Manliness is back in America.

[typhonblue]

Well it's like this.   I've read a fair amount of articles & seen a fair amount of Dr. Phil / Oprah types that have zero respect for masculinity & that gets me pretty pissed off.

When an article comes along that views manliness as something to be proud of & not to flee from... That tends to make me happy.   The article has a couple of shots fired at the feminist movement, so again... tends to make me happy.

Manliness is something to be proud of but only X men have manliness right? (X being defined by women.)

Flatter to decieve. Or, in this case, flatter to manipulate.

[Christiane]

yes, bluedye:

This type of article is article is uncommon & I'm a "bird in the hand" type of guy. I'll take anything that doesn't cut men down at the ankles at this point.

I guess I'm a "glass half full" sort of person.   I see this as positive - a change from the zero articles in the past.   Let's take this as a positive and continue to move forward.

I'd rather work for positive progress, and tangible results, than argue the merits of esoteric arguments which the general public would never be interested in, or support.   While those arguments have merit, they are not useful in moving the cause forward in the public arena.

[typhonblue]

I'd rather work for positive progress, and tangible results, than argue the merits of esoteric arguments which the general public would never be interested in, or support.   While those arguments have merit, they are not useful in moving the cause forward in the public arena.

In my experience one shot, aimed true, has more impact then a thousand half-assed attempts.

Besides, this article still defines manhood via women. Even if it's a positive definition ("women really want, women really need...") at the end of the day it's still "women, women, women".

[bluedye]

...However, articles that steer men away from the current "lady-boy" image are a good thing.  Like I said... this one isn't perfect, but it beats what I'm used to seeing & is a step in the right direction.

To belabor the point I made... In Japan meterosexual is the default. I have heard countless posts on here about how superior asian women are to western in terms of warmth and respect(desire) directed to men.

Are the two connected? A society of men who take pride in their appearance and dress attractively have created a society of women who respect men and desire them.

So then it could be postulated that men in the US that dress well would be respected.  Since the beginning of civilized Western culture, men have always been interested in staying "current" with the look of the time.  Sure not all men, but there have always been men that dress well in our society.  You'd think we'd see the men that dressed well would still receive the respect that came with it.   This is not the case, however.

Using your logic & applying it to the Western world, we'd be able to assume that the reason men aren't respected here is due to the way they dress.  I think that's giving feminism a "free pass" & I will tend not to agree with that.

It's widely known that asians also have more respect for their elderly than we here in the US.  It wouldn't surprise me if respect is just more ingrained in their society than here.

[typhonblue]

Using your logic & applying it to the Western world, we'd be able to assume that the reason men aren't respected here is due to the way they dress.  I think that's giving feminism a "free pass" & I will tend not to agree with that.

I think the connection is that being well-put together is a symptom of having pride in yourself which is a symptom of a society that does not denigrate men as inferior (physically, spiritually, morally, emotionally) to women.

It's widely known that asians also have more respect for their elderly than we here in the US.  It wouldn't surprise me if respect is just more ingrained in their society than here.

I'm not so sure about that. In the west there is a lot of respect for elderly people... if they're women. I've seen a few loud-mouthed gang-banger type boys get quiet and respectful around older ladies. I'd say that men are often the object of humor when they grow old. Witness all the sit-com humor with an elder male relative as the butt of the joke. Almost all of these families have a "crazy old coot" grandpa, even though men are less likely to make it to such venerable ages so a "crazy old bat" grandma makes more sense.)

[strangedisk]

This is interesting, but I don't think there's a conflict between respecting a man's right to behave in a traditionally male way, and respecting a man's right to be whatever he wants to be, even if that's not being traditional.

However, if we don't respect a man's right to be who he really is, we aren't really respecting him at all.  Which means we aren't truly respecting him in the traditional roles either, we are just respecting the traditional roles, with or without him.

[bluedye]

Well it's like this.   I've read a fair amount of articles & seen a fair amount of Dr. Phil / Oprah types that have zero respect for masculinity & that gets me pretty pissed off.

When an article comes along that views manliness as something to be proud of & not to flee from... That tends to make me happy.   The article has a couple of shots fired at the feminist movement, so again... tends to make me happy.

Manliness is something to be proud of but only X men have manliness right? (X being defined by women.)

Flatter to decieve. Or, in this case, flatter to manipulate.

I never said men should strictly adhere to the author's version of manliness never to step outside that classification for any reason at any time.

I merely thought the article had many points that were nice for men to hear in a sea  of articles aimed at defaming them.

