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Stand Your Ground Forums => Main => Topic started by: zarby on Feb 06, 2006, 09:43 AM

Title: Hug from the secretary
Post by: zarby on Feb 06, 2006, 09:43 AM
The secretary continuously says she "likes me" and "wants to hug me." I say no. I joke I will be sued for sexual harassment. I seriously don't feel comforatable. Don't want her to hug me. Today, she seemed upset at me. She says "are you serious." I said "yes, I am risk averse, etc." Very interesting. Women just don't believe the same standards go the other way (extreme care not to make people feel even the slightest uncomforable  -- any man with half a brain wouldn't act ast as she does). I assume she acts in good faith thinking her conduct appropriate, but it does show the large double standard that exists here.
Title: Hug from the secretary
Post by: The Biscuit Queen on Feb 06, 2006, 09:52 AM
Hey Zarby, could you tell her you are uncomfortable with ANYONE touching you in a work situation due to sexual harrasment laws, regardless of how close you are? That puts the burden on her sholders without making her think it is personal? (I know no one cares what she thinks, but she works with Zarby and keeping office tension low is good)
Title: Hug from the secretary
Post by: Galt on Feb 06, 2006, 10:00 AM
If you let that kind of stuff go on, Zarby, as you well know, it would turn into a sexual harassment suit one millisecond after you ever had to fire her.  You're doing the right thing.  And I hope that you are doing everything correctly by organizing your business as a P.C. or whatever the legal form is in your state (but surprisingly some lawyers don't bother with that ...).
Title: Hug from the secretary
Post by: Galt on Feb 06, 2006, 10:11 AM
Quote from: "poiuyt"
... Even saying that politely may still draw further anger. A rejection is a rejection.

And in this day and age of gender supremist assumptions ...


That's kind of the whole collision of the old world with the new.  Zarby is ostensibly her boss, but (in a deeply-settled place in some women), she may think that she is Zarby's boss in terms of sex if she has retained any looks at all.  A man who is not interested will raise ire because he is negating her perceived power.  And that's a deeply-threatening thing to the particular brand of women who bases (or tries to base) her power in life on sex.  The view of that particular category of women is that she will get money based on sex, not achievement. The waning power with age, as looks fade, just amplifies that.

Just to clarify, this certainly doesn't apply to all women, just the category that has the older way of getting money (via men, not achievement) as her guiding principle.
Title: Hug from the secretary
Post by: The Biscuit Queen on Feb 06, 2006, 10:12 AM
I have faith in people, I think if he is across the board no touching, then it will not come across as personal, and even if it did, it is a small minority who would take action based on that.
Title: Hug from the secretary
Post by: Galt on Feb 06, 2006, 10:24 AM
I'm interested in whether anyone else has observed this, or whether I just witnessed a statistical anomaly:

The sexual harassment cases I saw in large companies seemed to involve women who put on more makeup, wore shorter skirts etc.  I'm not even trying to state the obvious, because I can think of two situations in which she got fired, and wanted to get revenge with a sexual harassment suit, but none of the guys being sued even paid any attention to her (as far as I could tell).  And the suit went nowhere.

In other words, I'm not trying to say that men sexually harass because she's wearing mini-skirts everyday, I'm trying to say - from what I have seen - that the mini-skirt and heavy-makeup crowd of women seems to be very ready to lodge sexual-harassment suits, whether merited or not.
Title: Re: Hug from the secretary
Post by: johnnyp on Feb 06, 2006, 10:39 AM
Quote from: "zarby"
The secretary continuously says she "likes me" and "wants to hug me." I say no. I joke I will be sued for sexual harassment. I seriously don't feel comforatable. Don't want her to hug me. Today, she seemed upset at me. She says "are you serious." I said "yes, I am risk averse, etc." Very interesting. Women just don't believe the same standards go the other way (extreme care not to make people feel even the slightest uncomforable  -- any man with half a brain wouldn't act ast as she does). I assume she acts in good faith thinking her conduct appropriate, but it does show the large double standard that exists here.


Talk to your manager and inform him.  

I would say something like:  "I do not think this is an issue, but want to keep you informed - X wanted to give me a friendly hug and I informed her it is not appropriate in a work environment."  Tell your manager that you are not asking for any action to be taken - you only want to keep him informed.  I would then follow-up with an email to the manager.
Title: Re: Hug from the secretary
Post by: Galt on Feb 06, 2006, 10:41 AM
Quote from: "johnnyp"
Talk to your manager and inform him.  

I would say something like:  "I do not think this is an issue, but want to keep you informed - X wanted to give me a friendly hug and I informed her it is not appropriate in a work environment."  Tell your manager that you are not asking for any action to be taken - you only want to keep him informed.  I would then follow-up with an email to the manager.


If I understand it correctly, Zarby is self-employed; otherwise, that would be a very good idea to get things documented on your side.
Title: Hug from the secretary
Post by: Galt on Feb 06, 2006, 10:58 AM
I just think that things have reached a sad point in society if a man has to REALLY try to inhibit, in a friendly and subtle way, a woman from sexually-harassing(??) HIM if HE doesn't want to get sued down the road.

Here's the sad fact of what happens (or at least happened in a lot of cases in the 1990s, companies are starting to take a hard line today):

Cute young secretary in a big company gets fired, because she always puts too many "Qs" in Cincinnati (or whatever) and gets a heavy-duty attitude about doing anything at all.  So standard procedure was to sue for sexual harassment, make up things if you have to, and then sit around a wait for your check for $5,000 or 10,000 when the company figures out that a lawyer would cost more, and the company doesn't need the negative PR.  It's called a "nuisance suit".

But companies today, as far as I can get the drift, are taking a hard line and actually carrying the proceedings through.  The new idea is that they will pay more for lawyers in the individual case, but it will discourage nuisance suits in the future, and plaintiff's lawyers (especially the variety that takes on cases without evident merit - and, uhh, yes, they exist LOL) eventually won't take these cases to a great degree if the contingency fee consistently turns out to be "0 dollars".
Title: Hug from the secretary
Post by: Galt on Feb 06, 2006, 11:12 AM
The other point -- these types of girls just aren't worth it.  Let them find some other guy to pay for them.

Look what happened when Clinton gave in to Monica.  She's going to be really, really important if she bags the President (or at least gets her black dress creamed), so he obviously shouldn't have been so stupid.

At least find one of these types of girls outside of the work environment.  They're easy to have for a very expensive vacation.
Title: Hug from the secretary
Post by: gwallan on Feb 06, 2006, 01:58 PM
Quote from: "Galt"
In other words, I'm not trying to say that men sexually harass because she's wearing mini-skirts everyday, I'm trying to say - from what I have seen - that the mini-skirt and heavy-makeup crowd of women seems to be very ready to lodge sexual-harassment suits, whether merited or not.

The mini skirt and cleavage set are sexual harassers themselves. I find it terribly uncomfortable in a workplace that somebody else has control over which direction I point my eyes. It's not necessary.
Title: Hug from the secretary
Post by: zarby on Feb 06, 2006, 02:14 PM
Hey, I sent her shopping. When she returned, she told me that the guy at "Best Buy" was very angry with me and if I wouldn't hug her he would. Also, she characterized me as a "grouch."

Another observation she is constantly using worlds like "we" and "our" when their is no "we" or "our." There is only me and everything is mine. She works for me. A few days ago she asked where I was going (I was going to the bathroom).  She feigned anger when I refused to tell her.  When I return from lunch, sometimes she says "you didn't get me anything" while feigning anger. As you can tell, these things irritate me. She is one of the best workers I have had but these things irritate me.
Title: Hug from the secretary
Post by: zarby on Feb 06, 2006, 02:16 PM
By the way, everybody wants her. Virtually every man she encounters she will say "I know he wants me" or something similar. All male clients want her. The guy at best buy wants her. Everybody wants her. I don't. To each their own, but she is not the subject of fantacies -- just isn't.
Title: Hug from the secretary
Post by: Somebody else on Feb 06, 2006, 05:02 PM
I'd get rid of her ASAP. It only gets worse. She'll eventually think you two are an item (if she doesn't already) and that she is entitled to half of everything ("but I thought we were partners"). I've seen it before. Great worker or not - not worth the emotional price.
Title: Hug from the secretary
Post by: TheManOnTheStreet on Feb 06, 2006, 05:15 PM
<Al Throws brick and hits Zarby squarely on the temple>

WAKE UP!  I have personally witnessed this exact scenario at a company I worked for 10 or so years ago.  DOCUMENT EVERYTHING NOW!

