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Messages - Kate
Thanks to everyone for your thoughtful replies. I'm a bit busy tomorrow but I will read over them again and post a reply asap when I've had a ponder.
Hi to everyone here.
Right. I have now had time to have a brief survey of this forum, and it seems so far that a lot of the posters here have a very different definition of feminism than myself...even more so than I had previously thought! There are a few issues that arise from this, not least ones regarding who gets to decide premises/epistemological definitions, but here is my no.1 concern:
Some, if not all, of the people here plainly feel that feminism has hurt them. Directly. As a human being, I am concerned about that, since I personally think that political ideology should NEVER trump compassion. Whether I agree or disagree with your take on feminism is not really the issue here. (Well, it kind of is, but bear with me.) I am having some difficulty in deciding how to proceed, and here's why:
I don't want to be the cause of pain and suffering for anyone if I can help it.
Some people have directly stated that feminism hurts them/is still hurting them. For some, this may mean not engaging with feminism or feminists more than they actually *have to* (and I can see why, if you regard feminism as a hate movement).
I identify as a feminist. Not by any definitons I've seen here so far, no, but still: I am a feminist, and for some people that means the enemy. If you want to get into why I am a feminist, definitions etc we can do that, but as far as this thread goes, my main priority is going to be listening and asking questions.
However, I can see why even that approach is going to be offensive to some. A KKK member on an anti-racist forum is probably going to be offensive even just asking questions. So here's my problem: even given that I am going to try and consider it from YOUR point of view, I will need to ask questions and clarify as to what that POV is and why. I have a lot of questions and a lot of points of disagreement with what's been said. IF, as some of you might well think, it is not worth your time, or worse, it is going to cause you pain to even talk to me because I am a feminist, then I would be grateful if you could indicate that.* Otherwise, I don't think it's fair on my side to start critiquing anything anyone has said on this forum.
*Just to be clear, I am not implying and do not intend to imply that doing so indicates anything in the way of admission of defeat or whatever as regards your arguments.
Sorry, Sociopathic Revolution, didn't mean to imply that you WERE Mark...
"I've always challenged feminism because it's major semantics even lends itself to being female-centric. I'm certain you believe otherwise, that's part of my personal platform."
-If by 'you', you mean me, (as opposed to a general 'you'), then I don't, actually, believe otherwise. I'd agree with you; IMO feminism IS female-centric. My questions are more to do with why and how MRAs feel this is actively causing harm to men and boys, and why (presumably) they think the Men's Rights Movement isn't going to be harmful to girls and women. I'll look forward to hearing your thoughts on the matter, too.
re: MAUS -sure sounds like you've had some interesting life experiences. And, as far as I know, there IS no word for 'spinster' in French!?
Greetings, Sociopathic Revolution -sorry, I wasn't familiar with you from Hugo's blog, though i just had a look and by coincidence this was from a post of yours that I found:
"I believe you can be both for equality and be a MRA and a feminist in the original definition." - Mark
You nailed it, Mark. Right there. "
-not sure if this is still your position, but it's a coincidence that it relates to my own line of questioning about these things. Its my hope that there's still the possibility of rational discussion about the matter. (Hopelessly optimistic???) I can see that individual MRAs and individual feminists have pretty different definitions of what constitutes Feminism or the Men's Rights Movement, but I want to make up my own mind on the matter. I'm with Sherlock on this one:
'It is an old maxim of mine that when you have excluded the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.'
I'm not going to get into criticisms or defenses of Hugo - I'm sure he's quite capable of defending himself. I came here primarily because Mr Bad felt he was somewhat fettered in his arguments there and I'm interested in unfettered arguments, particularly ones which challenge my own beliefs.
Hi, Gonzokid. Are you 'The Gonzman' who posts at Hugo's?
Hi Dr E, and MAUS.
Regarding odd ducks, I am of the opinion that they are often the most interesting people to talk to...odd duck often = independent thinker.
I'm not familiar with MGTOW. I had a look at the website briefly - is it a separatist mens' movement?
"a woman with a penis" lol, this reminds me of a book by Will Self, "Cock & Bull Story" - a woman grows a penis and a man grows a vagina, kind of a black comedy.
As far unresolved lesbian issues go, I've met a few women like that myself (I'm bisexual)!
Hi to everyone here at the SYG forums. My name is Kate, and I'm a 27 yr-old British woman living in Japan. I'm here after an invitation from Mr Bad on one of the threads at Hugo Schwyzer's blog:
Mr Bad: "I will refrain from thread drift here because for me and other MRAs it get us banned. If Hugo wants to start a thread about masculinity - healthy or otherwise - I'll be glad to discuss the topic with you. Otherwise you may come to Stand Your Ground, join our group and discuss it with us freely, with no restrictions or censorship other than abiding by our rules, which are quite reasonable."
OK, well I've read the rules and they're reasonable...I suspect that I am coming from a different political viewpoint than some of the posters here, so it should be interesting.
With that said, Mr Bad, let's have at it. I can repost my original questions or you can suggest another way to debate. I guess what I'm having trouble with is the idea that feminism's focus 'not harming girls and women' is somehow actively causing harms to boys and men.* I'm interested, too, in your definition of healthy/unhealthy masculinity.
*I don't mean to misrepresent your position BTW. That's how I read your criticism at Hugo's. I hope you'll be able to clarify here.