Surprised this hasn't come up before

Started by stands2p, Mar 15, 2007, 10:39 AM

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stands2p

Mar 15, 2007, 10:39 AM Last Edit: Mar 15, 2007, 12:36 PM by stands2p
A guy told a woman he was sorry for something that happened between them years ago when he was drunk.  The woman is now pressing charges for rape.

12 step programs have shown some success in helping people with addictions to drugs and alcohol.  The steps are pretty straighforward:
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol--that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

Notice step nine, making amends to people you've harmed.  The fellow in this story

http://www.cnn.com/2007/LAW/03/15/12step.apology.ap/index.html


tried to make amends and is on his way to jail as a result.  I have no idea what happened between this man and woman but you'd think this guy would have realized that he was sticking his head in a cannon.  You'd think his sponsor (AA person assigned to help a newbie through early recovery) would have told him to find a way to approach this transgression in a way that wouldn't destroy his life.

Many if not most people with serious addiction problems have committed crimes that could land them in jail.  If they are not out mugging old ladies and breaking into houses it is only because they are keeping up appearances in a 9-5 job as they rob the till.  I like justice as much as the next guy but I know there is a difference between justice and law.  I would think AA would have dealt with at least one lawyer who refused to send himself to jail in order to get sobered up.

The Lord works in strange ways; and with strange people.

scarbo

I should hope that his sponsor would NOT instruct him "to find a way to approach this transgression in a way that wouldn't destroy his life."

Don't you think a guy who raped deserves justice, even if he was an alcoholic?

Is the only goal of us as people to avoid punishment, even when we know we did something wrong? Even better if no one knows, then, *whew!*, we got away with it! It almost sounds like you're allowing the guy to use alcohol as an excuse, which is something they tell people associated with alcoholics NOT to do, lest they enable them.

Isn't integrity doing the right thing, even when it's hard?

"Making amends" -- doesn't that mean owning up to it AND paying the price?

I'm sorry the guy has to go to jail, but he committed a crime. Sounds like the prosecutors are giving him a break with just a two-year recommended sentence.

MAUS



1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol--that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.




I find this premise absurd, and in fact a bit blasphemous.

It is sort of like when people chant "the Lord's Prayer" (and let's face it it is a key of A flat monotone chant just like any eastern mantra). When they come to the line "Thy will be done" and say it in an imperative tone it just makes me cringe. Talk about a point being missed.

So in the 12 step model, here you are "invoking" a higher power. :rolle:

There is no such thing as "powerless".

I remember attending "Adult children of alcoholics" some years ago. I was gratefull for some of the insights I got from other participants, but I was not impressed by the 12 step metodology.

I simply let go of the notion that I was a case that needed to be worked on and accepted myself as a fundamentally decent human being.

Once I had done the "moral inventory"I no longer caved in to manipulators who play with people's neurosis.

As for making amends, there is nobody, up to and including God, who I owe any appology to.

stands2p

Very good points Scarbo, I mostly agree with you.  The only point that sticks with me is that a person has rights against self-incrimination.  We hear everyday about violent criminals who got off scot-free because they spilled their guts when they were arrested even though they had been read their rights.  I believe a priest in a confessional is exempt from revealing knowledge of a crime and of course an attorney is protected.

It sounds like this guy has both oars in the water and truly wants to accept responsibility for his actions.  It might be that someone did advise him against this but he insisted.  If so good for him.  His choice is none of my business.

But there are people with addiction problems who might not have as much on the ball as this guy.  Some of them are court ordered to rehab.  I'm picturing a guy who is sent to rehab for DUI and in talking about the things he has done while drinking, he mentions making a pass at a cocktail waitress-- he is guilty of bad manners at worst.  He is manipulated into confessing to a "sex-crime" by a feminist  AA sponsor. The waitress is only too happy to press charges and he winds up on a sex offenders list, loses custody of his kids etc.

That may sound like an elaborate scenario but I've had some exposure to the culture of rehab and it doesn't seem farfetched to me.  

I don't think addicts should get a pass for their actions, not for a second.  But I also don't think AA should be in the business of feeding the local chapter of sister against rape or closing cases for the prosecutors office.  
The Lord works in strange ways; and with strange people.

Virtue

Quote
We admitted we were powerless
Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to

This is Why AA fails
This is why NA fails
This is Why Feminism fails
This line of thinking always leads to failure

YOU are the only person who can effect changes in your life.
Imagine waking up tomorrow to find
that unbelievably rape is now legal.

You would be freaking out, telling everyone you ran into this is crazy- something needs to be done... now!!! And then every man you told this to just very smugly and condescendingly says...

