Messages

31

Main / A Question of Poor and/or Minority Men

Sep 24, 2005, 06:39 PM

There, I made my post a little more legible.

32

Main / A Question of Poor and/or Minority Men

Sep 24, 2005, 06:25 PM

I believe what feminists say is that poor and minority men lack power against wealthy men, but still have power over poor and minority women. Leaving poor and minority women at the bottom of the heap.

I know that this is what feminists say.  But this still leaves the question.  Why does "male privilege" have most men lacking in their "male privilege"  compared to that of the minority of wealthy powerful men who are abundant in power, when even poor women who are supposedly further down the social heap than poor men, are a part of the community that makes all gender rules that shape society because they are women(read link)...??

Yet, with "male privilege", lower class men aren't in the head positions that  shape society.  Women being women, are in the position to shape society from simple being women.

{Oh yes, and you said, as a feminist, when the moment fit, replied to my post.....

Ikanneg

Quote:
I'm not sure which problem I'm having, but I am having an extremely hard time coming up with instances in my life where I was privileged to be a woman. Is it because I simply can't see it? Mind, I am talking about *my* life in particular.

bukowski

Whereas feminists arguments often boil down to pointing out the small minority of men in power, then preaching to the lower class man, "look see, look see. Look at how much power you have that you have to 'feel' guilty over because they are men...tsk tsk......."

Ikanneg

I agree and *that* is a double standard that a lot more feminists need to have pointed out to them. I never fell into that particular mindset because my mom, uberfeminist that she was, had no patience with it--she thought that men of the lower socioeconomic classes were as disempowered compared to men of the higher classes as women were.

[/quote]

33

Main / Female Privilage Check List

Sep 22, 2005, 08:08 PM

I read this thread a while ago.  I forget if this was mentioned or not.

Women have unpaid body guards where men have only themselves. Including men in small stature.

34

Main / A Question of Poor and/or Minority Men

Sep 22, 2005, 08:04 PM

Not exactly related specifically to this thread, but, I felt like giving this link to  Ikanneg, considering the time she has on her hands of late to read the opinions of the bad boys.

http://www.rulymob.com/ifmenhav.pdf

(use your left/right arrows to turn the pages)

35

Main / A Question of Poor and/or Minority Men

Sep 22, 2005, 04:50 PM

Feminists often assert that minority and poor men face considerable disadvantage in their lives due to their lack of wealth and minority status.

But there is another way of looking at this issue... poor and minority men may be facing the disadvantages all men face *without* the relative protection of being white and wealthy.

On another thread I was saying something similar to Ikanneg.

Feminists look at the minority of men in power and call it male privilege, encompassing, and spreading around, their bounty of guilt to all men.  Including the poor and minority men they may pay lip service to.  While all western women share their 'community power' together from simply being women.  Men's power is in their status or position in society.

Most men aren't wealthy and in power.  They are mostly what many may call "middle class".  They go to work, clock in, do what they're told, go home (and even then sometimes do what they're told there too).

So I believe the more rational conclusion is that wealth and power bring men up from what their default social status would be as a man.

The true sexism, is the female privilege, their community power.  Their power they get from simply being a woman and nothing more.  For even poor women are a part of this community.

I believe the very fact that the feminist will sometimes pay lip service to the poor and minority men against the minority of wealthy men in power, and say that these poor men are just as powerless as the gender of women, disproves "male privilege".  And, if they were consistant, would see that their arguments against male privilege gives more credence against female privilege.  Their community power they share as women, from simply being women.

36

Main / Female privilege?

Sep 20, 2005, 07:39 PM

I am saying it is the power women hold together for simply being women.  

Men's power is more so what they do, the position/status they have.  This is the power of an individual man, not men in general for simply being men.

37

Main / Female privilege?

Sep 20, 2005, 07:23 PM

she thought that men of the lower socioeconomic classes were as disempowered compared to men of the higher classes as women were.

