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Mr X I can understand your frustration but would encourage you to expand your scope just a bit. This thread has been helpful in a number of ways. First it has helped us to practice in articulating our views. Read through this thread and you will find some beautifully written and very convincing evidence that feminism has been hurtful to boys and men. The more we practice the better we get.
Look at the views for this thread. We are coming up on a thousand. Remember that most who come here don't post. Most just read. Many of those folks are trying to get an understanding of issues. They may have heard some arguments against feminism in the past but are convinced that feminism is about equality. A thread like this is wonderfully instructive for folks who are just learning about these issues. I know about this because I hear from lurkers who talk about their experience.
Even if Kate never responds that is also a good thing. It shows both us and the lurkers that feminism can't take a punch. Any ideology worth its salt would have lots of proof that what has been written on this thread is incorrect. I doubt we will be seeing that anytime soon. Today's radical feminism is not about the truth, it is about propaganda. It is not seeking to explain or bring understanding, it is corrupt. Buy not responding Kate gives everyone an important message.
If she responds all the better.
Welcome Kate. I realize you will be swamped with replies here, so I will make this brief.
What the above posts boil down to is feminism's main body stands for issues which are not about equality, but about protecting and advancing the interests of only women, many times at the expense of men.
While you can put any definition you want on feminism, NOW sets the standard here in the US. If you disagree with NOW you are disagreeing with modern, mainstream feminism.
I will add two more ways that modern, mainstream feminism hurts men. One, reproductive rights. Men have none. Zero. Zip. They cannot even keep it in their pants, because men and boys who have been raped, and men who are not the father ( and have been proven medically not to be the father) have by court, order under threat of jail, been made to pay child support and thus become parents against their will.
Women are given every choice available, in some cases including killing their infants and walking away.
For the young perhaps
It's really just a matter of questioning the foundation of what it is that structures society.
Ah yes. In time you may learn that The MASSES are actually quite in tune, and most can circumvent the unreasonable demands put upon them under the guise of thinly, or even well padded, idealism, whoever may be scooping out the flavor of the week.
The only apparent truism is the cyclic nature of politics. For me-especially my own! I recommend seeking the observations of members of "the masses" that are older. They've seen it all come and go.
Elites on both eXtreems of the bell curve, that have an eerie resemblance to the other, seem quite comfortble with myopia.
In the middle ground lie folks in animated pursuit of satisfactory spheres of influence. I believe you've already found that many here are fully prepared to stand that ground.
I could be wrong.....
I gotta go with GentleGiant's assesment on this.
I am 5-11" and 225 (ouch - gotta work on that) and I am a scrapper. I mention all that because I have been in quite a few fights and his take on it is practical and realistic.
That bartender had every right to refuse service, and if someone were to come into "her" (or his) area, AFTER throwing a GARBAGE CAN etc, I would have a very realistic expectation of violence from the person coming into "my" area.
Even if she DID taunt him, his REACTION is his alone. And yes, cops defend cops. But soldiers also defend soldiers, etc etc.
He was a beligerant a**hole who beat up a smaller PERSON.
When it comes to fights I am practical ... AND GENDER BLIND.
Just my two cents.
Steven
welcome, high desert! I am with you ;I have been an mra after being through the "system" and have seen first hand how bias it really is !Most men and women i know have no idea untill they live through it! I cannot see my kids report cards and it drives me crazy ! I also think you can get more co-operation from the people that count by being diplomatic and gets ppl to listen to my cause! Although my feminazi signs are waiting to be displayed the second people don't listen ! Yes,there are a few on here that seem to think being violent is the way to go-it just makes all men look bad and makes our battle harder !It shouldn't take ya long to figure out which ones they are !
anyways,welcome and i look forward to more of yur posts!
OT
I've always wondered why barbers were annointed "blood letters", instead
of the folks FAR more practiced at anatomy and FAR more adept in blood management.
I've always wondered why "students of medicine" were bestowed with honors
when in fact -to this day- the "medical community" inflicts an ASTOUNDING amount of damage.
If there was a need for the distasteful work of eliminating human bile, butchers
had a superior reputation and resume for the job.Quote from: HighDesertA: I really don't have a 'plan' do bring this utopia about. It's simply not my place.Ah yes, great idea,...but who's going to put the bell on the cat?
Don't sell yourself short HighDesert. It's got to start SOMEWHERE.
I'm not vaguely insulting you, champ - I'm coming right out and doing it, if you prefer. You're guilty of magical thinking. You want the world to operate as you wish it to be, not as it is.
It doesn't work like that.
The questions that are begged in the whole plan are legion. The internal contradictions are staggering. The requirements for it to work - the Second Coming is more realistic. At least Jesus gets rid of the bad apples.
The Warlords will take over.
You don't think people will go along with it? I'm sure the first black guy off the slave ship also said, "Pick cotton? Call you "Massa?" Who the fuck are you? Kiss my black ass, you sonofabitch, I ain't picking no mother fu..." Right then the second black guy said, "Put up the whip, Massa. I'll pick the cotton" as he stepped over the bloody corpse.
What are you going to do about the weak links? The Sheeple? The ones willing to be controlled? WANTING to be controlled. They outnumber the rest of us. They prefer to live like that. And they - or their masters - can't let rogues live.
How many you willing to kill? To dominate? Because if you leave them masterless, they will seek one. And they will find it. If you get rid of them - coerce them - you become what you purport to depise.
