repeated over and over.

I get a post from this crakerjackcookiecutterfeministdrone using Websters unabridged dictionary, part of it only, just enough to allow her to call people racists. I tell her using this is unbecoming, that her behavior is snide and I get this on the board.

Dr. Feelgood, I would caution you that this forum's rules clearly state that incivility, personal attacks, and ad hominems are not acceptable behavior within this forum. Kindly restrict yourself to addressing only the logic of the argument, not the person. -GDP

I respond with Hmmmm....

then my post is deleted and I get this on PM.


Dr. Feelgood, I have deleted your posting claiming your innocence for two reasons:

First, in my judgement as moderator pro tem, making allegations regarding a poster's "snide tone" is not civil --- it was an attack of the person, not the argument. Kindly refrain from making assumptions about other posters intentions.

Second, you have been around here long enough to know that this is a privately owned, moderated board, that all moderator decisions are final, and that meta-discussion of moderation policy is not permitted.

Finally, please note that it is not your job to criticize the posting style of other posters; the board's owner did not deputize you as Internet Style Policeman. Again, address the argument, not the person or their style.

-- /gdp, moderator pro tem


Gee, ya don't think anyone is looking for a fight or anything do you? Hmmm.... is a fucking meta discussion/analysis? Doesn't posting something to someone publicly on a forum get a response? That shit is baiting and sneaky. If you respond and defend your position or try to reason with an explaination you are banned. If you respond to a PM you get spanked and are warned again or banned. If you ignore the PM you are warned again or banned for not responding to their cries. I dont see the need to delete posts that are not attacking or flaming anyone just to prop up the act to ban someone, and then post a cry of meta analysis and victimization.  What a fucking scam. Isn't calling someone a racist uncivil?
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Dr. Feelgood on Oct 30, 2004, 06:02 AM
When I asked how Hmmmm....becomes meta discussion this is what I got from Mr. moderator.

Dr. Feelgood, you seem to be under the impression that this is a "public" chat-room; it is not. You should consider yourself to be a guest at a private party in Wendy and Brad's living-room, having an after-dinner conversation with other guests. When one is a guest in someone's else's house, it is rude to criticize one of the host's other guests, regardless of how much you may dislike what you perceive to be that other guest's "tone" --- that job belongs to your host, not to you.

If you find the other guests are not to your liking, or feel that your hosts are "favoring" one guest over another, you are welcome to leave the party; however, you are not welcome to say "don't take that tone with me, young girl" to another guest, nor to criticize how your hosts choose to moderate the after-dinner conversation in their own living-room.

Once again --- This is a private board. The board owner's policy is that you are welcome to criticize another poster's logical arguments, but you are not welcome to criticize another poster's tone, style, or presentation.

This will be my last word on the subject --- except to remind you that the Board's Admin has made it clear that posters should refrain from pissing off the temporary admin while the owner and amininstrator are out of town.

-- /gdp, moderator pro tem


In other words, I won't say anything to those who are uncivil and you can't either. And I love the living room affect, how charming. If the board is Wendy and Brads living room what would they call PM, a broom closet where they hang you from your toes?

Kirsten did basically the same thing to me, criticized my style etc...I quoted her and just put . "Hmmmm" and this guy GDP deleted it, so I posted it again, and he deleted it again. I guess it is ok for Kirsten to post this to me but it is not ok to quote it. Anyone wondering what the jig is with that place? You shouldn't because it is plain as day.

Dr. Feelgood. To be honest, I find zero value in our exchanges so far as you have done nothing but misrepresent my comments in the most contorted and bizarre ways- so much so that I am starting to wonder whether or not you are purposely doing so. Regardless, I don't plan to have any further discussion with you beyond this post as it seems entirely futile.

This is of course acceptable by virtue of who is doing it, just don't quote it. :lol:

In PM again:

Dr. Feelgood, I will remind you that every poster here has the right to state that they are no longer interested in further discussing a matter, or having further discussions with a given poster, as clearly stated in the forum rules.

Kindly refrain from further "Hmmms..." and "Interestings...", as they are clearly an indirect attempt at criticism of moderation policy. This is your last warning on this subject; further attempts to take pokes at moderation policy will result in your being banned.

-- /gdp, moderator pro tem


I wonder what makes this fool think it is a poke at moderation? Maybe because he knows he stuck his foot in his mouth. Like I was focusing on her telling me she doesn't want to have exchanges with me and not her criticisms.
I have captured snapshots of it.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: The Biscuit Queen on Oct 30, 2004, 07:39 AM
Gonzo is right. Our message means some cutting off of the gravy train. He is right that people need thicker skins, and that women must choose between the lady or the independant person. Steven is also right in that many men are angry, and that anger is nothing to be ashamed of.

I am also right. Spewing hatred, as opposed to reasonable, passionate standing up of rights, hurts the movement.

There is a difference between having a message which contains negatives as part of the reasonable whole, and spewing hatred.

There is a between. You do not have to hate women to be passionately in favor of men's rights.

Do not water down the message. Just think about what the message is before you send it. Some men andwomen will NOT accept any message at all. Screw em. But MOST men and women will listen to a message that is reasonably put and free from hate.  Think about those people. They are in part controlling things right now, and our job will be a lot easier if they can be persuaded to meet us halfway.  Most men and women do not like the feminazis any more than we do. MOst people are starting to see the reality.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: DLove on Oct 30, 2004, 08:04 PM
Biscuit Queen,

In a perfect world the "between" you speak of would be ideal. Unfortunately in this "real" world many men that pass through here (this forum), the ones either reading silently on the sidelines or those learning how to verbally articulate the enormous pain and anger that  has engulf them, that sometimes  the transition from that intense pain and anger to positive activism does takes some time. That’s why other men who hear those that are venting /speaking in anger give them the room to vent because they know from their own experience it will pass. The key for MRA's is understanding this and help ease the transition period so that what is heard over the bullhorn is not the anger. An apology is rarely needed. But please, don't expect someone that is caught in the web of the family courts and is feeling a bit suicidal, NOT to be loud or angry and perhaps even little bit unbalanced in his thinking. We are after all humans and not programmed machines.  

dlove
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: alien on Oct 31, 2004, 06:52 AM
Discussing things pleasantly will get us no where.

Sorry, but this little duck is sick to death of hearing how we must maintain our manners, remember the rules, and be sensitive to others. It seems to me that as long as women and girlie men are never offended, then the issues can be presented.  What issues? Women's issues - maybe? If Wendy is a (so-called) fighter for men and their rights, then change the name of the site and drop the draconian moderator. A forum is supposed to be an open community for the exchanging of ideas. It should be openly welcoming and at all times encouraging to posters to supply rich and diverse levels of content. The last thing any forum needs is a moderator that keeps going ape shit.

What's the point in Wendy streaming pro-male articles if at the same time she's willing to allow the censoring of incoming male ideas (debating)?

Welcome to INazis.com - where all Jews are welcome to debate (conditions apply)

Condtions of entry: don't mention the holocaust.

Regards
:evil:
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: DLove on Oct 31, 2004, 09:16 AM
After listening to most of the comments about her board and having been directed there by the mensactivisim website AND having personally seen the lopsided way her pet dogs conduct themselves in meaningful and honest discussions when they disagree, I came to the same conclusion as many other men, that the site was not quite as advertised. After giving it more thought my opinion has changed and the reason why is that while her site which is purported to hold ideas that are sympathic to MRA, it is still a feminist site albeit one that has a difference of opinion from general feminist organizations, is only "male friendly" which should never be confused with a site that is "supportive of men rights".

dlove
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Stallywood on Nov 07, 2004, 06:48 PM
Quote from: "Dr. Feelgood"
I have also run into that excuse many a time. Not all men are angry, just speaking up, and when they do they get this line of "Know how hard to push, don't use mysogyny". Face it, all you have to do is look beyond your alliances and read the damn board, it isn't rocket science. It isn't hard to see the women there are using plenty of misandry and un civil like candor to present themselves, men walk on eggshells there or get booted. The ones who do not get booted are ones who cluck in agreement and rarely post until they do cluck in agreement.

It is such a sad thing to see this excuse, because that is what it is. If there is evidence that the person in that thread was being angry or pushing wee bitty buttons why would she delete it and leave her rant? Sometimes I have to wonder, are men ever allowed ANY grace?



I agree. If men are going to fight this war walking on Egg shells so as not to offend women, it is going to be a LONG war.

Stally
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: The Gonzman on Nov 07, 2004, 08:44 PM
Quote from: "Stallywood"
I agree. If men are going to fight this war walking on Egg shells so as not to offend women, it is going to be a LONG war.

Stally


If you weren't so damn ugly and unshaven, I'd kiss you.  And slip you the tongue.

That is the essence of it in a nutshell.  Recapture the no-bullshit male model of communication; the old idea of mean what you say, say what you mean, and scorn the euphemism as the tool of the dissembler and liar.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: LSBeene on Nov 07, 2004, 08:50 PM
Quote from: "Gonzokid"
Quote from: "Stallywood"
I agree. If men are going to fight this war walking on Egg shells so as not to offend women, it is going to be a LONG war.

Stally


If you weren't so damn ugly and unshaven, I'd kiss you.  And slip you the tongue.


As Groucho said: "I'd never join a club that would accpet me as a member"

I think I see what he meant.

(just playin')

Steven
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Stallywood on Nov 07, 2004, 09:02 PM
Quote from: "Gonzokid"
Quote from: "Stallywood"
I agree. If men are going to fight this war walking on Egg shells so as not to offend women, it is going to be a LONG war.

Stally


If you weren't so damn ugly and unshaven, I'd kiss you.  And slip you the tongue.

That is the essence of it in a nutshell.  Recapture the no-bullshit male model of communication; the old idea of mean what you say, say what you mean, and scorn the euphemism as the tool of the dissembler and liar.


Appreciate the support, but only Mrs. T can slip me the tounge.  :D

Stally
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: The Biscuit Queen on Nov 08, 2004, 05:31 AM
I just had an idea. I agree that mras must be able to rant. But right now the rants are public, and therefore read by people who may be turned off by them (not feminists, but possible MRA's).

Could you add a private room here, accessable by invite only, where you can rant to your hearts content?

Don't send me an invite, it would be none of my business and I don't want to read them.

I think many men here are angry, and ranting is benificial to them, but it does also scare away those who are moderate or undecided.

This seems like a good way to have both.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Double Jeopardy on Nov 08, 2004, 05:42 AM
Quote from: "The Biscuit Queen"
I just had an idea. I agree that mras must be able to rant. But right now the rants are public, and therefore read by people who may be turned off by them (not feminists, but possible MRA's).

Could you add a private room here, accessable by invite only, where you can rant to your hearts content?

Don't send me an invite, it would be none of my business and I don't want to read them.

I think many men here are angry, and ranting is benificial to them, but it does also scare away those who are moderate or undecided.

This seems like a good way to have both.



There are a lot of men who are going to remain angry until society stops shitting on them. I get real weary of the "There are some men here who are real angry, isn't there somewhere to put them so they can let off steam where I don't have to see it?" posts. No offense, BQ, but I see no reason to tuck men away from this forum into a corner where no one has to see the issues or the plight men have to endure. Dr. Evil can do as he wishes because this is his domain but I think it is a piss poor idea. Hell, if you want to see nothing but controlled speech you can always join Ifeminism and watch men get shut down on a daily basis, no need for male input there at all.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Nov 08, 2004, 05:52 AM
"Rant" sounds to me kind of like someone foaming at the mouth, hysterically shouting nonsense.  I'm not sure that anyone is really doing that here.

I get a general feeling, from statements like:

<< ... where you can rant to your hearts content?>>

<< ... and I don't want to read them.>>

that you just don't like some of the things that people are saying here, so you want them "put away" somewhere else.  Maybe that's too harsh or exaggerated on my part.

But I also hope that they don't have to put out their cigars and sit up straight.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: The Biscuit Queen on Nov 08, 2004, 08:19 AM
I meant foaming at the mouth woman hating rants, and you are right, they are generally not allowed here. But there are other forums where they are, and I have nearly lost supporters due to those rants. I am not one to make people behave in a certain way for my own preferances. Ask Dave, decorum in our house is not a priority.

I am looking at this from the perspective of how do we find balance between showing anger and resentment and keeping possible supporters. This war is not going to be won by anger alone, it is going to be won by showing more people the truth than the feminists can brainwash. Keeping in mind what the feminists say about mras, and not allowing the boards to support that, to me is important.

I think we need all kinds, and I guess I am looking for a place to send people who have passed the first step of listening to us in person for more information. I am finding many men's boards undo all the work I have done to persuade people there are problems. A good friend of mine, who is a pitbull when on a cause, was completely turned off at mensactivism, and it took me another month of sending her my own information from the sources to persuade her that we were not all a bunch of women haters.  She has since joined in all Glenn Sacks campaigns and talks to other people about these issues.

