Does Christianity have something to do with Feminism?

Started by typhonblue, Jul 17, 2006, 04:57 PM

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Does Christianity have something to do with Feminism?

No
15 (68.2%)
Yes
4 (18.2%)
Maybe
3 (13.6%)

Total Members Voted: 22

Voting closed: Jul 17, 2006, 04:57 PM

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MrsShades

Powder-monkey - the immaculate conception (an entirely catholic belief) does not have anything to do with absolving all women - if that's what you were referring to.

MRA is right in stating that God is above and beyond gender, just as He is above and beyond mundane things like time.   However, we are told to address Him as father, not mother.   He is male and in authority, and it is that model that is supposed to be lived out on earth between the genders.   And when men are told to sacrifice for that which they love as their own flesh (their wives) it is only in imitation of Christ, who, being God, deigned to sacrifice his own self for the benefit of sinful mankind.   In other words, He doesn't ask us to do anything he hasn't done Himself.   He endured the humiliation of the cross - for us, who were thoroughly unworthy.  We are all asked to do likewise.

Men's Rights Activist

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Men's Rights Activist wrote:  
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MRA, I was talking about homosexuality. The Christian church has a far more brutal history of condemning men who are guilty of that act then women.



Dead's dead


An excuse is an excuse.


Your interpretation is suffering from a perception disconnect, and an incomplete posting of previous quotes, possibly exacerbated by incomplete quotes by TB, since you are quoting me through her posts.  I clearly pointed out in a subsequent post (but preceding your comment) that I was quoting Biblical law's penality for homosexuality and adultry - both death.  Ergo, "dead's dead."  No excuses, merely a quote.

A lot of people are quick to condemn the harshness of the old testament, but such was the nature of the times.  I believe I read about a penalty under Babylonian or Summaric law from that time, where, if an architect built a house and it fell down, the architect was killed. Dead's dead and is also dead for homosexual, adulterer, or sloppy architect from that time. :?
Life, Liberty, & Pursuit of Happiness are fundamental rights for all (including males), & not contingent on gender feminist approval or denial. Consider my "Independence" from all tyrannical gender feminist ideology "Declared" - Here & Now!

powder-monkey

Quote:
Powder-monkey - the immaculate conception (an entirely catholic belief) does not have anything to do with absolving all women - if that's what you were
referring to.

Actually, that's the very point I was trying to make

Men's Rights Activist

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Powder-monkey - the immaculate conception (an entirely catholic belief) does not have anything to do with absolving all women - if that's what you were referring to.


The immaculate conception (a Catholic doctrine) has mistakenly been  closely associated with the Biblical assertion of the virgin birth of Jesus (born of a virgin), that Protestant churches hold, yet the two are not the same.

Maybe the title of this thread should have been, "Do Catholics (as opposed to Protestants) hold women in higher regard then men, because of their belief in the Immaculate Conception of Mary?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception
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The Immaculate Conception is a Catholic dogma that asserts that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was preserved by God from the stain of original sin at the time of her own conception. Specifically, the dogma says she was not afflicted by the lack of sanctifying grace that afflicts mankind, but was instead filled with grace by God, and furthermore lived a life completely free from sin. It is commonly confused with the doctrine of the incarnation and virgin birth, though the two deal with separate subjects. According to the dogma, Mary was conceived by normal biological means, but her soul was acted upon by God (kept "immaculate") at the time of her conception.

The Immaculate Conception was solemnly defined as a dogma by Pope Pius IX in his constitution Ineffabilis Deus, published December 8, 1854 (the Feast of the Immaculate Conception), and consecrated by Pope Pius XII in 1942.

The Feast of the Immaculate Conception of Mary had been established in 1476 by Pope Sixtus IV who stopped short of defining the doctrine as a dogma of the Catholic Faith, thus giving Catholics freedom to believe in this or not; this freedom had been reiterated by the Council of Trent. The existence of the feast was a strong indication of the Church´s belief in the Immaculate Conception, even before its 19th century definition as a dogma.

The Catholic Church believes the dogma is supported by scripture (e.g. her being greeted by Angel Gabriel as "full of Grace"), and by the writings of many of the Church Fathers, either directly or indirectly, and often calls Mary the Blessed Virgin ( Luke 1:48). Catholic theology maintains that since Jesus became incarnate of the Virgin Mary, she needed to be completely free of sin to bear the Son of God, and that Mary is "redeemed 'by the grace of Christ' but in a more perfect manner than other human beings" (Ott, Fund., Bk 3, Pt. 3, Ch. 2, §3.1.e).
Life, Liberty, & Pursuit of Happiness are fundamental rights for all (including males), & not contingent on gender feminist approval or denial. Consider my "Independence" from all tyrannical gender feminist ideology "Declared" - Here & Now!