[typhonblue]

Well it's like this.   I've read a fair amount of articles & seen a fair amount of Dr. Phil / Oprah types that have zero respect for masculinity & that gets me pretty pissed off.

When an article comes along that views manliness as something to be proud of & not to flee from... That tends to make me happy.   The article has a couple of shots fired at the feminist movement, so again... tends to make me happy.

Manliness is something to be proud of but only X men have manliness right? (X being defined by women.)

Flatter to decieve. Or, in this case, flatter to manipulate.

I never said men should strictly adhere to the author's version of manliness never to step outside that classification for any reason at any time.

I merely thought the article had many points that were nice for men to hear in a sea  of articles aimed at defaming them.

Fair enough.

[Daymar]

Using your logic & applying it to the Western world, we'd be able to assume that the reason men aren't respected here is due to the way they dress.

I think you might have it backwards. Men don't care as much about "pampering" themselves. How often do you hear women talk about pampering themselves because they feel they deserve it?

Being a woman is hard you know. Bearing the kids, taking care of the kids, working, cleaning house and trying to motivate the poor lazy slob of a husband.

"But by that measure, my wife, who has gone through the horror of childbirth and who runs a family of six, is more of a man than me."

[Christiane]

I'd rather work for positive progress, and tangible results, than argue the merits of esoteric arguments which the general public would never be interested in, or support.   While those arguments have merit, they are not useful in moving the cause forward in the public arena.

In my experience one shot, aimed true, has more impact then a thousand half-assed attempts.

Besides, this article still defines manhood via women. Even if it's a positive definition ("women really want, women really need...") at the end of the day it's still "women, women, women".

Yes, yes, you can be right in your historical analysis all day, but where are you aiming this shot?   You've got politics to play here, my dear, and that's a whole other animal from the esoteric academic arguments.   To move the MRM forward, the general public must be engaged.  

What is your plan for that?

Just as an aside - my latest hateful commercial has 2 women looking at the shade built into the glass of a picture window.   One demonstrates...  while the husband is in the yard doing everything wrong.    He burns the food, the grill catches on fire, flips over, he gets a hose...  then the grill explodes and lands over the fence....  All while the women pay no attention to him at all.  They are concerned with how smoothly the shades move within the windows...

Some of you have seen this commercial?   It's my latest notecard in my "infuriating anti-male commercials" file.

[typhonblue]

Yes, yes, you can be right in your historical analysis all day, but where are you aiming this shot?   You've got politics to play here, my dear, and that's a whole other animal from the esoteric academic arguments.   To move the MRM forward, the general public must be engaged.

Honey, cutie-pie, luv, smoochy-coo... I think you'll find that most revolutions are created by a handfull of people who are thinking just the right thoughts and saying just the right things for the geist of the time.

Or, alternatively, they're just aware of a deeper shift already occuring in the human over-soul.

What is your plan for that?

It's a secret.

[bluedye]

I guess I'm a "glass half full" sort of person.   I see this as positive - a change from the zero articles in the past.   Let's take this as a positive and continue to move forward.

I'd rather work for positive progress, and tangible results, than argue the merits of esoteric arguments which the general public would never be interested in, or support.   While those arguments have merit, they are not useful in moving the cause forward in the public arena.

I agree.  Every little bit counts.  If articles like this can start a framework, the finer details can be hammered out later.

It's important to remove the stigmas from masculinity.  

Articles like this can help.

[bluedye]

I think you might have it backwards. Men don't care as much about "pampering" themselves. How often do you hear women talk about pampering themselves because they feel they deserve it?

I know full well "pampering" is something reserved for the ladies.  What I am talking about is different, however.  Wearing nice clothes is not "pampering."  Men want to dress nice for a multitude of reasons, none of which are to feel like pampered divas.

"But by that measure, my wife, who has gone through the horror of childbirth and who runs a family of six, is more of a man than me."

Well that quote did smack of mangina ownership, but it also spoke of the technical definition of manliness & how it was ambiguous.  He was trying to give purpose to the word in a more man-centric way & not in a way that could be applied to anyone.  His means to do this... yea, flawed.

[Daymar]

Men want to dress nice for a multitude of reasons, none of which are to feel like pampered divas.

You mean in our society?

You might also be able to compare them to the clothes of a monk or priest, etc.

[bluedye]

You mean in our society?

Absolutely.  Whether it be to attract the ladies or to "fit in" or just because they like the way it looks.   There's a reason the GAP, Abercrombie, & Express have stores with BOTH men's & women's departments.  ...We men buy & wear the stuff, too.

You might also be able to compare them to the clothes of a monk or priest, etc.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this.