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Messages - natalie clifford barney

Main / Sisters are in it just for themselves
Aug 21, 2005, 04:00 PM
Quote from: "Mr Benn"
I'm dreadfully sorry but I think you've confused me with someone who has the slightest interest in talking to you.

I don't waste my precious time talking to the proponents of the hate-ideology of feminism. I post for the sake of other readers.

As I thought, you can't back up your assertions.
Main / Sisters are in it just for themselves
Aug 21, 2005, 03:47 PM
Quote from: "Mr Benn"
I haven't seen any original views. All I've seen are bland platitudes, fashionable buzz-phrases and the repetition and re-shuffling of feminist doctrines. Kind of like a child playing with lego bricks.

OK, cite those you object to.
Main / Sisters are in it just for themselves
Aug 21, 2005, 03:45 PM
Quote from: "woof"

ahh, so you admit that the idea of the patriarch is a myth?

Patriarchy is a societal issue, it is not something I blame on men so much as it is how society is and from where it must evolve. The average man (of course some are highly misogynist, but then there are misandrist women as well) does little to promote patriarchy, they simply try to fit into the boxes that already exist.

I don't know why men are so resistant to this... we all should be free to expand our horizons, to not be subject to narrow definitions of who we must be. If you and your partner think it kewl for you to be a sahp, be one. If it is to be a nurse, be one. If you prefer men, be with a man. I see so many men post of what is expected of them... the expectations are frequently self imposed, trying to fit what they perceive is manhood.

Nothing wrong with that... if it is choice, and not forced upon you, and right now... it tends to be forced. So both women and men have a vested interest in casting it off. Removal of patriachy does not mean imposition of matriarchy.
Main / Sisters are in it just for themselves
Aug 21, 2005, 03:39 PM
Quote from: "Mr Benn"

Typhonblue and IAmSupaSpy are not submissive by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, their charm is that they THINK FOR THEMSELVES.

You are the submissive one: you've submitted your mind to an ideology.

You just go right on thinking that...

by the way, no views of mine mentioned...
Main / Goodbye Feminism
Aug 21, 2005, 03:25 PM
Quote from: "Mr Benn"
Most heterosexual women WANT to be owned, objectified and possessed by a man. It turns them on and fulfills them.

Oh, really? Learn something new every day! Thank goddess I am not hetero <phew> Oops... forgot about how many guys think they can "straighten us dykes out."
Main / Goodbye Feminism
Aug 21, 2005, 03:23 PM
Quote from: "bukowski"

Is the fact that men are in the type of jobs that do most damage to their bodies, sometimes to the point of and early death, not objectification of men's bodies?

I don't know... is it? Do you object to this? Do you speak against it? If it bothered me, I sure as hell would speak up and work to change it. No one should suffer such working conditions, we've an oblgation to have the best of safety standards and rules in all workplaces. In the US, we would hear this trashed as liberal nonsense.

And if it is, does this not show the sexism of the feminists when they care more about men looking at naked pictures of women, than they do about men being hurt and killed at work?

Feminists speak within a feminist context.. that does not mean that is the entire range of our interests, only our views on that issue. Most of us are pretty liberal and all for changing such things.
Main / Sisters are in it just for themselves
Aug 21, 2005, 03:18 PM
Quote from: "Mr Benn"
I didn't say I prefer to interact with men. I said I don't debate feminist womyn.

There are a number of non-feminazi women online around men's fora such as IAmSupaSpy and TyphonBlue who are a pleasure to talk with.

So which views of mine qualify me for feminazi status?

I've not expressed anything but a desire for equality... yet you say you don't wish to debate me, preferring 'women who are a pleasure to talk with. Hmmmm... to me, that means women who are submissive, because nothing I've expressed in any way, shape, or form is encouraging of separatism, women as superior, men as evil, etc.

Is it my support for Title IX?

For more women in government so that it is more representative of the country?

Equal opportunity?

Treating each other with respect?

Saying US courts are overall fair in divorce and child custody cases?

My worry over young men disconnecting from education?

Do share, I'd love to know.

Main / Goodbye Feminism
Aug 21, 2005, 03:13 PM
Can men play in the LPGA? Can a man join a "women only" gym like women fought to be able to join men only gyms (thus pretty much taking them out of the market). Can male sportscasters go into the female locker rooms to interview female athletes? What abot the good ol sister network in Human Resources? Ever worked in an office with mostly women? They don't have their cliques? Yeah, the political  parties pick more men, they pick who toes their line and who they think will get them votes.

