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Pretty interesting article here about AVFM http://rockingmre.blogspot.com/2013/02/now-even-angry-harry-is-wrong.html
Thanks for offering your perspective Tigerman. That's what I was looking for.
um, Tigerman, you never answered my question. At least I couldn't find it in what you wrote. I am curious what your perspective might be but you seem unwilling to comment.
Tigerman - I am less concerned with the actual policy and more concerned with the daily reality.
It seems factory that you are suggesting that they have indeed excluded some for their ideas while at the same time hoisting the banner of inclusiveness. A rather odd combo. Can you comment on that Tigerman?
Is this correct or not? Is there personal attacks for having ideas that differ? Are people free to speak their minds and insured a degree of safety? Please don't quote the moderation policy. That is not what I am asking.
Factory - I read through the above posts and didn't see anything that seemed so bad. Seemed more like a difference of opinions and not getting what each other meant. Am I missing something?
"As for being "assholes" let him who has not been one cast the first stone to paraphrase a certain historic personage. For sure I have my opinions on what goes down not just there but everywhere else but I am also mindful of the wisdom "don't wash your dirty linen in public.""
I think you are under the mistaken impression that I want to move this movement forward, EVEN IF IT MEANS SUPPORTING CRAP IDEOLOGICAL TOTALITARIANISM. Let me put it to you straight, right now...
I will do everything I can to undermine that site, and this whole fucking movement if I have to, in order to restore some kind of humanity to it. That fucker posted a personal email ALONG WITH MY CITY OF RESIDENCE on the Internet, and I STILL can't get a job because of it. I once thought he was just a fucking moron for doing it,. now, I'm not so sure. THAT is the kind of shit I hold against him and his site. ALL of you show complete willingmness to 'sacrifice a brother for the greater good'.
I will air my dirty laundry in public till I'm blue in the face...ESPECIALLY if it embarrasses him and his sycophants. In fact, I am publicly stating right now that anyone, and I do mean ANYONE, that would like to make use of my services or knowledge in order to undermine and destroy both AVfM and the Mens Movment as a whole, is more than welcome to contact me., I will give your efforts every bit as much time and energy as I have thus far sunk into both AVfM and the MRM.
Betray me, and try to toss me over the shoulder as an 'extremist'? Fine, fuck you and the horse you rode in on...and fuck anyone associated with you. I'd FAR rather not fight for the rights of men, if it means I have to associate with the likes of you or Paul to do it. And I would DEFINITELY rather see the MRM destroiyed than simply replace feminism as the ideology of oppression du jour.
I love how you narcissistic asshats think this is something new in the MRM. Until your 'enlightened' asses hit the benches, we MUST have all been old white racist and sexist guys....since we didn't make a point of stressing all that shit...
Or, conversely, we were smart enough to realize that pandering in this way is THE EXACT SAME SHIT THAT LED TO THE PROBLEMS WE FIGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE> It doesn't deviate, not one fucking iota, from the exact same trajectory Feminism followed, and using the exact same fucking methodology to do it. But yeah, you guys are SO SMART, that it won't happen to you like it did to literally every other movement adopting the memes... Nope, you guys are DIFFERENT, therefore, it'll work this time....
"So sure such keeping and maintaining any sort of unity in such a diverse group requires a lot - not just from the site and it's admin but the goodwill and intelligence of it's diverse supporters. "
'Diverse' huh? PC speak...PC guidelines, PC 'groups', PC everything...but nope, according to you, all those identical traits are NOT indications you've gone Pee Cee....nope, nothing to see here, move along.
"AVFM is not for prioritising vexatious "venting" however - there are much better places for that and yes Factory that remark is aimed directly at you - pissing contests are for schoolkids and "talking tough" on the internet has never impressed me."
Vexatiuous venting....is that what you call any kind of criticism of an INSANE course of action? My guess is, Tigerman, that you had a LOT to do with this shift in direction. Along with the 'contributing supporters' that happen to have a desire for this change in direction as well....hmmm...
The fact hat you STILL cannot admit that AVfM ever did anything wrong, or that the 'ousting' of longtime MRAs was ill-conceived at the very best. You still can't deny that AVfM is doing it's level best (as are you) is casting as 'extremist' (just like the SRSers on Reddit have wanted for years) anyone who doesn't agree with the 'full support' of these groups, EVEN IF THE OBJECTION IS ONE OF SIMPLE OVER REPRESENTATION. Yeah, that's the ONLY reason I was attacked...because I didn't support the Official Policy IN THE CORRECT MANNER. I was attacked because of simple criticism of methods, not even the goals behind them.
Sorry I'm not a sycophant I'm just someone who can put his own personal petty issues to one side for the sake of seeing some actual progress.
My ass you are, you sniveling apologist. You want to CONTINUE to try and paint me as 'unreasonable' do you? I spelled out in fair detail what the issue with that site is, and THIS bullshit is your mealy-mouthed response? You're just as much opf a piece of shit as they are if you can't even drum up enough fucking humanity to denounce the IRRESPONSIBLE and downright fucking nasty betrayal committed by others...just because they are your buds....
