Healthy Masculinity

[bluedye]

"On the topic of gender, it appear scientists are now leaning towards the theory that a small, mostly undocumented part of the brain is responsible for personal gender. (Personal as in not what gender the doctors declared you, but what you yourself feel you are). This part of the brain determines whether the brain itself develops into a "structurally male or female brain", with no regards to chromosomal gender. There's been some fascinating results, but it's still mostly a theory. I'll have to try find a link if anyone's interested. Far more plausible than many theories I've heard on the subject, but still a developing area."

Yes, please find the link.   

"However stoicism and talkativeness are individual traits too, and it's damaging for a talkative person to try remain silent in order to fit a stereotype; certainly whinging isn't a positive attribute but some people tend to bottle it up with eventually detrimental results."

You know what, though... "remaining silent" may not make sense to you, but it doesn't mean the people that "remain silent" are wrong.  I've heard many people use the female trait of "talking through their problems" & hurl it at men to make men feel "broken" for not speaking about their feelings.  What works for women doesn't always work for men & vice versa.  Men try to solve their problems.  If "talking" about them isn't part of the solution, men don't want any part of it.  This is yet another example of how men & women are different & it's not "society" making this happen.  In fact, society keeps trying to stomp this trait out of men, but it hasn't worked yet.   It's a perfect example of how we're just "wired" differently.

[dr e]

I think people here give feminists way way WAY too much credit.

I don't think they are that complicated. They want all the benefits of "equality" with all the benefits of "chivalry" at the same time.

Take the most hard core feminist out there. Then have Denzel Washington or Leo DiCaprio or Russell Crowe or George Clooney rub on them and it's game over. They'll pull their panties off just as fast as any other groupie starstruck by the money, the fame, the good looks and the power.

A feminist at her core is just another chick, and frankly, I think chicks aren't all that complicated.

They want

1) Money
2) Good looks
3) Fame/Power
4) Their friends jealous that they can get 1-3

But everyone knows when a woman crosses the age of 35-40, the odds of her ever getting any of the above decline drastically. I mean we are talking falling through the basement here.

The typical chick trick is to get everyone talking and mulling and in deep thought to blow a smokescreen over the fact that what they really want isn't all that hard. They want your cash so they don't have to work. They want your good looks because they want the best genetics for those kids you are going to pay for. They want you to have fame/power because socially, a woman is held in esteem by the male she secures and subsequently the success of his career. And finally, since chicks can't really stand other chicks that much, they want to rub shit in each others faces about what they got that their "friends" can't get.

I don't want to be rude, but the feminist definition of "masculinity" means they get 1-4 or some combo of it without having to look like a whore about it all.

Here's my definition -

Get as much sex as you can from them as safe as you can, don't let them get their claws into your wallet or your gonads and just wait them out, because after 40, they have lost most of their social power in getting any of the things that they want.

Chicks talk about all kinds of things but those words are hollow to me. What do they do? They ask you what you do for a living about half a second after you meet them. That's all they care about. That's why they love to get MRAs into this quagmire of debate, because they don't want to look like whores who only care about how much money men have ( no newsflash, deep down, it just comes back to how much money you have)

Chicks want you to argue with them, because it validates them. Because chicks love attention. They love it almost as much as they love your money. ( I said almost...) They don't actually listen to a word you say, they just bask in the glow of said attention.

Feminists don't care about "masculinity", its just some smoke grenades they throw while they figure out how to get at your wallet without having to feel guilty about it.

I don't even bother arguing with chicks anymore. There's no point. I don't feel the need to validate them or give them the attention they crave. Trust me, anyone who walks on this board looking for an "open dialogue with MRAs" and calls themselves a feminist just wants attention. She won't actually listen to a word you say.

You don't need to argue with them, wait for them to cross 40 years of age and that will say all that really needs to be said in the end.

JBPH

Jack - Generalizing in a negative manner about men or women is against the rules here.  You might want to preface these sorts of judgments with a qualifier like "The women I have known" or "From my experience" etc. 

[The Biscuit Queen]

Not everyone is bottling it up when they do not say anything. I of course would explode if I had to stop talking, but my husband Dave would rather not talk about some things. He just works through them and puts them behind him.