I am not going to continue to argue this. I was simply trying to find a solution for everyone to get what they want.  Men here need to be able to rant, and visitors need to avoid hate and bigotry.  I am obviously coming from another angle here, and one which you guys are not interested in. Advice is there to take or not take.  To assume people will always take one's advice is foolish.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Double Jeopardy on Nov 08, 2004, 08:25 AM
You have lost supporters? I don't follow what that means, where? Here? Since there are no issues here why bother with it? There are no instances of hate and bigotry here, visitors are not subjected to it, BQ. One minute you admit this and in the next you suggest otherwise, why? I find that usually when a person takes a defensive stance just viewing the articles and the posts that particular individual didn't go to that site with an open mind but with a defensive mindset. I for one am not going to oscillate between the two paradigms of mens rights and peoples feelings just to recruit someone who thinks I am a ranting maniac or a whiner simply because I stand my ground. Maybe a membeship to Ifeminist ( I would say Ms too but it no longer exists) as a male member and a week or two of trying to figure out why this so called "male friendly" forum keeps cutting you off and selling you short while you try to communicate will help those who are concerned about "rants, bigotry and hatred" when coming here. They will be conditioned to see the light, maybe.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Stallywood on Nov 08, 2004, 06:28 PM
My feelings are, that if a person gets put off from supporting men, because an court raped man is venting ( he just got ass raped by a judge)
Then their support wasnt really there in the first place. A woman rapes a man in divorce court, and  STILL gets sympathy. On the other hand, the man receives NO sympathy. And then he cant even vent his anger on a board?
I cant agree.

Stally
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Double Jeopardy on Nov 16, 2004, 06:55 AM
I dont know who this Travis person is at Ifem but he seems to be getting tired of the happy poo poo that is practiced at Wendy's forum all in the name of the "Socratic Method of debtate". :lol:

LS Beene has tried numerous times to answer all questions Brad and Kirsten have asked of him, even repeatedly, and of course Kirsten plays the usual "Socratic Method" of blind, deaf and dumb in return while pelting out 5 more questions to every one she ignores that is asked of her. The subject is gay marriage and here is Travis' last offering which is hilarious.

Quote from: "Travis"
Humph!

Lots of heat and rather little light.

The institution of marriage has been around for better than
10,000 years, has it not?

It has been religious, and it has been entirely a legal
arrangement. It has included polygamy, and it has included
unions of adult with child or two unwilling children.

It is my understanding that men in ancient Greece loved their
boy-toys and married females for the vulgar procedure of procreation.

I suspect the lower classes were much less creative in their
sexual practices.

Is there ANY HISTORICAL PRECEDENT in the last 10,000
years of any culture with any sustainability to it, which
sanctioned homosexual marriage, and called it such and gave it
social status on a par with heterosexual monagomous marriage?

(Holland since 1995 does NOT count!)

If I want my lover, my business partner, or my great aunt Matilda
to be my legal next of kin, to inheirit my vast fortune which is
entirely invested in antique PEZ dispensers, or to pull the plug on
me at the hospital when my brainwaves go flat from a sexual
asphyxiation accident, it is as easy as can be to see a lawyer
and tie up such legal loose ends.

But THAT is not what this whole gay marriage thing is
about, is it?

It is about "marrying" your homosexual lover, and going down to
Tennessee, Alabama, or Arkansas, flaunting your lifestyle to your
ignorant redneck bible-thumping relatives, and DEMANDING
they give you just as much respect as they give your "breeder"
siblings who you hold in such contempt.

Knock yourselves out, boys and girls, but THAT will
never happen. And whether they admit it or not, your oh-so-liberal
friends who come to your gay wedding will conceal their own
distaste and confusion, and will be less than horrified when you go
through your own ugly divorces.

THAT is what us knuckle-dragging red-staters are rebeling
against when we say we resent this business being "imposed" upon
us, and "degrading" the institution of marriage. If gay marriage
gains a foothold in this country, the polygamists will be demanding
their rights next.

The perceived reasons for a man and woman to unite in marriage
will seem rather nebulous. (They already do)

Marriage has taken quite a beating in the last 100 years, perhaps
you don't care whether we even HAVE such an institution.

I would rather leave things alone than be socially engineered by
socialist judges in Massachusetts, or profesional radical malcontents.

( and not ONCE did I mention GOD! )

--Travis--


http://www.ifeminists.net/interaction/forum/viewtopic.php?p=17603&sid=2250c373ba0c8fcbcd10ee1d7c07593b#17603

Check out the whole thread and watch the dog and pony show that Kirsten and Brad put on, aside from the natural emotion that comes over you to want to boot Kirsten in the keester you gotta get a small chuckle from the obtuseness of their approach.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Stallywood on Nov 16, 2004, 10:49 AM
The man is a damn good writer. But I am not going to visit the site, because every time I do, I hope it will be different, and it never is. And you know what the definition of insanity is. Plus I just ate.   :)

Stally
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Gabriel on Nov 16, 2004, 01:37 PM
Ha, I once went on for 8 pages trying to explain that the marriage strike isn't anti-women against some chick Erin. Finally, I got tired and said f it. Travis pmed me and said "Can you say 'willfully ignorant'" and he was right. Plus, I am positive there is some kind of private forum not open to the public there, and probably only open to females.  They act stupid, refuse to answer questions... it was getting my blood pressue up in the heart attack range. So I pulled out. Ifeminist is for those who enjoy beating their head against a wall or being a house eunuch for the feminists there.  

Travis needs to take his own advice.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: LSBeene on Nov 16, 2004, 02:55 PM
I do still believe in the "iFeminists" concept due to the founder (Wendy), but I have noticed, and commented on it today, that I was getting comments from the Mod but that the other poster was not.

My response (since it is publically posted there it's not a secret) to that was:
Quote
Did I give a short answer that was similar ONCE .... gee whiz ... YES. And time and time again on this forum when I have been in error or made a too broad statement I have admitted such. Kirsten, for whatever reason seems to slip beneath that logical radar of yours. Her "every statement generates 5 questions" manner, is not a "posting style" ... certainly not when it's a position she agrees with.

I mean this most gently, but I question your objectivity here man. I do. You addressed what I had said, you addressed how I presented it, you addressed when I misquoted, you presented how I perceived being called a liar .. and when I have addressed that it takes two and her actions ..... NADA.

You've seen that I can be passionate, and that I can admit mistakes. That I can address when I'm wrong, or that I can refuse to admit I am wrong when I feel that to be the case. But there has to be balance in your notice of what if going on .... there has to be or it's a tacit endorsement of someone's tactics and their posts.


But I have seen a style of posting.  I don't know if this is sexist or not, but it's making me think:

Remember that Kiata chick from About.com?  And how when she didn't like a poster's position she would do the "5 questions for every statement" thing?  She'd break down EVERY sentence you posted and want a 2000 word disertation (fully footnoted, cited, documented, and with LONG explanations).  And when you, naively, did this, she'd take THAT post and bread down every sentence, dispute that water was wet, question every assertion made, dismiss cites she didn't like, ignore questions that disproved the heart of her ideas, and on and on and on and on it went.

It's a wearing down tactic.  And this is the "maybe sexist" part: it seems that SOME (generalization and my opinion only) women do this as instinct.  Knowing that men are about conflict resolution.  We will be in verbal conflict but don't like nor want a constant (though subtle) barrage of endless needling.  

My wife will complain that I yell at her, and I explain ... she pecks and pecks and pecks and pecks .. I leave the room, she follows ("I just want to 'talk'"), I explain and listen and want to reason and end the "problem" .. and she pecks and pecks and pecks .. I walk away telling her "STOP - no more I don't like this" (she follows) ... I walk into a room and CLOSE the door as an obvious sign: leave me be PLEASE.  She enters and pecks and pecks and pecks ... then I yell: "STOP.... fucking leave me be!" and she does the very female thing: "Sniff sniff, I was just trying to talk... what's wrong, why are you yelling?".

And YEARS later after 200 explanations of WHY I want her to STOP the pecking pecking pecking she still tries to do the bewildered "what?!" bull.

Men tend to conflict and end it.  Women (for lack of a better term) are like the ocean and wear you down naggin the shit out of you.  

That's, in my opinion, what women do when confronted and knowing what men are like.  Women are VERY socially aware.  Moreso than men in my opinion so the bullshit of "I was just ..." don't fucking fly after the first time we resolve that her nagging me isn't "cute" or "talking" or "showing concern" or ["whatever phrase masks the endless assault on my peace of fucking mind"].

And women do this TO men, but often NOT to other women who know what it is. So, in my opinion, it IS intentional.  And after the first "date at the prom" (the first 20 times with 5 different guys) she employs this tactic and then asks "what" ... it's just emotional abuse and manipulation.  Pushing buttons and then acting like "what" is so fucking childish.

I know I vented but I just needed to get that shit off my chest.

Hope you guys won't think less of me for it.

Steven
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: typhonblue on Nov 16, 2004, 03:03 PM
I admit. I have a tendancy to nag as well. Although I do try to keep it in check consciously. Usually my ADD does the trick for me though.

Typhon: Do X, Do Y, Do X like Y. No Y FIRST then X.
Mr. Typhon: Go away.
Typhon: Sniff, aww-- oh look at the shiny object! *runs off*

I think my partner has his end down to an exact science. He ignores me for a count of twenty and I loose interest in whatever it was I was talking about.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Thomas on Nov 16, 2004, 03:11 PM
Quote
It's a wearing down tactic. And this is the "maybe sexist" part: it seems that SOME (generalization and my opinion only) women do this as instinct.

Whether or not it's instinct, I suspect many of them learn and practice this sort of thing in their women's studies classes and that they further cultivate it when they get together socially and away from men and discuss how to "deal with" men.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Thomas on Nov 16, 2004, 03:14 PM
Quote
Typhon: Do X, Do Y, Do X like Y. No Y FIRST then X.
Mr. Typhon: Go away.
Typhon: Sniff, aww-- oh look at the shiny object! *runs off*

I just about fell out of my chair laughing.  Well done!
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Double Jeopardy on Nov 16, 2004, 03:28 PM
Quote from: "LSBeene"
I do still believe in the "iFeminists" concept due to the founder (Wendy), but I have noticed, and commented on it today, that I was getting comments from the Mod but that the other poster was not.

My response (since it is publically posted there it's not a secret) to that was:
Quote
Did I give a short answer that was similar ONCE .... gee whiz ... YES. And time and time again on this forum when I have been in error or made a too broad statement I have admitted such. Kirsten, for whatever reason seems to slip beneath that logical radar of yours. Her "every statement generates 5 questions" manner, is not a "posting style" ... certainly not when it's a position she agrees with.

I mean this most gently, but I question your objectivity here man. I do. You addressed what I had said, you addressed how I presented it, you addressed when I misquoted, you presented how I perceived being called a liar .. and when I have addressed that it takes two and her actions ..... NADA.

You've seen that I can be passionate, and that I can admit mistakes. That I can address when I'm wrong, or that I can refuse to admit I am wrong when I feel that to be the case. But there has to be balance in your notice of what if going on .... there has to be or it's a tacit endorsement of someone's tactics and their posts.


But I have seen a style of posting.  I don't know if this is sexist or not, but it's making me think:

Remember that Kiata chick from About.com?  And how when she didn't like a poster's position she would do the "5 questions for every statement" thing?  She'd break down EVERY sentence you posted and want a 2000 word disertation (fully footnoted, cited, documented, and with LONG explanations).  And when you, naively, did this, she'd take THAT post and bread down every sentence, dispute that water was wet, question every assertion made, dismiss cites she didn't like, ignore questions that disproved the heart of her ideas, and on and on and on and on it went.

It's a wearing down tactic.  And this is the "maybe sexist" part: it seems that SOME (generalization and my opinion only) women do this as instinct.  Knowing that men are about conflict resolution.  We will be in verbal conflict but don't like nor want a constant (though subtle) barrage of endless needling.  

My wife will complain that I yell at her, and I explain ... she pecks and pecks and pecks and pecks .. I leave the room, she follows ("I just want to 'talk'"), I explain and listen and want to reason and end the "problem" .. and she pecks and pecks and pecks .. I walk away telling her "STOP - no more I don't like this" (she follows) ... I walk into a room and CLOSE the door as an obvious sign: leave me be PLEASE.  She enters and pecks and pecks and pecks ... then I yell: "STOP.... fucking leave me be!" and she does the very female thing: "Sniff sniff, I was just trying to talk... what's wrong, why are you yelling?".

And YEARS later after 200 explanations of WHY I want her to STOP the pecking pecking pecking she still tries to do the bewildered "what?!" bull.

Men tend to conflict and end it.  Women (for lack of a better term) are like the ocean and wear you down naggin the shit out of you.  

That's, in my opinion, what women do when confronted and knowing what men are like.  Women are VERY socially aware.  Moreso than men in my opinion so the bullshit of "I was just ..." don't fucking fly after the first time we resolve that her nagging me isn't "cute" or "talking" or "showing concern" or ["whatever phrase masks the endless assault on my peace of fucking mind"].

And women do this TO men, but often NOT to other women who know what it is. So, in my opinion, it IS intentional.  And after the first "date at the prom" (the first 20 times with 5 different guys) she employs this tactic and then asks "what" ... it's just emotional abuse and manipulation.  Pushing buttons and then acting like "what" is so fucking childish.

I know I vented but I just needed to get that shit off my chest.

Hope you guys won't think less of me for it.

Steven



LSBeene, why you still have faith in Ifeminism bewilders me, because of Wendy? Wendys articles and offerings through FOX are complete contradictions from what she allows on her forum, what she does on her forum along with her boy Brad. Ifeminism is a bad penny right from the start with the name, equal rights with feminism in the name? If you went there spouting off about starting a movement called Irapist to support equal treatment for rape victims and those who are falsely accused you would be met with total crap and treated like shit once again. Would you start a concept called Irapist and expect women to trust you, would you expect people, at all, to take you seriously if you did? It all adds up to exactly what every man deals with there from Kirsten, Erin and the other muppets (gdp, PatT) who only come around when the wagons start circling around the man du jour to be berated and shat on. Wendy and Brads lopsided moderating technique is no coincidence, not on your life, my friend. How many times has Kirsten taken pleasure of throwing out the snooty quips and declarations of "This discussion is OVER" and never does she get reminded to be civil?  You are a good member in good standing there from what I see and you damn sure take extra caution to not offend yet you are the new target. Youyourself explained precisely what happens there to Brad and you are so right, you're spot on. Just don't expect a serious response and certainly nothing critical of the precious Kirsten. Funny how the "Socratic Method" only applies to those whom Kirsten drops it on, not the other way around.