Reasonable questions, and point taken on the LPGA. Male sportscasters should take that particular issue up with the individual sports. Personally, I'd rather all reporters stay out of locker rooms and have an interview room for this purpose.

Seriously? Given the past 10-20 years, I'm betting a lot worry about it. Many of us Gen X and Y types grew up in broken homes or witnessed it with others worry. I don't fear marriage, I fear divorce because it seems that if I don't hand over the reins completely to my wife, she can and human nature being what it is, will likely ruin me. Many worry about a balance of providing for the family but not being a workaholic to pay the bills for the wife's desires.

That is a very jaded view of marriage. Most divorces are initiated by women for one reason... the person they married was not in fact who they were married to later. Men dislike many things women like, but women go into marriage thinking the man who has been wooing them is representative... nope, not, he's been romantic to win her over. When a man not inclined to open up and communicate what is inside reaches this point, he withdraws and frustrates the heck out of his partner.

Partners need space, men and women both... it's healthy to pursue one's own interests... but at the end of the day, sharing of that day is a good thing. Sharing of fears, dreams, frustrations, of sadness happiness... and being empathetic to her in return.. these things help build a strong relationship.

I'm not worried about a woman behind me, unless I perceive her to be acting in a threatening manner (say if she fit a "punk" stereotype or high on drugs), same as if a man did that. Also, the constitution already says we're all equal, although with legislation like VAWA apparently some are more equal than others.

VAWA uis an unfortunate title, and it would be wise to expand it to include men, though it tacitly already does, the title works against such inclusion... and it doesn't help men run like the wind from admitting they are abused. Women do as well, but think women are more inclined to speak up now.

No, men aren't dissed for what they wear usually. I don't "diss" women politicians if they aren't looking absolutely perfect. I diss them if I think they're full of shit.  Fashion sense, I've long been told is something women have and very few men have. Women seem to be the one's hung up on dissing people for what they wear. Most men don't care too much (except perhaps if the person looks like a total idiot :)). I care about what he's saying not that he's a slick willie in a nice armani.

In my experience, the Janet Reno's, Hillary Clintons, and Katherine Harris' of this world are dissed for their appearance, unlike men... and yes, women do occasionally do this as well, but it is usually men I hear or see making off colour remarks about them.

Pornography (as in the visual kind) is primarily viewed by men.. yes. What is pornography though? What is smut? What about romance novels that many women love? Women lean towards the emotional side of romance/sex, men lean towards the physical/visual. That doesn't mean that men and women only think that way. I'm frankly tired of being stereotyped that all I care about is Tn'A. Keep treating me like that and it'll come true because I'll finally realize that if I'm being castigated as a dog, I may as well act like one and enjoy what I can.[/quote]

There is nothing wrong with being visual, but there is also a line that is crossed that takes it from visual to objectification... which is not a good thing, it dehumanises. Men and women have to be more respectful of each other. I certainly try like hell to do so, even though men are not a big part of my world... i.e don't date men, etc. There are certainly men in this world who are very dear to me.
Main / Sisters are in it just for themselves
Aug 21, 2005, 02:54 PM
Quote from: "Mr Benn"
I occasionally point out the hypocracy of feminist womyn for the sake of other men reading, but I have about as much interest in engaging in discussion with them as a black man would with a KKK member.

Yanno, in reality, this is probably close to my own opinion... I'd rather interact with women... but felt it might be fun to scoot over here and debate a bit.
Main / Goodbye Feminism
Aug 21, 2005, 02:21 PM
Quote from: "brian44"

Well, in the UK we had a lady Primeminister in 1979. She won the election because so many women voted for her because she was a woman rather than what she stood for.

You're sure of this... no one voted for her because of her views? Hmmm.

How many women get kicked out of their home and away from their children even though it was their partner who committed adultery?

I mentioned somewhere, don't know if it was in this thread, but yeah... y'all have it a bit different in the UK, and that has to change. It's not like that in the US. Y'all have my sympathy there... but there are also the cases where one knocks down their ex's door, and that stuff is simply unacceptable as well.

Men don't worry about women attacking them, they worry about men attacking them, which is more likely than a woman being attacked by a man.

My point exactly. Women however... do have to worry about it.

I once worked as a temp in an investment bank. I arrived without a tie and was told to go out and buy one or get another job. The women didn't have to wear ties, in fact as long as the didn't wear jeans they could get away with a hell of a lot more than the men.