IT was the owner's son that she would play this sort of game with.  Right down to the "where are 'we' going for lunch?" and "why didn't you get me something <pout pout>".  This, of course turned into him moving her to another department to get her away from him.  His mistake was putting her in a place where she wasn't happy (read, she couldnt manipulate the men, because there were none in the purchasing dept).  

After a few months, she made a huge scene in front of everyone in engineering and "quit".  Reason?  "He moved me because I wouldn't go to lunch with him".  I shit you not.  OF course as the months added up, it turned into full blown harrassment and hostile environment etc....But you get the point.

Eventually she was able to extort $$$$$ from company just to make her go away.  The real sad part was that she still filed, attempting to get more for mental suffering and depression blah blah.. ad nauseum....  To be honest, I left and moved on to another company before it was all said and done, so I don't know if she succeeded the second time around, nor do I know exactly how much she got overall.

I mean it ZARBY!  You are the one in power, Just as he was.  You will be the one that looks bad, no matter what.  She wants to hug you because she is trying to set you up.  That's my take on it.

Man, If I didn't know better, I'd say I was having a serious case of the deja vous... the bad kind!

Al
Title: Hug from the secretary
Post by: CaptDMO on Feb 06, 2006, 05:45 PM
Quote from: "zarby"
Hey, I sent her shopping. When she returned, she told me that the guy at "Best Buy" was very angry with me and if I wouldn't hug her he would. Also, she characterized me as a "grouch."


DANGER!
I precieve taking such issues out of the workplace, and establishing a postion with easily duped "others" as "Rounding Up Allies" for the kill.

Seen it before more than once. It's called trial by malicious gossip.
I'm guessing, at this point, she's still apparently very friendly with the object   of her scorn. As annoying and unfortunate as it may be in trying to manage a workplace, try to insure that you are NEVER alone with this woman, you may even consider CCTV or 'puter cams
Title: Hug from the secretary
Post by: johnnyp on Feb 06, 2006, 05:47 PM
sounds like that woman has issues - DANGER WIL ROBINSON
Title: Hug from the secretary
Post by: Sir Percy on Feb 06, 2006, 10:23 PM
Zarby, you have a mini-psycho on your books.

Document, document, document. Individually notarise the documents. Date them. Be specific in her actions that you note, be subjective in your reactions that you note.

Other employees in the firm? Get an ally or two. Confidentially appraise them of your concerns. Record the meeting. If you are the boss, hire a gender-harrassment education provider to hold a training program for the staff. Hire them and tell them the examples that you insist they use. Use the errant woman's behaviours as the examples.

If it persists, let her carry out her intent to hug you, call the cops and insist they press charges, take out a restraint order, throw the book at her.

Quote
I just think that things have reached a sad point in society if a man has to REALLY try to inhibit, in a friendly and subtle way, a woman from sexually-harassing(??) HIM if HE doesn't want to get sued down the road.


You are right Galt. It has reached and gone well beyong that sad point. It is now dangerous.
Title: Hug from the secretary
Post by: alien on Feb 06, 2006, 11:42 PM
Quote from: "zarby"
By the way, everybody wants her. Virtually every man she encounters she will say "I know he wants me" or something similar. All male clients want her. The guy at best buy wants her. Everybody wants her. I don't. To each their own, but she is not the subject of fantacies -- just isn't.

Yep she is a bomb just waiting to go off, mate.

I too take precautions at work. Whenever a meeting between me and one female employee has to take place I always make it at our local cafe - very public. It works out well because for most part I'm coming across as  picking a more comfortable environment - relaxed and such. Also, we have plenty of cameras and security door readers that luckily I can access and prove where I am at any time. You have to play it smart.

I also never pick-up or hold kids - no matter what. On a couple of occasions at the local supermarket a child has fallen over and I've been the closest but that's just too bad and dangerous.

On a psycho note: a MRA stated somewhere on the net that if you come across a woman that still has stuffed toys then stay away. Sorry about the source but I remember reading this and it just stuck.