Scientist Wins Male Contraceptive Grant
Fri Oct 14, 8:20 PM ET
NORFOLK, Va. - A Norfolk State University researcher who has worked nearly 20 years to create a male contraceptive will share in a $3.6 million grant to help him further his work.
The funding for Joseph C. Hall's research is from the National Institutes of Health.
The grant, Hall said, will bring to his research the world of "computer-assisted drug design" to speed the time he can produce compounds for testing.
The grant, distributed over five years, will support Norfolk State's Center for Biotechnology and Biomedical Sciences, which Hall directs.
Hall's research, which has received money from the National Science Foundation, seeks to blunt sperm's ability to fertilize eggs. His focus is the enzyme that penetrates the sugar coating that surrounds the egg. He is seeking a compound that can bind to the enzyme, deactivating the sperm.
While Hall has reached a solid success rate of 92 percent, he wants his contraceptive to be 100 percent foolproof. He expects the final product to be in the form of a patch.
The university's first NIH grant in 13 years will also will be used on protein research, which could improve cancer treatments; add at least a handful of faculty positions; and provide opportunities for students and faculty members to collaborate with their counterparts at Eastern Virginia +Medical+ School and the University of Virginia.
"So often, Norfolk State has had to be the school that follows new leads that come up in generally established programs," said Hall, an associate professor of chemistry. "We decided to take an initiative role and be a leader for a change."
By supporting the emerging field of computer-assisted drug design, the NIH grant will help Hall make and test compounds more quickly.
"Right now, at the rate I'm going, synthesizing one compound at a time, it would take me five to six years to test to get the right one," Hall told The Virginian-Pilot. "This will shorten the time to six months or a year."
The grant also will pay for new supplies and equipment, lab renovations and training and travel for researchers, said Sandra J. DeLoatch, the dean of the School of Science and Technology.
"For undergraduates, it's tremendous," she said. "It allows us to provide very valuable research experience to students to hopefully motivate them to go to graduate school to continue their studies."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051015/ap_on_he_me/male_contraceptive_2
Scientist Wins Male Contraceptive Grant
Fri Oct 14, 8:20 PM ET
NORFOLK, Va. - A Norfolk State University researcher who has worked nearly 20 years to create a male contraceptive will share in a $3.6 million grant to help him further his work.
The funding for Joseph C. Hall's research is from the National Institutes of Health.
The grant, Hall said, will bring to his research the world of "computer-assisted drug design" to speed the time he can produce compounds for testing.
The grant, distributed over five years, will support Norfolk State's Center for Biotechnology and Biomedical Sciences, which Hall directs.
Hall's research, which has received money from the National Science Foundation, seeks to blunt sperm's ability to fertilize eggs. His focus is the enzyme that penetrates the sugar coating that surrounds the egg. He is seeking a compound that can bind to the enzyme, deactivating the sperm.
While Hall has reached a solid success rate of 92 percent, he wants his contraceptive to be 100 percent foolproof. He expects the final product to be in the form of a patch.
The university's first NIH grant in 13 years will also will be used on protein research, which could improve cancer treatments; add at least a handful of faculty positions; and provide opportunities for students and faculty members to collaborate with their counterparts at Eastern Virginia +Medical+ School and the University of Virginia.
"So often, Norfolk State has had to be the school that follows new leads that come up in generally established programs," said Hall, an associate professor of chemistry. "We decided to take an initiative role and be a leader for a change."
By supporting the emerging field of computer-assisted drug design, the NIH grant will help Hall make and test compounds more quickly.
"Right now, at the rate I'm going, synthesizing one compound at a time, it would take me five to six years to test to get the right one," Hall told The Virginian-Pilot. "This will shorten the time to six months or a year."
The grant also will pay for new supplies and equipment, lab renovations and training and travel for researchers, said Sandra J. DeLoatch, the dean of the School of Science and Technology.
"For undergraduates, it's tremendous," she said. "It allows us to provide very valuable research experience to students to hopefully motivate them to go to graduate school to continue their studies."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051015/ap_on_he_me/male_contraceptive_2
Thank you for posting this, Ike.
looks like things are finally moving...
Science has already discovered a male birth, and life control, but it hasn't reached the proper critical morass, but is getting closer every day.
Univ. Berkeley just announced the discovery of the heaviest element yet known to science. The new element has been named "Governmentium".
Governmentium has one neutron, 12 assistant neutrons, 75 deputy neutrons, and 224 assistant deputy neutrons, giving it an atomic mass of 312. These 312 particles are held together by forces called morons, which are surrounded by vast quantities of lepton-like particles called peons.
When catalyzed with money, Governmentium becomes Administratium, an element which radiates just as much energy, since it has half as many peons, but twice as many morons.
Since Governmentium has no electrons, it is inert. It can be detected, however, as it impedes every reaction with which it comes into contact. A reaction that normally takes one minute or less will require a week or more if contaminated by any Governmentium.
The half-life of Governmentium is 4 years. It does not, however, decay, but instead undergoes a reorganization in which a portion of the assistant neutrons and deputy neutron exchange places. In fact, Governmentium's mass will actually increase over time, since each reorganization will cause more morons to become neutrons, forming isodopes. The characteristic of moron-promotion leads some scientists to believe that Governmentium is formed whenever morons reach a certain quantity in concentration.
This hypothetical quantity is called "Critical Morass".
:wink:
I can't wait for male birth control! Mostly because my wife often blames her moodiness on her birth control pills. When I can take pills, I will.
While most men (and women) will probably welcome male contraceptives, radical feminists will attack it because it will be one more way men will control women's reproductive rights or something. I also wonder what the reaction from Christian conservatives will be.
I thought paternity fraud and all the anti-father bias was as good a contraceptive as any.
I can't wait for male birth control! Mostly because my wife often blames her moodiness on her birth control pills. When I can take pills, I will.
Sethay, if you would take male birth control instead of your wife, YOU will be the one having moodiness problems.
The male birth control will have similar side-effects as female birth control.
While most men (and women) will probably welcome male contraceptives, radical feminists will attack it because it will be one more way men will control women's reproductive rights or something.
I disagree. I think feminists will embrace male birth control with open arms.
Here in the Netherlands, feminists can't wait for the male birth control.
I can't wait for male birth control! Mostly because my wife often blames her moodiness on her birth control pills. When I can take pills, I will.
Sethay, if you would take male birth control instead of your wife, YOU will be the one having moodiness problems.
The male birth control will have similar side-effects as female birth control.
And, as I predicted over a year ago, when such things as the "male pill" become closer to reality, expect all sorts of nonsense and wild-eyed chicken little propaganda about all the horrible side effects it will have on men.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3543478/
"Brown has been taking hormonal contraceptives for more than a year. He reports no problems with weight gain or acne, two side effects that occurred in earlier versions of MHCs tested in the 1990s."
Your information is about 15 years out of date, dude.
While most men (and women) will probably welcome male contraceptives, radical feminists will attack it because it will be one more way men will control women's reproductive rights or something.
I disagree. I think feminists will embrace male birth control with open arms.
Here in the Netherlands, feminists can't wait for the male birth control.
Funny - here in the states it is frantically pooh-poohed. Wonder why?
I can't wait for male birth control! Mostly because my wife often blames her moodiness on her birth control pills. When I can take pills, I will.
Sethay, if you would take male birth control instead of your wife, YOU will be the one having moodiness problems.
The male birth control will have similar side-effects as female birth control.
Even if it does make me moody, I don't care. One of us has to take them...
I would rather be moody myself, then have to deal with her being moody! :wink:
Even if it does make me moody, I don't care. One of us has to take them...
I would rather be moody myself, then have to deal with her being moody!
Chances are that the side effects of the male pill will be even larger than those of the female pill because the male pill uses female hormons which the male body, obviously, is not accustomed to. Then somehow they try to balance it again with injecting more male hormons. I can image that this playing with the balance of your hormon-level will create many side-effects.
The female pill simply uses female hormons. The female body is obviously accustomed to this hormone, so I think it makes sense this will create less side-effects.
Personally, I don't care much of the male pill. To me it is simply another blow for us men next to all the other "blows" men are confronted with at the moment, and it will be much a relief for women, So women win and men will lose. Like I said, I see it more like another burden for men.
It might benefit a proportion of men however I believe for the majority of men it will be nothing more than another burden.
However we had this discussion already, so I guess it is not much use to start it all over again.
Chances are that the side effects of the male pill will be even larger than those of the female pill because the male pill uses female hormons which the male body, obviously, is not accustomed to. Then somehow they try to balance it again with injecting more male hormons. I can image that this playing with the balance of your hormon-level will create many side-effects.
Imagine is the operative word. We have a Bullshit, disinformation, and propaganda alert here on you. What is your medical degree that you can "imagine" in the face of overwhelming scientific evidence that completely contradicts your imaginings?
REALITY CHECK
And, as I predicted over a year ago, when such things as the "male pill" become closer to reality, expect all sorts of nonsense and wild-eyed chicken little propaganda about all the horrible side effects it will have on men.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3543478/
"Brown has been taking hormonal contraceptives for more than a year. He reports no problems with weight gain or acne, two side effects that occurred in earlier versions of MHCs tested in the 1990s."
Your information is about 15 years out of date, dude.
The female pill simply uses female hormons. The female body is obviously accustomed to this hormone, so I think it makes sense this will create less side-effects.
And the male pill uses male hormones. And men and women both produce male and female hormones. So BOTh sexes are "used" to those hormones being naturally present.
Personally, I don't care much of the male pill. To me it is simply another blow for us men next to all the other "blows" men are confronted with at the moment, and it will be much a relief for women, So women win and men will lose. Like I said, I see it more like another burden for men.
It might benefit a proportion of men however I believe for the majority of men it will be nothing more than another burden.
Yes, choice and control over your life is such a "burden." Having the means at hand to not be trapped into unwanted fatherhood is such a "burden." I guess it's much less of a burden to be sucked into twenty some odd years - maybe even thirty (in some states, you can be stuck with post graduate bills as long as the child stays in college without dropping out) of child support for a child you are hardly allowed to see.
It's a burden, you mean, for the lazy and gutless.
Your response is very typical of feminists. And you had the nerve to accuse Indiana Jones of being a troll.
However we had this discussion already, so I guess it is not much use to start it all over again.
So stop with your inaccurate and outdated information, lies, propaganda, and untruths and you won't start it up again.
Gonzokid, I am a masculist just like you guys.
However I don't agree with some of the people here who embrace the male pill.
To say you have a bullshit, disinformation, and propaganda alert here on me makes me feel like a child and I find this rather insulting. I don't appreciate this at all.
I am a 100% masculist however I don't agree with some of you guys' ideas of the male pill. I already have explained why in the previous threads about the male pill so I don't want to fall in repetition here.
to reply to your comment (well more like an attack):
What is your medical degree that you can "imagine" in the face of overwhelming scientific evidence that completely contradicts your imaginings?
There is no scientific evidence Gonzo. The male pill is far from being complete and that is why it is impossible to say what the side-effects might be.
It took years before it came clear for the female pill what the side effects were, so the long-run side effects for the male pill simply can not be known yet.
Of course the people who manufacture this product will say that it is 100% safe, but those are the people actually selling and promoting their product so of course they will never say it has side-effects.
That is also what they said about cigarettes in the beginning. It was safe, and they never admitted it could cause health problems. Till years later when they simply couldn't keep on lying anymore.
You can bet your ass that the male pill WILL have side effects, just like the female pill, however how severe this may be and what exactly are these side effects simply can not be told yet. So don't be fooled by these people who say there are no side effects.
In the article mainly one man is mentioned.
He was taking the male pill one yr. That is no way enough to state that there are no long-term effects. Also it is just ONE man, so this really doesn't say anything. It is a sample of 1 person, statistically this doesn't prove anything. It is even laughable that they only use comments of one person. There could have been persons that DID have side effects and they could simply have chosen not to interview them.
Also the person mentioned DID actually say there were side effects:
"I may have put on a little weight"
"It seemed like I was getting headaches and then there were times when I woke up sweating at night and I had to change my shirt."
And the male pill uses male hormones. And men and women both produce male and female hormones. So BOTh sexes are "used" to those hormones being naturally present.
I knew somebody would say something about this. Yes the male body also produces female hormons but MUCH MUCH less than women.
And yes women also produce male hormons but 20 times (!) less than men.
At the moment it seems that there are being developed multiple male birth control methods. In previous articles they mentioned, especially with the implants, that they would use female hormons and later this would be "corrected" again with extra male hormons. Seems to me this is simply juggling with hormons and this can't be much good.
Well here they mention they (also) use testosterone. Well like I said, it seems there will be multiple methods. However adding extra hormons simply can't be good in the first place.
My information is not inaccurate. I get it from recent articles and I know one or two things about male and female anatomy.
My information is not outdated. I use information from articles recently published.
Those are not lies. Unless the articles are using lies. It is simply something you don't share but that doesn't make it lies.
The way you are reacting is simply because we don't agree. That doesn't mean you can accuse me of spreading lies or inaccurate information.
I have said it in the other treads also: Theoretically the male pill might benefit men. However in practise I don't see it happening (much). Also many men are simply not waiting for it and they couldn't care less.
Like I said, it might benefit SOME men but for most men it will indeed be a n extra burden (just like many women experience it at the moment, they don't see it as power, but more a burden and many women wish they could transfer this burden to men. However most women will not trust their husbands / bfs for taking the male pill so chances are the majority of women will STILL use the female pill. Here there was a survey recently that said the majority of men thought the male pill was a good thing (a welcome), however to me this is simply giving a PC comment because if you would say the male pill is not a nice welcome you would be considered a sexist. But then it turned out only 17% of men would be willing to ACTUALLY use the male pill AND, maybe even more surprisingly only 15% of women would trust their spouses using the male pill. So only 15% of women were prepared to transfer the pill to men.)
Something similar is also mentioned in the article several times:
Forty-year-old Scott Hardin says he's glad that men may soon have a new choice when it comes to birth control. But, he adds, he would not even consider taking a male hormonal contraceptive.
... but [a lot of men] are wary of taking any type of hormones.
But will men take it? ... some say only if their partners make them, and other say they would never even consider it.
Yes I agree. I think many men who actually would take the male pill will be MADE (sort or less) by their spouses. This would prove that for such men the male pill is indeed a burden otherwise their spouses wouldn't have to "force" them. I think these men are more than happy their wives / gfs would take the pill.
Look this is where I disagree with you guys (at least the ones who have reacted). You see the male pill as power. I say: most men (the majority) don't think like you guys do. They don't care about it. To them it is just a burden.
Anyway, I really don't want to continue this "debate". We have had 3 threads about this not so long agao, and I think enough has been said in these 3 threads.