The Gonzman

Quote from: "Dr Evil"
Gonzo - Do you not see any Womanfirsting in Christianity?


Very much so in Liberal, secular, heterodox Christianity
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the Shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am the MEANEST son-of-a-bitch in the valley.

dr e

Quote from: "Gonzokid"
Quote from: "Dr Evil"
Gonzo - Do you not see any Womanfirsting in Christianity?


Very much so in Liberal, secular, heterodox Christianity


What I am picking up from this thread is that most of you feel that theologically Christianity is egalitarian but has been ruined on a practical basis by feminism and the liberal women firsters.  Correct?  

It seems to me that the Catholics have taken some pretty strong stands against feminism and seem to be holding the line for a more traditional approach that honors men and places them in positions of leadership.   The other protestant denominations seem to have just caved in to the fems.
Contact dr e  Lifeboats for the ladies and children, icy waters for the men.  Women have rights and men have responsibilties.

stands2p

I'm sorry to have missed most of this discussion but I'd like to toss this in for your consideration:
Feminism seems to me to be a top to bottom rejection of everything Christianity or any other religion has to offer.  Religion is the idea that there is a higher purpose to life than what we see around us; that there is a reason to behave decently other than the hope that others will treat us decently in return.  Feminism is the romantic and materialist* idea that women have been enslaved by something they call the patriarchy and that they must tear down all of society's institutions to achieve dominance (not equality.)  

Organized religion, especially of Judeo-Christian derivation, tops the feminist list of institutions for destruction.  Feminists understand that religion is among the most powerful of societal institutions, even in this secular age.  Religion is unearthly revelation and accumulated wisdom about those revelations.  Even people who say they do not believe do so with a gravity they reserve for matters of life and death.  Those who scoff at religion expect to be saluted for their bravery, implying a deeply held belief in what they deny. Religion is important, more important than the stock exchange or the interstate highway system or public television or the internet and feminists know it.  

Christians and Jews get most of the feminists' attention not because they are especially harsh with regards to women but because they are closely intertwined with those Western economic and political developments that, having spawned feminism, are now identified by feminists as the enemy, the patriarchy.  Feminist are silent about the misogyny endemic to Islam for two reasons.  The first is that Islam is their co-antagonist in the fight to destroy Judeo-Christianity.  The second is the stoning and beheading of rebellious women, time tested deterrents to free-speech.  I will submit that the pantheistic, polytheistic, animist and pagan faiths practiced by a sizable majority of the world's population fall below the feminist radar largely because feminism is a western political and economic phenomenon.  The dysfunctional child seeks to kill its own parents, not its neighbor's.

I get great comfort from my faith.  I seek to lead my family with the authority vested in me by my Creator.  My wife would be appalled by the suggestion that she submits to me but she truly does in those things that really matter and to the extent that she sees God's hand in my decisions.  I am not besotted with pride but rather humbled by my responsibility as a husband and father.

Organized religion is a human construction and, as such, is as flawed and fragile as any machine.  LL Nash is credited with saying church is "a hospital for sinners, not a museum for saints."  When I walk into my church, I find much that is amiss but I also find great healing.  I do what I can to make things better and hope that, as I grow in my faith, I can do more to make my church closer to what it is meant to be.  I also take earthly comfort in knowing that churches are plentiful enough that I could find a new "hospital" if I had to part ways with my current spiritual home.

At the end of the day, feminism will fail just as socialism will fail.  Both are petty and comical attempts by weak and deluded people to steal what they claim has no value.  Peace be with you.

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanticism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism
The Lord works in strange ways; and with strange people.

Men's Rights Activist

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It seems to me that the Catholics have taken some pretty strong stands against feminism and seem to be holding the line for a more traditional approach that honors men and places them in positions of leadership. The other protestant denominations seem to have just caved in to the fems.


Some have, but theProtestant Pastor I quoted extensively has certainly taken a strong stand against feminism, and the Lutheran Pastor I gave info to has also taken a strong stand against feminism.  Rather than buy into some of the stuff being pushed under feminsim the later Pastor told me, "Before I'll allow that in my church I'll close the doors and pump gas for a living." :?

I think educating them, could make a world of difference in some Pastors.
Life, Liberty, & Pursuit of Happiness are fundamental rights for all (including males), & not contingent on gender feminist approval or denial. Consider my "Independence" from all tyrannical gender feminist ideology "Declared" - Here & Now!

