Where Do You Stand?

Started by K9, Jun 25, 2006, 12:59 PM

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K9

I've noticed several father's rights groups disclaim certain elements of the Men's rights platform. Are there any SYG members here that do not subscribe to the entire platform?
Choice For Men
Equal family rights
Domestic violence
Equal Prison sentencing
Selective Service
Due Process in Family Court

Any ommissions?
Explaining misandry to a feminist is like explaining "wet" to a fish.

dr e

One of the divisive issues is circumcision.  Some feel is it a huge issue and others feel it shouldn't be mentioned.  I think it's a big issue.

Also, paternity fraud and men's health issues.  Education bias, male bashing, title IX.
Contact dr e  Lifeboats for the ladies and children, icy waters for the men.  Women have rights and men have responsibilties.

gwallan

Quote from: "K9"
I've noticed several father's rights groups disclaim certain elements of the Men's rights platform. Are there any SYG members here that do not subscribe to the entire platform?
Choice For Men
Equal family rights
Domestic violence
Equal Prison sentencing
Selective Service
Due Process in Family Court

Any ommissions?


Mens health
False allegations
Bias in the education system
Affirmative action(big no-no for me)
In 95% of things 100% of people are alike. It's the other 5%, the bits that are different, that make us interesting. It's also the key to our existence, and future, as a species.

Men's Rights Activist

Any omissions?

#  Office(s) of Men's Health  There is an Office of Women's Health, but none for men.  I believe that is at the Federal level, but that's also the case in many states.  

#  Men's Commissions  There are over 270 women's commissions in America, but only one that I know of in New Hampshire.  

#  Men's Studies Programs (from the masculist perspective)  There are over 700 women's studies programs on college and university campuses, but hardly any Men's Studies programs and many of those are infested with "male gender feminist" teaching.

#  Domestic Violence Shelters for Men  Domestic violence is an issue all it's own with men being denied services on an epic scale, and a fallacious/fraudulent view of d.v. being presented as fact by gender feminists.

# Sexual Harassment Laws (addressing gender feminist witch hunting of men based on gender feminist fraud, lies, etc.)  Sexual harassment law started out dealing with overt discrimination (almost all women), where for example sex was demanded for promotion.  Now it "witch hunts" situations where women feel "uncomfortable," based predominately on "what a reasonable woman would assume."  Sexual harassment law itself is sexist & hateful against men.
Life, Liberty, & Pursuit of Happiness are fundamental rights for all (including males), & not contingent on gender feminist approval or denial. Consider my "Independence" from all tyrannical gender feminist ideology "Declared" - Here & Now!

Little Lion

Quote from: "Dr Evil"
One of the divisive issues is circumcision.  Some feel is it a huge issue and others feel it shouldn't be mentioned.  I think it's a big issue.

Also, paternity fraud and men's health issues.  Education bias, male bashing, title IX.


I agree with Dr. Evil. Give up on circumcision, and you undermine your own position that men have a right to their own bodies. My support for a woman's right to her own body is conditional: if pro-choice advocates are unwilling to support a man's right to his own body, specifically, the right to uninterrupted sexual development, then I will support the repeal of Roe vs. Wade and, in particular, the ban on abortion in South Dakota.

If, on the other hand, pro-choice advocates will support the idea that men too have a right to their own bodies, which includes the reproductive right to uninterrupted sexual development, a right that should be applied impartially to all genders, then I will support Roe v. Wade and oppose the move to ban abortion in South Dakota.

There is nothing immoral about conditional support for abortion rights, as the subject is morally unresolvable and must be transferred to the legal and political system for resolution [see Bernard Gert, Common Morality: Deciding What To Do, Oxford University Press, 2005].

Routine infant circumcision is an unjustified violation of moral rules. At the very least, the controversy surrounding the subject means that routine infant circumcision cannot be a strongly morally justified violation of moral rules. Strongly justified violations of moral rules are permitted, provided a high standard is reached: there must be uniform agreement among equally-informed impartial rational persons to publicly allow the violation. An example of a strongly justified violation of moral rules is the amputation of a limb to save a life. Here there is no controversy.

But the situation with circumcision is different. There is significant disagreement, and so the strongest possible moral argument in favor of routine infant circumcision cannot conclude that it is strongly morally justified: the strongest possible conclusion (ignoring the medical evidence and the testimony of thousands of restoring men) in favor is that routine infant circumcision is a weakly justified violation of moral rules.

Accordingly, persons who circumcise infants or who authorize the procedure are subject to moral judgment (unless they could not possibly have been aware of the controversy surrounding the subject, or of changing medical and ethical opinion).

Men's rights activists who ignore or dismiss the subject of routine infant circumcision are unwittingly undermining their own claim to reproductive autonomy.

Malakas

Quote
I've noticed several father's rights groups disclaim certain elements of the Men's rights platform. Are there any SYG members here that do not subscribe to the entire platform?
Choice For Men
Equal family rights
Domestic violence
Equal Prison sentencing
Selective Service
Due Process in Family Court
Objection your Honour.
If I wanted the very best for my sons and grandsons (which I do), I wouldn't start from there. It's still thinking inside the box. Does everything have to be phrased in terms of the western feminist mindset?
Are we so constricted in our thinking that the best we can do is feebly launch a counter-attack via an agenda that's already been prescribed for us?
'm an asylum seeker. Don't send me back.