When you get it figured out that Wendy McElroy doesn't practice what she sells and her articles are polar opposite to her real views and actions on her forum, I hope you are not too disenchanted because this has become very evident to many and that is no ones bidding but her own.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: LST on Nov 16, 2004, 03:32 PM
Quote from: "LSBeene"
But I have seen a style of posting.  I don't know if this is sexist or not, but it's making me think:

I have noticed this too. All feminists seem to speak like the same person.
Or maybe several "personalities", but they all repeat each other's "style".

Quote

It's a wearing down tactic.  And this is the "maybe sexist" part: it seems that SOME (generalization and my opinion only) women do this as instinct.  Knowing that men are about conflict resolution.  We will be in verbal conflict but don't like nor want a constant (though subtle) barrage of endless needling.

I agree. Where else would they learn it ?
Do they go to some secret matriarchy university headquarters and study it there ?

Quote

My wife will complain that I yell at her, and I explain ... she pecks and pecks and pecks and pecks .. I leave the room, she follows ("I just want to 'talk'"), I explain and listen and want to reason and end the "problem" .. and she pecks and pecks and pecks .. I walk away telling her "STOP - no more I don't like this" (she follows) ... I walk into a room and CLOSE the door as an obvious sign: leave me be PLEASE.  She enters and pecks and pecks and pecks ... then I yell: "STOP.... fucking leave me be!" and she does the very female thing: "Sniff sniff, I was just trying to talk... what's wrong, why are you yelling?".

And YEARS later after 200 explanations of WHY I want her to STOP the pecking pecking pecking she still tries to do the bewildered "what?!" bull.

Yes ! It's entirely intentional. How could anyone believe that she can't understand simple explanations ?
And why would you think that she can't understand her own behaviour ?
She does what she does and she knows it. It's one of the most used female psychological assault tactics.

Quote

Men tend to conflict and end it.  Women (for lack of a better term) are like the ocean and wear you down naggin the shit out of you.

There already was a discussion about this in the psychic vampire/energy topic, and yes it's pretty mysterious. I guess it doesn't make them tired, but rather they get some sort of a satisfaction from it. Else why the hell would they do it ?
Also it makes me doubt that at the same time that they consciously use psychological warfare tactics against their "loved one" they can also love him.
Logic would tell that you wouldn't try to annoy and wear out and force into submission someone that you love ?

Quote

That's, in my opinion, what women do when confronted and knowing what men are like.  Women are VERY socially aware.  Moreso than men in my opinion so the bullshit of "I was just ..." don't fucking fly after the first time we resolve that her nagging me isn't "cute" or "talking" or "showing concern" or ["whatever phrase masks the endless assault on my peace of fucking mind"].

Indeed.

Quote

And women do this TO men, but often NOT to other women who know what it is.

Yes, i noticed this too. Because this crap simply won't work with most women.

Quote

So, in my opinion, it IS intentional.  And after the first "date at the prom" (the first 20 times with 5 different guys) she employs this tactic and then asks "what" ... it's just emotional abuse and manipulation.  Pushing buttons and then acting like "what" is so fucking childish.

I agree.

Nice observations LSBeene !!
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: LSBeene on Nov 16, 2004, 07:41 PM
Actually I wanted to add to this.

Now, understand I am about to be very careful in my wording so that no one misunderstands... I caveat what I say by saying that I do not support DV nor blame the victims (of whatever gender).

I think sometimes SOME women (in my opinion and a total generalization) go LOOKING for the man to explode.  Not necessarily involving ANY physical violence, but counting on the dude to detonate.

I mean, think about it:  the more socially aware person, who (unless they are 12-17 year old virgins who have NEVER dated or dealt with men) keeps pushing buttons on a man, and THEN acts surprised when he finally blows.

I mean, peck peck peck, "Stop it, Either we discuss this and get it done, without endless meandering or tangental discussions - or it fucking drops"

Peck peck peck peck

"Babe, you're really pissing me off .. just PLEASE fucking quit it"

Peck "I want to talk" (dig into your feelings whether you desire to or not)

Peck "I just want to say one thing" (this is going to go on and on endlessly and you damn well won't get the last word)

Peck "What is YOUR problem" (open ended comment placing blame that begs for a response and places the onus of the conversation and the problem on YOU)

Peck "ok, can we hug" (I'm getting my arms around you so you can't walk away and I can 'gently' bring this shit up AGAIN)

Me: "Babe, is there something you want to resolve?  I mean, fuck it, if we talk about it, IF, because I don't HAVE to talk about shit, is this RESOLVED so we don't have conversation #251 for the 76th time this year?!"

Peck "but this is important to me" (It's important to me at THIS moment, but mostly because I want what I want and YOU are denying it to me!)

Peck "I'm just trying to help with [ask for honey-do project]" (read: I asked you to do something and now I want to supervise HOW you do it. - note from Steven: How fucking condescending and aristocratic is THAT!?)

Peck "Yes I organized your stuff, stop being an ungrateful jerk!" (read: yes I moved YOUR stuff for MY convenience knowing full well that you wake up 2-3 hours before I do and that I HATE to be woken up by "stupid questions" like: Hey, where is my STUFF - never mind that I'll wake you up at any time for my convenience)

Peck "You're not listening to me" (I'm saying the same thing we've discussed since I MET you, and despite my "triple-backed-up-'hurt-memory-drive'" I can't remember what YOU said when "we" resolved this the LAST time we talked)

Me: "Babe, I am SERIOUS, plz plz plz step the fuck away from me.  Cease and fucking desist this shit.  I am going to the computer room and when I close the door that is more than a HINT! Back the fuck off ..."

But but but .... (*sniff*) "why are you yelling at me!? "  - gets on phone to tell her friends how I am verbally mean to her.

And, remember, my wife is Japanese: she's not a vindicitive victimologist who TRIES to make me unhappy because it's her "whim du jour"

Ok ... I'm done ranting.  I had a rough day.  Blah!

Steven
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Stallywood on Nov 16, 2004, 07:48 PM
Wendy's articles notwithstanding, anyone having any doubts about how screwed up that site is, such just read the thread "A case of the F*** its" by Kirsten. If thats not enough, there is a thread that turned me on the fact that women, in fact do NOt choose the easy jobs. Another great thread, taught me an economic thing or two. I learned that women in the workforce, had nothing to do with wages lowering. The fact that a living wage no longer exists, except perhaps in the minds of someone who has been in a coma for the last 30 years, has nothing to do with women in the work force.
Stally
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Stallywood on Nov 16, 2004, 07:54 PM
LSBeene wrote:
Quote
But but but .... (*sniff*) "why are you yelling at me!? " - gets on phone to tell her friends how I am verbally mean to her.


I think I wrote about a GF I had, that did this EVERY time we had an argument. Her favorite line, "I just cant take it." 20 minutes later, we are back together, and she forgets how she shit on me to her buddies.
I am amazed sometimes that women want to be equal, yet we would never put up with crap like this from a man.
Stally
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Roy on Nov 16, 2004, 09:38 PM
LS,

Don't be too hard on yourself as you try to understand the "crazy-making" fighting tactics of your significant other. (You're OK... she's NOT!)

She could be any female, wife, girlfriend.... it's generic to their species.

Why?

Because women learn as adolescent girls all the arts of "passive-aggressive" combat.

They master as teenagers during their girlfriend "friendship wars" all the psychological and emotional weaponry that they later refine and use against the men they claim to love.

These tactics include (just to name a few) -- shaming, blaming, ignoring, refusing to admit responsibility, shunning, withholding affection, destroying reputations, getting others to do your dirty work, etc. etc.

Women have Master's degrees in psychological warfare. Men are still struggling to get their GEDs!

What is uniquely devastating about passive-aggression is that it makes all the people in the fallout zone feel like THEY are crazy!

The typical routine of the PA aggressor is to make a "hit and run," then ask "What's wrong, honey?"

Then, when you want to constructively confront the issue/conflict, they retreat and refuse to participate.

Ask your S.O about her girlfriends in high school, and how they treated each other.

Chances are good you'll see some connections to how she cannot engage in the constructive resolution of disagreements.

The best textbook on this female pathology is Rachel Simmons book "Odd Girl Out: The Hidden Culture of Aggression in Girls."

BTW, you can't "win" with a dedicated P.A. female.... you just gotta RUN!
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Thomas on Nov 16, 2004, 09:39 PM
Steven,

Please accept this as friendly advice.

It sounds like you're headed for the courtroom.  It may be time for you to talk to an attorney and get your ducks in a row.  You've already been railroaded with a false rape accusation; I'd hate to see you put through it again.  If you'd like, email me at [email protected]  I'd be happy to discuss things with you.  But you might want to start being very careful about all your electronic communications, including bulletin board posts and email.  As you and I and pretty much everyone else here knows, the deck is stacked against you.

Then again, maybe I'm just misunderstanding things.

All the best, my friend.

Thomas
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Thomas on Nov 16, 2004, 09:45 PM
Roy said,
Quote
BTW, you can't "win" with a dedicated P.A. female.... you just gotta RUN!

As John Barrymore stated,
Quote
The way to fight a woman is with your hat.  Grab it and run.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: angryharry on Nov 16, 2004, 09:56 PM
From a recent piece ...

Quote
But, for men, listening to them going round and round in circles, forever contradicting themselves and getting nowhere, the psychological pain is often just too much to bear.

And it often drives them crazy.

And the thing is this.

Most women also know that talking non-stop and nagging - or 'being difficult' without reason - exasperates men.

And so they often talk a great deal with the purposeful intention of causing hurt and trouble.

Yes. AH will repeat this.

... with the PURPOSEFUL intention of causing hurt and trouble.

And men rarely realise this.

Men think that women are somehow completely blind to the negative effects that they are creating when they employ over-excessive verbiage when, for example, they are having some kind of contretemps with their male partners.

But women are not completely stupid - or so we are continually told - particularly when it comes to 'emotions' and 'relationships'. And, for the most part, they are well aware that their hyper-verbalising is aggravating to men.

In much the same way that a man might purposely and self-consciously make himself look physically threatening in order to intimidate into backing down someone with whom he is arguing, women will very often hyper-verbalise utter nonsense in order to achieve the same end through a process that is something like a mental siege.

They use similar tactics to those recently discovered to have taken place against Iraqi prisoners - e.g. unceasing verbal onslaughts, humiliating insults, threats to do harm, no time for respite etc etc.

In other words, torture!

And they will be just as purposeful and as self-conscious about what they are doing as are professional torturers.

Furthermore, women know that the more trouble and turmoil that they cause in relationships, the more likely will their target males behave in a manner which - especially at a later date - can easily be described as 'abusive'.

And their own part in causing any aggression - or in causing whatever is currently deemed to be inappropriate behaviour - is cleverly hidden from view.

"Look. Look. I didn't give him any bruises. Therefore, I am completely innocent. And what he has done to me is, therefore, completely unjustifiable."

Women have been playing this game for centuries.

And, of course, the amount of 'abuse' that a woman can make others believe she has suffered adds to her personal armoury.

Abuse is her currency.

Victimhood is her passport.

So what is there for her to lose by being troublesome!?

Indeed, there is little incentive for an unreasonable woman to behave reasonably toward her male partner these days, but there are plenty of incentives around to encourage her to do the very opposite.

And, for the most part, women know exactly just how far they can push their partners and what their likely reactions will be.

Indeed, they have been negotiating their way through those who are physically stronger than themselves since they were little girls!

By the time that they are adults, they are experts at manipulating those who are physically stronger than themselves.

And so when it comes to perpetual moaning, whining, whingeing or nagging, these are best viewed as acts of domestic violence, because this is what they really are.

They are covert acts of aggression and provocation designed to hurt.

Erin Pizzey calls women who engage in such things, 'emotional terrorists'.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Roy on Nov 16, 2004, 10:08 PM
Yes, A.H.,

That was a great essay. I read it a long while back on your excellent site. Bang on.

It continues to be amazing that the disguised real power of women cannot be named, described in detail, and accepted by men, or communicated in the mass media. (Only here... "men at screens...")

Are we destined to be always chattal to our chivalry and foolish idealism?

Even if the "15%+" formula you advocate comes to pass?

Personally, I am interested in the intersection of feminist ideology and how it actually affects the personal psychology of women, and men. Especially children and adolescents growing up in this misandrist arena.

What's your take, sir?
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Double Jeopardy on Nov 17, 2004, 07:46 AM
Of couse after the usual excuses from Brad that poor widdle Kirsten is just employing the "Socratic method of debate" which was properly deciphered by Travis as a Vinnie Barbarino method of debate... :lol: ..Wendy comes along with her obtuse du jour method of excuses for poor moderation called "The meta analysis of....blah blah blah", Kirsten prances in with this:

Quote from: "Kirsten"
FTR, I was not making a point, I was not debating. I was ONLY trying to understand the other person's point of view before I commented on it. Asking questions is about the only way I know to do that. Where I come from, it is considered a courtesy to understand before arguing- not cause for insults.


http://www.ifeminists.net/interaction/forum/viewtopic.php?p=17737&sid=a9f1c669c50e97ba5912b0b45ed19bce#17737

Of course if you break that down it means she is admitting she isn't there to debate with her "socratic method" :jerk:  but to learn because she is a blithering twit. Where she comes from you ask and ask and ask, never learn and never acknowlege or communicate comprehension.  FTR, that is. :lol:
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Nov 17, 2004, 07:56 AM
So she's only trying to be courteous ... and THIS is what she gets in return for her kindness.  I think she knows exactly what she's doing.

