Manliness is back in America.

[Rob Layton]

The latest instalment on manly men.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=395421&in_page_id=1879

Oh for manly men!
by HELENA FRITH POWELL, Daily Mail

22:25pm 12th July 2006

So I was delighted to read in yesterday's Daily Mail that America is experiencing a 'Menaissance', and that the movement may yet find its way to Britain.

In the States, the dreary metrosexual with his face creams and liberal ways has been replaced by a new macho type of man who has more in common with Hercules than with Graham Norton.

A new book called The A To Z Of Manliness is number two on the bestseller list in New York. This is hardly surprising. Forty years of feminism has confused the hell out of men. They no longer know what we want.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=395421&in_page_id=1879

[Christiane]

Yes, yes, you can be right in your historical analysis all day, but where are you aiming this shot?   You've got politics to play here, my dear, and that's a whole other animal from the esoteric academic arguments.   To move the MRM forward, the general public must be engaged.

Honey, cutie-pie, luv, smoochy-coo... I think you'll find that most revolutions are created by a handfull of people who are thinking just the right thoughts and saying just the right things for the geist of the time.

Or, alternatively, they're just aware of a deeper shift already occuring in the human over-soul.

What is your plan for that?

It's a secret.

tb, you actually made me laugh !   You have a sense of humor !   God be praised !

Look, this is not Moscow in 1917.    You would have fit in well there.

I'll keep hammering that point - pragmatic action.

And you'll keep hammering your point - ideology was/is essential.

My major point is, talk all you want about Christianity being responsible for the state of men today, and you'll get nowhere.    That's a jolly haha in academia, but the mainstream public will turn away from you on that one.   This is a Christian country.   To advance our objective, we must appeal to the mainstream.  

The mainstream will respond to inequity.   Unfairness.   Politically, we should start with the evangelicals, and branch out from there.   The left has some support for us, but it's marginal.   The evangelical right is where we should start.

[typhonblue]

And you'll keep hammering your point - ideology was/is essential.

Doubter all the way to a person who can lead the MRA to victory in two weeks flat. Congrats. I'm still muddling around with my own anti-male predjudices and I've been working on this for four years.

My major point is, talk all you want about Christianity being responsible for the state of men today, and you'll get nowhere.    That's a jolly haha in academia, but the mainstream public will turn away from you on that one.   This is a Christian country.   To advance our objective, we must appeal to the mainstream.

Right.

You think the mainstream will respond to injustice? Well, the only problem is this:

http://www.physorg.com/news2346.html

Most people would rather have men suffer a beheading then a woman suffer a paper cut. And it's an ingrained response.

*THAT* is what the MRA has to combat. Until it gets people actually giving two shits about men's pain they will listen, nod their heads and continue to blithly support their sisters, mothers, aunts and daughters in misandry.

As for me? I have no clue what I can do for the rest of society but I can figure out the threads that shape my own psyche and try to resolve my internal demons. Realizing that Christianity is the root of misandry helped me do that.

The evangelical right is where we should start.

Why?

No wait! Go for it! You should be on evangical sites RIGHT NOW preaching the gospel. No point wasting any more time on here.

[Christiane]

No wait! Go for it! You should be on evangical sites RIGHT NOW preaching the gospel. No point wasting any more time on here!

NO, NO, NO.... no, no... no........     no........  


no....

This is not looking good for you, tb.....    

Right next to me, the restaurant is "She who eschewed organized religion and opted for the easy way out so she could go to dinner at the nice Arab restaurant on the corner.... ".

The Aladdin Cafe is my favorite.    The Hummus is to die for.  

Mint tea?

[Christiane]

Do you seriously want to send me as a plant on the evangelical sites?

[Darth Sidious]

Realizing that Christianity is the root of misandry helped me do that.

Excuse me? :shock:

The same religion which teaches God came to this Earth as a man to pay the penalty for our transgressions in order that we may be reunited with God is "the root of misandry?"  The same religion which teaches the man is to be the head of the house is "the root of misandry?"  The same religion which requires its elders to be men is "the root of misandry?"  And to think there are people out there who call it a "misogynist religion."  Unbelievable!  

You may not realise this, but the gospel taught in many churches, particularly "mainstream" churches, is not the Gospel of the early Church.  The "mainstream" gospel of today is a social gospel and the churches who promote it have become nothing more than Leftist social clubs and activist centres.

True Christianity recognises the value of men.

[whome112]

We appear to be in a period of anti-feminist activity. This may be a lead up to a period of pro-male activity. We need a period of pro-male activity, but are not getting it, yet.

One thing in this generally OK article is the preaching on men's responsibility to the family without ever mentioning women's responsibility to men. This is a problem and a BIG one. We cannot arrive at a better society without including women's duty / responsibility to men.

whome

[strangedisk]

True Christianity recognises the value of men.

As sacrifices.

[Stallywood]

I'd rather work for positive progress, and tangible results, than argue the merits of esoteric arguments which the general public would never be interested in, or support.   While those arguments have merit, they are not useful in moving the cause forward in the public arena.

In my experience one shot, aimed true, has more impact then a thousand half-assed attempts.