Also, if I am really being watched I don't appreciate this at all. This is a board where everybody can say what they want. Just because I disagree with some of you guys on ONE topic doesn't mean you have the right to watch my every move. If this is the way I will be treated at this board, like a baby, I am not sure if I want to continue posting here.
Anyway, I really don't want to continue this "debate". We have had 3 threads about this not so long agao, and I think enough has been said in these 3 threads.
And I believe you are mistaken!
Also, if I am really being watched I don't appreciate this at all. This is a board where everybody can say what they want. Just because I disagree with some of you guys on ONE topic doesn't mean you have the right to watch my every move. If this is the way I will be treated at this board, like a baby, I am not sure if I want to continue posting here.
Actually,
I watch you for what yoou've posted on several subjects.(flattering isn't it?)
Feel free to not defend your views, to not accept that others may disagree with you, and
post where your offerings will not be scrutinized.
Enjoying respect from ones peers is far superior to demanding it!
Feel free to not defend your views
I already defended my views in those three threads. This wasn't so long ago.
I said everything I wanted to say in those 3 threads so I don't see why it is helpful to keep repeating myself on this topic.
to not accept that others may disagree with you
I could say the same thing to the people who disagree with me. THEY don't seem to accept the fact that people disagree with them.
and post where your offerings will not be scrutinized
I understand that my offeerings are scrutinized just like I sometimes scrutinize offerings of people. I also have defended the scrutinization, again, in those other three threads.
I don't demand respect from anybody. I am just posting here every now and then because I feel like it. I like to discuss things when it comes down to men's rights and issues or the glorifying nature of regarding women nowadays. I am not asking for respect. I just like to discuss or post something every now and then. If I may or may not get respect with what I do, that is a second priority to me. I think respect is something to builds up gradually anyway, and you might get it unintentionally (or not).
I find it childish that you watch my postings. I really don't have anything to prove to you (or others) but if it makes you happy then by all means be my guest.
Gonzokid, I am a masculist just like you guys.
However I don't agree with some of the people here who embrace the male pill.
Well, a masculist is a reverse feminist. I embrace radical equality - which means if need be shoving the bad with the good down feminist throats
To say you have a bullshit, disinformation, and propaganda alert here on me makes me feel like a child and I find this rather insulting. I don't appreciate this at all.
I am a 100% masculist however I don't agree with some of you guys' ideas of the male pill. I already have explained why in the previous threads about the male pill so I don't want to fall in repetition here.
to reply to your comment (well more like an attack):
Go ahead and call it an attack. It is. You are drinking the Kool-Aid, and need to be woke up.
There is no scientific evidence Gonzo. The male pill is far from being complete and that is why it is impossible to say what the side-effects might be.
It took years before it came clear for the female pill what the side effects were, so the long-run side effects for the male pill simply can not be known yet.
This is because the female pill was rushed to market. The male pill has been held up -
largely at feminist urging[/i][/u] - for twenty years.
How far you going to move those goalposts for long term studies?
Of course the people who manufacture this product will say that it is 100% safe, but those are the people actually selling and promoting their product so of course they will never say it has side-effects.
That is also what they said about cigarettes in the beginning. It was safe, and they never admitted it could cause health problems. Till years later when they simply couldn't keep on lying anymore.
Fallacy of composition.
You can bet your ass that the male pill WILL have side effects, just like the female pill, however how severe this may be and what exactly are these side effects simply can not be told yet. So don't be fooled by these people who say there are no side effects.
Aspirin and penicillin have side effects. Early nineties. 15 years, and we are just entering clinical trials. We have cough drops that aren't tested this thoroughly.
In the article mainly one man is mentioned.
He was taking the male pill one yr. That is no way enough to state that there are no long-term effects. Also it is just ONE man, so this really doesn't say anything. It is a sample of 1 person, statistically this doesn't prove anything. It is even laughable that they only use comments of one person. There could have been persons that DID have side effects and they could simply have chosen not to interview them.
Any evidence to support this assertion? Didn't think so - it's fear-mongering and scare tactics. Appeal to fear, appeal to consequences, argument from ignorance.
Also the person mentioned DID actually say there were side effects:
"I may have put on a little weight"
"It seemed like I was getting headaches and then there were times when I woke up sweating at night and I had to change my shirt."
I get worse side effects from Ny-Quil.
I knew somebody would say something about this. Yes the male body also produces female hormons but MUCH MUCH less than women.
And yes women also produce male hormons but 20 times (!) less than men.
And? Such hormones are used to regulate fertility - just like the body does. Your argument clearly implied such birth control was "natural" for women, and somehow artificial and unnatural for men. False analogy.
At the moment it seems that there are being developed multiple male birth control methods. In previous articles they mentioned, especially with the implants, that they would use female hormons and later this would be "corrected" again with extra male hormons. Seems to me this is simply juggling with hormons and this can't be much good.
I see. It "seems." No facts, just fear.
Well here they mention they (also) use testosterone. Well like I said, it seems there will be multiple methods. However adding extra hormons simply can't be good in the first place.
Yeah, right.
"Well, I see here that oops, I was wrong and was talking out of my arse. So I'll still joust at the straw man I have set up. It can't be good, because it is desperate;ly important to me that I not be responsible for myself so I can continue to blame the world for my problems instead of doing for myself."My information is not inaccurate. I get it from recent articles and I know one or two things about male and female anatomy.
My information is not outdated. I use information from articles recently published.
Those are not lies. Unless the articles are using lies. It is simply something you don't share but that doesn't make it lies.
It's misinformation. It's blowing things out of proportion. It's your failure to think critically and present all evidence, and moreso, to present out of date evidence from preliminary exploration as modern fact that is false.
I don't know what else to call willfully supplying false information besides a "lie."
The way you are reacting is simply because we don't agree. That doesn't mean you can accuse me of spreading lies or inaccurate information.
Well, when you tell slanted untruths and present inaccurate information.... Ain't my fault your mind is made up and you refuse to be confused by facts.
I have said it in the other treads also: Theoretically the male pill might benefit men.
So let's not even give it a try, and make failure CERTAIN instead of merely possible? Well, that makes a lot of sense.
However in practise I don't see it happening (much). Also many men are simply not waiting for it and they couldn't care less.
Since I have all my limbs, I'm not waiting for advancements in prosthetics. And?
Like I said, it might benefit SOME men but for most men it will indeed be a n extra burden (just like many women experience it at the moment, they don't see it as power, but more a burden and many women wish they could transfer this burden to men.
I see. Since some stupid women don't want to be in control of their lives, men should be equally as stupid. Well, I guess that's equality in a twisted way.
However most women will not trust their husbands / bfs for taking the male pill so chances are the majority of women will STILL use the female pill.
It's not FOR women. It's for men. It's for taking control of your own reproduction and not relying on the woman to do so. Bully if the woman is responsible for her own self. That's not excuse to not be responsible for your own self.
Here there was a survey recently that said the majority of men thought the male pill was a good thing (a welcome), however to me this is simply giving a PC comment because if you would say the male pill is not a nice welcome you would be considered a sexist.
So those of us here at SYG - in fact the very vast and very overwhelming majority of us here at SYG - who disagree with you on this are just saying so because we're politically correct, and holding our opinion for show.
I see. And *I'M* an asshat.
But then it turned out only 17% of men would be willing to ACTUALLY use the male pill
Well, let's see - if I was a man with a vasectomy - which I am - I wouldn't use the pill. If I were a man wanting more children, I wouldn't use the pill. If I were a man who had a trustworthy wife who didn't want kids and was taking the pill for herself, I wouldn't spend money on redundant birth control. I wouldn't take the male pill if my partner were sterile.