I think it's too funny that Wendy has attacked the debate style of posters before in defense of Kirstin, like here:

http://www.ifeminists.net/interaction/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1375&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60

And then to defend Kirstin she simultaneously says on the next thread that one shouldn't attack Kirstin's debate style.

It's a pure clique of Wendy, Brad, gdp, Kirstin, Erin, Kafka et al.  Even LSBeene is falling out of the Queen's favor.

And now Wendy doesn't want any more articles that seem disparaging to women:

http://www.ifeminists.net/interaction/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1687

People are starting to catch on that her stance in her FoxNews articles doesn't have much to do with her real personality.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Double Jeopardy on Nov 17, 2004, 08:07 AM
You said a mouthful there, Galt. Wendy is a leech to the cause of men. If her articles got her no notoriety and no money, she wouldn't give one shit. That is my opinion of course, but as I mentioned before, I used to think differently of her but in her own bidding to out her agenda I have learned and there's no returning into good graces with me for Wendy McElroy and her pet Brad and Co.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Double Jeopardy on Nov 17, 2004, 08:11 AM
That post she wrote bashing TM could easily have Kirstens name written all over it, I wonder why that is? :readthis:


http://www.ifeminists.net/interaction/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1375&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: LST on Nov 17, 2004, 08:12 AM
Quote

Imagine how you would feel on a forum that continually posted items about how terribly men act with no comparable stories about women. I'm not suggesting the presence of *more items* about despicable men as a way to balance things out. I'm saying let's lighten up.

lolol...
Since the whole fucking world isn't enough !

So looks like my first post here was correct. ;--)

IWF and "REAL women" and "women's freedom network" is the same crap.
Don't fall for feminazi bait friends ! :--)
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: jaketk on Nov 17, 2004, 04:48 PM
Quote from: "Stallywood"
Wendy's articles notwithstanding, anyone having any doubts about how screwed up that site is, such just read the thread "A case of the F*** its" by Kirsten.


I realized that there is a double standard there, and I just accepted it after that post. I actually was pretty supportive of the site when I first found it, and I ended up trying to get as many people to check the site out to see that it wasn't just men speaking out about attitudes towards men. But once I got onto the forum, things changed. There's an obvious clique there, and that's fine. They have their own rules, lingo, and so on, and that's fine too. What isn't fine is contradicting their own rules, or changing them when it seems best. Certain posters' actions don't match their words, and Wendy is included in that. There are few things that I'm willing to invest trust in, and a person's word is one of them. When I see that a person's word is so easily broken, that they would do the exact same thing to another that they do not want done to them (sometimes on the same thread), it means I can't trust their word. And if I can't trust their word, then I cannot trust their intentions either.

I'm not entirely sure what anyone at that site gets out of essentially "playing" with people, but I'm also not a person who is easily intimidated. Part of the problem is that I think these posters are used to punking easy targets. They're used to trashing people who either have no defense or are too angry to be coherent. And I think they're used to dealing with people who are mystified by academic language. What it appears to boil down to is that these posters are used to not being questioned, which makes Brad's response to Kirsten's dodging somewhat contradictory since when I have used the Socratic method (once with Kirsten and once with Erin), I was "threatened" with banning.

Regardless of that, it's too easy to just say the hell with it and walk away. That's the reason why I am still posting there. If they want to ban me, fine. If they want to disrespect me, they'll have to get in a long line, but fine. But I will not be punked into shutting my mouth because certain people don't like being questioned.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Nov 17, 2004, 05:07 PM
<< ... but I'm also not a person who is easily intimidated.>>

That doesn't really matter - they'll just wear you down and then ban you.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Double Jeopardy on Nov 18, 2004, 06:16 AM
Quote from: "LST"
Quote

Imagine how you would feel on a forum that continually posted items about how terribly men act with no comparable stories about women. I'm not suggesting the presence of *more items* about despicable men as a way to balance things out. I'm saying let's lighten up.

lolol...
Since the whole fucking world isn't enough !

So looks like my first post here was correct. ;--)

IWF and "REAL women" and "women's freedom network" is the same crap.
Don't fall for feminazi bait friends ! :--)


IWF isn't the same as Ifeminist, they are completely different outfits, LST. Maybe you already knew that but I wasn't sure so I figured I would point that out.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: LST on Nov 18, 2004, 07:46 AM
By "the same crap" i mean that they are fake in their "male-friendliness".
Since IWF pretends to "oppose" traditional feminism.
But it's still good old manhating, except in a different wrapping.
It would be nice if mensactivism.org removed the damn link to ifeminists.net already.
Feminazis are still feminazis, who cares what guise they put on.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Double Jeopardy on Nov 18, 2004, 07:49 AM
Quote from: "LST"
By "the same crap" i mean that they are fake in their "male-friendliness".
Since IWF pretends to "oppose" traditional feminism.
But it's still good old manhating, except in a different wrapping.



I think the IWF has done a better job of speaking against gender feminism and acting against it then Ifeminists.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: LST on Nov 18, 2004, 07:50 AM
Well, it's your choice.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Double Jeopardy on Nov 18, 2004, 07:54 AM
I am always suspicious of any organization of women who parse claims of equality for men and women as equals, but I try to be fair and balanced before making a leap to make a final judgement. When I do make that final decision it is not reversable, and Ifeminist has reached that level with me.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Gabriel on Nov 18, 2004, 08:09 AM
Quote
And I think they're used to dealing with people who are mystified by academic language.


You are right that they don't follow their own rules. One of their methods is deny that you are making a point regardless of how clear you are making it. They deny deny deny deny and then after 6 pages they'll deny your point some more. They will keep saying that 1 + 1 does not equal 2. What this tells me is that they are not interested discussing honestly, they have their way of seeing the world and nothing will convince them.  

As others have said, I believe this tactic is to wear you down. Going there is like smacking your head into a wall and I don't enjoy doing that.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: jaketk on Nov 18, 2004, 09:10 AM
The tactics being used are basically this: You make and/or respond to a post, but you have a different point of view. First they try to "understand" you, which is what all that questioning is. Then they try to help you "understand" them, which is where all that academic lingo comes in. And if you're still hanging in there, they get nasty, and that's usually followed by a "threat" of banning by one of the admins.

All of these require you to respond in anger and frustration for them to work. And more precisely, they require you to want to win the argument. I grew up with manipulative people, so when I see tactics like this, it's easy to sort them out. I don't care about winning. I care about getting people to be willing to understand. So a "loss" means little to me.

One of the reasons why men's issues don't get the support and the attention they deserve is because people play the above game with men. Even people who claim to be our allies. That's the reason I keep posting there. I will not have someone claim to speak for me, which is precisely what they are doing, but ignore anything I say because they don't like it.

The other reason I maintain a presence there is because there are women and men there who are supportive of men's rights, and those are the folks I'm speaking to; and the dozens more who never post.

So it's less like smacking my head against a brick wall, and more like shouting loud enough so that those inside who want to understand and help can hear me. And if the folks who run the city have a problem, they can come out and try to deal with me.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: powder-monkey on Nov 18, 2004, 09:21 AM
I agree with jaketk.
More good could be done posting over there than complaining here (after all, this is page 12).
Refuse to be drawn into answering lengthy questionaires or convoluted discussions of definitions of definitions.  Point out the hypocrisies and when the inevitable banning arrives, wear it as a badge of honor.
I'm not talking about trolling; I just don't like bullies.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: LSBeene on Nov 18, 2004, 09:31 AM
Well,

There IS a definate clique there, but there are also some pretty nice people who post too.

Sure, and I'll freely admit it, I was pulling my hair out 2 days ago.  But Wendy and her articles do have my support.  I guess I separate the two: the forum and her articles.  Plue, and this is my personal feeling, I genuinely like Wendy, which, again, I think of as a separate being/entity than iFeminist.  

I know I know you guys won't agree.  But when she and I correspond she's always very nice and has always been "there" for me and been a friend.

We have our cliques here too.  IMO, we allow more discourse and disagreement, but that's what we're like.  I like "our" method more, but that's the nature of BBS'

Steven
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Double Jeopardy on Nov 18, 2004, 10:28 AM
Quote from: "powder-monkey"
I agree with jaketk.
More good could be done posting over there than complaining here (after all, this is page 12).
Refuse to be drawn into answering lengthy questionaires or convoluted discussions of definitions of definitions.  Point out the hypocrisies and when the inevitable banning arrives, wear it as a badge of honor.
I'm not talking about trolling; I just don't like bullies.



What about those who were banned for no good reason and their back handed tactics erased so no evidence is shown? If you point anything out you get banned and treated like shit. Is that what you need to see? Obviously you either haven't been reading what goes on over there or don't care how men are treated, tell me which and I will be more informed of why take this position.  If my complaining here is a problem I won't, but I won't go over there just to be shit on to prove a point to satisfy I did the right thing. I have been there already and don't care to go back.

Steven if Wendy is your friend good luck to you.

Maybe this isn't the place to discuss problems or issues at length. Maybe you would like all us to keep it to a 2 page max? I thought this was a discussion for awareness? It looks as though their controlling has weedled over to this forum where men who try to discuss get shut down. :roll:
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: powder-monkey on Nov 18, 2004, 11:46 AM
DJ wrote:
"What about those who were banned for no good reason and their back handed tactics erased so no evidence is shown? If you point anything out you get banned
and treated like shit. Is that what you need to see? Obviously you either haven't been reading what goes on over there or don't care how men are treated,
tell me which and I will be more informed of why take this position. If my complaining here is a problem I won't, but I won't go over there just to be
shit on to prove a point to satisfy I did the right thing. I have been there already and don't care to go back."

If you reviewed the thread Steven was involved in, you would see that a number of other members jumped in to support him.  The more that happens in a particular thread, the harder it is for them to engage in business as usual.  
If you find the experience that unpleasant, then I certainly can't fault you for keeping your distance.  For my own part, I don't see where they have the power to inflict any real injury unless you cede it to them.
Through numbers, we might shift the balance just a bit over there; in any event, with the right attitude going in, it might even be fun, whether we succeed or not.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Double Jeopardy on Nov 18, 2004, 12:00 PM
No, the more it is done and the more they back you the more Wendy shuts down the threads, erases her and others attacks and it's business as usual. I had the right attitude going in and I still have the right one now. You think you can change them? Go ahead, knock yourself out. I just don't think it's right to poo pah this discussion hecause you find enjoyment posting over there. It may be 12 pages but they are 12 pages you can easily not click on and let others have the freedom to share notes on our adversaries, over 170 posts and almost 4000 views tells me people are interested in this subject and suggesting they just clam up and go over there to get shit on isn't such a cool move in my opinion. I don't care if you or anyone want to post there, that is not the purpose of this thread.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: powder-monkey on Nov 18, 2004, 01:49 PM
DJ,

I understand that you must have had a very bad time of it over there and have no desire to repeat the experience.  There's every chance that I'll feel the same in the near future; but, for now, I don't take too seriously what goes on over there.  
I certainly never meant to imply that this discussion should be sacrificed for a more active policy.  I do think, however, that if we are going to spend this much time on the subject, a little action to supplement the verbiage would be a tonic.
There is no criticism of you, implicit or explicit, in my advocating confrontation.  I absolutely respect your feelings on the matter.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: dr e on Nov 18, 2004, 02:12 PM
What does happen when you complain directly?
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: LSBeene on Nov 18, 2004, 02:20 PM
DJ,

I can totally sense your anger and I am a passionate man myself.

I DO see that certain people get preference.

My loyalty to Wendy is the same I would give to you for past "good deeds".  

I am troubled by some aspects of what I see over there.  I have found that many (most) BBS' go through certain periods.

And I see WHY you are angry: I myself am angrered by unfairness and inequity.

Even before my false rape accusation I lived with a lot of that at home in my formative years.

It's one of the reasons I became so adept at debate, a deductive thinker, and able to pick out inequity and lay it bare in the light of day.

So, you, who are getting that inequity (in your opinion, which I happen to agree it's real, as I have seen it) are pissed.

Yep, sure, you betcha.  I aint sayin' it's not happening.

Hell, to be objective and honest WE (SYG mods and posters) do it too.  IMO it's to a far lesser extent, but, I hope, that I base that on objectivity.

The plain fact is that iFeminists IS a private board.  That's a given.  I've been "mod'd" there too.  Maybe I get more leeway, and for that I am grateful (in the sense that maybe it'll help change some minds).

===========================================

One thing I NEED (as a moderator - changing hats here folks) is I do not wish to have an inter-BBS flame war.

Critiques?  Sure.  Complaints?  Works for me.  Have **I** been doing this?   :oops: Yeah.  :oops:   I have to step back, but when I do, I realize I have done this too.

So, for myself: Mea Culpa.

Sometimes when we see a wrong (perceived or real) we learn from it.