And yes, I know it worked for him, and no he is not a seething pool of repressed unspoken trauma. He just really does not need to verbalize to work things out.

Here is my theory, and I am sticking to it. Men can think without talking. Women cannot think unless it comes out their mouths. Only once it is spoken can they start to think about it, usually out loud.

That is why when Dave is gone I talk to myself all the time. 

And yes I am aware somewhere out there is a woman who can think silently, so it is most women, not all .

[The Gonzman]

What pisses me off about feminists is that they expect to act like a bunch of male-bashing, man-hating cunts and still expect men to want them.

Fuck that shit.

[MAUS]

What pisses me off about feminists is that they expect to act like a bunch of male-bashing, man-hating cunts and still expect men to want them.

Fuck that shit.

Gonzo, I now know that you are a man after my own heart. When academic scholarship has gone to such lengths to pervert the truth and commit the travesty of cloaking biggotry inthe cap and gown of scholarship and speak there sexist "political lesbianism"(go ahead...GOOGLE that term and be enlightened)...in academic high speach...the only appropriate response is to flatly tell them off in ordinary sailor talk and refuse thereafter to take them as seriously as they take themselves.

In you PM you will find an invitation to join the Stepford Men's Club....tell themthat MAUS sent you....I do not need to welcome you to Men Going Their Own Way....you have already done that...freely and of your own will.

[shiva]

@ bluedye:

Yes, please find the link.

I couldn't find the original article. Sorry, my bad for referring to it without backup. It was old though, and while searching for it I found more recent information. If you search for "male female dichotomy" or with similar keywords you're practically guaranteed to find some interesting scientific articles. I got sidetracked. 

You know what, though... "remaining silent" may not make sense to you, but it doesn't mean the people that "remain silent" are wrong.

It does make sense to me. I've always hated talking about my personal problems, and people think that means I'm fucked up. I didn't say people who remain silent are wrong at all, you've misread me there. But the theory that healthy masculinity includes stoicism is flawed.

One of my closest male friends is very talkative, and I respect that it's a trait of his as an individual. He has every right to voice his thoughts without being condemned as sissy or unmasculine, and that's the type of man I had in mind when saying that if the individual prefers to talk then remaining silent isn't necessarily a healthy ingredient of his personal masculinity. Verbal males may not be the majority but as always, things should be taken on an individual by individual basis.

[bluedye]

"But the theory that healthy masculinity includes stoicism is flawed."

No, it's really not.  Men are told to share their feelings more.  That is an attempt to get men to act more like women.  If men don't want to share their feelings, it should be done right there.  Part of healthy masculinity includes letting men remain silent if they choose to.

If there were theories that told women to stop talking as much as they do & keep more feelings inside, I doubt many people would consider that practice "healthy" femininity.

It's social engineering & it doesn't work.

"One of my closest male friends is very talkative, and I respect that it's a trait of his as an individual. He has every right to voice his thoughts without being condemned as sissy or unmasculine, and that's the type of man I had in mind when saying that if the individual prefers to talk then remaining silent isn't necessarily a healthy ingredient of his personal masculinity. Verbal males may not be the majority but as always, things should be taken on an individual by individual basis."

More anecdotal evidence.   The thing is... What you are describing is more of a healthy personal tendency than what falls under the healthy masculinity blanket. 

Here's the definition of masculine:

"masculine: 1 a : MALE b : having qualities appropriate to or usually associated with a man."

Talking a lot & sharing feelings are not usually associated with men, so calling it part of "healthy masculinity" is a stretch.

[brian44]

Hello Bluedye

I think people should just be allowed to live out their genetic predispositions. A lot of men are shortening their lives because they are bottling up their emotions. On the other hand it's bad when you see men over emoting to impress feminists or partners. Lets all just be ourselves...

[The Biscuit Queen]

I think men tend to talk only to those who they are very close to. I would guess that is usually a spouse or a life long best friend. I would also guess most men only have one or two friends with whom they are that close. Where women will tend to talk with relatively new friends about deeply personal things, I do not think most men do.

