Started by Mr. Bad, May 04, 2007, 08:12 AM
I'm defending the notion that my friend has an unhealthy masculinity because he is a talkative person.
"I'm not sure how one defines "Healthy Masculinity" - but surely, it's a socially defined value. Let's take "healthy". It's one thing to define this as applied to statistical averages. But the word 'healthy' also exists in our language as implying a value judgement. Healthy = positive/good. So it becomes an issue, not only of scientific conclusions, but also of ideology."
"Historically, science has been wrong before about the differences between the sexes (see, for example, formerly respectable branches of science now re-classified as pseudoscience: phrenology etc). This should be enough to at least give you pause lest you become hubristic."
"science is always aware that today's conclusions can become tomorrow's hypotheses. In short, the scientific method may well be the best method - but we must remember, it is not infallible."
Maus - While I agree with you that feminists will try to frame masculinity in terms of evil at any opportunity I also think that the most important thing is for men and boys to see a male positive view of the meanings of masculinity. At this point our schools and other cultural institutions are spouting the male is bad mantra which leaves our boys in a terrible state. I have been wondering about developing a stencil and use spray paint on sidewalks the message "Men are Good." Just to point the idea out there and get people thinking. I have been surprised and saddened to see how many people roll their eyes in disbelief at that phrase. We have a serious pr problem. Boys need to hear the accomplishments and the goodness of their sex. It has been verbotten for years.
Dr E "It could be likened to our claiming that all women are defective and need to be more like men since they are the predominant child abusers and rape so many young boys etc etc."I don't follow your reasoning here. What are you saying? Who claims this?
Brian, that is exactly what I'm asking. I *don't* think men are inherently evil or of less value than women, and I want to know why you do - and, why you think feminism is the cause of this, or a large contributing factor. NOBODY should feel a priori inferior on the basis of their sex!
"Men have been deemed expendable for eons and long before the advent of feminism."-Who deemed them expendable? Feminists would probably argue this was patriarchy, but I suspect you have a different answer.
"They blame all men, not just some men and have been sadly effective in promoting propaganda that claims men are evil, unpredictable and not to be trusted. "-Please explain and support this assertion - it appears you think that ALL feminists blame ALL men. Also, how have 'they' promoted propaganda?
"I feel that 'man-hating' is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them." -- Robin Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor. "I haven't the faintest notion what possible revolutionary role white hetero- sexual men could fulfill, since they are the very embodiment of reactionary- vested-interest-power. But then, I have great difficulty examining what men in general could possibly do about all this. In addition to doing the shitwork that women have been doing for generations, possibly not exist? No, I really don't mean that. Yes, I really do." -- Robin Morgan "I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire." -- Robin Morgan
Dr E - I actually agree with you that it's important for men and boys to have a positive view of masculinity. I really, really, wonder how it has happened that feminism's message - that girls and women are more than male chauvinism would paint them - has been interpreted as 'boys and men are less.' Here's the thing: the media is not friendly to feminism.
In fact, what you read about feminists and feminism in the mainstream media misinterprets and distorts what feminists actually say. The media is interested in making money, and one way to do that is to exaggerate and emphasise the "gender wars" - always a good one to get people riled up. Thus you get stupid adverts where men are portrayed as 'always in the wrong' and their wives are portrayed as smart and clued-in. Ad agencies presumably think this sort of thing will sell their products to women: I find it pretty patronising and offensive. It certainly isn't a feminist message. You will not find me arguing that masculinity is portrayed in a balanced, healthy way in mainstream culture.
Quote"Men have been deemed expendable for eons and long before the advent of feminism."-Who deemed them expendable? Feminists would probably argue this was patriarchy, but I suspect you have a different answer.
"Men have been deemed expendable for eons and long before the advent of feminism."
Quote"They blame all men, not just some men and have been sadly effective in promoting propaganda that claims men are evil, unpredictable and not to be trusted. "-Please explain and support this assertion - it appears you think that ALL feminists blame ALL men. Also, how have 'they' promoted propaganda?