Lemme explain:

In the Army I heard something once that I have never forgotten.  Total nugget of wisdom that applies to civilian life as well as miltary:

Quote
When you have a bad NCO (Non-Commissioned Officer) you learn MORE from them on how to be (and NOT be) a soldier than from one who sets the example.  Why? Because the good NCO doing his duty is a fixture, a given, a quantifiable and dependable "tool" that garners little notice.  But the NCO who does injustice, practices inequity, shows preference, and has little regard for his/her soldiers WILL stick in your mind and show how you DON'T want to be.

(I paraphrased and ad libbed -forgive me) - "Legal Disclaimer" (lol)

Point being, right now at iFeminists there is some things going on that (in OUR opinion) need to be sorted out.  Either it will or will not happen.

NONE of that should be lost on any of us.  Why?  Well, first off, I want to do yet another MEA CULPA (yea on me!) that I have a hard time BEING objective.

I'll catch myself being partisan when posting, and forget to separate that from my JOB (a responsibility that Doc entrusted to me and which I TRY to do a reasonably good job at) of being a fair mod.

Have I failed at times and been the CULPRIT on others? Yep, sure, you betcha.

Now, I hope I have LEARNED from it when I saw the same at [any other board] when I was on the RECEIVING end of it.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

In other words let's stop the flaming (me too!) because this has gone beyond a critique.  

Let's all learn to be leaders and learn from what we have seen when we saw (in our opinion) what may have been leadership we disagreed with.
(really really trying to be diplomatic .... )

I ask that we try to change the tone of this thread and learn from what we have seen.



--In my MOD position I ask this and will listen openly to any critique of my post.

respectfully,

Steven
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Nov 18, 2004, 03:00 PM
Steven, she changes on a dime.  I personally got baited with posts from her - and then she removed her posts.  You remember when Phoebe and I were banned.  I've been back there since, but it's the same thing all over again so I've quit banging my head against the wall.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Nov 18, 2004, 03:04 PM
The huge difference between her Fox News columns and her *real* opinion (and bossy nature) in her message boards probably becomes clear when you realize that she is at best a mediocre writer - but she has come across a cottage industry of a WOMAN apparently being on the side of men in many cases.

We all do things to get money.  The problem with hypocrisy is that the person could turn on you on a dime if she isn't so certain about the position that gets her money.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Nov 18, 2004, 03:14 PM
I'm also in line with Double Jeopardy's opinion -- I'm pretty slow to form an opinion, but when the evidence is clear, that's pretty much it.  There was a link posted much earlier in this thread to a person who screen-captured some of Wendy's posts before she deleted them.  My opinion is that it doesn't even start to describe it, but that's only one screen-capture.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Stallywood on Nov 18, 2004, 06:41 PM
Galt, I too am in line with DJs opinion of the site. It is fairly self evident what goes on over there if one bothers to read some of the threads. As Ive stated before, read "A Case of the F*** its" (or something similar) by Kirsten. This and the one stating that men who blame women for the disappearance of a Living Wage, are misinformed sexist neanderthals convinced me to depart the board. Previous to that, I had been impressed by the level of writing skills I had observed. What I ended up seeing was that any generalization, even those due to life experiences, were dismissed as nonsense, sterotyping, sexist, remarks. And the writers were informed that their posting rights were in jeopardy.  For example, if I said that every woman I had a relatiionship with had hurt me, and I was not going to get involved with any more women. I would be dismissed as a whiner for one, closed minded for another, and ultimately as judging all women by the actions of a few.
Nevermind, I am preaching to the choir. If PM and some others wish to vist the site, more power to them.
Stally
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Stallywood on Nov 18, 2004, 06:46 PM
Oh, I dont know if it applies here, but it is an old strategy that some have used. It is, that no matter how many people your an asshole to, always have at least one person (with juice) that you treat like gold. This person will never fail to stick up for you when the going gets tough. Yep I learned this in the military.
Stally
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Double Jeopardy on Nov 19, 2004, 06:42 AM
That is a very accurate statement, Stally, don't know where it fits either but hey, if someone's foot slides into that glass slipper let them own it.

LSBeene I have to wonder why you said this

Quote
In other words let's stop the flaming (me too!) because this has gone beyond a critique.


Who is flaming who here? We just had a festering boil back a week or two ago about censoring what people say in the fat people equals lard ass thread. If I recall when the Ms boards were still in their glory everyone flocked here to mock, vent, critique, whatever, and never once did anyone get the idea that the posters here were being too hard on them, and that's a good thing because they weren't. I think that if one can call fat people lard asses we can surely call Kirsten a blithering twit without anyone thinking it is a morbid sin! No one has called Wendy anything but a hypocrite in so many words because of the black and white that appears on your screen when hitting her forum versus hitting a link to one of her articles, they do not meld, Steven, it is a clear case of square peg - round hole. I also noted that you mentioned "after all it is a private forum",one of Wendy's favorite tactis. No one is disputing that, I haven't seen anyone here take a position that it isn't private and shouldn't be treated as such. What they have tried very diligently is spell out the inconsistencies of her moderation, her political positions and her favoritism based on how she conducts herself on IfemBB. You are 100% right, she has every right in the world to treat people differently on a whim and play the games she plays because she owns the board. The point is she is a WOMAN speaking for men and only holds a mans input to a lesser value at best if you tow a party line whereas, again, you are less than. Stally said it perfectly, the people who have the ability to insert personal experience are women with the exception to those men who beg for forgiveness before attempting to add theirs while immediately posting the proper disclaimer of "Not that I think this is what women do". Is that honest? I don't think so.
To answer Dr. Evil, what happens if you complain is you get insulted on PM or on the board with what a jerk you are and that you are all but taking a dump in her living room because she figures being on her forum is like being at the breakfast table with her and Brad. Your posts remain, sometimes cut and edited to eliminate the questions asked and her responses to you are also cut or edited to make it look entirely different than the events that took place. One minute she tells you to not take it on the board but on PM and the next she is drilling you on the board begging for a response. If you take it to PM she either ignores you or tells you that you are going to be banned after a sufficient no holds barred ass chewing. When you respond she takes it to the board, asks you a question and bans you before you get to answer.
Her biggest excuse is there will not be a meta analysis of :

1. moderation
2. posting styles of others

Ok, #1, that means even if you don't understand and come asking either on the board or in PM, "why do you say that, this is what I meant not that"...you get warned and or banned and read about "No meta analysis...".

#2 Posting style of others, Kirsten plays this card to the enth degree, she critiques and asserts alleged motives in peoples posting style and it is allowed. You do the same, you get your ass chewed and are warned and or banned after hearing "No meta analysis of......".

This is not just an issue of my sour grapes with this forum but the evidence that points toward an organization and those who are favored in it and their obvious agenda. That place is earmarked as a representation of the Ifeminist organization which is supposed to be fair and balanced. It isn't fair and balanced, many have gone there and have tried and tried and for whatever reason are jerked around and shit on. I have seen Brad and Wendy chase after posters there who would not acknowledge Kirsten's inquiries, assertions and directives by telling them "We are here to have discourse and debate this, Kirsten has respectfully stated blah blah and you have not responded, if you are not interested in discussing this by answering so everyone understands your position I ask that you not participate until you are". So, what does this mean? This means when Kirsten does her "Socratic method" of Vinnie Barbarino discourse she can ask whatever she wants and never do so in kind, and you are told "The rules state that you are not obliged to answer questions". If you come back and point that out to Wendy or Brad, you get "I will not tolerate any meta analysis of moderation, this is your (last, first or on many occasions no)warning" " There will be no meta analysis of.." and WHAM, you're toast . I could go on all day as Galt pointed out, the link to a snapshot of these sort of tactics does not even touch the surface of this run around men go through on Ifeminist.com 's BB by its site owner and president of this organization.This organization is likes to expound that it stands for equality and balance from gender partisan politics yet it practices just that on its own forum. There are men who get along there, if they watch themselves carefully, sure. If any mans posting style mirrors that of Kirsten's you get bounced out on your ass and that has been proven to be a fact. The thread where she states that she doesn't want articles saying "Women do this" or "Woman caught doing this" because she is feeling women are being bashed and it is turning women away says everything. She doesn't mention what women, or what those women are looking for. Are they looking for another MS forum where only threads about men are posted? She openly acknowledges that just as many threads are started about men who are doing horrible things but before you post one about a woman, heed caution. That is a very gray statement and postion to take leaving men with their dicks in their hands once again, not knowing what the fuck they can or can not do. So, that means she wanted to plant the seed of caution before you men post that shit, because she doesn't want to see it. If it is going to be done SHE or one of her drones will do it, no you MAN. It is just another ploy to shut men up. There has to be a change because the radical feminist movement is flying under the radar in fear of it's own demise. In my opinion Ifeminism is that brand of feminism that is flying under the radar playing the game hoping no one catches on. When the shit hits the fan and its between Kirsten and her gender feminism ala leftist mantra against any man, the man is history. Yea, this is all critique, just as it is for any organization which tries to claim a badge of  honor for equality with a backhanded agenda. This is not flaming, as I said before, Wendy and her Ifeminist organization is not above critique or harsh analysis then anyone else is when warranted, we have to be aware and we have to communicate to keep our sites in fine tune so we don't get caught with our pants down. It's not about telling someone how to run their forum, it's about awareness and communication is key.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Stallywood on Nov 19, 2004, 02:29 PM
This post wraps it up in one nice package. Nice work.  :D
Stally
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: The Gonzman on Nov 19, 2004, 07:51 PM
Here's a radical idea that is just whacky enough to work:

If you can't stand their dumb asses - don't go post there.

I got sick and tired a couple years ago with all the Amber clone trolls over there.  So, I stopped even reading it.

No more daily blood pressure raise.  If wendy wants a board populated by groupthinking, pseudo-intellectual twits, by all means - LET HER HAVE IT.

Brad and Kirsten are probably just exercising the only control they feel they have.  Bugger them

If the sheeple there want to be abused by those arrogant, self-righteous pricks, let them.  As for me, it's no skin off my ass.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Double Jeopardy on Nov 19, 2004, 08:03 PM
Yes.. yes.. yes, if you don't like it don't post there cause it doesn't mean squat. That means if you find any organization that is purporting to support men that you find is not, don't come here whining about it people, just don't read it, look at it, respond to it or even acknowlege it even exists.....decades of misandry and male bias is no indicator for concern. It'll go away, you just wait and see. I think when Stally mentioned that it takes someone with juice he had a very good point, I'll have to confer with an individual with more "Juice" or at least someone who thinks they have more "Juice" so they can spread the word. Some people can't see past their nose not to spite their face.

Thanks for your support, Stally. :wink:
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Stallywood on Nov 19, 2004, 08:54 PM
No problem.
Stally 8)
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Jan 07, 2005, 09:43 AM
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Jan 07, 2005, 09:50 AM
I think what really ticked her off was that I said that I took a screen shot - because I know how this website works.

That was admittedly hostile of me - but that comment was also deleted.  And I DO know how she works.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Mr Benn on Jan 07, 2005, 09:58 AM
Galt,

Did you save what you originally wrote and what she wrote?

Is there any way you can show us the screen-shot? If you'd rather not post it on here, could you post it on my forum (address in my sig line) or email it ?
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Jan 07, 2005, 10:05 AM
I did take a screen shot, but it didn't include her post.  She's quick.  I posted and then took a screen shot.  I'll send you the link via e-mail, though - you can clearly see that suddenly I say "Hi Wendy" and then write further - that would be bizarre if her post had not been deleted right above mine.  It's going to take me a few minutes, because I have to find it again over there.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Jan 07, 2005, 10:11 AM
OK, I don't need to e-mail the post, I'll just post it publicly:

http://www.ifeminists.net/interaction/forum/viewtopic.php?p=21412&highlight=#21412

I'm "Tether" there.

If you look at the second post on that thread, that's what seemed to inflame Wendy.

If you look near the bottom, you can see that I said "Hi Wendy" - with nothing above it.  On the next page, you can see that she put her own comments into my post - and also deleted parts of it.

That's all visible.  I am also claiming that she deleted a post above mine (why else would I write "Hi Wendy" out of the clear blue sky -- and she also deleted other posts of mine).

It's not in dispute that I was banned after that.

The post from Wendy was EXTREMELY nasty - but if she wants to defend it, she can say what she posted.  Completely unwarranted.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Mr Benn on Jan 07, 2005, 10:12 AM
Okay, thanks.

BTW, were you called "Galt" over there, or something else? I just did a search for Galt and its not on the memberlist.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Jan 07, 2005, 10:16 AM
Nope, "Tether" - see above.

I think that if you read the thread through, you have to say that things are missing.

You have to.

Because out of the clear blue sky I say "Hi Wendy" in one post, and then on the top of the next page, Wendy cuts into my own post and describes the rules.  And what she describes is crap; and I dispute what she tries to infer - BUT, it's clear that something is missing - my post comes out of nowhere, but so does hers (cut into my post).

It's clear that something is missing in the discussion (should I repeat that? - LOL).
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Mr Benn on Jan 07, 2005, 10:26 AM
But what was it that she said that was extremely nasty?

Can you remember the jist of it?

That woman gives me the creeps.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Jan 07, 2005, 10:42 AM
My personal opinion is that Wendy McElroy is not an honest person.  That's just my personal opinion.  She's also a public figure under libel law (Sullivan vs. NY Times, for instance).  I'm trying to stay away from anything that could be construed as libel with her history of legal actions.

I gave a link to a thread that appears to have gaps.  From both sides.  I tried to explain those gaps.  If she wants to give her side, I'd love to hear it (but I think that I would unfortunately be banned if she gives her views on this website).
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Mr Benn on Jan 07, 2005, 01:16 PM
Understood Galt.