Seriously, you, Paul, Dr F, and all the rest are soulless pieces of shit, and not one of you deserves anything but utter fucking contempt. And you are such a fucking coward you can't even admit when you, or ANYONE associated with that site, is being a fucking asshole...probably because you're afraid they will do it to YOU too...
Yeah, excellent 'defense' you're putting up there, you and your hypocritical traitorous crew...
Factory - Please try to keep the name calling down. Stick with the ideas and we will be fine. It does seem to be a question worth answering, is AVFM inclusive or has it been "exclusive" to only a certain sub-set of mra's. It seems factory that you are suggesting that they have indeed excluded some for their ideas while at the same time hoisting the banner of inclusiveness. A rather odd combo. Can you comment on that Tigerman?
This dynamic is what we have seen from groups such as feminism where a party-line must be followed or people are actively excluded. I hope we are not going down that road.
First of all *I* am not AVFM. AVFM is there - it exists and so far I support it aims and goals ONLY because they largely coincide with my own personally held convictions.
Nor am I happy with all that is decided or that goes on there but I don't have to be - it is not my site and if I don't like it enough I can ignore it and move on.
I understand and sympathise perhaps more than you think that indeed some veteran MRA's have had their noses put out of joint in clashes with site policy and\or some of any of the moderators there. I was very saddened by the clash between Angry Harry and Paul Elam for example. Had I been in charge of the site I may well reacted differently than Paul .
I still read Angry Harry's articles and I have enormous respect and love for the man.
It was he prior to the last Gulf war that initially annoyed me with his opposition to the coming campaign - at the time I was still stupid and gullible enough to believe that the offensive was for the good of the poor Iraqi's, the Gulf in general and world peace (due to the elimination of the non-existent weapons of mass destruction etc). Yet Harry's voice troubled me - Harry foresaw the coming carnage and the undue collateral damage as a basic affront to humanity and boy was he right although it took me longer than I am proud to admit to see his perspective and agree with it.
I am not the sycophant you think I am. Like I said before AVFM is a weapon and in my view it is being honed into an ever more effective one - so please for the sake of your own nervous system chill the fuck out and let it do it's work.
Jesus. How many times do I have to say this before it gets through your thick skull?
I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE 'AGENDA' AT AVfM. I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE 'GAY AGENDA'. I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM....GET IT!?!?!?
For fuck sakes.
What I DO have a problem with, is the asshat way that the masthead there (and YOU are included in this statement) along with many 'commenters', have taken a 'Our way or fuck off' attitude. I DON'T GIVE A FUCK about the 'gay agenda' shit.. What I DO GIVE A FUCK ABOUT is the way Paul and Dr F and the rest of those assholes simply turned on many MRAs and essentially branded them (us?) as 'extremists'.
And THAT is a fucking cunty asshole move, on ANY FUCKING LEVEL. They better hope AVfM serves all their 'activism needs', because they just sent a messgae to MRAs everywhere...'tow the line, or we'll turn on you like we did 'The Father of the MRM' and others. It was an ego-driven fucking power grab, and it shows just how shitty those people really are, how little they understand the concepts of 'loyalty' and 'consensus', and most importantly of all, it shows how Paul and the Gang will toss your dried husk over their shoulder the instant they are done getting what they want from you.
The REAL killer here, though, is that NONE OF YOU WILL ADMIT THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED...and instead choose to paint anyone who disagrees as 'egotistical extremists that hate Gays'....you know, like you keep fucking insisting on trying to do?
You're all fucking traitors, and users, and you have shown me that the VAST majority of MRAs aren't worth even a little bit of respect. Now, FUCKING READ THIS AND UNDERSTAND, you traitorous fuck, that I will not take your baseless accusations lying down. In fact, I'll fucking work my ass off to sink that site, and the WHOLE FUCKING MOVEMENT if I have to, before I will give you, Paul, Dr F, or any of those other assholes so much as the time of day.
Now, FUCK OFF you sycophant.
That is pretty well thought out. About the only thing I disagree with is the stance on circumcision. I know I am in the minority of the MRA Comunity on this and Im okay with it.
On a side note, the crazy chick was very sexually aggressive for a feminist who supposedly hates men. She kept touching my arms and saying how muscular I was and how everyone said I was the guy to train with. I'm pretty sure I avoided a whole lot of unwanted problems and drama by denying this woman my time.
(para) "For now, these are only potential talking points, planks to establish a platform."
OK, I get it.
Personally, I don't have the patience to teach the same lesson over and over, nor argue what I believe to be the same proved truisms, based on the entire recorded history of the human race available to me, over and over.
Feel free to lable such an intellectual position with any derogatory idiological co-opted, dog whistle, malaprops at your disposal. Be sure to actually know what "memes" and words actually mean, NOT what others ignorantly, or disingenuously, imply, in such discourse.
The more I think about this, the more I'm kind of turned off of the whole idea actually. Why should I help someone who openely hates me and my gender? I think I'll tell her to go find someone else.