"They blame all men, not just some men and have been sadly effective in promoting propaganda that claims men are evil, unpredictable and not to be trusted. "
Quote"It could be likened to our claiming that all women are defective and need to be more like men since they are the predominant child abusers and rape so many young boys etc etc."I don't follow your reasoning here. What are you saying? Who claims this?
"It could be likened to our claiming that all women are defective and need to be more like men since they are the predominant child abusers and rape so many young boys etc etc."
"The nuclear family must be destroyed... Whatever its ultimate meaning, the break-up of families now is an objectively revolutionary process." -- Linda Gordon"I feel that 'man-hating' is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them." -- Robin Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor."I haven't the faintest notion what possible revolutionary role white hetero- sexual men could fulfill, since they are the very embodiment of reactionary- vested-interest-power. But then, I have great difficulty examining what men in general could possibly do about all this. In addition to doing the shitwork that women have been doing for generations, possibly not exist? No, I really don't mean that. Yes, I really do." -- Robin Morgan"We can't destroy the inequities between men and women until we destroy marriage." -- Robin Morgan"I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire."-- Robin MorganTo call a man an animal is to flatter him; he's a machine, a walking dildo."-- Valerie Solanas, Authoress of the SCUM Manifesto"Life in this society being, at best, an utter bore and no aspect of society being at all relevant to women, there remains to civic-minded, responsible, thrill-seeking females only to overthrow the government, eliminate the money system, institute complete automation, and destroy the male sex."-- Valerie Solana, SCUM founder (Society for Cutting Up Men.)"The male is a domestic animal which, if treated with firmness...can be trained to do most things."-- Jilly Cooper, SCUM (Society For Cutting Up Men, started by Valerie Solanas)"Since marriage constitutes slavery for women, it is clear that the women's movement must concentrate on attacking this institution. Freedom for women cannot be won without the abolition of marriage." -- Sheila Cronin, the leader of the feminist organization NOW"I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig." -- Andrea Dworkin"Marriage as an institution developed from rape as a practice." -- Andrea Dworkin"Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies." -- Andrea Dworkin"In my own life, I don't have intercourse. That is my choice." -- Andrea DworkinUnder patriarchy, every woman's son is her potential betrayer and also the inevitable rapist or exploiter of another woman." -- Andrea Dworkin"To be rapeable, a position that is social, not biological, defines what a woman is." -- Andrea Dworkin"Q: People think you are very hostile to men.A: I am." -- Andrea Dworkin"Men use the night to erase us." -- Andrea Dworkin"The annihilation of a woman's personality, individuality, will, character, is prerequisite to male sexuality." -- Andrea Dworkin"Men love death. In everything they make, they hollow out a central place for death, let its rancid smell contaminate every dimension of whatever still survives. Men especially love murder. In art they celebrate it, and in life they commit it. They embrace murder as if life without it would be devoid of passion, meaning, and action, as if murder were solace, stilling their sobs as they mourn the emptiness and alienation of their lives."-- Andrea Dworkin"Men are rapists, batterers, plunderers, killers; these same men are religious prophets, poets, heroes, figures of romance, adventure, accomplishment, figures ennobled by tragedy and defeat. Men have claimed the earth, called it 'Her'. Men ruin Her. Men have airplanes, guns, bombs, poisonous gases, weapons so perverse and deadly that they defy any authentically human imagination."-- Andrea Dworkin, Pornography: Men Possessing Women"On the Left, on the Right, in the Middle; Authors, statesmen, thieves; so-called humanists and self-declared fascists; the adventurous and the contemplative, in every realm of male expression and action, violence is experienced and articulated as love and freedom."-- Andrea Dworkin, Pornography: Men Possessing Women."The institution of sexual intercourse is anti-feminist" -- Ti-Grace Atkinson"Feminism is the theory, lesbianism is the practice." -- Ti-Grace Atkinson"When a woman reaches orgasm with a man she is only collaborating with the patriarchal system, eroticizing her own oppression." -- Sheila Jeffrys"Politically, I call it rape whenever a woman has sex and feels violated." -- Catherine MacKinnon"All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman." -- Catherine MacKinnon"You grow up with your father holding you down and covering your mouth so another man can make a horrible searing pain between your legs."