Men's Rights Activist

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Feminism is the romantic and materialist* idea that women have been enslaved by something they call the patriarchy and that they must tear down all of society's institutions to achieve dominance (not equality.)


I see it that way too.  Feminism is totalitarian in that it has no desire to share the stage with any males.  It has judged "Patriarchy" as responsible for all the worlds ills and is totally committed to its destruction.  Any man who gets in the way is also slated for destruction.  Under feminsim's agenda, only feminists are qualified to have leadership in the new femi-tyranny.
Life, Liberty, & Pursuit of Happiness are fundamental rights for all (including males), & not contingent on gender feminist approval or denial. Consider my "Independence" from all tyrannical gender feminist ideology "Declared" - Here & Now!

ghost

Eh... I dunno. It's close, but doesn't describe feminism exactly.
Proper tyrannies achieve their power by terror and suppressing dissent.
With feminism, suppressing dissent was never an issue as there is virtually none.
Feminism is probably the first voluntarily adopted tyranny.
Maybe that means it isn't even tyranny, if it's done with the love and consent of its "victims"?

Christiane

Quote from: "Dr Evil"
What I am picking up from this thread is that most of you feel that theologically Christianity is egalitarian but has been ruined on a practical basis by feminism and the liberal women firsters.  Correct?


Yes, speaking for myself.  But I still have the problem of generalization - defining Christianity today is problematic.   With that caveat, I believe absolutely that Christianity has been twisted by the feminist movement to suit their agenda.

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I get great comfort from my faith. I seek to lead my family with the authority vested in me by my Creator. My wife would be appalled by the suggestion that she submits to me but she truly does in those things that really matter and to the extent that she sees God's hand in my decisions. I am not besotted with pride but rather humbled by my responsibility as a husband and father.


Your wife is a fortunate woman, stands2p  - but I suspect she knows that.

Men's Rights Activist

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Eh... I dunno. It's close, but doesn't describe feminism exactly.
Proper tyrannies achieve their power by terror and suppressing dissent.
With feminism, suppressing dissent was never an issue as there is virtually none.
Feminism is probably the first voluntarily adopted tyranny.
Maybe that means it isn't even tyranny, if it's done with the love and consent of its "victims"?


Er, speak for yourself.  IMO, I think you are telling on yourself and your level of Men's Rights Activism.  I've often said that free speech is the biggest enemy of gender feminism and that they are very vigorous about trying to crush dissent.  As far as dissent never being an issue, perhaps you feel that way, because you've not been involved in it like numerous others of us have.  If I had a dime for every time an angry gender feminist has flipped us the bird, or shouted obscenities at us while we were exercising our free speech rights (criticizing atrocities committed under the gender feminist agenda), I could buy us both dinner.

http://tinyurl.com/7ku7r
http://tinyurl.com/e76g7
http://tinyurl.com/rfhj3
http://tinyurl.com/k5esl
http://tinyurl.com/pht5w
http://tinyurl.com/d3mj2





If anyone has not had their free speech rights assaulted by gender feminists or their ilk, then IMO, your just not doing enough Men's Rights Activism.
Life, Liberty, & Pursuit of Happiness are fundamental rights for all (including males), & not contingent on gender feminist approval or denial. Consider my "Independence" from all tyrannical gender feminist ideology "Declared" - Here & Now!

ghost

I was speaking about men as a group, not about myself.
NCFM doesn't represent men, it only represents itself and a tiny handful of others who agree with it

Feminism never had to fight a real opposition. Feminism's claims were never challenged in public debate. Literature that exposes feminist sexism is almost non-existent. There is Warren Farrell... and Christina Hoff Sommers... and Thomas Ellis... that's about. As opposed to thousands of hefty feminist tomes and endless newspaper and magazine publications.

The only semi-serious opposition feminism has is from religious conservatives, on the abortion issue. But they never challenge them on anti-male hatred.

Feminism never struggled to get in power. It slid into it on rollerblades while chewing a bubblegum.

typhonblue

Quote from: "ghost"
IFeminism never struggled to get in power. It slid into it on rollerblades while chewing a bubblegum.


Amazing that such a revolution in power managed to happen without a single shot being fired.

Could you imagine this happening with any other power shift?

The communist party waltzs into the Czar's palace and says "time for a change of pace, my man" and the Czar says "quite right, just need a few days to pack my bags."

ghost

Yup. That's what the point was, thanks typhonblue.

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