Except even women in the lower socioeconomic classes have community power, where as men in their class do not have it.

38

Main / Female privilege?

Sep 20, 2005, 06:09 PM

I'm not sure which problem I'm having, but I am having an extremely hard time coming up with instances in my life where I was privileged to be a woman. Is it because I simply can't see it? Mind, I am talking about *my* life in particular.

 Whereas feminists arguments often boil down to pointing out the small minority of men in power, then preaching to the lower class man, "look see, look see. Look at how much power you have that you have to 'feel' guilty over because they are men...tsk tsk......."

I think we may be saying that women have a community power that they share in common and can often choose to excersize when it's beneficial for them by the simple fact that they are women.  Men's power, is often just the position he is in.  (Now though, women want equality with men in these positions while retaining their community power.)

Whereas feminists often resort to the facally of pointing out the minority of men in positions of power, or the minorityrapists as male privilege, I think our arguments of female privilege is the power that women, as a whole, share together.  Their community power.

You can say these "female privileges" don't apply to you because you choose not to excersize them, or simply have not for whatever reason.  But this is not an argument against "female privilege" (women's community power), but maybe, it is simply more of a public discussion about yourself, for whatever reason that is.

39

Main / The Male Pill (Again)

Sep 15, 2005, 06:57 PM

What about the autonomy of the unborn child? If you deny they are individuals, who gives you the right to determine who is and is not an individual?

Here is something for you to chew on: if the "jury is still out" regarding the humanity of the unborn child, why do you not give the child the benefit of the doubt?

What, with a law?  I wouldn't have sex with a woman is okay with abortion.
I do not claim to know if abortion is murder or not, if you didn't react with emotion you may have seen that from my previous posts.  I don't know.

After all, what does an unborn child turn out to be everytime they are extracted from the mother's body? You guessed it: a human. Not a frog. Not a monkey. Not a whale. Not a fungus. Children from conception onward have human DNA. Who are we to deny the unborn child a chance to make an impact in this world? Who are we to elevate our petty concerns of career, comfort and "what other people might think" above the life of another?

okay...and?  I tried to stay nuetral in my previous posts on making a judgement on abortion to point out that either way you look at it FORCING  (as I believe Gerard said) your morals on another is still denying a person's autonomy over their own bodies.  And either way you look at it, the fetus is dependent and inside the woman's body, hence the reason anyone would have to 'force' someone to have a child.

Children do not choose to be conceived. If anyone has choices, it is both parents. Once again, conceiving a child is a likely outcome of sex. If the parents do not want a child, no one is forcing them to have sex. What kind of sick society is this that elevates sexual pleasure above the reality of sexual responsibility? Ours! There are more important things in life than the pursuit of pleasure.

As I previously said, if you are against abortion either don't have sex with someone is okay with it, or don't have sex at all.

The rest of your post merely distracts from the core issue.

Actually the "core issue" about abortion on this thread wasn't about the morality of abortion, but on the fact that forcing someone to have or not have an abortion, you would #1., need the state, and #2., deny someone's autonomy over their own body.  And either you view abortion the fetus is in the woman's body and dependent on it.  

Dismiss me as a "religious wacko" if you are so inclined, but you will be telling the rest of us quite a bit more about yourself than you will about me. I can assure you of that.

I think you need to stop your emotions from concentrating on me and use your brain more on your own rationality.

40

Main / The Male Pill (Again)

Sep 15, 2005, 06:47 PM

First of all, I do not give a damn about the mere opinions of an increasingly deluded portion of society; murder is murder. It is not something we put up to a vote to determine if it is moral or immoral. Just because I declare abortion to be wrong does NOT mean I am taking away anyone's autonomy! My words are nowhere near that powerful. You are being manifestly illogical, so do us all a favor and get a clue.