-- Catherine MacKinnon (Prominent legal feminist scholar; University of Michigan, & Yale.)"In a patriarchal society, all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent."-- Catharine MacKinnon, quoted in Professing Feminism: Cautionary Tales from the Strange World of Women's Studies."The more famous and powerful I get the more power I have to hurt men." -- Sharon Stone; Actress"Ninety-five percent of women's experiences are about being a victim. Or about being an underdog, or having to survive... women didn't go to Vietnam and blow things up. They are not Rambo."-- Jodie Foster; Actress - as quoted in The New York Times Magazine."The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race." -- Sally Miller Gearhart, in The Future - If There Is One - Is Female."And if the professional rapist is to be separated from the average dominant heterosexual (male), it may be mainly a quantitative difference."-- Susan Griffin, Rape: The All-American Crime."If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males." --Mary Daly, former Professor at Boston College, 2001."If anyone is prosecuted for filing a false report, then victims of real attacks will be less likely to report them." - David Angier"Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience." - Catherine Comins"As long as some men use physical force to subjugate females, all men need not. The knowledge that some men do suffices to threaten all women. He can beat or kill the woman he claims to love; he can rape women...he can sexually molest his daughters... THE VAST MAJORITY OF MEN IN THE WORLD DO ONE OR MORE OF THE ABOVE."-- Marilyn French (her emphasis)"All men are rapists and that's all they are"-- Marilyn French, Authoress; (later, advisoress to Al Gore's Presidential Campaign.)"Probably the only place where a man can feel really secure is in a maximum security prison, except for the imminent threat of release."-- Germaine Greer."All men are good for is f**king, and running over with a truck".Statement made by A University of Maine Feminist Administrator, quoted by Richard Dinsmore, who brought a successful civil suit against the University in the amount of $600,000. Richard had protested the quote; was dismissed thereafter on the grounds of harassment; and responded by bringing suit against the University. 1995 settlement."Women have their faults / men have only two: / everything they say / everything they do."-- Popular Feminist Graffiti"We are, as a sex, infinitely superior to men." -- Elizabeth Cady StantonFrom 'A feminist Dictionary; ed. Kramarae and Triechler, Pandora Press, 1985:
1. Advocates lesser rights in law for the target group2. Propagates discrimination against the target group3. Teaches that the target group is inherently inferior and immoral4. Teaches that the target group is a threat5. Uses lies including historical revisionism to spread these views6. Tolerates violence towards the target groupA good case could be make that feminism fits in nicely.For more info you can check out his page athttp://members.tripod.com/feministhate/id35.htm
"-Yes, exactly. Glad you agree. Which is why "healthy masculinity" is not a neutral phrase, any more than "healthy femininity."
"Today's new science will be tomorrow's 'science of old'. You cannot justify your faith in science based ONLY on an appeal to the 'new'. Plus, you are taking my argument to an extreme. I am not arguing that people shouldn't trust science at all. I am arguing for critical thinking."
"To use your analogy: one shouldn't trust modern day surgeons UNCRITICALLY. Would you accept a person perfoming surgery on you, even if you suspected you didn't need it, simply because they have the job title "surgeon"?""
"To go further: what if they assured you that the medical consensus was that this particular surgery was beneficial, that it had proven health benefits etc? I think you can probably guess where this is leading: look at the history of circumcision.""
"Kindly point me towards any respectable scientist who declares their findings to be "irrefutable." Do you even know the meaning of the word hubris?""
"Again, who is concluding that there is NO behavioral difference based on biology?""
"As you say, the degree is still absent from the findings - which is why interpreting and pronouncing WHAT those differences lead to is not hard science, but theory.""
"Bluedye, the rest of your post appears to be an unsupported rant against "feminists".""Support your assertions with evidence, please, or I will assume they are nothing more than personal, misinformed opinion.""
"As for feminism vs science: I say to you, and to everyone else here, are you under the impression that there is no such thing as a scientist who is also a feminist?""