Besides, this article still defines manhood via women. Even if it's a positive definition ("women really want, women really need...") at the end of the day it's still "women, women, women".

I tend to agree with this assesment. The author inorder to gain the trust of a few men, writes a few complimentary words, and right away its....well at least he writes a few good things....its a good start. In the end, the result is the same. Manhood being defined as serving women. Its the same old shit sandwich... just served with fresh bread.
Stally

[typhonblue]

Do you seriously want to send me as a plant on the evangelical sites?

If you really think that's the avenue by which you can help the MRA, I think you should do it.

I don't understand the reasoning but I've been wrong before.

[bluedye]

I think the connection is that being well-put together is a symptom of having pride in yourself which is a symptom of a society that does not denigrate men as inferior (physically, spiritually, morally, emotionally) to women.

Well that still doesn't explain why even the men here that are well put together & have pride in themselves are still disrespected in the same fashion as their less fashionable brothers.

If women respect that which has a shiny wrapper, that would happen wherever the wrapper, um... wrapped.

If you're saying that men stopped feeling like they had to dress nice because society devalued them, then it's already too late at that point.   The factors causing their feelings of disrespect caused the "dress code violation" & now they're doubly screwed.  

...& that connection still takes the blame off of things like feminism & places it on men... all the while making women into purely superficial beings that will only respect that which sparkles.   I'd like to think asian women are more intelligent than that.

I'm not so sure about that. In the west there is a lot of respect for elderly people... if they're women. I've seen a few loud-mouthed gang-banger type boys get quiet and respectful around older ladies. I'd say that men are often the object of humor when they grow old. Witness all the sit-com humor with an elder male relative as the butt of the joke. Almost all of these families have a "crazy old coot" grandpa, even though men are less likely to make it to such venerable ages so a "crazy old bat" grandma makes more sense.)

Let's just say the "stick 'em in a home" & go back to your life is not something the asians do with the same prevalence as here.  It is a widely known fact there is more respect in the asian culture for their older generations.  Not just as it relates to the US... As it relates to everywhere.

[bluedye]

I tend to agree with this assesment. The author inorder to gain the trust of a few men, writes a few complimentary words, and right away its....well at least he writes a few good things....its a good start. In the end, the result is the same. Manhood being defined as serving women. Its the same old shit sandwich... just served with fresh bread.
Stally

Well everyone has their own barometer for progress.  ...To each, his own.

[bluedye]

My major point is, talk all you want about Christianity being responsible for the state of men today, and you'll get nowhere.    That's a jolly haha in academia, but the mainstream public will turn away from you on that one.   This is a Christian country.   To advance our objective, we must appeal to the mainstream.

Realizing that Christianity is the root of misandry helped me do that.

That mindset blames Christianity before radical feminists & their very direct, very persistent attack on men & family values.  If Christianity had more of an impact than the rad-fems & their war on men, I'd like to see some concrete proof.

Where is it?

Proof of the rad-fem's assault is everywhere.  Proof of the psychological damage it does to men is everywhere.

How can you explain how Christian men feel confused / boxed in / helpless in society IN ADDITION TO the non-Christian men that feel the same way.  How is this possible?

[typhonblue]

That mindset blames Christianity before radical feminists & their very direct, very persistent attack on men & family values.  If Christianity had more of an impact than the rad-fems & their war on men, I'd like to see some concrete proof.

Where is it?

Feminism is not developed in patriarchal or equitable societies. That's proof enough for me that feminism is a *symptom* and not a cause.

Proof of the rad-fem's assault is everywhere.  Proof of the psychological damage it does to men is everywhere.

To use one of my infamous analogies... Lets say we're looking at an infectious agent. The agent effects the kidneys, causing them to shut down. Waste builds up in the body, creating all sorts of negative effects... ulceration in the mouth, fatigue, seizures...

Suffering from this disease, would you rather be treated by a doctor who says "all that waste in your body is the culprit! We're going to have to put you on permenant dialysis!"

Or one that says, "Otherwise healthy people don't get a buildup of waste in their systems. You've obviously got something else wrong with you. Let's find out."

How can you explain how Christian men feel confused / boxed in / helpless in society IN ADDITION TO the non-Christian men that feel the same way.  How is this possible?

Because, as Christiane pointed out, we live in a Christian, womanist society.

But, taking a look at feminist rhetoric vs. christian, feminists believe men's sexuality is innately evil and predatory... they also believe men should be serving women financially. Christians likewise have a history of denigrating men's sexuality(victorians) and insisting that men serve women financially.

The only difference? Feminists insist on the government in enforcing this womanist meme, Christians trust in men's conditioning as children under their mother's care.

Legal imperative is one thing... If the enemy was *just* feminists I wouldn't despair as much because negating their bullshit is the easy task... Social imperative is another, far more difficult to change thing.

Social imperative dictates how, ultimately, even gender-neutral laws are interpreted.

[hansside]

Realizing that Christianity is the root of misandry helped me do that.

There are elements of misandry, or slave-moral as Nietzsche would say, in Christianity.

But to call Christianity the root of misandry is not realistic. Compared to Paganism Christianity surely represents progress concerning moral self-reflection.