I can think of a lot of reasons not to take it. That mere stat says absolutely nothing, let alone proves anything.
AND, maybe even more surprisingly only 15% of women would trust their spouses using the male pill. So only 15% of women were prepared to transfer the pill to men.)
So? Gee, what a shock. Women aren't ready to cede equal say and control over reproduction to men. Hmm, wonder why? Oh yeah, if they don't have total control over it, they can't use it to exercise power over men - heck, they might even be forced to negotiate with a mere male as an equal.
Besides, I don't recall the survey done here even mentioning such a thing in the above two statements, anyway. And I just looked up that survey. You got a link to something I missed here, or is it just more made up statistics?
Something similar is also mentioned in the article several times:
Forty-year-old Scott Hardin says he's glad that men may soon have a new choice when it comes to birth control. But, he adds, he would not even consider taking a male hormonal contraceptive.
... but [a lot of men] are wary of taking any type of hormones.
But will men take it? ... some say only if their partners make them, and other say they would never even consider it.
Some men won't take vitamins. Some men won't use aftershave. Some men won't eat turnips. Some men won't wear sweaters. Some men won't drink beer. And so on, and so forth, yadda, yadda, yadda, etc. etc. ad nauseum, ad infinitum.
Any other irrelevancies and non sequiteurs you'd like to cite? Shall we ban all the above things? Stop growing turnips? Stop manufacturing sweaters?
Yes I agree. I think many men who actually would take the male pill will be MADE (sort or less) by their spouses.
Any man who could be *MADE* to take the male pill is worthless and weak, and needs to have his testicles revoked. Their weak-sister attitude shouldn't even make the radar and you should be ashamed to even consider it. They are a disgrace to manhood.
This would prove that for such men the male pill is indeed a burden otherwise their spouses wouldn't have to "force" them. I think these men are more than happy their wives / gfs would take the pill.
I'm not concerned in the least that weak-willed simpering, pussy-whipped milquetoast pseudo-men would be "burdened."
Look this is where I disagree with you guys (at least the ones who have reacted). You see the male pill as power. I say: most men (the majority) don't think like you guys do. They don't care about it. To them it is just a burden.
And that attitude needs to be condemned and corrected. Real men take charge of their lives, and don't regard the means to do so as a burden.
Anyway, I really don't want to continue this "debate". We have had 3 threads about this not so long agao, and I think enough has been said in these 3 threads.
You stuck your nose in and stuck your neck out - if you don't want to talk about it - DON'T. Shut up. If you want to keep talking about it, keep on doing it. Your call.
Also, if I am really being watched I don't appreciate this at all.
Paranoid much? If you have anything besides hysteria and fear mongering on the horrible side-effects you warn of, by all means - present it. If all you have is frantic arm-waving and chicken little dire prophecies, though, expect to be called on it. That's not being watched. That's being challenged.
Now, accusing someone of being a feminist and demanding that they scan in writings and post them - that's watching someone.
This is a board where everybody can say what they want.
That includes disagree with you. You have no right to be unchallenged. Grow up.
Just because I disagree with some of you guys on ONE topic doesn't mean you have the right to watch my every move. If this is the way I will be treated at this board, like a baby, I am not sure if I want to continue posting here.
But it was good enough for you to treat Indiana Jones that way? That's called dishing it out but not taking it. It's nobody's problem but your own if your alligator mouth is writing checks your hummingbird ass can't cash.
Gonzo, you are trying to provoke me into a discussion. I already said what I wanted to say about the male pill in the other three threads. If you want information then look it up in these threads.
I refuse to go into a discussion again here.
Gonzo, you are trying to provoke me into a discussion. I already said what I wanted to say about the male pill in the other three threads. If you want information then look it up in these threads.
I refuse to go into a discussion again here.
And you're as wrong here as you are there. Like I said - if you don't want to talk about it - shut up. It's your call.
Look Gonzo, I believe you are wrong. I have explained already why I say that I believe you are wrong. I don't want to repeat myself again.
I have said clearly (!) why I believe you are wrong in those other three threads. I don't want to copy / paste myself here.
I like to talk about it and I have. Those 3 threads are very long threads and I explained myself clearly. I just don't like to repeat myself over and over again. For me this topic is closed (at least in this thread) because I don't see any new reason to continue about this again.
Telling me to shut up sounds very aggressive. It sounds more like an attack (again). I think you need to cool off a bit.
By the way, you wanted evidence of the statistics that I mentioned. Well here it is. Good luck with the Dutch.
(If you want to you can verify it by the Sad Guy)
I guess I was wrong about the men. A whopping 19% (!) are willing to actually use the male pill (instead of the 17% I mentioned).
(15% of the women are positive about the male pill and would actually be willing to transfer the pill to men (due to lack of trust, NOT lack of power. But of course you will say that all these women are lying and actually say this because they don't want to lose the "power" the pill gives them. BS. )).
http://www.planet.nl/planet/show/id=75098/contentid=465867/sc=e5e3c0
Weinig vertrouwen in mannenpil
Gepubliceerd op maandag 19 april 2004
Een man aan de anticonceptiepil moet kunnen. Dat vindt vier op de vijf Nederlanders van 18 jaar en ouder. Toch is de bereidheid om gebruik te maken van de mannenpil niet erg hoog. Zo blijkt uit gegevens van TNS NIPO.
Geboortebeperking
De farmaceutische industrie werkt al jaren aan de ontwikkeling van de mannenpil. Het zal nog wel zo'n vijf jaar duren voordat de pil op de markt komt, maar dan nog is het afwachten of er wel vraag naar is.
Het zijn vooral de vrouwen die sceptisch staan tegenover de pil voor mannen. Liever houden ze het heft zelf in handen. Uiteindelijk zullen zij voor de consequenties moeten opdraaien, als de pil niet of niet juist wordt ingenomen. Voor het onderzoek zijn 1032 Nederlanders van 18 jaar en ouder ondervraagd. Hieruit is naar voren gekomen dat 70 procent tussen de 18 en 34 jaar aan geboortebeperking doet. Van de Nederlanders van 18 jaar en ouder, zegt 36 procent een condoom of anticonceptiepil te gebruiken.
Overstap
De anticonceptie voor mannen, vindt 80 procent van de ondervraagden een goede zaak. De zogenaamde 'mannenpil' staat er aan te komen en zal net als de 'vrouwenpil' dagelijks moeten worden ingenomen, om zo een zwangerschap bij de partner te voorkomen. Slechts 12 procent vindt het geen goede zaak en negen procent heeft hier geen mening over. De meningen van mannen en vrouwen gaan ongeveer gelijk op.
Maar als het puntje bij het paaltje komt, blijkt slechts een kleine groep het anticonceptiemiddel daadwerkelijk te overwegen. Slechts 19 procent van de mannen en maar 15 procent van de vrouwen geeft aan positief te staan tegenover de mannenpil en zelfs zeker te zullen overstappen naar deze nieuwe vorm van anticonceptie.
Bronnen: TNS NIPO, ANP
Anyway, that is the last I want to say about the male pill at this thread.
(15% of the women are positive about the male pill and would actually be willing to transfer the pill to men (due to lack of trust, NOT lack of power.
It should have said
just 15% of women are positive about the male pill and would actually be willing to transfer the pill to men (due to lack of trust, NOT lack of power.
Gerard - You are making claims that the male birth control pill will have unwelcome side effects. What Gonzo and others are asking is that you offer some proof of this claim. Please post it or admit you don't have that proof.
