Message for Mr Bad...

[Kate]

Hi to everyone here at the SYG forums. My name is Kate, and I'm a 27 yr-old British woman living in Japan. I'm here after an invitation from Mr Bad on one of the threads at Hugo Schwyzer's blog:
Mr Bad: "I will refrain from thread drift here because for me and other MRAs it get us banned. If Hugo wants to start a thread about masculinity - healthy or otherwise - I'll be glad to discuss the topic with you. Otherwise you may come to Stand Your Ground, join our group and discuss it with us freely, with no restrictions or censorship other than abiding by our rules, which are quite reasonable."

OK, well I've read the rules and they're reasonable...I suspect that I am coming from a different political viewpoint than some of the posters here, so it should be interesting.
With that said, Mr Bad, let's have at it. I can repost my original questions or you can suggest another way to debate. I guess what I'm having trouble with is the idea that feminism's focus 'not harming girls and women' is somehow actively causing harms to boys and men.* I'm interested, too, in your definition of healthy/unhealthy masculinity.

*I don't mean to misrepresent your position BTW.  That's how I read your criticism at Hugo's. I hope you'll be able to clarify here.

[dr e]

Hi Kate - Glad you have found us.  Welcome.  I look forward to hearing your discussions with Mr Bad.

[MAUS]

Hello Kate...Hugo and I were on Glenn Sacks radio show.....Hugo does not like me much I'm afraid....I am one of those evil masculinists who is a brother at MGTOW.

But at MGTOW I am considered a bit of an odd duck, because I take the position that it really doesn't matter if you are a flaming drag queen or a wrestler in the WWF, you are the man you are and you are NOT a case that needs to be worked on.

My position to anyone who frequents Hugo's forum....I have met several men who some women found as charming and charismatic as Hugo...all of those men had this one thing in common...they were pimps. Master manipulators who get what they want by telling women what they want to hear.

Many women who call themselves "feminists" really do not want a man at all...they want a woman with a penis...it's a sort of sexual fantasy that arises from unresolved lesbian issues.....beware of the men who will provide you with that.....if they are NOT crass opportunists...they will not fail to disappoint you.

Welcome to this forum of free speach where drawing your toe one millimeter from a doctrinaire hard line will not get you censored.

[Kate]

Hi Dr E, and MAUS.

Regarding odd ducks, I am of the opinion that they are often the most interesting people to talk to...odd duck often = independent thinker.
I'm not familiar with MGTOW. I had a look at the website briefly - is it a separatist mens' movement?

"a woman with a penis" lol, this reminds me of a book by Will Self, "Cock & Bull Story" - a woman grows a penis and a man grows a vagina, kind of a black comedy.

As far unresolved lesbian issues go, I've met a few women like that myself (I'm bisexual)!

[MAUS]

Hi Dr E, and MAUS.

Regarding odd ducks, I am of the opinion that they are often the most interesting people to talk to...odd duck often = independent thinker.
I'm not familiar with MGTOW. I had a look at the website briefly - is it a separatist mens' movement?

"a woman with a penis" lol, this reminds me of a book by Will Self, "Cock & Bull Story" - a woman grows a penis and a man grows a vagina, kind of a black comedy.

As far unresolved lesbian issues go, I've met a few women like that myself (I'm bisexual)!

The MGTOW mainsite is a mostly automated site designed to absorb and deflect flack....it is actually the hub of a world wide network, some of which is by invitation only.

The "patriarchy" is a rhetorical and ideological strawman created by feminist jargon....MGTOW is what resulted from a veritable army of fairly nice guys who really don't have the key to the city in their trousers interms of actual power, getting steamrollered by feminism and a crass auxilliary of opportunistic manginas.

Now feminism actually has adversaries.

Just by the way, I am a graduate of Canada's foremost feminist university and I audited the entire womyn's studies undergraduate program...so I am really not a good candidate for "sensitivity training"....my animosity would never be that easily uprooted.

Prior to that I had three live in relationships with vanguard feminists, including a bisexual...hey....love is a many splendored thing ...isn't it.

My first encounter with feminism was in 1963...I was attending a special school experiment for eggheads. I committed the faux pas of asking my French teacher what the term was in French for "spinster"....she gave me a whole chapter on Gestetner paper of a manuscript that one of her collegues at the Sorbonne had written to translate as homework. I recognized it years later as an excerpt from Simone de Beauvoir's "La Deusieme Sexe"..she and Jean Paul Sartre had human misery down to a science.

[The Gonzman]

Fine.

Here is where I stand vis-a-vis what my movement means to me.

I will be happy to debate "feminism" when it is as seriously and in-depth defined by a feminist, beyond trite catchphrases, shallow "dictionary definitions," and weasel words.

I have the courage of my beliefs and convictions to stake out ground and say "Here stand I."

And I note that - how many years now? - Typhonblue's challenge in the Arena is yet unmet as well.

[Kate]

Hi, Gonzokid. Are you 'The Gonzman' who posts at Hugo's?

[Sociopathic Revelation]

Don't know if you recognize me.  I would post on occasion at Hugo's site, and call out his blatant double standards he had for women and men---I'll give him one thing, he openly admitted he held men at a higher standard than men, and (not so indirectly) let women off the hook for the same exact behavior.  I think he was afraid I was going to become another Mr. Bad there when I started taking him and other feminists to task.  Only one of my scathing posts was zapped, but I'm not terribly surprised he clamped down on anyone that he perceived as MRA friendly.