Now this does have disadvantages, such as here when we are trying to get these men's stories out. I have seen men in the father's rights movement with the need to tell that story, and they will tell it to other fathers who have been through the same thing. Some of the stories I have heard from fathers when I was protesting are absolutely heartbreaking. The sad thing was how appreciative those men were that I was willing to listen to them. They had lost not only their children, but the woman who was their confidant-they effectively lost their support network in the process.

Women respond to personal stories, and in order for women to comprehend what men are going through, we will need some men who are willing to speak up and talk about painful things. This wil be hard for many, who are just not made to spill their pain to strangers.

I have seen many men here who do just that, men  who I think other wise would not be talking about it. I think having male safe spaces like this is vital to many men who simply cannot find male safe spaces in the real world.
Places they will not be told to stop whining and take it like a real man, or it is probably his fault to begin with.

[bluedye]

The point I was trying to make was that sharing feelings is not something men tend to do.  If they do it, that's fine.  ...If they don't, that's also fine.

Speaking about feelings is not something that men tend to do.  ...So placing that in the "masculine" category is not right.

I think it's perfectly fine for women to wear their hair short, but it's not something they tend to do.  Long hair is usually associated with femininity.  ...You'd never hear: "Sally wanted to look more feminine, so she chopped off her long hair."

If there are no activities that can be classified as "masculine" or "feminine" the words completely lose their meanings.

That's all I'm saying.

[shiva]

@ bluedye:

Part of healthy masculinity includes letting men remain silent if they choose to.

Yes, I'm not saying that people should be forced to talk about their feelings. But having stoicism as a prerequisite, a must-have ingredient of 'healthy masculinity' is flawed, since everyone is different.

"But the theory that healthy masculinity includes stoicism is flawed."

No, it's really not.

I should have put 'must' before 'include'. I generalized a bit too much there and didn't get my meaning across. I meant that stoicism or talkativeness are personal traits. Saying that all men should remain silent in order to fit someone else's definition of 'healthy masculinity' is wrong. Saying that all men should discuss their deepest emotions in order to fit someone else's definition of 'healthy masculinity' is also wrong. 

Here's the definition of masculine:

"masculine: 1 a : MALE b : having qualities appropriate to or usually associated with a man."

And who decides what is or is not 'appropriate' there? I'm talking about more of an individual interpretation of healthy masculinity, which every man should define for himself. As everyone is an individual, they should find what's best for them and stick with it. It's not correct for anyone else to dictate to a man or a woman what constitutes 'healthy masculinity' or 'healthy femininity' especially when they're generalizing and promoting stereotypes. The majority and the minority are all individuals, despite whatever common ground they share. One man's healthy masculinity could be unhealthy for another man. 

My friend is a man, and I consider his verbal predilection a healthy part of his masculinity (not a feminine/feminized trait at all) because he is free to talk about his feelings, without being pressured to communicate or being pressured to keep a stiff upper lip. If he doesn't want to talk about anything, then he simply doesn't. He's talkative because that's a trait of the character he is. It works for him, and that's the important thing; if he subscribed to all the stereotypes of 'what a man should be', that would ultimately be a waste of the unique human being he is.

Speaking about feelings is not something that men tend to do.  ...So placing that in the "masculine" category is not right.

I don't see his talking about feelings as being a feminized trait either, and unhealthy to his masculinity, just because not all other men like to share that kind of information.

Just as a woman who doesn't like to share her feelings isn't necessarily exhibiting a masculine trait, or suffering with an unhealthy femininity, just because not all other women like to keep it to themselves.

Basically being able to talk freely when he wants to is a positive thing for him, and as a man (and an individual) communication is a healthy quality of his masculinity. It benefits him. As opposed to someone spilling their guts on topics they would much rather remained theirs alone, which would not be a beneficial situation. People's experiences or views of healthy masculinity will differ, and it's healthiest for each to decide what it is, not adopt another person's blueprint.

[bachelor tom]

What about non-verbal communication?  In my experience women are not so good at this, they need everything 'spelled-out'

Some of the best male bonding and support are done in side-by-side activities, where your buddy's tone of voice says it all - and what's wrong with silent companionship, it has it's place too?