Little Lion

Quote from: "Malakas"
Objection your Honour.
If I wanted the very best for my sons and grandsons (which I do), I wouldn't start from there. It's still thinking inside the box. Does everything have to be phrased in terms of the western feminist mindset?
Are we so constricted in our thinking that the best we can do is feebly launch a counter-attack via an agenda that's already been prescribed for us?


Can you articulate your position in constructive and non-critical terms for we hapless unfortunates, who have yet to attain the effortless enlightenment made possible through the overarching Malakas Weltungshauum?

SIAM

I stick with human rights - not divided by gender:-

- a parent's right to see their children - that right enforced by law if necessary

- a human's right to be innocent until proven guilty.  That includes anonymity until a guilty verdict is given out.  False accusers must be punished heavily.

- the abolishment of gender-specific laws where it's possible victims can be of either gender.

- the enforcement of a 'gender blind' policy when applying the law.

Those 4 cover a LOT of ground for me.

PaulGuelph

1. An end to prejudice against men and boys. The feelings and lives of men and boys should count for just as much as those of females. Equal rights & equal respect.

This umbrella ideal that covers everything else needs to be said in a clear way over and over, so that people can see that the goals of the men's movement are all part of one thing and are not just a list of grevances.

It needs to be seen as a revamping of our Western culture, rather than a nitpicking at various aspects of it. Then it will look like we have a cohesive vision.
Men's Movie Guide:  http://www.mensmovieguide.com   The Healing Tomb: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B081N1X145

scarbo

Quote from: "K9"
I've noticed several father's rights groups disclaim certain elements of the Men's rights platform. Are there any SYG members here that do not subscribe to the entire platform?


I don't support Choice For Men.

Fidelbogen

My own "umbrella" way of stating the case would be:

Vigorous  legislative and judicial action to
extirpate anything in the realm of law and public policy
which stigmatizes maleness in any way.

The lawyers and jurisprudentialists will have their work
cut out for them...

As for circumcision: Maybe it is not the best idea to cut off part
of a person's body without obtaining his permission first?
That sounds about right.   :!:

Christiane

Quote from: "scarbo"

I don't support Choice For Men.


This is to me a very divisive issue.   I support choice for men, but this issue is a tough sell I think.  To me it's completely logical, but I think the public sees it very differently.

We actually had a lively family discussion about this very issue last Sunday, on Father's Day.   The argument against choice for men is, "if you have unprotected sex, you pay the consequences".   But there's no truly reliable birth control for men, and once conception occurs, the woman is the one with the choice.   The man has no say if she terminates the pregnancy, but if she has the child, he's on the hook for fatherhood and everything that implies, which is probably mostly financial, but also emtional and that's huge too.  

I'd be interested in your line of reasoning on this scarbo.   There are a lot of people who do not believe in choice for men.   I can't quote a statistic, and I'm always suspicious of them anyway, but if I had to guess, I'd say you're very safely in the majority.

johnnyp

I think all of the special interest group attention is part of the problem.  Why do women have so many special programs?  If government stayed out of all this special interest activity (men/women/blacks/hispanic...) we would not have so many issues.

Force of government should not be used in most of these areas.  Taxation and giving your money to a special interest group is a form of force (if you do not believe be, try not paying your taxes and see what happens).

If government stayed out of all this crap, I think the natural forces of value and contribution would find a rational balance.
 woman needs a man like a fish needs water

scarbo

I guess I'm a hardliner on sex. Don't want a kid? Don't have sex.

The cold hard truth is exactly that: "if you have unprotected sex, you pay the consequences" is exactly right. We scold the feminists for not standing up to the consequences of their actions, but Choice For Men is doing that, IMO. It's looking for a way out. I don't buy it. "Life ain't fair" applies real well here. Choice For Men attempts to make it fair. IMO, it falls way short.

You father a child, accidentally or otherwise, you BE a father to that child. You don't look to sign a piece of paper to get out of it. I actually advocate the complete opposite: BE a father, GO FOR CUSTODY, and get HER to pay CS to YOU! Yeah, I know, long shot at best. But go for it. You'll be glad you did.

If the woman you're having sex with is that devious that she would lie to you about using birth control, should you be having sex with her? And if she has you fooled into trusting her, should you be having sex with anyone at all or should you be using your brain more and listening to your penis less?

The possibility of pregnancy aside, don't young men who are partaking in casual sex protect themselves from STD's anymore?

Yeah, I know the raincoat sucks. But the alternatives are WAY worse.

Disclaimer for reference: I'm 46 and my sexual drive is way more under control than it was in my 20's. So, this is all easy for me to say. But I'm saying it anyway.

(PS. The Chicago White Sox are AWESOME. Listening to the game while I type. They came back from being down 9-1 in the 7th to tie it in the bottom of the 9th with two outs on a grand slam. Sorry, just had to share!)

Christiane

Quote
Why do women have so many special programs?


They shouldn't.  Why do they?  That's a multi headed monster.

My daughter is headed off to college in just a few weeks...    :cry:

She's scheduling in July, and we're looking at the course offerings just yesterday.....

Women in ancient Greece  (Men in ancient Greece?  nada)
Women in Science   (Men in Science?   nada)

The list goes on and on...   and on....

We've talked about this ad nauseum.   The point I make to her is, "If there's "women" in the course title, and there's not a corresponding "men" course, it's drivel".  

Hope that sticks.

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