Sadly even in the men's movement it seems that many still think that a woman's voice is more important than a man's.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Stallywood on Jan 07, 2005, 04:28 PM
Quote from: "Mr Benn"
Understood Galt.

Sadly even in the men's movement it seems that many still think that a woman's voice is more important than a man's.



Agreed. Sorry to see what happened Galt. That site is like a car wreck. Leave it alone, probably better for your blood pressure. But if any of them come here, I wont be PC to keep from getting banned.
Stally
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Gabriel on Jan 08, 2005, 09:40 AM
Quote from: "Galt"
My personal opinion is that Wendy McElroy is not an honest person.  That's just my personal opinion.  She's also a public figure under libel law (Sullivan vs. NY Times, for instance).  I'm trying to stay away from anything that could be construed as libel with her history of legal actions.


How is she a public figure under libel law?

What is her history with libel?

What is Sullivan vs NY Times?
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Jan 08, 2005, 10:14 AM
LOL

I just wanted to vent some steam because I felt that I was attacked - with the message immediately removed - and then banned when I tried to answer.  And she deleted some of my messages and then stuck her own post (in capital letters) IN my post.  Strange.  But not that big of a deal.

To answer Gabriel's probing questions: You have more leeway with public figures under libel law.  The basic case for that is Sullivan vs. New York Times - although it's a bit old, and there have obviously been refinements since.

But satire, criticism and the like are a lot more open for people who are deemed public figures.

As far as her legal actions go, I have read on her website about how she's hired attorneys to go after people sending her e-mails she doesn't like - one example, I think, was CANOW.  I'm frankly not entirely sure - from what I've heard, she sounds like a litigious person.

But enough Wah-Wah from me.  I have to learn that she's that way on her site - treating people like crap.  I realize that I came crying home after taking a poke at a bully on the playground.  I shouldn't be taking a poke at a bully ...
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Jan 08, 2005, 10:27 AM
By the way, thanks to xeno, if you also post on these boards under a different name or if you read here:

http://www.ifeminists.net/interaction/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2122&start=30

PHASE90
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
Posts: 23

Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 10:18 pm    Post subject:    

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edited because I didn't see where Wendy posted on this thread, at least where Tether said "Hi Wendy"...did I miss something?

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xeno
Joined: 30 Oct 2004
Posts: 35

Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 10:05 am    Post subject:    

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PHASE90:

Your confusion is understandable. There was originally a post by Wendy directly above that of Tether. I don't believe that it was altogether complimentary; though it's hard to say, as it was withdrawn so quickly.

This is not the first such occurrence and is not likely to be the last. If anyone desires to correct the accuracy of my assertions, please feel free.

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Wendy McElroy
Site Owner
Joined: 25 Mar 2004
Posts: 724

Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 10:17 am    Post subject:    

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Xeno: I have stated repeatedly that meta-analysis of how the BB is run is inappropriate. Please do not attempt to open a discussion on the rules or the moderation. If either are unacceptable to you, the solution is obvious.

Thank you,
Wendy McElroy
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Mr Benn on Jan 08, 2005, 11:17 AM
Why was it a "Meta-analysis"? It was just a question. Call it an analysis if you must, but meta-analysis? Talk about being pretentious.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: powder-monkey on Jan 08, 2005, 02:58 PM
Galt wrote:

"But enough Wah-Wah from me. I have to learn that she's that way on her site - treating people like crap. I realize that I came crying home after taking
a poke at a bully on the playground. I shouldn't be taking a poke at a bully ..."

Of course you should;  good on ya for making the effort.  I'd be willing to leave them to their own devices, but for having witnessed newcomers, some of whom are first-timers on a forum, being ambushed by the usual suspects.  Simply by raising the issue of fairness, you may be saving someone from needless trauma.

Mr. Ben wrote:

"Why was it a "Meta-analysis"? It was just a question. Call it an analysis if you must, but meta-analysis? Talk about being pretentious."

Quite right.  It must be meta-analysis, because they are, of course, above reproach.

Xeno
(yeah, that's right.)
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Roy on Jan 08, 2005, 08:41 PM
Quote
Ms McElroy--- "I have stated repeatedly that meta-analysis of how the BB is run is inappropriate. Please do not attempt to open a discussion on the rules or the moderation. If either are unacceptable to you, the solution is obvious."


As a casual observer of iFeminazi and the debates about its usefulness and/or support for the men's movement, I have to ask --- WTF?

This woman is a self-confessed Stalinist!

Mao Tse Tung would admire her tactics.

What gibberish ... squashing open debate with faux-intellectual concepts like "meta-analysis!"

iFeminist is fast becoming the Pee Wee's Playhouse of serious thought.

Which is to say.... always amusing!
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: DLove on Jan 09, 2005, 05:56 AM
Galt, before this thread was started I like most here also used to lurk "over there" and it really pissed me off the way they treat anyone outside of thier little circle. With Mr. Benn's earlier great analogy as well as Stally's good advice above the solution was very clear. Who needs/wants that kind of headache, my precious energy deserves to be expended on more useful things.

DLove
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Jan 09, 2005, 06:18 AM
That's probably good advice, DLove.  Stallywood is certainly right about that site not being good for my blood pressure.

Some people have blood pressure that is too low (I sure don't) and maybe the iFeminist site could serve a useful medical purpose to help those people.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Dr. Feelgood on Jan 09, 2005, 03:24 PM
Quote from: "Galt"
LOLBut enough Wah-Wah from me.  I have to learn that she's that way on her site - treating people like crap.  I realize that I came crying home after taking a poke at a bully on the playground.  I shouldn't be taking a poke at a bully ...


What makes you think you've come crying home anyway? If the wench didn't ban you I am sure your point would have been settled there and quite well too I might add. She may like to act the bully but all she is as far as I'm concerned is a spoiled brat with an inflated ego that is stroked by mal contents and intellectual wanna be's.

You've done good, grasshopper, go back and do it again. :wink:
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Dr. Feelgood on Jan 09, 2005, 03:29 PM
I also wanted to add that even though she likes to use the "You're a guest" as part of her rant, it's hilarious she doesn't see that no one wants to be her guest, even interim, except her clique and the normal people they shat off the site.

Ignorance is blind like a bat, and WendyBrad Co. have their radar off, all you have to do is look at the people who are participating and the obvious will rise above the facade Wendy calls "Ifeminsm".
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Jan 10, 2005, 05:46 PM
<<You've done good, grasshopper, go back and do it again. >>

LOL
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Róss on Jan 10, 2005, 06:38 PM
A poke here and a tweak there from multiple identities from different proxy servers.  It's actually doable.  I don't like Wendy much.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Bender on Jan 10, 2005, 06:52 PM
I agree with LST.  iFeminism is a fake.  An easily identifiable fake!!
And all of you taking up for McElroy should be ashamed of yourselves.  Pathetic lot you are.

BTW, I won't be on this board for at least a week so if you want to get your panties all in a wad , I won't be able to see what you write, ROFLMAO.

Bender
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Jan 10, 2005, 06:56 PM
Bender, my feeling is that the tilt tends to be away from McElroy here lately rather than towards her.

But I'm usually bad at reading trends.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Mr. Nickle on Jan 10, 2005, 06:56 PM
Wendy climbs up on her cross so often she should have an escalator installed.

Beene, I like how you got Kirsten running with your arguments. She won't discuss issues with you because previous arguments she had with others regarding the topic didn't go the way she wants. So much for her treating people as individuals. Nice to see others over there calling her on her obstructionist bullshit.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Jan 10, 2005, 06:59 PM
DO YOU HAVE STUDIES TO BACK UP YOUR STATEMENT, MR. NICKLE?

(Ummm ... just kidding, because you were talking about Kirsten).
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Mr. Nickle on Jan 10, 2005, 07:09 PM
:lol:

Please define what you mean by "studies", "backup", and "statement".

Your post was a total mischaricterization of my post.

If she acted like that in real life she would be the most bitch-slapped individual on the planet.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Sir Jessy of Anti on Jan 10, 2005, 09:21 PM
I once started to plant seeds of dissent in one of Kirsten's arguments, because it was proto-feminist.  She seems like a smart enough girl, but extremely pendantic.  It was like debating a poorly programed computer.  I got sick of plodding through the user unfriendly operating system and left.

As for McElroy, I don't know much about her style at the forum as I didn't stick around.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Stallywood on Jan 10, 2005, 09:51 PM
Quote from: "Mr. Nickle"
:lol:

Please define what you mean by "studies", "backup", and "statement".

Your post was a total mischaricterization of my post.

If she acted like that in real life she would be the most bitch-slapped individual on the planet.


I have never seen a woman act like this in real life. This makes me believe that there are  a shitload of closet feminists out there. You know, she seems normal when you talk to her, but at night, she is hunched over her computer spewing her Bulls*, and asking for studies, backup and statements...

Stally
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Quasimodo on Jan 15, 2005, 01:53 AM
Just came from the iFeminism site. Just testing to see if it still gives me the heebie jeebies. Yep. Like I imagine coming down from a bad acid trip must feel like.

Not only does the way Wendy runs her site make me feel like I'm walking on eggshells, but the quality of the posters -- the best that feminism has to offer -- freaks me out. Bring up any blatant example of an antimale sexist double standard and watch Kirsten, Erin, Kafka, et al, like a bunch of white blood cells, rush to the spot and neutralize it pedantic digressions into law, biology, philology, or any damned thing they can think of any the time. Mr. X, for instance, is shocked to learn that rigid gender roles are deemed OK for men, but not for women. This after over 1500 posts.

Now, Wendy cannot control the intelligence, maturity or honesty of her posters, true; but the above crew are the posters to whom she gives her strongest imprimatur.

Henceforth, I shall only visit iFeminism when I need a quick, non-narcotic buzz.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Dr. Feelgood on Jan 15, 2005, 05:40 AM
Quote from: "Quasimodo"
Just came from the iFeminism site. Just testing to see if it still gives me the heebie jeebies. Yep. Like I imagine coming down from a bad acid trip must feel like.

Not only does the way Wendy runs her site make me feel like I'm walking on eggshells, but the quality of the posters -- the best that feminism has to offer -- freaks me out. Bring up any blatant example of an antimale sexist double standard and watch Kirsten, Erin, Kafka, et al, like a bunch of white blood cells, rush to the spot and neutralize it pedantic digressions into law, biology, philology, or any damned thing they can think of any the time. Mr. X, for instance, is shocked to learn that rigid gender roles are deemed OK for men, but not for women. This after over 1500 posts.

Now, Wendy cannot control the intelligence, maturity or honesty of her posters, true; but the above crew are the posters to whom she gives her strongest imprimatur.

Henceforth, I shall only visit iFeminism when I need a quick, non-narcotic buzz.


Well said, I'll second that. :wink:
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: scarbo on Jan 15, 2005, 09:05 AM
Quote from: "Quasimodo"
Mr. X, for instance, is shocked to learn that rigid gender roles are deemed OK for men, but not for women. This after over 1500 posts.


I lurk over there, too, but I missed this one. Can you link it?
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Jan 15, 2005, 09:29 AM
<< ... is shocked to learn that rigid gender roles are deemed OK for men, but not for women.>>

This is more of a side note, but I've always thought that was the crux of the problem with feminists (and also with some of the "traditional" women - they just have a different slant, but same concept).  You can't be "equal" without equal responsibilities.

Another side note: Here is a post allegedly from Wendy McElroy that a poster cites; it's not denied, so I assume it is on her website somewhere:

http://www.ifeminists.net/interaction/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2212&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

(under Drumgurl's post).  

"Many of the societal cues aimed at women carry messages that, if taken to heart, naturally produce feelings of intellectual insecurity and inadequacy. The list is long. Women should not compete with men. Women become irrational when menstruating. Women do not argue fairly. Women - not men - must balance career and family. A wife should relocate to accommodate her husband's job transfer. A clean house is the woman's responsibility: a 'good living' is the man's. A wife who earns more than her husband is looking for trouble. Women are bad at math. Girls take home economics while boys take car repair. If a man sexually strays, it's because his wife is no longer savvy enough to keep him satisfied. Women gossip; men discuss. ... Whenever they stand up for themselves, women risk being labeled everything from "cute" to "a bitch." ... Almost every woman I know feels some degree of intellectual inadequacy."

-----------------------------------------------------------

Like I said, that seems to come out of nowhere, so I'm not 100% sure that Wendy McElroy wrote that.

But even if she didn't, I notice a huge discrepancy between what she really writes day-to-day on her message boards, presumably what she really believes, and her columns in Fox News.  A cynic would say that a mediocre writer knows which side the bread is buttered on - she has found a niche, and otherwise she would be unemployed.  And Brad would naturally have to move on to greener pastures if she wasn't bringing home the bacon.  And frying it up in a pan.

A third note: I've seen a real temper on her part.  She has talked about being beaten by a previous husband, and I wonder what really happened there.  I have seen myself that she has an explosive temper, even on message boards.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Jan 15, 2005, 09:42 AM
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Jan 15, 2005, 09:45 AM
I think that's the end of my rant with them.

