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Started by Amber, Oct 15, 2002, 08:10 PM

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Amber

he men's movement is a hate movement.  

What feminism is to men; the men's rights movement is to women.

Men's rights activists blame misandry for all their problems in the same way that feminists blame the patriarchy.

The only thing men's rights activists are good at is abusing women.  

And you can quote me on that.  :D

DavidByron

Once again Amber I would remind you that I am the one who has defended you and comprehended your posts better than anyone else here and you've still taken the attitude that you "can't be bothered".

*Sigh*.
Well I'll read it and critique it but I doubt you will be ab;le to persue the discussion ... I'll probably just be repeating the arguments you ran away from so many times before.
size=9]I am the victim of unregulated sarcasm[/size]

Amber

he men's movement is a hate movement.  

What feminism is to men; the men's rights movement is to women.

Men's rights activists blame misandry for all their problems in the same way that feminists blame the patriarchy.

The only thing men's rights activists are good at is abusing women.  

And you can quote me on that.  :D

DavidByron

Oh this is very silly Amber. You make an elementary mistake here. Your entire argument is a strawman. You defend something which isn't attacked and dthen pretend it applies to the current war.

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The "If, then" statement during war-time changes to "If ___ man is to survive, then ___ he must eradicate all threats to his life."


If all you mean is that people can defend themselves then fine, although that's not what those words actually mean quite.  But an individual defending themselves is not remotely like a government initiating an invasion and occupation of another country and forcing its citizens to fight other individuals so as to spread the government's power.

In fact you are turning Objectivism on its head.

Please point out which American has his or her life directly threatened such that an invasion of Iraq is a solution? And if that were so then -- occording to you -- there would be a stream of volunteers to fight.  Of course there is none, because everyone knows that this is "all about oil" and no American cares to fight this war.

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When America was attacked on 9-11, that gave her full moral right to do whatever she had to to save *America*


That is of course, total bullshit.  American reaction was to invade a third world country over oil.  It had nothing whatsoever to do with defence.  In fact the action certainly made America LESS secure.  There is no right to attack and kill other people because you "feel" afraid.  You sound like a feminist.  Genuine self-defence means that you are being genuinely attacked --- not that you "feel" insecure, still less that you simply CLAIM to feel insecure.  This is exactly the horseshit that feminists have made law in family court with restraining orders.

Once again I observe that on your argument Hitler was fully justified in invading Poland.  Far more justified than America was in invading Afghanistan -- let alone Iraq.

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The 'ends' we want to achieve is eradicating all threats to our security. The 'means' we can use to do that are: whatever ones we have to. Whatever atrocity we commit, including killing innocents, is distinctly not America's fault


You are saying on an individual level that murder is ALWAYS a good thing if the murderer only claims that he or she felt a little insecure.  The facts don't matter. Murder is always good.  Do you see that I wonder?  You are also saying that the terrorist attacks on America were fully justified and good -- again far more so than any justification America has. Why? Because they felt like killing and that's always justified according to you.

It comes down simply to saying that VIOLENCE IS GOOD.


This is all so ridiculous Amber. You pretend to talk about self-defence but without any element of self-defence needing to be present.

Tell me do you think Saddam would be good if he detonated a nuclear bomb in America --- in self defence?  HE has a GENUINE case of self-defence of course.

Your whole essay is purile nonsense based on this dumbed-down straw man that anything America does is "self-defence" when the whole freakin' point is that America is the agressor.  Now perhaps you would care to address the real issue for a few seconds? How is America justified in its unprovoked acts of agression against foreign states?
size=9]I am the victim of unregulated sarcasm[/size]

DavidByron

Why don't you try to give a definition of self-defence whereby you are not saying that Hitler was using "self-defence" in WW2, but are saying America was using self-defence against Afghanistan, Iraq, Serbia, Panama, Nicaragua, Vietnam etc etc etc.

America is in breach of international law and Bush is a war criminal.  America, not Iraq or Afghanistan, is the agressor.  America is a military power that agressively attacks other countries.  It is the most military agressive power in a century.

When has Iraq __EVER__ attacked the US?
When has Afghanistan __EVER__ attacked the US?
When has Serbia __EVER__ attacked the US?

Or ever in threatened to?

Your entire so-called argument is to pretend that America is the poor little country being attacked instead of the global bully and terrorist state that it has been for the last 200 years.
size=9]I am the victim of unregulated sarcasm[/size]

DavidByron

How is it that you come to support violence to eliminate people's freedoms and claim you are an Objectivist?  If you were a character in "Atlas Shrugged" you'd be pointing out how John Galt was a "threat to the security" of America and therefore ought to be shot or locked away "in self defence".
size=9]I am the victim of unregulated sarcasm[/size]

Stefan

Indeed,it's interesting to compare Amber's article with the feminist ideology.There was one feminist woman ( I think it was Catharine McKinnon) who said that  a woman is raped when she *feels* violated.
 