That's odd; I thought he liked being the cynosure. 

Hugo is fairly transparent.  MAUS' comparison to pimps is quite accurate; a couple of times I described his method as an "inverted form of chivalry" and that by courting favor with women, he's quite the owner of what I and others have dubbed "the good guy badge."  Even more curious, is that much of what he posits really doesn't amount to a hill of beans when being a self-anointed savior of women, while taking not much action, he yields a sizable mound of lipservice to make himself look very well.

There's one thing I actually have in common with gender feminists for once---we both view him as a poseur. 

[Kate]

Greetings, Sociopathic Revolution -sorry, I wasn't familiar with you from Hugo's blog, though i just had a look and by coincidence this was from a post of yours that I found:

"I believe you can be both for equality and be a MRA and a feminist in the original definition." - Mark

You nailed it, Mark. Right there. "

-not sure if this is still your position, but it's a coincidence that it relates to my own line of questioning about these things. Its my hope that there's still the possibility of rational discussion about the matter. (Hopelessly optimistic???) I can see that individual MRAs and individual feminists have pretty different definitions of what constitutes Feminism or the Men's Rights Movement, but I want to make up my own mind on the matter. I'm with Sherlock on this one:

'It is an old maxim of mine that when you have excluded the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.'

I'm not going to get into criticisms or defenses of Hugo - I'm sure he's quite capable of defending himself. I came here primarily because Mr Bad felt he was somewhat fettered in his arguments there and I'm interested in unfettered arguments, particularly ones which challenge my own beliefs.

[Kate]

re: MAUS -sure sounds like you've had some interesting life experiences. And, as far as I know, there IS no word for 'spinster' in French!?

[Sociopathic Revelation]

Greetings, Sociopathic Revolution -sorry, I wasn't familiar with you from Hugo's blog, though i just had a look and by coincidence this was from a post of yours that I found:

"I believe you can be both for equality and be a MRA and a feminist in the original definition." - Mark

You nailed it, Mark. Right there. "

-not sure if this is still your position, but it's a coincidence that it relates to my own line of questioning about these things. Its my hope that there's still the possibility of rational discussion about the matter. (Hopelessly optimistic???) I can see that individual MRAs and individual feminists have pretty different definitions of what constitutes Feminism or the Men's Rights Movement, but I want to make up my own mind on the matter. I'm with Sherlock on this one:

'It is an old maxim of mine that when you have excluded the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.'

I'm not going to get into criticisms or defenses of Hugo - I'm sure he's quite capable of defending himself. I came here primarily because Mr Bad felt he was somewhat fettered in his arguments there and I'm interested in unfettered arguments, particularly ones which challenge my own beliefs.

I'm not Mark, BTW.

I've always challenged feminism because it's major semantics even lends itself to being female-centric.  I'm certain you believe otherwise, that's part of my personal platform.  Perhaps some time I can be more detailed---I'm not as familiar with this particular board as I'd like to be, and I'm politely waiting for Mr. Bad here, too.

If am a MRA, is more by default, or having to resort into a sub camp of it, I suppose.

I'm sure Mr. Bad has a myriad of criticisms towards Hugo's brand of feminism, which I've read before and I've been quite impressed with.  I grew tired of his blog, to be honest; for a time Hugo seemed more generous in letting debate rumble throughout.  Now anything he deems as "anti-feminist bromides" are either restricted or clipped.  It's his blog.  Let him do what he wants.  Open debate isn't paramount, civil or otherwise.  But that's painfully obvious now.

[Kate]

Sorry, Sociopathic Revolution, didn't mean to imply that you WERE Mark...

"I've always challenged feminism because it's major semantics even lends itself to being female-centric.  I'm certain you believe otherwise, that's part of my personal platform."

-If by 'you', you mean me, (as opposed to a general 'you'), then I don't, actually, believe otherwise. I'd agree with you; IMO feminism IS female-centric. My questions are more to do with why and how MRAs feel this is actively causing harm to men and boys, and why (presumably) they think the Men's Rights Movement isn't going to be harmful to girls and women. I'll look forward to hearing your thoughts on the matter, too.

[dr e]

Is it good that so many seek Bad? 

If you use the dictionary definition of feminist I would guess that most people who post here would be happy to be called a feminist.  I know I would be fine with that.  This is actually the radical feminist's camouflage and most people's perception of the traditional desire of "feminists" for "equal rights" for women gives them cover for their bigotry. 

I have often said that MRA's would be much better off calling themselves "humanists" since they are truly interested in fairness for all people, not just men and boys.  Feminism has been damaging to boys and men by focusing only on the needs and wants of girls and women while disregarding the needs of boys and men.  It has been able to do this due to the "onboard" chivalry of most men.  And so it goes.

[dr e]

I went ahead and started a thread in the main forum about this.  Bad will catch up.   It's a good topic.

[Mr. Bad]

So sorry to be AWOL Kate, et al. - I didn't realize you'd taken me up on my offer, and indeed, you're the first to do so.

Welcome!  I'll try to catch up as best I can.  I'm glad to debate, but as I mentioned over at Hugo's, I envisioned this as an exercise where many might discuss issues, not necessarily a one-on-one; for that, you'd be better served by the more eloquent and able among us, e.g., Gonz or typhonblue.  I'm not nearly as good at this sort of thing as they are.

Watch for a post from me re. "healthy masculinity."

Again, welcome Kate!