Lastly, here is an article about a feminist (professor in gender studies) who can't wait for the male pill to be introduced. According to her:
It is now or never.Of course it is in Dutch but apparently you are eager for Dutch articles now.
http://www2.rnw.nl/rnw/nl/themes/wetenschap/mannenpil040316.html
Here is a picture of the "lovely" lady:
(http://www2.rnw.nl/assets/images/oudshoorn040316.jpg)
And this is how it will look like (at least one method):
(http://www2.rnw.nl/assets/images/male_contraception040316.jpg)
It says: it will be a implant with FEMALE hormons that will be implemented in the male's body (probably arm) and later there will be injections of male hormons (testosteron). In other words, it involves juggling with hormons which I doubt can be any good (i.e. side effects).
Also here is an interesting article about the male pill (in English):
http://www.frontlist.com/detail/0822331950
Also by a feminist (again).
Here is a very interesting part:
Initial interest in the male pill, she shows, came from outside the scientific community: from the governments of China and India, which were interested in population control, and from Western feminists, who wanted the responsibilities and health risks associated with contraception shared more equally between the sexes.
I have said it from the beginning, unlike what some of you guys have said, feminists WANT the male pill. They can't wait. Just another burden of women that can be shifted to men. You guys think too much in power. I wish I could agree with you guys, I really do, but I am looking through it from the practical / reality perspective, and here men don't see it as power.
You guys are too obsessed with the power idea that you are forgetting how things might turn out in REALITY for the AVERAGE man.
It is birth control RESPONSIBILITY. Not birth control POWER.
Just more "responsibility" / burden shifted towards men.
Gerard - You are making claims that the male birth control pill will have unwelcome side effects. What Gonzo and others are asking is that you offer some proof of this claim. Please post it or admit you don't have that proof.
E, the male pill WILL have side effects. Just like the female pill has side effects. IMO I would not be suprised if the side effects would be bigger since the male pill, at least in some forms, involves
literally juggling with hormons. A lot of female hormons which the male body is not accustomed to (at least not in such proportions).
Further in the article the man being interviewed also mentioned that there are indeed side effects:
"I may have put on a little weight"
"It seemed like I was getting headaches and then there were times when I woke up sweating at night and I had to change my shirt."
Further it is hard to prove (or disprove) that the male pill will have side effects because it hasn't even be introduced yet. I am sure when the female pill was being introduced nothing was known, or said, about the side effects of the female pill and years later the side effects slowly emerged, and the same will happen with the male pill.
Thus in conclusion, even though it is hard to prove (yet) that the male pill will or won't have side effects, I think it would not be unlikely that it WILL since the female pill also has several side effects.
I think it is (very) foolish to say that the male pill will not have any side effects, and further I don't believe anything from the people who develop the male pill because they will be the last people to admit that there will be side effects. Obviously, they will not trash down their own (selling) product.
This is so cool. I'm not sure why some would consider it a burden for men. It seems to me that it would be taking a lot of worry away. As it stands, men have three "choices". Abstinence, condoms or a vasectomy.
Karen
Anyway, that is the last I want to say about the male pill at this thread.
And how many postings later....
Side effects are inevitable with anything. Get a clue. You can't even eat broccoli without side effects, so you are setting an unreasonably high bar. Will they be long term? Will they be debilitating? Will they affect sexual function and fertility?
We're talking hormones, the same hormones which have been used in hormone therapy for DECADES. The same safe, no long term damage hormones. Now what they are doing is calculating dosages to achive temporary sterility without even minor side effects - Hell, Gerald, they have got, and have had for a long ass time the MAJOR ones licked.
Second - so what? One lone feminist wants it. Gee - I bet she thinks the sky is blue, too. Guess I better change my opinion. That's a classic ad hominem argument.
Wow. Only a few women are eager for this. Yeah - wonder why? Whine, snivel, and blubber about "Burdens" to the guy who got roped into marriage or child support by an unscrupulous woman who felt that having children was her choice alone. Or to the guy who got suckered into paying for another man's child by some slut who couldn't recall the meaning of the word "Faithful."
Tell you what, Gerald - you "Burdened" sad sacks willing to foot the bill for those guys? Where do we send the bill to? How much you throwing in to pay it? I got a friend right now paying $675 USD for three kids, two of which were "oops!" kids. Lemme see - divided by three is 225 - times two - that's $450 dollars, US. I trust you'll be putting your money where your mouth is and sending a monthly check to him so you don't have to be "burdened" with taking charge of your own life, mkay?
Didn't think so.
Now, you kept it going, so don't say you're "done with it" unless you intend to shut up about it. You keep spreading your weak-willed propaganda, I'll keep countering it.
Anyway, that is the last I want to say about the male pill at this thread.
And how many postings later....
Side effects are inevitable with anything. Get a clue. You can't even eat broccoli without side effects, so you are setting an unreasonably high bar. Will they be long term? Will they be debilitating? Will they affect sexual function and fertility?
We're talking hormones, the same hormones which have been used in hormone therapy for DECADES. The same safe, no long term damage hormones. Now what they are doing is calculating dosages to achive temporary sterility without even minor side effects - Hell, Gerald, they have got, and have had for a long ass time the MAJOR ones licked.
Second - so what? One lone feminist wants it. Gee - I bet she thinks the sky is blue, too. Guess I better change my opinion. That's a classic ad hominem argument.
Wow. Only a few women are eager for this. Yeah - wonder why? Whine, snivel, and blubber about "Burdens" to the guy who got roped into marriage or child support by an unscrupulous woman who felt that having children was her choice alone. Or to the guy who got suckered into paying for another man's child by some slut who couldn't recall the meaning of the word "Faithful."
Tell you what, Gerald - you "Burdened" sad sacks willing to foot the bill for those guys? Where do we send the bill to? How much you throwing in to pay it? I got a friend right now paying $675 USD for three kids, two of which were "oops!" kids. Lemme see - divided by three is 225 - times two - that's $450 dollars, US. I trust you'll be putting your money where your mouth is and sending a monthly check to him so you don't have to be "burdened" with taking charge of your own life, mkay?
Didn't think so.
Now, you kept it going, so don't say you're "done with it" unless you intend to shut up about it. You keep spreading your weak-willed propaganda, I'll keep countering it.
Plus the male reproductive system is more fragile than the female one. Its very easy to mess with the male system and have the male turn out either impotent or sterilized. Male testicles stop producing sperm under a lot of conditions. For example, men who have vasectomies pretty much lose the ability to produce sperm at all after anout 5 years. Even if the plumbing is restored they are sterile for life. So one big obstacle to a male birth control pill, patch or shot is that there's a big risk of sterility and impotance.
Even if the plumbing is restored they are sterile for life.
This is simply not true. It IS possible to be vertile again. One can even pregnate a woman, however chances are almost 50% smaller.
Here is the thing. It really should not be up to the drug companies or the feminists what goes on market. Quite frankly, so long as the buyer is aware of the side effects, it is his choice to take the medication or not. Many medications have serious side effects; the medication for a certain foot fungus will cause permanant liver damage in a certain percentage of cases. This fungus is not life threatening, mainly cosmetic, yet this side effect is an acceptable risk for many.
The only way for the male pill to get the funding it needs is to put a form out there are see what interest there is in it. The population of pill takers will form the database for the next round of studies and advances. That is how these things work. I do not think from what I have read that the risk is extremely high of these side effects. Just because the risk is too high for you, Gerard, it does not mean that it is too high for everyone else.