Will you make a law that nobody can make laws? Planning to enforce that by ... what? Flower power? Telekinesis? Jedi Mind Tricks?
You're going to raise every person from every successive generation to be "moral?" Top see sweet reason as you do? Do tell. What do you know that the entire population of the world who has gone before (and said, "My kids will never...") didn't? That Jesus, Siddhartha, Confucious, and a host of others didn't know?
Or will it "Just Happen?"
The Warlords will take over.
And to this date, the only response to that objection can be pretty much summed up as, "Nuh-uh! Will not!"
Welcome HighDesert, since you didn't ask, here're some of the many things wrong with idealism:
It's a form of pandering. When idealists say things lofty things like "I just want people to have nutritious food and decent housing and a chance to develop themselves to their fullest potential" they subtly imply that someone opposed to a tax-hike (for instance) doesn't want those things. Feigned idealism can be used to obstruct the imperfect but practical efforts of realists.
Idealists are civically indolent. They present an illusion of being involved, well informed and best of all, so, so noble. In reality they want nothing to do with the dirty business of actually pursuing concrete goals in the arena of human interaction (politics is a dirty word to them.) Their truest sentiments are best expressed as: I've got mine. If they are embarrassed by their actual efforts toward the well being of others, this is offset by the transcendent perfection of the things they WISH for others.
Idealists are profligate. They are happy to consume the resources of society in order to indulge the self-satisfaction they derive from their fashionable sentiments. If you've ever wondered how governments and other organizations become so bloated, it is by the armies of idealists who demand ever more committees and study groups where they can showcase their high-mindedness. A realist who would launch an effort to achieve some societal good must contend with the hangers-on who crave the prestige of high-profile service. The idealist contingent will hamstring any effort by endlessly adding complexity without adding value. The notion of completion is repugnant to them.
Idealists are totalitarians at heart; they would enslave humanity to make them "free." Idealists are disdainful of humanity as it is. Humans have the ability and hence the responsibility to decide how we will live. And we are social animals; hermitage does not suit us. But economics is another dirty word to the idealist. Limited resources mean hard choices, conflict and compromise. (This is not compromise in the idealist's vocabulary but compromise in its original sense: the bitter surrender of one's principles to salvage enough resources to live to fight another day.) The idealist views this state of affairs and decides human nature as it is will not do; it must go. If their delusions lead to death camps, they will take satisfaction in knowing that they are on record as being opposed to that sort of thing.
An idealist can accuse the realist of cynicism or pessimism. But the way to shut up a true cynic or pessimist is to make a liar of them; show them it CAN be done. A world where justice reigns and people do not fight and do not starve is a noble vision. If such a world is attainable, my money is on the realists.
But the way to shut up a true cynic or pessimist is to make a liar of them; show them it CAN be done. A world where justice reigns and people do not fight and do not starve is a noble vision. If such a world is attainable, my money is on the realists.
As I thought. "Wish real hard."
You have a pipe dream. You have a big vocabulary. You have a talent for vaguely insulting people with it. But you have nothing concrete. Nothing acheivable.
QuoteFortunately for me and my paradigm of thought I do believe that humanity has the ability to transcend the patterns of thought that will only create negativity and embrace a reality based upon the realization of cause and effect as it applies to human interaction.
Excellent!
Now, keeping in mind that "Wish really hard" and "Believe sincerely" are insufficient for me as to plans, what are your detailed plans to:
A) Bring this utopia about, and
B) Keep it once you have it.
I eagerly await your answer. It sounds like an Eden that you propose.
Now, keeping in mind that "Wish really hard" and "Believe sincerely" are insufficient for me as to plans, what are your detailed plans to:
A) Bring this utopia about, and
B) Keep it once you have it.
I eagerly await your answer. It sounds like an Eden that you propose.
HighDesert thanks for participating - I may have misunderstood, but you sound idealistic to me
First I'm not sure how large a society can function using the voluntary association system, I suspect not on the scale of millions
Second I don't believe human nature has changed much since we evolved from primates, meaning we have instinctual and emotional behaviours difficult to control by reason - does that allow altruism? I don't see how you can force that from people
QuoteIndeed, what I question is simply the right of a group of individuals to force me to join with them in some sort of forced spiritual compact that may or may not represent what I believe to be sound and moral - simply because I happen to live within a certain geographic region.QuoteHow many here appreciate being forced to join/associate with those that believe they have the right to steal and victimize you simply because you have testicles and they have managed to manipulate public opinion about you by using the media to promote an agenda? How many here appreciate being forced to contribute to the upbringing of a child they have no right to even see their report cards?
Whether they have the moral right to do so is besides the point in the face of the objective reality that they certainly possess the power to do so. And that is the "What shall we do about it" that must be answered.
Those who prematurely beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.
Whether they have the moral right to do so is besides the point in the face of the objective reality that they certainly possess the power to do so. And that is the "What shall we do about it" that must be answered.
I also believe that the majority of the problems associated with the discussions on this list/forum have to do with the fact that essentially 'we', as a whole, accept a premise that is based upon lies.
Namely, force and violence can create positive results.
"'we', as a whole, accept a premise that is based upon lies.
Namely, force and violence can create positive results."
Isn't most of recorded history about force and violence?
Has any ruler achieved power without force or the threat of force?