But please stay tuned for new rants about Dr. Phil and Oprah.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Quasimodo on Jan 15, 2005, 09:46 AM
scarbo:

http://www.ifeminists.net/interaction/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2222&start=15
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Stallywood on Jan 15, 2005, 06:02 PM
Galt the place is a trainwreck. Horrible but you cant help but to look. But it gets to be like banging your head on the wall and hoping the next time it doesnt hurt. Just give the site up, it isnt going to change, and your blood pressure will thank you.   :D

Believe me, you wont miss it.
Stally
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Dr. Feelgood on Jan 15, 2005, 11:15 PM
I notice Wendy has a sticky on her board now begging for contributions to pay for her site, which would include the forum. I wonder how that would play into her " you are a guest here, I PAY for this site yadda yadda yadda" rants when shafting the obligatory "male poster of the month" sacraficial lamb"?

She may have a temper but it is better described as internet bigotry and anti male dominance which tells the bigger story of what she is all about. The post Galt mentioned which quoted her speaks plenty about her, and you can bet she said it because if she didn't the misandry squad that is Kirsten, Brian et al would have been all over it by now.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Quasimodo on Jan 22, 2005, 11:42 AM
Despite the site giving me the heebie jeebies, I lurked and posted again (can't seem to give up smoking, either, and I know that's bad for me). I don't really know if my brief, very mild statement was a trigger for Wendy's remarks, (http://www.ifeminists.net/interaction/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2322) but I hope not.

Guess I'll never learn. :roll:
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: scarbo on Jan 22, 2005, 11:54 AM
I've been following that thread, too, and no, I don't think your remark was it.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Stallywood on Jan 22, 2005, 12:10 PM
Lord that site makes me sick. Calling the Mens groups women haters, and inciters of violence. And then others jump into defend it. Makes me sick. Lord why did I LOOK????

Stally
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: CaptDMO on Jan 22, 2005, 12:58 PM
Quote from: "Quasimodo"
Despite the site giving me the heebie jeebies, I lurked and posted again (can't seem to give up smoking, either, and I know that's bad for me).  
Guess I'll never learn. :roll:


lol, I'm never sure whos posting under what name over there. I see some of the same stuff delivered in the same style and I suspect (warning; conspiricy theory) self promoting points of view with a mere change of shoes. I find it useful and warranted to consider certain personae as one and NOT wast too much time re-reading the stuff that  is clearly ghosts and echos . I find this true at several fem sites. I do not have, nor need,- the IT,desire, or time to track this stuff down. I've gotten better at cut and paste of my own stuff so I don't have to use up my resources opining- YET AGAIN- on stands I've made to the same counterpoint, made under  different name(s).

I'm not that good of a liar and I can't keep track of my marbles. Lose 'em all the time.  As such, I use only one name everywhere. Of course sometimes this is like a drop of blood in the water. As soon as I post, no matter what I post, the sharks circle and the feeding frenzy begins.  I can easily stand up to that, what's annoying to me is schizoid reinforcement of the desperate-clinging to life preservers. A different sort of straw men.

I can be fairly lazy as well. Bless those of you that have the strength to deconstruct -point by point- the ravings of lunatics only to face "Yeah, but .....tomatos are really vegatables because the school system considers catsup a vegtable in the FDA approved nutrition pyramid." (sorry, non sequiter, but that was the point)

Train wreck-no, well, compared to other places that exist by radfem logic I think it's more of a fender bender. But then, I too,can't seem to give up smoking .
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Roy on Jan 22, 2005, 01:58 PM
I read the thread and thought that Ms. McElroy made one good point, that being, there is a school of thought within the MRA movement -- maybe call it the "Mass Revenge Club" -- that appears to want to punish all women, legally overturn basic civil rights (i.e. voting), and enact further retributions and sanctions based solely on gender.

She argues that this is a path towards more government intrusion into private matters, and would result in dangerous restrictions on individual rights. (More importantly, she suggests it will doom the men's movement.)

This opinion seems pretty logical, given that MRA's have denounced feminism as a hate movement that seeks to criminalize all men based merely on their membership in a given gender.

Where I have some confusion with Wendy McElroy's logic is in her insistence that women who have not actively supported radical feminism should be somehow "given a pass," and that they are individuals, and not members of the sisterhood.

That just doesn't cut it, because passively accepting feminist tyranny is only a degree or two less complict than being an active proponent.

And, whether you march with NOW or just watch on the sidelines, if you're female, you enjoy the same unfair advantages of bad feminist laws and widespread social prejudices against men.

Like the good Germans who maintained their civility while their Jewish neighbors were being loaded onto railway cattle cars, iFeminists seem to be focused on debating ettiquette during a gendercide.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Dr. Feelgood on Jan 22, 2005, 08:03 PM
Quote from: "Roy"
I read the thread and thought that Ms. McElroy made one good point, that being, there is a school of thought within the MRA movement -- maybe call it the "Mass Revenge Club" -- that appears to want to punish all women, legally overturn basic civil rights (i.e. voting), and enact further retributions and sanctions based solely on gender.


That's nice, so what is your username on her board?
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Quasimodo on Jan 22, 2005, 08:13 PM
Things seem to have gotten worse since my short post. Brad seems to think 25-50% of MRAs are closet misogynists. (That idiot Brian thinks MRAs are 99% misogynist.) And Wendy...

Wendy wrote on pg. 2 of the thread:
Quote
Men's rights will fail. it doesn't seek a better society. It seeks to hurt all women in order to damage those responsible for gender inequity.

I can't take my eyes off this car wreck. Must -- God help me! -- read the rest of the thread. I'm goin' in.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Sir Jessy of Anti on Jan 22, 2005, 08:15 PM
Holy shit, she has Amberitis
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: jaketk on Jan 22, 2005, 08:55 PM
Quote from: "Quasimodo"
Things seem to have gotten worse since my short post. Brad seems to think 25-50% of MRAs are closet misogynists. (That idiot Brian thinks MRAs are 99% misogynist.) And Wendy...

Wendy wrote on pg. 2 of the thread:
Quote
Men's rights will fail. it doesn't seek a better society. It seeks to hurt all women in order to damage those responsible for gender inequity.

I can't take my eyes off this car wreck. Must -- God help me! -- read the rest of the thread. I'm goin' in.


thank GODsomeone else read that line the same way i did! thank you, thank you, thank you!!!
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Jan 23, 2005, 07:23 AM
What the heck is going on here? ... :

http://www.ifeminists.net/interaction/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2329

Beste
Joined: 08 Apr 2004
Posts: 83
Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 3:02 am    Post subject: Another example of misandry  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Men in trouble now that even their sperm isn't necessary


Quote:
If more men were supported in lowering their expectations of themselves to be clever in more practical ways, they might also be more valued. I think the man without suit or glory is a gem, and needs to be encouraged as a role model. Watch out any woman who has thoughts of living in a world without them. Your drains will not get fixed.


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Kafka
Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 317
Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 4:50 am    Post subject:    

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What's Beste's relationship to she that cannot be named least she troll your board for umpteenth days? I'm asking because Beste historically has come in to do that sort of thing, and take each side of the argument as it fits her that cannot be named agenda of the day.

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Beste
Joined: 08 Apr 2004
Posts: 83
Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 7:15 am    Post subject:    

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kafka wrote:
What's Beste's relationship to she that cannot be named least she troll your board for umpteenth days? I'm asking because Beste historically has come in to do that sort of thing, and take each side of the argument as it fits her that cannot be named agenda of the day.


You do realise that you giving yourself away by posting this? And that she who that cannot be named might come down to get you.

You should stick to the topic at hand. What do you think of the article?

Back to top      

--------------------------------------------------------------------

My bold above.

I've got my suspicions, because I've already had a bizarre thing with Kafka and Wendy.  Subject to Wendy's revisions and bannings.

But there are questions upon questions ....

1) How does this tie in with Dan's theory of the conspiracy with the Council on Foreign Relations and the Illuminati?  (LOL - kind of kidding).

2) Why is Kafka so motivated for certain issues?

3) I think I know the "person who won't be named".  But I'll wait for a possible comment from Beste.

4) Why don't we ever see Kafka and Wendy together?????  LOL
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Jan 23, 2005, 07:28 AM
I'd like to also add that on one of the many instances that Wendy said she got death threats and all the rest from MRAs, I posted four words:

"Any real-world examples?"

That was the whole post.  That's it.

My post was instantly deleted, and I was banned.

Quite a question, I guess.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Jan 23, 2005, 07:47 AM
My personal opinion is that Wendy's message board is the dumbest thing that she could have done - because a WHOLE lot of people are going to catch on to the difference between her opinions on Fox News and her REAL opinions on her website.  And reject her ultimately.

Her niche is a woman on men's side.  But if you look at what she really thinks (ostensibly what she writes day-to-day on her website ...), she's got to also know, even unconsciously, that she's earning money from men who are almost desparate to have women AND SOCIETY understand what they are also going through.

From that point of view, it is pathetic that a mediocre writer (at best, really at best) is pulling in her money from hypocrisy.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Jan 23, 2005, 07:59 AM
I really (honestly) don't want to overstep my bounds here with Dr. Evil's website.

I am so aggravated by what goes on there that I'm thinking about starting a separate website against her, but if I'm overstepping the bounds with my comments here, I'd like to ask for a PM from Dr. Evil.  I really respect your website, and I don't want to damage it for you.  I think this website is very valuable, and I don't want to get into trouble with opinions here.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: dr e on Jan 23, 2005, 08:37 AM
I've been following your assessments Galt.  As far as I can tell they are just your opinions about another board.  We used to do similar sorts of things with the MS and NOW boards so I don't think it is so out of line.  Probably best to avoid  personal attacks or smears but I don't see that so far.  I also don't want to get into a board war of posting he said she said stuff.  

It does seem a bit odd to delete posts that are the reason for someones banning.  I guess my preference is to leave all posts up to let people judge for themselves and to be able to go back and learn something from whatever mess may have happened.  Deleting it seems to create a climate of uncertainty and I would guess that that would lead to the fear of not knowing what the boundaries might be.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Beste on Jan 23, 2005, 08:46 AM
Quote from: "Galt"
I really (honestly) don't want to overstep my bounds here with Dr. Evil's website.

I am so aggravated by what goes on there that I'm thinking about starting a separate website against her.


Galt

Why do hate her so much? I've just been banned from her forum but I still don't hate her. I feel she's soft on feminism and her criticizms of mens rights are somewhat unwarranted.

I do not believe that she is disingenuous about  her brand of feminism and that  if more  were like her, we would not facing the same problems as we are today.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Jan 23, 2005, 08:49 AM
Quote from: "Dr Evil"
I also don't want to get into a board war of posting he said she said stuff.  


Fair enough - and I understand that.  I think I'll leave it ...
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Jan 23, 2005, 08:56 AM
Quote from: "Dr Evil"
It does seem a bit odd to delete posts that are the reason for someones banning.  I guess my preference is to leave all posts up to let people judge for themselves and to be able to go back and learn something from whatever mess may have happened.  Deleting it seems to create a climate of uncertainty and I would guess that that would lead to the fear of not knowing what the boundaries might be.


I agree.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Jan 23, 2005, 09:07 AM
Now it looks like Beste is going to be banned.

My new idea is to simply delete that website from my links, and given the option, be against Wendy McElroy.  Not that I'm ever going to get the option.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Beste on Jan 23, 2005, 09:19 AM
Quote from: "Galt"
Now it looks like Beste is going to be banned.

My new idea is to simply delete that website from my links, and given the option, be against Wendy McElroy.  Not that I'm ever going to get the option.


Quote
You have been banned from this forum.
Please contact the webmaster or board administrator for more information.


Yep, she banned  me alright. I thinlk she blames me for this whole mess(including  F4J) . The truth is I  never thought that starting that thread would cause so much trouble.

I thought Wendy(and the others) would have read  Dr. Hugo Schwyzers site and be equally as annoyed as I was.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Jan 23, 2005, 09:36 AM
Quote from: "Beste"
Yep, she banned  me alright.


LOL

In response to your question, Beste, a few minutes before you were banned (did I read that right?) ... I don't hate Wendy McElroy, in fact I have never met her.  I think she is a hypocrite and a very mediocre writer who is earning good money from a niche in exploiting men who have been nailed by society's laws.

But that's just my opinion.  I want to get that across to men who have been wronged in society.  No, Wendy's not mommy that you can run to, she's pulling your money out of your pocket.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Stallywood on Jan 23, 2005, 09:41 AM
Beste wrote:
Quote
I thought Wendy(and the others) would have read Dr. Hugo Schwyzers site and be equally as annoyed as I was.


Beste you thought wrong buddy. Galt, you have to give this thing up. Let loose of the hatred, or it will eat you alive.  I used to have a love hate relationship with the site. I would stubburnly log on from time to time, hoping that things would change. That posters wouldnt attack what seemed to me to be very fair points of view put forth in a very well written manner.

Alas this was not to be, and I was sorely disappointed everytime I ventured onto the forum. I told myself that this was bad for me, as simularily cigarettes are. And I dont even Smoke!  

Be stong and quit this cold turkey.  You dont need the aggravation.

(A former addict) :oops:

Stally
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Jan 23, 2005, 09:46 AM
Quote from: "Stallywood"
Galt, you have to give this thing up. Let loose of the hatred, or it will eat you alive.  


Sensible words, and I'm going to have to give up the "cigarettes" of her website.

Somehow I think that she is pulling money out of men's pockets, because some are so desparate to have justice.  If I see a person going around selling "magic beans" to a homeless person, for the last bit of money in his pocket, I think I would be similarly incensed.

But I guess that's their problem.