Quite frankly, Gerard, you have a tendancy to blow off activism projects, attack new members as feminist spies, and poo hoo new advances. I really do not think you are the person I would take advice from. But that is just my opinion.
I do not think from what I have read that the risk is extremely high of these side effects. Just because the risk is too high for you, Gerard, it does not mean that it is too high for everyone else.
I never said the risks are too high, BQ, and I never said this is the main reason not to use the male pill. I just wanted to point out there there WILL BE side effects, while some people here claim there will not be any side effects.
I don't blow off activism. I just would like to see the men's movement more effective and active in
real activism. Something that is lacking at the moment. I don't disapprove it, I just would like things to be a bit different as they are now since IMO the men's movement is not very much effective at the moment and this needs to change.
I only attacked IJ because I found his stories very remarkable and a bit unlikely for a 15 yr old boy who seems to have equal knowledge and equal ideas, etc as most adult men and women here. Also I was not the only one who thought like this. Roy seemed to think the same way, and in the other posts of IJ, there were more people who also found the whole thing a bit "fishy".
I wouldn't call the male pill a new advance. This is a point I disagree, and I already said in other theads why.
Honestly if you think about it. Do you think the men's movement is doing great at the moment? I would hardly say so. The men's movement at the moment is a small movement which is also mainly online. So to call it a movement might be hard to say. Feminism is still triumphing, though maybe less than it use to be but I would not claim this to be the cause of the men's movement. I would simply claim this because less and less women feel attracted to feminism and because maybe things have already been accomplished by feminism.
I am a pure masculist, and I wish the best for the men's movement, but IMO if it will ever be a serious movement it will have to do better than this.
I am not saying: quit, because it is useless.
I am saying: We need change, because the way things are going at the moment is not that great.
Anyway, this thread is about the male pill, not about the men's movement.
Well, I'll tell you what: Weak-will, spineless, pussy-whipped pseudo men who enjoy being ordered around by their little snip of a wife or girlfriend will still be able to do so even with the male pill. It won't hinder them in the least.
BUT - men who want to be able to be in charge of their own lives will be able to.
It's very strange to me why it is so important to you that those in the latter category not have this power, freedom, and choice.
I find this to be remarkable and unlikely for a self-professed masculist who claims to have the same desires of equal power and equal rights under the law that most men and women here do. It's fishy.
Maybe you need to write out your posts and scan them in so we know you are who you say you are, and not some feminist troll pretending to be one of us to disrupt the movement.
(Yes the first three paragraphs are serious. The last one is an example of how ridiculous you sound in the IndianaJones issue.)
Yes it is, however I do not think anyone would mind it morphing into a discussion of the movement overall.
I think that the movement is doing great. It is in it's infancy, and for how many people are aware of what is going on, and are willing to stand up and take action, we are making progress.
I do wish more were happening, therefor instead of bitching on-line that people's efforts are not good enough, I take action.
BTW, Roy does not put down others efforts. He is not what we are talking about here.
I submit once again, Gerard, what are you doing for the men's movement that gives you are right to criticize it?
I do believe that you must earn that right.
I just stuck my neck out today, and offered to spend real time helping a man falsely accused of molestation. It will take time, and means getting involved, but it is the right thing to do. We get nowhere by putting down ANY effort, no matter how small. This man may or may not benifit by my help, but at least I am trying.
When is the last time you put your hand out to a brother in need?
I have said it from the beginning, unlike what some of you guys have said, feminists WANT the male pill. They can't wait. Just another burden of women that can be shifted to men. You guys think too much in power. I wish I could agree with you guys, I really do, but I am looking through it from the practical / reality perspective, and here men don't see it as power. You guys are too obsessed with the power idea that you are forgetting how things might turn out in REALITY for the AVERAGE man.
It is birth control RESPONSIBILITY. Not birth control POWER.
Just more "responsibility" / burden shifted towards men.
Gerard, I think you're tilting at windmills here. Yes, some feminists seem rather gung ho about the male pill, and I can see why one would be suspicious. I'm sure some are that way because it means they could be less "burdened" with female birth control (which if they or anyone logically thinks it through, they're still burdened with the results if the bc fails, so a wise person if possible covers that angle with bc of their own).
I get your point and it is quite possible that many women will act that way and do view it that way, as that they will still have control sexually but not have to worry about birth control hazards/side effects, its just "another burden on the man, haha!". I just think its foolish to in response to that idea, effectively say, "screw you guys, I'm going home" and thus take your balls home. That does no good for men, its a cop out as it still gives them power and takes power from men. To say women are the only one's who bear a burden in reproduction/parenting is, folly of the highest order and ignorance of current realities. It may take time, education and plain ol getting the shit kicked out of oneself for more men to wake up, but they will. Those who don't, or don't care will pay for their choice.
Others, oh may actually want parity in responsibility (shock, horror, unthinkable I know) for birth control. Given that feminism's bread and butter during its existance has been "equality" (for women only these days*) they just might be more apt to support a male pill publically and then behind closed doors wail about how it will take away much of their powerbase in relationships aka the kids, reproduction choice and sex. Watch what they do, not what they say. Talk is cheap.
Power and responsibility are not antithetical here. Yes, many women like having the power of choice with no responsibility. So do many men I'm sure. In fact I think you do. I understand how you see the current "burden" of birth control swapping wholesale to men (and it currently being a burden solely to women is well, totally preposterous and ignorant as mentioned above) with a "male pill" because of many women's attitudes. I just don't see how you can wholesale deny the advantages a male birth control pill will bring to men who don't view it so much as a burden but as a benefit to them. They now have another choice, and with that choice comes...power. Power to not be controlled by a woman who has had all the control in the reproductive game. Whether one educates the "average" non-mra men on that new "power" of reproductive control or even if they view it as a burden, ultimately many will benefit.
*Debateable point conceded. Congnitive dissonance not withstanding for those feminists who publically dislike the male pill aka "how can you expect us to trust our man to take a pill?". "Good for the goose, good for the gander" or equality is of course not in their vocabulary.
GK, IJ wrote things that were kinda suspicious. I wasn't the only one who thought so, there were more people.
If my behaviour is very suspicious I would have gotten comments from the day I posted here, just like IJ, which was not the case.
Also I have mainly gotten complaints because I don't agree with you guys that the male pill will be THE greatest thing to men since I don't know when.
If I didn't disagreed with you guys, we wouldn't be in such a battle as the battle we are in right now.
I never said the male pill will be of no use to any men, all I have said is that the male pill will, on average, not be a great gift to men. It will benefit some men but it will not benefit many men.
BUT - men who want to be able to be in charge of their own lives will be able to.
Yes but how many men think like you and me do?? 2%, maybe 5% ??
My opinion is that many men do not think like you do, and thus such men will not have much benefit from such a pill. It will be "shoved down their troat" by their spouses (well this is a very extreme exaggeration but the point is that their spouses will "make" them, in one way or the other, to take the pill (e.g. by witholding sex, or simply to stay mad at her spouse, and many times women will win this battle from men. I say this in practical terms, i.e. what actually IS happening, not what COULD be happening (this is your point of view).
Just to give one example, I really don't want to go into this again.
You say that some men are forced into marriage because they got a baby which was unintended, or you say some men are forced to pay child support for a baby which is unintended.
These men are often idiots! Men who don't give two fucks about anything.
What makes you think they suddenly will use a male pill????
Most of these times such men are irresponsible and even if there was a male pill, it can be argued whether such men would use it. I believe most of such men will not.