 
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America's goal, right now, is to win the war.


  What ? The war has already started and nobody told me anything ?

Amber

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How is it that you come to support violence to eliminate people's freedoms and claim you are an Objectivist?



It is a common Objectivist position, David.  You read my article so you saw the Rand quote at the end.  ("A man with self esteem will kill any many or army that stands in his way who threatens his life".)  

http://www.aynrand.org/medialink/itistimetodeclarewar.shtml

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A proper war is one fought with the most effective weapons we possess (Rumsfeld reportedly refuses, correctly, to rule out nuclear weapons). And it is one fought in the manner most beneficial to the American cause, regardless of the suffering and death this will bring to countless innocents caught in the line of fire. Only this approach ensures that the war will be won as quickly as possible, and with the fewest American casualties.
     
he men's movement is a hate movement.  

What feminism is to men; the men's rights movement is to women.

Men's rights activists blame misandry for all their problems in the same way that feminists blame the patriarchy.

The only thing men's rights activists are good at is abusing women.  

And you can quote me on that.  :D

Amber

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Indeed,it's interesting to compare Amber's article with the feminist ideology.There was one feminist woman ( I think it was Catharine McKinnon) who said that a woman is raped when she *feels* violated.





Ya right.  No "evidence" of a threat to the US?  Please.  Dating all the way back to car bombs in the WTC, blowing up our ships, attacking US embassies, and who could forget - blowing up two of our most proud buildings, killing 3000 people on US soil  ... oh ya, I forgot, what 'evidence' is there of a certain insane, primitive culture seeking our destruction.  

Tell me you think that sniper is just some US citizen gone crazy - and not an Al Queda member, whom the government is keeping under wraps to quelch hysteria.
he men's movement is a hate movement.  

What feminism is to men; the men's rights movement is to women.

Men's rights activists blame misandry for all their problems in the same way that feminists blame the patriarchy.

The only thing men's rights activists are good at is abusing women.  

And you can quote me on that.  :D

Amber

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When has Iraq __EVER__ attacked the US?




Terrorism is NOT the product of private citizens who get together and decide to start an entire jihad against the western world.  Terrorism is a *state sponsored* production.  GOVERNMENTS pump out terrorists.
he men's movement is a hate movement.  

What feminism is to men; the men's rights movement is to women.

Men's rights activists blame misandry for all their problems in the same way that feminists blame the patriarchy.

The only thing men's rights activists are good at is abusing women.  

And you can quote me on that.  :D

DavidByron

I repeat: when has any country ever attacked or threatened to attack the US Amber?  Please address the issue.  Why is the US justified in making wars of aggression?  Why is the US justified in being the global terrorist?

Not even Bush has tried to say that Iraq or Afghanistan was responsible for any act of terrorism on US soil.

Your entire "argument" is identical to the feminist "argument": LIES LIES AND MORE LIES. You pretend you are the VICTIM. But it doesn't really work does it? No one believes America - the only country to use nukes against civilians - the country that has used more chemical and biological weapons than any other, the country that regularly bombs third world countries ... no one beleives you when you say you're just a little VICTIM.

I would have thought on any othger topic you'd be too embarassed to use such an obvious feminist tactic, but apparently when it comes to foreign policy you're as brainwashed as the next yank.
size=9]I am the victim of unregulated sarcasm[/size]

Stefan

You list terrorist attacks of al-Quaida ...this organization is spread all over the world,I really doubt that a war against Irak will destroy al-Quaida.
   And the sniper? Nobody knows who he is. Remember the antrax mails ...they were thought to be sent by an arab terrorist,and finnally they discovered that it was an american producing them.

DavidByron

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What ? The war has already started and nobody told me anything ?


The US has been bombing Iraq at greatly increased rates for the last few months.  Yes, the war has already started and, yes, no one told you anything.
size=9]I am the victim of unregulated sarcasm[/size]

Amber

If I were using feminist tactics ... I would be boo hooing the the United nations, claiming my oppressed status, and demanding they fund and/or engage in a war against terrorist nations.  But I am not.  I am fully advocating US sovereignty to solve the problem.  I think women should do the same ... I love guns.
he men's movement is a hate movement.  

What feminism is to men; the men's rights movement is to women.

Men's rights activists blame misandry for all their problems in the same way that feminists blame the patriarchy.

The only thing men's rights activists are good at is abusing women.  

And you can quote me on that.  :D

DavidByron

You ARE trying to claim you have an oppressed status.  And you do it for the exact same reason that feminists do.
size=9]I am the victim of unregulated sarcasm[/size]

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