[bluedye]

"Yes, I'm not saying that people should be forced to talk about their feelings. But having stoicism as a prerequisite, a must-have ingredient of 'healthy masculinity' is flawed, since everyone is different."

It's still a masculine trait, though... & if a man doesn't speak about his feelings, he can still be considered to be exercising healthy "masculinity."

"I meant that stoicism or talkativeness are personal traits. Saying that all men should remain silent in order to fit someone else's definition of 'healthy masculinity' is wrong. Saying that all men should discuss their deepest emotions in order to fit someone else's definition of 'healthy masculinity' is also wrong."

Then the word "masculine" according to you has no meaning because the all men are individuals & share no common traits that can be classified.

I disagree.  While it's true everyone has individual characteristics, there are also things that can fall under the "masculine" definition that most men as a group embody.

"And who decides what is or is not 'appropriate' there? I'm talking about more of an individual interpretation of healthy masculinity, which every man should define for himself. As everyone is an individual, they should find what's best for them and stick with it. It's not correct for anyone else to dictate to a man or a woman what constitutes 'healthy masculinity' or 'healthy femininity' especially when they're generalizing and promoting stereotypes. The majority and the minority are all individuals, despite whatever common ground they share. One man's healthy masculinity could be unhealthy for another man."

Whatever works for them personally might be quite different from what can be classified as a masculine trait.  This is the reason you cannot understand this issue.  The word "masculine" has a meaning.  You are confusing it with things that make a person happy.

If it made me happy or complete to dress up in an evening gown, paint my nails,  & dance around my house with exaggerated ballet moves, it cannot be considered "masculine" now can it?

"My friend is a man, and I consider his verbal predilection a healthy part of his masculinity (not a feminine/feminized trait at all) because he is free to talk about his feelings, without being pressured to communicate or being pressured to keep a stiff upper lip. If he doesn't want to talk about anything, then he simply doesn't. He's talkative because that's a trait of the character he is. It works for him, and that's the important thing; if he subscribed to all the stereotypes of 'what a man should be', that would ultimately be a waste of the unique human being he is."

Again, that is not a masculine trait.  Stop confusing what works for him personally with what is technically considered "masculine."

"Just as a woman who doesn't like to share her feelings isn't necessarily exhibiting a masculine trait, or suffering with an unhealthy femininity, just because not all other women like to keep it to themselves."

It's more of a masculine trait than a feminine trait, so you can't call it "feminine" to hold feelings inside.  It's just not something usually associated with women, so it doesn't qualify.

You keep missing that point.

Words have meanings.  If you'd like the word to mean something else, just use a different word.

"One of my closest male friends is very talkative, and I respect that it's a trait of his as an individual. He has every right to voice his thoughts without being condemned as sissy or unmasculine, and that's the type of man I had in mind when saying that if the individual prefers to talk then remaining silent isn't necessarily a healthy ingredient of his personal masculinity. Verbal males may not be the majority but as always, things should be taken on an individual by individual basis."

To repeat:

Words have meanings.  If you'd like the word to mean something else, just use a different word.

A man that shares his feelings all the time is not exhibiting masculine traits when he's doing that.  He could be very masculine in other respects & be "all man", but that particular thing is not usually associated with males, so... well, you know.

[RockyMountainMan]

man that shares his feelings all the time is not exhibiting masculine traits when he's doing that.  He could be very masculine in other respects & be "all man", but that particular thing is not usually associated with males, so... well, you know.

It is my experience that aN OVERLY verbal man is a manipulative man.  They are usually someone that has learned that if they relentlessly lobby for what they want from someone, they will usually get it.  I tend to drive people like this nuts, as I usually will only say "no" to someone a couple of times, then just turn my back on them or just walk away, denying them an audience.

[RockyMountainMan]

IMHO the best work on healthy masculinity has been compiled by Waller Newell at Carleton University (Canada):

What is a Man? 3,000 Years of Wisdom on the Art of Manly Virtue

and

The Code of Man: Love - Courage - Pride - Family - Country