So who are the men who will use the male pill??? My opinion is:
1) men like the men at this board, which is maybe 1 or 2% of men in total
2) Men who are married or who are in a steady relationship. In such a relationship often the woman doesn't want to have children of her own (at such a time) and if she does often she will discuss this with her spouse. However according to you women don't do this, according to you all women try to get pregnant behind their spouses' backs.
So it is a steady relationship in which neither wants to have children at the moment and instead of the woman being on the pill, now some men will also be on the pill. I believe this situation accounts for 60% of the men "allegable'' for using the male pill.
3) it might help bachelors as well. However most women don't want to take chances and will be on the pill themselves. Also a part of the men simply don't give a fuck or believe (or want to believe) the woman is on the pill, and the rest use condoms.
BQ wrote:
BTW, Roy does not put down others efforts. He is not what we are talking about here.
BQ, Roy was much more rude than I was when it comes to IJ, thank you very much. I tried to withold myself to a certain point.
Maybe I am not doing all great things like I could have but I can see what is wrong with the men's movement. To correct this, it will take a lot of time and effort, and right now I don't see the conditions being worth it, especially because I fear a lack of support as I have noticed, also in other cases.
So my opinion is, nobody will probably want to take the role of initiater because it will take a lot of time and efforts and one can question the outcome (i.e. will it be worth it?). Right now I am unsure about all this, and I wonder if this will ever change. Yes there might be some small progress, and this is great, but is this enough for the future. Is it enough to make the men's movement noticable and respected and being listened to? I wonder.
My opinion is, at the moment, I wonder if the men's movement will ever develop into an actual movement. Right now it seems it will stay an online movement.
I wish things could be different, I really do, but this is what I am seeing at the moment.
I submit once again, Gerard, what are you doing for the men's movement that gives you are right to criticize it?
I do believe that you must earn that right.
Are you asking that same question of other vocal critics of the men's movement on this site? I really do not need to name names.
One does not need any qualifications to criticize the men's movement, especially if it is in the wrong. The one who takes action is more valuable to the cause than a mere critic; I will grant you that.
Maybe I am not doing all great things like I could have but I can see what is wrong with the men's movement. To correct this, it will take a lot of time and effort, and right now I don't see the conditions being worth it, especially because I fear a lack of support as I have noticed, also in other cases.
So my opinion is, nobody will probably want to take the role of initiater because it will take a lot of time and efforts and one can question the outcome (i.e. will it be worth it?). Right now I am unsure about all this, and I wonder if this will ever change. Yes there might be some small progress, and this is great, but is this enough for the future. Is it enough to make the men's movement noticable and respected and being listened to? I wonder.
My opinion is, at the moment, I wonder if the men's movement will ever develop into an actual movement. Right now it seems it will stay an online movement.
I wish things could be different, I really do, but this is what I am seeing at the moment.
SO in other words, the men's movement is a mess, but you are not going to dirty your hands helping it. Good for you. And you are here why?
All movements started small. Every last one. They start with a few men or women in a room realizing there is a problem. Then it grows. Some movements take longer than others. We have never faced a problem like this in the history of the world.
IJ to me was ZERO threat. The worst that could happen was he was a feminist getting some advice she didn't want to hear.
You, on the other hand, are being a killjoy. You are a morale squasher.
If I had to pick between the two, a spy or a moral squasher, I would take the former every time. A spy will get bored because we are on the up and up, we have nothing to hide. You will encourage people to do nothing. You will bring others down to inactivity and discourage any activism.
Gerard, you did not answer my question. What are you personally doing that is any better or more important than those you critique? I want to hear you say it.
Are you asking that same question of other vocal critics of the men's movement on this site? I really do not need to name names.
If I saw anyone else saying that what individuals are doing is inconsequential and insignificant while doing NOTHING themselves, than yes, I would pose that same question. Did I miss someone?
I myself spoke of needing to put more effort out. That we had no business trying violence when we have not as a group tried anything else on a large scale. However, I AM doing things to help the movement. I put my money where my mouth is. On line and in real life.
Not everyone can do everything, including me. But I notice those who do the least, talk the most. THAT is my issue.
For a long time I did not do a whole lot in real life. I also did not go around claiming everyone who did was wasting their time.
BQ,
IJ to me was ZERO threat.
I never said IJ was a threat. I just questioned what he / she was saying was actually true.
Also, I am criticizing the men's movement not because I want to stop it or end it, but just to notify that IMO we need a (radical) change if we want to accomplish anything (serious) as a movement.
Yes I understand all movement start at the bottom. And I agree, I also agree there is some progress, small as it may be.
However all I am pointing out is that the way things are going now, it is simply no way near enough. We don't need to stop, we need to change.
OK, thanks, point made. Did you need anything or are you going to just keep flappin those lips?
Did I miss someone?
How about Devia, for example? What has she done to "earn her right" to criticize the men's movement as often as she has?
Look, people can criticize the men's movement if they wish to. No one needs a "right" to do it. If you have such a problem with people expressing criticism of it, why not just ignore the criticisms?
OK, thanks, point made. Did you need anything or are you going to just keep flappin those lips?
What kind of reply is this?? If you want to have a discussion then plz come up with some decent arguments.
How about Devia, for example? What has she done to "earn her right" to criticize the men's movement as often as she has?
Look, people can criticize the men's movement if they wish to. No one needs a "right" to do it. If you have such a problem with people expressing criticism of it, why not just ignore the criticisms?
Thank you Darth Sidious. At least I am trying to give some positive criticism, i.e. I am trying to show how it could be better or how it could be changed or that it should be changed.
A person like Devia, simply criticizes the men's movement in every aspect simply because she is a feminist. That is destructive criticism.
See the difference now?
Devia never claimed to be a mens rights activist, or a masculist. She as much as admits she is here mainly out of self interest and entertainment.
When non-mras, feminists, etc, attack the movement, it simply acts as a catylist for us to do more. Sticks and stones and I'll show you and all. When an MRA attacks from within....that is a different story-sort of like cancer.
My above reply was feeling like you have been continuing to say the same crap for the last month or so. You criticize someone's efforts, then pretend it is for all our own good.
You are doing NOTHING for the men's movement. Worse than nothing, for you are trying to sabotage it, regardless of your spoken intentions.
Since I am repeating myself, and I do not like redundant posting, I will not reply again until you have something new to add.
I do not ignore the criticisms from within because I am afraid it will discourage people from doing more. That is the ONLY effect Gerard can expect from the sort of comments he makes. It burns me that we all try so hard to make change, then in comes someone ...well, won't help anyways, no hope...all a bunch of losers...
Bullshit. We are not wasting our time.
Devia never claimed to be a mens rights activist, or a masculist. She as much as admits she is here mainly out of self interest and entertainment.
I did not know that, but I am not really shocked to find that out.
I both agree and disagree with G-
Male and female bodies are NOT designed to utilize opposite sex hormones as primary; opposite sex hormones balance (antagonistic relationship) primary ones but do NOT produce appropriate sex characteristics and must be filtered out by the liver.
In this regard G is correct- there will be side effects (comparing such with eating vegetables is idiotic) and possibly serious ones, but no more then what women face.
I personally will not take it but I absolutely think it SHOULD be an option for men just as women have.
In that regard I disagree with G
BQ,
I have indeed criticized several aspects about the men's movement. I didn't do this because I feel the men's movement should quit because it is a lost effort.
I just feel the men's movement can do better.
I wish the best for the men's movement but at the moment I am not very content about it. understand it is a new movement and all movements start small, still I think the men's movement is underperforming.