I've got to simply delete that link ... LOL.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Jan 23, 2005, 09:53 AM
You've got some good insight, and a calming effect sometimes, Stallywood.  More of a balanced personality than I have sometimes.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Róss on Jan 23, 2005, 10:20 AM
There are several solutions to McElroy that don't involve posting on her website.  E-mail to Glenn Sacks that she isn't who she claims to be.  Boycott at Fox News, and e-mails in protest to Fox News that she isn't who she claims to be ("follow the money").  And, of course, posts on other Internet websites that she is not who she claims to be.  The first of a few suggestions.  I also think that it's the money with her, so cut it off with boycotts and protests.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Quasimodo on Jan 23, 2005, 10:53 AM
The thread is ... missing.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Jan 23, 2005, 10:55 AM
No, it was put at the very bottom in the "shaming section".

Here's the link until it is deleted:

http://www.ifeminists.net/interaction/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2273

Some things are put there, others are just deleted.  The section is at the very bottom and is called "Abuses of Hospitality" on the website.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Jan 23, 2005, 11:06 AM
Oops, you're right, Quasimodo.  The thread I referenced was Beste's.

The whole thread that started this discussion is now gone from her website.  Including her remarks about men.  Maybe we all just imagined it.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: dr e on Jan 23, 2005, 11:10 AM
Shaming section??!!  LOL!  Do we need a shaming section?  The stockades?  Do the posts which are found offensive go to that section?  Then deleted?

Beste had you gotten in trouble there prior to this?  Been warned about advocating violence?  Not that your post was actually advocating violence though I suppose that someone thinking in a very concrete sort of way could see it like that.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Mr Benn on Jan 23, 2005, 11:40 AM
"I rarely lose my temper but, when I do, profanity is the palate with which I paint."

LOL another peice of classic McElroyalia! I thought she was being pretentious when she was whining on about "meta-analysis", but this one really does win the prize.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Jan 23, 2005, 12:00 PM
Quote from: "Mr Benn"
"I rarely lose my temper but, when I do, profanity is the palate with which I paint."


I think she's also deleted that now, in the thread Quasimodo was talking about, but you almost can't make this stuff up.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Quasimodo on Jan 23, 2005, 12:19 PM
Too bad. I would have liked to read Brad's response to my last post on that thread, the gist of which was:

1) jaketk mentioned that because of our present weak state MRAs are often forced to accept imperfect laws which are a step in the right direction.

2) my example: though FRAs prefer 50/50 joint physical/legal custody, removing the gender bias in the courts leading to 50% sole custody awards would be an acceptable first step. Then quipped: in this case even N.O.W. would fight for joint custody. Unjust laws can be useful if evenly applied.

3) Male-friendly (without quotes) feminists, who fear the men's movement will become like the radfems and turn the tables, have an unfounded fear since, besides being restrained by residual chivalry, the overwhelming power of the feminist establishment protects women's human rights. (While, of course, attacking those of men.)

4) Demanding such strictures on M/FRAs is like admonishing a 10 year old facing a professional boxer to fight fair.

Not particularly radical stuff here. But regarding #2 (no pun), I wonder how the iFem crowd would react to a thread that hypothesized fathers getting 50% (or more) of the sole custody awards.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Mr Benn on Jan 23, 2005, 12:24 PM
Galt, what was the gist of what she said? Can you remember what swear words she used? I could do with a laugh.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Quasimodo on Jan 23, 2005, 12:25 PM
I've finally identified the heebie jeebies I get when I visit that site: It's nearly identical to the feeling I used to get when my ex-wife used to ask, "Don't you trust me?"
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: LSBeene on Jan 23, 2005, 02:35 PM
This thread has gone on for 18 pages ...

is it possible we're all just a little bit obsessed?

Steven
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Beste on Jan 23, 2005, 03:05 PM
Quote from: "Galt"
What the heck is going on here? ... :

http://www.ifeminists.net/interaction/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2329

Beste
Joined: 08 Apr 2004
Posts: 83
Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 3:02 am    Post subject: Another example of misandry  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Men in trouble now that even their sperm isn't necessary


Quote:
If more men were supported in lowering their expectations of themselves to be clever in more practical ways, they might also be more valued. I think the man without suit or glory is a gem, and needs to be encouraged as a role model. Watch out any woman who has thoughts of living in a world without them. Your drains will not get fixed.


Back to top      


Kafka
Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 317
Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 4:50 am    Post subject:    

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What's Beste's relationship to she that cannot be named least she troll your board for umpteenth days? I'm asking because Beste historically has come in to do that sort of thing, and take each side of the argument as it fits her that cannot be named agenda of the day.

Back to top      


Beste
Joined: 08 Apr 2004
Posts: 83
Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 7:15 am    Post subject:    

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kafka wrote:
What's Beste's relationship to she that cannot be named least she troll your board for umpteenth days? I'm asking because Beste historically has come in to do that sort of thing, and take each side of the argument as it fits her that cannot be named agenda of the day.


You do realise that you giving yourself away by posting this? And that she who that cannot be named might come down to get you.

You should stick to the topic at hand. What do you think of the article?

Back to top      

--------------------------------------------------------------------

My bold above.

I've got my suspicions, because I've already had a bizarre thing with Kafka and Wendy.  Subject to Wendy's revisions and bannings.

But there are questions upon questions ....

1) How does this tie in with Dan's theory of the conspiracy with the Council on Foreign Relations and the Illuminati?  (LOL - kind of kidding).

2) Why is Kafka so motivated for certain issues?

3) I think I know the "person who won't be named".  But I'll wait for a possible comment from Beste.

4) Why don't we ever see Kafka and Wendy together?????  LOL


You should also note that the thread has now.......**DRUM ROLL***

Disappeared
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: The Gonzman on Jan 23, 2005, 03:40 PM
I had intended to leave this alone.

I don't much care for the studied obtuseness and semantic, nit-picky, passive-agressive ad hominem which passes for civilized debate at that place.  Far too often rules as to "how" one may speak wind up being used to squelch "what" you may say.  In real life I'm an advocate for the right to yell "Fire" in a crowded theatre - and I'm also an advocate for the right of someone to beat you senseless for doing it.

IOW, by all means burn the flag and define it as speech.  Someone else may also define their actions of giving you a blanket party as speech too.

This latest gets my goat:

Quote from: "Wendy McElroy"

Wendy McElroy  Site Owner  Joined: 25 Mar 2004  Posts: 776
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 11:45 am    Post subject: THE INNER SANCTUM...A MORE PRIVATE SPACE    

In response both to recent attacks on the ifeminists BB and to requests by members, the Inner Sanctum has now been created to provide a more private and civil space for discussion and constructive disputation. If you wish to join the new forum, please send an email to [email protected] or PM either Brad or me. Membership is open only to posters who are already members of the more public BB who have a track record of civility.

See you in new forum!
Wendy McElroy


Now, first, it's the perfect right of anyone to pay for domain hosting, install what software they will, like a BBS, and open it to as narrow or wide a group as possible, define relevant terms for discussion, and what level of open discourse they will allow.

However, it's disingenuous in the extreme, not to mention intellectually dishonest, to call for "Open Debate" of issues, and then squelch that debate if it isn't going in the direction one wants it to.  It's called stacking the deck.  It's cheating.  And it's creepy.

Wendy can do as she wishes.  If she were honest about it, though, she'd admit that some of the "attacks" are criticisms hitting a little too close to home for her and Brad's Taste, they are running out of rationalizations, and they want a place for them and such fawning toadys and syncophants which can continue their mutual backpatting and mental masturbation society.

And the whiney fucks who want a safe space are nothing more than mental midgets and intellectual cowards who really want a place to spew nonsense without fear of being challenged on it

Quote from: "Brad R"
Brad R   Site Admin   Joined: 25 Mar 2004  Posts: 585
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 12:48 pm    Post subject:    Reply with quote

Further information about the "Inner Sanctum": many of you have already been added to this private group. You should receive a PM from me, and an email from the forum software. (I didn't know about the emails, or I would have skipped the PMs. New members will only get emails.)


Well, Brad's always been a dumbfuck over there, and anyone who is a site admin who doesn't know how the software works isn't worth a bag of sour owl shit.

Quote from: "Brad R"
If you have not been added already, and you think you should have been, please don't take offense. We just added the first names that came to mind, and I know there are a lot of civil and constructive posters that we overlooked in the rush. To request admission, send me a PM or an email at [email protected] .


Translation:  We're having a hissy, and we know this is pretty much going to turn into a meltdown, with people leaving the board in droves.  We don't have the cojones to outright ban the people who disagree with us, and as we're being watched don't want to go that way.

So what we are going to do is select the loayal lapdogs, and then I guess we'll see which of the rest of you sheep are going to stick around and tolerate having a second class status here; if you suck up enough, we'll let you into the Super-Secret Club and give you your password and IFeminists decoder ring.

Quote from: "Brad R"
The main criterion for admission is "we enjoy reading your posts." So if you get turned down, it doesn't mean you're uncivil or about to be banned, just that something about your style, your conduct, or your message is abrasive. That's why we have an open forum. (That does not mean that we welcome abusive or hostile posts on the open forum, however.)


"we enjoy reading your posts." = "You mindlessly follow and toe the party line, and don't ever dare suggest what we say may not be prophecy revealed from heaven."

"Also, since we don't want to do mass bannings of people, if you are turned down, we're going to see if you can be bullied into agreeing with us."

Quote from: "Brad R"
If you're new to this forum, the way to get admitted to the private section is to establish a track record of civil and reasonable discourse on the open forum. It's not our intention to move all discussion to the private section; and of course you're free to start a new topic in the open forum to discuss matters of interest to you.


Well, Brad, it may not be your intention - which I doubt - but even assuming you've managed to kid yourself into believing that it's true, it's what you are going to wind up with.


You know - just fucking admit it's the Wendy Mac Fan Club BBS, and be done with it, okay?  It's an honest move that can be respected.  This is transparent horseshit.  I'm not even going to bother to scan the fucking thing anymore for the tidbits of insight, it's so damn worthless.

Jesus H.

Steve Beene is right.  It's time to get over this whole Wendy thing.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Jan 23, 2005, 03:40 PM
Quote from: "Beste"
You should also note that the thread has now.......**DRUM ROLL***

Disappeared


We all just imagined it, Beste.

I'm (seriously) not going to do anything more on her Kingdom --- I'm officially against her.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Jan 23, 2005, 03:43 PM
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Róss on Jan 23, 2005, 04:07 PM
Cut off her money from Fox News, and her tune may suddenly change.

Maybe a Country Western Welfare tune.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Dr. Feelgood on Jan 23, 2005, 05:47 PM
Quote from: "LSBeene"
This thread has gone on for 18 pages ...

is it possible we're all just a little bit obsessed?

Steven


Are you obsessed, Beene? What does that mean, anyway? Does that mean you have a problem with this thread? Why? What would you like to see happen here? What dog do you have in this? You know I am with this thread all the way, I am not against anyone in it but it seems some have adapted to Wendys style of telling others how not to yell while doing so at the top of their fucking voice. :roll:

Write a long post bitching about the place after you tell others to get over it, then end it with...gee, I agree with Beene...

Well no shit, we all agree but it isn't only your fucking opinion that should be offered here. Note that all those who bitch about this thread halt at nothing to offer their 2 cents.

Jesus H is right, egos are fucking incurable. :roll:
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: LSBeene on Jan 23, 2005, 07:09 PM
Dr F,

I wasn't, that I saw, invoking my ego at all.

I was just pointing out that it seems that this thread, one of the longest in SYG history, is about another board.

Yes, I agree with some of the valid things said, I also think we're obsessing about Wendy, her board, and in some cases being as nit picky as what is being decried.

Heck, we often post lines from other boards to show stuff, I'm just surprised this thread has gotten so much milage.

It was just a comment.  :D

Steven
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Dr. Feelgood on Jan 23, 2005, 07:17 PM
Quote from: "LSBeene"
Dr F,

I wasn't, that I saw, invoking my ego at all.

I was just pointing out that it seems that this thread, one of the longest in SYG history, is about another board.

Yes, I agree with some of the valid things said, I also think we're obsessing about Wendy, her board, and in some cases being as nit picky as what is being decried.

Heck, we often post lines from other boards to show stuff, I'm just surprised this thread has gotten so much milage.

It was just a comment.  :D

Steven


Never to worry, your boy Gonzokid made a Wendy thread of his own you can protest over.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: The Gonzman on Jan 23, 2005, 08:36 PM
Ya know, Steven, someone who bothered to read and not seek for ways to get his knickers in a knot might get clued in that getting over Wendy refers to the Men's Movement in general with kissing up to any woman who throws a tidbit of talking the talk our way, while refusing to walk the walk.

We don't miss Amber a damn bit, do we?  Haven't seen her stuff on MND and we get along just peachy without her.  I think we could live without Wendy if the price is kissing her ass and giving her a veto on the steering committee
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Double Jeopardy on Jan 24, 2005, 08:40 PM
She sure does threaten you for some reason, you want us all to lay back and be careful.....or at least that is your line of the day. :roll:

People are reading, Gonzokid. People are reading you loud and clear. Keep talking.
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: wetpaint on Jan 31, 2005, 12:44 PM
the latest news.

http://www.ifeminists.net/interaction/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2471

"Members of the BB deserve to know why I have been and will be absent from discussion and posting. The systematic and unceasing harassment conducted by certain masculinists has been sufficiently vicious and pervasive -- spilling over from the BB into more personal realms -- that I have decided it is best to withdraw."

_____________
Title: iFeminism is a scam
Post by: Galt on Jan 31, 2005, 02:29 PM
She's a manipulator.  Times five.