"Hey... not all men are 'like that.'"

devia

<<<This is Why AA fails
This is why NA fails>>>

But they don't fail. In fact they have the highest recovery rates of any program.


CaptDMO


Quote
We admitted we were powerless
Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to

This is Why AA fails
This is why NA fails
This is Why Feminism fails
This line of thinking always leads to failure

YOU are the only person who can effect changes in your life.

Funny...that's what A LOT of retreaded drunks/druggies/tubbos/bonebags/Kleptos/nymphos/pedos/bullies said.

There ARE exceptions to the rule of course. Frankly, every person is different.
It's just that for ANY kind of successful behavior modification program.
Temporary transferance of ones anti-social crutch, with some kind of
positively reinforced and supported list of "new rules"(sic), helps to take the edge
off of reworking everything one has ever known.

Personally, I just can't see confessing to a punishable crime when the actions of the
confessor are  unknown. Stories like this one can only reiterate that the concept
of "except when to do so would injure them or others". Sometimes folks seem to
forget that "or others" includes includes themselves.

I can't wait for the (late night)12 steps gone wild show following the "new studies"
being touted in the TV series on addiction.



scarbo


Sometimes folks seem to forget that "or others" includes includes themselves.


I disagree. The word "others" in the context of the 12-step list clearly means people other than the person taking the steps. It does NOT include that individual. It's written that way so that you consider if your making amends makes things worse instead of better, creates more harm, etc.

taylortailwinds

#8
Mar 15, 2007, 07:45 PM Last Edit: Jul 29, 2015, 01:48 PM by taylortailwinds
...
"[...] for hardly any one is so careless as to allow his worst animals to breed." -- Charles Darwin<br />""... religion [...] teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. [It also] teaches the dangerous nonsense that death is not the end." -- Richard Dawkins

Mr. X


Steps 1 ~12: Get over it!  :laughing6:

gross, I didn't know 12-steps programs were faith based... why does religion always have to come up with a retardedly excessive number of steps/rules... a nice, short, easy to understand, and concise list of 2 or 3 items should be enough in any given situation.

I would summarize the 12 steps like this:

1) Admit to yourself that you have a problem, and muster up the resolve to stop yourself, for the betterment of your own life and those you care about.
2) Take time to evaluate yourself deeply and honestly, even going so far as to talk and apologize to others in your personal sphere.
3) Get over it and move on with your life!


Errr I think its a bit different when you're actually so hooked on something you commit crimes or hurt others and yourself to do it. I had a friend who was in AA. Its not a simple thing. The reason the rules exists is to give the person discipline and rigidity and structure to their lives. That is why some people turn to religion. Its not that they want to believe in some God as much as the religion gives their lives structure, control etc. Hate to pull the "well you're young" bit but people do slip and fall. You say get over it and move on but some people don't know what's beyond to move on to. Soend your life with 40 years of despair and hopelessness with no visible goal or way out and see if you can "move on". People get lost and its not that easy to find your way back.
Feminists - "Verbally beating men like dumb animals or ignoring them is all we know and its not working."

taylortailwinds

#10
Mar 15, 2007, 08:59 PM Last Edit: Jul 29, 2015, 12:46 PM by taylortailwinds
...
"[...] for hardly any one is so careless as to allow his worst animals to breed." -- Charles Darwin<br />""... religion [...] teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. [It also] teaches the dangerous nonsense that death is not the end." -- Richard Dawkins

Mr. X

All I can say is wait till you get there.
Feminists - "Verbally beating men like dumb animals or ignoring them is all we know and its not working."

taylortailwinds

#12
Mar 15, 2007, 09:12 PM Last Edit: Jul 29, 2015, 01:47 PM by taylortailwinds
...
"[...] for hardly any one is so careless as to allow his worst animals to breed." -- Charles Darwin<br />""... religion [...] teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. [It also] teaches the dangerous nonsense that death is not the end." -- Richard Dawkins

Mr. X

Quote
I don't plan on changing who I am... even if I wanted to, such a thing is impossible (barring some mental trauma causing me to forget everything).

If that were the case would you then be the same as you were when you were 10 years old? People do change, even down to their core. If what you say is true there would be no such thing as redemption, rehabilitation or changing to be a better person.
Feminists - "Verbally beating men like dumb animals or ignoring them is all we know and its not working."

The Gonzman

Who ever said an addict isn't the same person?

I kicked my drug habit while I was still a fundamentalist atheist, and to this day, I am still a drug addict, not matter how clean I have been for the past twenty years.

Anyone who tries to tell you that you are cured - or can be - is trying to sell you something.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the Shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am the MEANEST son-of-a-bitch in the valley.

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