Just to give an example. I still find that someone should of stuck up for Summers. All the time we are criticizing feminists that say women are being held back in science and physics and feminists who claim women need extra funding and are held back by male peers or simply men in general.
We also complain that there is a double standard that it is forbidden to say men might have an advantage in beta occupations and studies while it is perfectly acceptable to say women have an advantage in communication and alpha occupations and studies.
We are always complaining about it, here at forums such as these, and when finally a man stands up and says it in public, nobody here or anywhere else sticks up for the man.
I find this a failure of the men's movement.
I don't think the men's movement is doing great at the moment. We could do much better. I just hope the men's movement will not remain an online movement but I haven't seen great progress yet.
That doesn't mean I despise the men's movement, nor does this mean that I think it is best we just quit. I think it is always better than nothing and I am glad that at least now there is an opportunity for men to discuss things with each other.
I just hope someday it will be more and greater than this. At the rate things are going now I am not sure we will make it.
If you ask anybody on the streets and ask about a men's movement I don't there will be many that will understand what you are talking about or actually recognize what you are saying. That is not a good sign. I have said it from the beginning, it is important we influence common people. It is great we are a cohesive group with similar beliefs and thoughts but we are a small group. Eventually our goal should be to influence common people. When this happens you can talk about real progress.
I don't care if you reply back. My intention is not to have a discussion with you, I owe you nothing. Further apparently you have problems understanding what I am saying and because of that I am the one who needs to repeat myself over and over again, and I am also getting tired of that.
If you think the men's movement is doing great at the moment than you are living in your own dream.
And don't make me look like the bad guy, because I am not the only one who feels like this. There have been more people who feel the same way and even have posted here at this forum with similar messages.
Gerard - Did YOU support Summers? Did you write a letter to Harvard complaining about his treatment? Are you one of those people that sits back and says "I still find that someone should of stuck up for Summers" but doesnt' do a thing themselves? If so, why not start taking action yourself? What we need are the individual acts of men and women that when combined produce a flood so great that it cannot be ignored. If everyone sits back and complains about how OTHERS are not doing enough then we will get nowhere.
E, this way we keep on pin pointing at each other. Because he or she didn't do anything I don't have to do anything either. This way we are getting nowhere.
I find that the men's movement has failed when it comes down to Summers. I think you should admit that too E.
All the time we talk about how great the men's movement is, but when it is really needed, it is not there. We failed when it came down to Summers.
This was a great opportunity to finally do something but nothing happened.
What we need are the individual acts of men and women that when combined produce a flood so great that it cannot be ignored.
Yes and where do you see this happening?? I don't see it happening anywhere.
Yes I think everybody knows what we need by now but some how it doesn't happen.
Here we are with a group of 500 men. So how come we don't combine our forces together and flood some injustice of men????
Most of the things I see is a forum in which we complain about many things but nothing is happening much, except for an e-mail here and there.
We need more than just that.
I am not to say what we are doing here is all for nothing, and I don't want to be the bad guy complaining about it, but IMO, and others who have complained about the same thing, we need to do better than this.
I wrote a letter to Summers Gerard. I put my money where my mouth was.
All you seem to do is complain about "the men's movement" while doing nothing.
So that is one letter. There are 700+ people here, I wonder how many people have send a letter or an e-mail. And even so, an e-mail / letter will not change anything.
I am sure Summers also got hundreds (if not thousands) of (hate) e-mails and (hate) letters from upset feminists all over the world. Not to mention the e-mails and letters adressed to Harvard itself. I think that made a much bigger impact than those couple of e-mails or letters that came from this forum.
We need hundreds or thousands of e-mails to make a statement. Better yet we need real life activism but it doesn't seem to happen.
Yew just don't get it Scott.
Gerard, You didn't write a letter, you just complained. Get it? You are a part of the problem. If 700 people like you got off their butt and wrote a letter rather than sitting back and complaining about nothing happening then something would happen.
From my perspective you are worse than the men who simply don't say anything out of fear. You not only don't say anything, you complain about everyone else. Start doing something yourself and let us know about it.
How the heck did I get dragged into this?
I suport equal treatment in family court, and have given numerous other examples of support (no special qoutas for another, big time I support a man's right to choose to be a parent or not).
I just have no support for the fanatics who do not believe in equality (whether they be male or female).
Besides that Gerald you mentioned that single women will still take the pill even if they guy she's screwing claims to be on it.
Well, my husband decided never to father children early on in life. Until we got tested for STD's together, and it was confirmed that my tubes were tied he used condoms. This to me is common sense.
IMHO the ONLY draw back to men not having to use condoms for birth control without taking the womens word on it would be the possible higher spread of STD's. That inself however is no reason why men should not have the choice.
E, did u write a letter?
Even if u did, I am sure you know just as well as me that a couple of letters will not mean much. Especially compared to all the hate mail Summers and Harvard must have gotten from all over the world.
If 700 people like you got off their butt and wrote a letter rather than sitting back and complaining about nothing happening then something would happen.
Yes exactly that is what we need. However it doesn't seem to happen. Have you ever tried to motivate the people here to do more? Or do more together?
From my perspective you are worse than the men who simply don't say anything out of fear.
The other men don't say anything out of fear, the other men don't say anything because that is the problem with most men. They don't give too much about such things. I already said it, there are also people here just for the chit-chat instead of actual activism.
I am no worse. You know why? Because at least I dare to say that things are not going great at the moment and we could do much better. At least I dare to aknoledge this. At least I dare to aknowledge that the men's movement failed when it comes down to Summers. I don't sit around here and complain about I don't know how many articles and pretend that as long as we complain there is a so-called men's movement. At least I understand much more needs to be done then sitting comfortably behind your desk chit-chatting or complaining about articles.
Further, I do as much as you people do. I don't always sit here to talk about articles. I do similar things you guys do, but I do it in my own country. Yes doing similar things you guys are doing. No I am not saying what I am doing is the best the men's movement can do. I wish more can be done but alone it is impossible and as I said before I don't believe the conditions are ready yet. But don't say I don't do anything because I do as much as most people do here. Most of the times I go to regular websites from numerous sources, such as newspapers, or I go to websites of the government, or to websites of some dumb company dishing men with I don't know what action. I find that more effective than merely posting messages here, in a crowd that thinks a like and is distanced from the rest of the world. I am not saying that everybody here does this, but I think there are some gusy here that do that and nothing more. It is nice to talk about similar interests etc. I agree on that. But just posting here will not do it for me, and I don't think this is the best way to promote men's issues / rights.
At least I understand much more needs to be done then sitting comfortably behind your desk chit-chatting or complaining about articles.
Okay, so get crackin. Make sure to tell us about all of your efforts.
Okay, so get crackin. Make sure to tell us about all of your efforts.
I alone can not make a huge difference. We need many people. Since the men's movement is kinda small at the moment since it is rather recent, I suggest we stick with the people that we have and make cohesive group efforts.
I said it before, you can either shoot at many targets with all your gun powder and your effort will vanish (eventually) or you can combine all your gun powder (i.e. creating a cohesive group) and shoot one big target never to return again.
Indeed, but Gerard you are behaving in exactly the way that you say the rest of us shouldn't. It's a case of do as I say, don't do as I do. That's what some of the folks here are getting annoyed about.
I'm certainly no equality warrior. I've not invaded Buckingham Palace or taken part in a rally or tried to form a shelter for men. I do my bit and it's not much in the grand scheme of things, I know that. But are you saying that because my efforts aren't having any real effect I should stop? That unless what we're doing is going to work we shouldn't bother?