I do believe expecting someone to wear business attire, be it for men or women, is quite different than make up and form fitting clothing, eh? If you felt there was an injustice, why not raise the issue?

I have on two occasions. Being a mature adult I shrugged it off and put it down to experience rather than suing the crap out of the company I worked for.

So a woman put her hands on you? Totally inappropriate.

My wife hit me on a number of occasions, she had a mean left hook that used to connect with my right ear and was very painful. I never hit her once, or any of my other girlfriends.

Again, completely unacceptable, she was flat out wrong and needs anger management therapy... but more abuse is committed by men, and even men are victims of male on male violence, the incidence with lesbians are far less than with gay men. This is not to slam men, all abuse is wrong, and all of it needs to be addressed and stopped, and men shouldn't be stigmatised for speaking up... (which is representative of patriarchy, slamming men for doing so.

Are you serious? In the UK, it is women who go out and watch strippers these days. Men feel ashamed when they do it, women go and have a great time looking at male strippers. They have mags as well.

Ya won't catch me doing so... and if I may ask... are men saying anything about it? Are you willing to work together to work to at least diminish the sex industry?
Main / Goodbye Feminism
Aug 21, 2005, 02:10 PM
Quote from: "SouthernGuy"

There is a HUGE distinction between residential and commercial construction, anyone who has spent any time in the indistry knows this. Adding a room to your home doesn't even remotely compare to the daily grind of real commercial work. Apples and oranges...

You are skilled, I am skilled, good enough... or does it not stop until one has worked on the tallest building in the world, building it single handedly?

Five years ago, I slipped and almost fell four stories straight down the elevator shaft of Marriot Hotel I was building as a project manager. I barely caught myself and had to suck up the butterflies and continue my workday, hands still shaking because i had to support my family. What's the worst that can happen in residential work, a piece of sheet rock could fall over on you?


Once again, it's about who builds the most impressive structure, uses the most dangerous tools, and is in the most dangerous workspace?

Did you choose this field, or were you selected for it?

I can cite my (non construction) work skills, but what relevance does it have? Women are capable of doing this work, and they have done this work. I'm comfortable in an office and equally comfortable with a sawsall, so are many men and women... but men choose this field... so long as it's open to women, no problem, and in fact... never said there was one.
Main / Sisters are in it just for themselves
Aug 21, 2005, 02:03 PM
Why don't you say why I posted that, sg?

I've no problem with my idiology being 'challenged,' that's what I'm here for. There is a way of debating other people without slamming them individually. I will treat all of you with respect - even as we debate - so long as you do the same. You can joke with me all you want, but when it crosses from humour into being nasty, I back off.

I've enjoyed the exchanges today... but these posts took on a dismissive, sarcastic tone, and I'll not have that. You are free to do so, as I am free to back off...

that's kewl if ya just wish to baitch to each other about women, but if you wish to have real discourse where your point of view is challenged and you have to defend it (and of course challenge mine) then be civil.
Quote from: "Sir Farts-A-Lot"
feminism isn't like nazi-ism(?) its more like communism.

lmaooooooooo! I have to agree with the title, but... sorry that was funny.
Wrestlers, it's always the wrestlers!

Title IX is arguably one of the greatest pieces of social legislation passed in this country. My last year of high school, approximately 300,000 women played sports in this country... mostly in field hockey and gymnastics.

And now, thanks to Title IX, the figure is 3,000,000... having also transformed this country's sports enviroment. I am an avid sports fan, a diehard Celtics fan, but women play basketball fundamentally better. They don't have the strength and speed of men, but on balance they know the game better, and play it better as a team. This should, with time, result in seeing some women coaches in the men's game... if we don't, something is amiss.

I was in an ESPNZone in Baltimore a few years back, a young man and woman, there together, were shooting hoops, it was no contest, she won easily... and it was no big deal to either of them... my generation, such would have been a big deal. It was great to see it play out that way.

This does not mean I condone anyone losing their sport, not being able to play... but the solutions so far are all aimed at gutting Title IX, and that is totally unacceptable. What we need to be doing is finding a way to include more under the sports umbrella, not shifting resources. Le't find a way to get more men and women involved.
Main / Sisters are in it just for themselves
Aug 21, 2005, 01:40 PM
Folks, when it gets nasty, I'm out.

If you wish to debate and or have fun, I'm in... but when it gets nasty, as appears to be the case in this thread now, please proceed with debating yourselves.