Are there not laws against murder on the books now? Regardless of whether an action is prohibited does not infringe on free will. People still commit murder these days. If abortion is declared illegal tomorrow, abortions would still happen. The only difference is it will not be condoned by society!

You can declare it to be wrong fine.  I answered your question as to who I was meaning (the mother) when I was talking about taking away the the autonomy to control someone and whether you like it or not, the fetus is under the jursidiction of those whose bodies they are in.

The only difference is it will not be condoned by society!

A law making abortion illegal would not therefore mean that society thought abortion was wrong.  It could believed that the reason people want to make it illegal is precisely because people do not think it wrong to do, hence the reason for the law.

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Main / The Male Pill (Again)

Sep 15, 2005, 06:38 PM

Quote:
me"I was not making a moral judgement on abortion either way. '

Right...  

Did you know that I am against abortion?

I just don't try to imagine that my views or ethics are so absolutely correct that I can enforce them on others using the state.

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Main / The Male Pill (Again)

Sep 14, 2005, 08:29 PM

I believe Darth Sideous is arguing that the mother is taking away the automous choice of the fetal unit. He might point out that forcing someone to not murder you is removing their autonomy.

Your second sentence involves people who are already born and where there is no argument of the being as sentient.  And where there is no question as to stopping someone's life as being murder.

The latter, the "fetal unit", there is ethical argumentation as to whether abortion is murder or not.

There is no question that killing a human that has been born, where there is no question of that person being an individual sentient being, is murder.

The one trying murder me would be removing my autonomy and there would be no question of that what so ever.  There is that question with abortion.

It is silly to think that one who would be for autonomy of each individual would allow their own autonomy to be foresaken for another's "autonomy", ie, domination.  This argument is further proof of how our society equates  liberty as a license to control others.

43

Main / The Male Pill (Again)

Sep 13, 2005, 08:05 PM

I sure hope you are talking about the body of the unborn child, not the mother.

(at the risk of being accused of a feminist, I will still say and be consistant with my personal philosophy)

No I was not talking about the unborn child and I was not making a moral judgement on abortion either way.

To force an abortion on someone you need to deny their autonomy.  To force someone not to have an abortion you are also denying that woman her autonomy.  You are forcing your will on someone else whether you think abortion is wrong or right and that would be exactly what you would be doing if you did either of the one.  Even if you believed the unborn child/fetus was being 'murdered' (many people disagree that it is murder) that would still be what you were doing and you'd be using the state to deny their autonomy.

I am for the autonomy of each individual whether I like them or not.





 

Men and women need to learn some responsibility and value human life. Pregnancy is a likely consequence of sex. Deal with it. If you do not want the responsibility, use the 100% effective birth control measure, abstinence.

Then the argument could well be turned easily onto those who are opposed to abortion.  If one is against abortion it would be their responsibility to not have sex with someone who is okay with it.  Or not have sex at all.  Instead of forcing your morals, whatever they be, onto those who disagree.



Again, I did not place a moral judgement on abortion, but on the fact of denying someone's autonomy over their own body.  And as long as the baby is unborn, whether you are for or against abortion, we are talking about someone's body.

And not only that.  If it is okay to force a woman not to have an abortion to face the responibility that comes with sex.  Then the argument can easily be made that the state is needed to deny men's autonomy and force them to be 'responsible' for the effects of having had sex.  Which would be child support.

So, then, it may be a good idea for those who are against abortion embrace a "male pill".....

44

Main / OMG...heres what happened at school with me yesterday.......

Sep 12, 2005, 07:32 PM

You should know you're pssibly on her shit list now.

45

Main / Question for lkanneg

Sep 11, 2005, 06:20 PM

I think it's funny.

Men are forced into the military, navy, etc. when men's bodies are needed as a resource to fight for resources.  And before that force is intiated men are forced to sign up for that draft with legal consequences if they do not do so.

Women are oppressed from not being allowed in certain areas of the military, navy, etc...... :boohoo: