Healthy Masculinity

Started by Mr. Bad, May 04, 2007, 08:12 AM

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dr e

Maus - While I agree with you that feminists will try to frame masculinity in terms of evil at any opportunity I also think that the most  important thing is for men and boys to see a male positive view of the meanings of masculinity.  At this point our schools and other cultural institutions are spouting the male is bad mantra which leaves our boys in a terrible state.  I have been wondering about developing a stencil and use spray paint on sidewalks the message "Men are Good."   Just to point the idea out there and get people thinking.  I have been surprised and saddened to see how many people roll their eyes in disbelief at that phrase.  We have a serious pr problem.  Boys need to hear the accomplishments and the goodness of their sex.  It has been verbotten for years. 
Contact dr e  Lifeboats for the ladies and children, icy waters for the men.  Women have rights and men have responsibilties.

dr e


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I'm defending the notion that my friend has an unhealthy masculinity because he is a talkative person.


No one has said that men who like to talk are unhealthy.  Show me where anyone said that?  Women as a group talk more than men.  That's not an opinion that is a fact.  We now know that hormones and brain structure have a good deal to do with this.  Men and women have a wide variation in their hormones just as they have a wide variation in their height or weight.  There are many women who are over 6 feet tall.  They are simply outliers.  Not pathological or unhealthy just different.
Contact dr e  Lifeboats for the ladies and children, icy waters for the men.  Women have rights and men have responsibilties.

Nillerz

In other words, there are exceptions to every generality. Except this one... >_>
Evolution doesn't stop at the neck.

bluedye

Quote from: Kate
"I'm not sure how one defines "Healthy Masculinity" - but surely, it's a socially defined value. Let's take "healthy". It's one thing to define this as applied to statistical averages. But the word 'healthy' also exists in our language as implying a value judgement. Healthy = positive/good. So it becomes an issue, not only of scientific conclusions, but also of ideology."


It's a very common practice to use the word "healthy" to mean positive/good, so I'm sure the vast majority of people know exactly what is meant by the phrase "healthy masculinity."

Quote from: Kate
"Historically, science has been wrong before about the differences between the sexes (see, for example, formerly respectable branches of science now re-classified as pseudoscience: phrenology etc). This should be enough to at least give you pause lest you become hubristic."


We're not talking about the science of old.  Using your logic I shouldn't trust modern day surgeons because the medieval "surgeons" would make holes in people's heads to let the "bad spirits" out.

What scientists are finding now is irrefutable differences in the biology & chemistry of the male/female brain.  We already know what hormones do to behavior & the fluxion of chemicals do to behavior.

To conclude there is NO behavioral difference based on proven biological difference is lofty at best.  There is obviously some, but the degree is still absent from the findings.  As time passes, we will learn more.

If you look back in history at the feminists, you will find a fair share of misandric hateful women preaching about the destruction of marriage & the evil nature of men.  Historically there has been a lot of hypocritical views in feminism about a number of issues. (women are tough enough for the military, but too weak to hear swears at work or see a naked lady... You should never discriminate against women for any reason, but here is our list of reasons to discriminate against men, & one of my favorites which is someone's signature here, but I forget who... "I am woman, hear me roar, I am invincible, I am pregnant, brother, can you spare a dime?")  So, historically feminists have given people like myself MANY reasons to think their views come from nothing more than self interest & anti-male bias.

...So I'm going to go with the scientists on this one. 

Quote from: Kate
"science is always aware that today's conclusions can become tomorrow's hypotheses. In short, the scientific method may well be the best method - but we must remember, it is not infallible."


When you look at what science proposes vs. what the feminists propose you see a very clear bias on the side of the feminists.  It's much easier to preach equality when the people in question are in fact "equal" beings.  If men are a different animal than women, the "equal" angle flies out the window.  Feminists cling to the theories that support their vision of absolute equality.  Equality under the law?  Sure, everyone can agree on that.  Equal as humans?  Nope, men & women are different.  Apples do not "equal" oranges.

Feminists stand to lose a HUGE part of their ideology if conclusive evidence arises that men & women are not "equal" beings.  Feminists like Nancy Hopkins may have to admit that men may indeed have innate ability to handle spatial tasks that women do not have.

Some other feminists like to prattle on about all of the ways women are innately more nurturing & innately better at multitasking, but would have a Hopkins-esque episode of nausea if you suggested anything innately positive about males.

Science may not be infallible, but placed next to feminism... there's NO contest as to who deserves my trust.

I've been studying feminists for years now & I know this animal pretty well.   Kate's mention of the "creationism vs science" struggle is actually very appropriate here.  There are similarities between the staunch feminists & the devout Christians due to the fact that they both seem to reject science & any findings that conflict their world view.

I can understand their frustration.  They base a large portion of their identity on beliefs that are in direct conflict with scientific findings.  With each new scientific study comes another chisel chipping away at their "safe place." 

It's very easy to see where the feminists would want to reject science.  The problem is that they have to live in a state of denial to accomplish this.   

I've heard feminists try to deny that men are generally better than women at sports.   They have stories about the "girl they knew in high school that once hit a baseball further than a boy" & "their female friend that could run faster than the boys in her kindergarten class" & similar stories of girls beating boys in sports.  Now do they show me professional women boxers winning the Heavyweight Champion of the World title?  Do they show me marathon records of all of the female winners besting the male participants?  Do they show me any examples of professional women athletes outperforming men?  No, they don't ...because they can't.

They are in complete denial.

Kate, feminists have shown themselves to be pretty far off the beam when it comes to issues of logic & common sense.  The refusal to take stock in scientific findings by feminists is "more of the same" as far as I'm concerned.

HER body, HER choice...  HIS responsibility?

MAUS


Maus - While I agree with you that feminists will try to frame masculinity in terms of evil at any opportunity I also think that the most  important thing is for men and boys to see a male positive view of the meanings of masculinity.  At this point our schools and other cultural institutions are spouting the male is bad mantra which leaves our boys in a terrible state.  I have been wondering about developing a stencil and use spray paint on sidewalks the message "Men are Good."   Just to point the idea out there and get people thinking.  I have been surprised and saddened to see how many people roll their eyes in disbelief at that phrase.  We have a serious pr problem.  Boys need to hear the accomplishments and the goodness of their sex.  It has been verbotten for years. 


This is not exactly new and it really predates feminism.

I will use as an example the depiction of the characters in the movie "Rob Roy". In the seventeen hundreds ther was a flourishing of what we would call "metrosexual" males. At the time, more masculine men who scorned this sub-culture refered to it's adherents as "fops". This was, in fact,the origin of the term "gentle"man.

So here we have these two archetypes, the extremely masculine Rob Roy with his fixed notions of honour and the foppish Archibald Cunningham who hadn't buggered a boy in years and in his defence, the last time he did up to the moment of entry, he thought it was a girl.

Rob Roy was willing to serve as father to a child of dubious  sireing whereas Archie drove his lover to suicide by refusing to take responsibility.

Rob Roy honoured women and his relationship to them whereas Archie was as cynical as a pimp.

Most importantly, it was effeminate foppish Archie who was the womanizer and the rapist not burly surly masculine Rob Roy.

This archetype is one of the best examples I can point to that demonstrates the dysfunction of male female relationships is NOT the result of MASCULINITY or PATRIARCHY......it is the result of the abdication of it.

dr e

Men have been deemed expendable for eons and long before the advent of feminism.  You are right about that.  Where feminism has pissed in the drinking water is in their attempts (all too often successful) at framing men and masculinity in terms of violence, greed, and arrogant self-centeredness.  They blame all men, not just some men and have been sadly effective in promoting propaganda that claims men are evil, unpredictable and not to be trusted.  The implication is that they need to grow up and be more like women.  All the while the vast majority of men are living productive lives loving their families and not being even close to the feminists dream of men and the masculine.  They have encouraged people to judge men and the masculine by lumping all men into the tabloid descriptions of violent abusers.  It  could be likened to our claiming that all women are defective and need to be more like men since they are the predominant child abusers and rape so many young boys etc etc.
Contact dr e  Lifeboats for the ladies and children, icy waters for the men.  Women have rights and men have responsibilties.

Kate

Mr Bad:

"I would tend to agree that there are a lot of societal/political aspects to how society addresses "gender" - the more modern customs associated with "chivalry" as it pertains to male/female interactions (vs. its original manifestation of behavior between Knights) is an example of such.  However, one cannot escape biology when examining why those customs were put into place, e.g., the sexual dimorphism between men and women leading to men deferring to women and accepting duties and sacrifices when confronted with physical challenges. "

-Interesting. I am not arguing one needs to 'escape biology.' However, your assertion that sexual dimorphism leads to men deferring to women appears to be a sociological observation. In what way does biology lead to male deferral?


"I disagree that gender roles are traditionally due to socialisation rather than biology; that reasoning puts the cart before the horse so-to-speak.  The social roles of 'masculine' and 'feminine' have evolved over many millenia, IMO primarily due to the biological differences between men and women."

-You seem to be arguing that biology is destiny here. Fair enough: but how do you square that with the MRA arguments against domestic violence: i.e. that feminists who observe men are more violent are 'man-haters' and promoting false assumptions about men?

MAUS:

"To make a long story short Leopold was a brat raised by a platoon of nannys in a Teutonic household and his best source of attention was to get caught and punished for masturbating. He formed a philosophy of what a man's relationship with women aught to be based on this background. Don't bother looking for an English translation of his writings, none was ever done....."

-I believe you are referring to the guy who gave his name to 'masochism.' Didn't he write Venus-in-Furs, which has been widely translated, including into English?

"JOKE: How do you charm the pants off a feminist?

First...place your chin on your chest and sniff and whimper audibly. Then...rock your head back and forth while blinking your eyes too rapidly to be accused of making eye contact. Pout your lower lip visibly. In a whiney near tears voice say "as a new sensitive androgynous male ..I just feel so ASHAMED...and GUILTY...would you like to pee on me?...I'm sure we would both feel much better"

Garanteed much more effective "panty remover"than gin laced with date rape drug."

-The odd thing is, I got a little turned on reading this. No, seriously. Yes, the secret to feminists is we JUST WANT TO PEE ON MEN!

Bluedye:

"It's a very common practice to use the word "healthy" to mean positive/good, so I'm sure the vast majority of people know exactly what is meant by the phrase "healthy masculinity."

-Yes, exactly. Glad you agree. Which is why "healthy masculinity" is not a neutral phrase, any more than "healthy femininity."

"We're not talking about the science of old.  Using your logic I shouldn't trust modern day surgeons because the medieval "surgeons" would make holes in people's heads to let the "bad spirits" out."

-Today's new science will be tomorrow's 'science of old'. You cannot justify your faith in science based ONLY on an appeal to the 'new'. Plus, you are taking my argument to an extreme. I am not arguing that people shouldn't trust science at all. I am arguing for critical thinking.
To use your analogy: one shouldn't trust modern day surgeons UNCRITICALLY. Would you accept a person perfoming surgery on you, even if you suspected you didn't need it, simply because they have the job title "surgeon"? (Or told you they did). To go further: what if they assured you that the medical consensus was that this particular surgery was beneficial, that it had proven health benefits etc? I think you can probably guess where this is leading: look at the history of circumcision.

"What scientists are finding now is irrefutable differences in the biology & chemistry of the male/female brain."

-Kindly point me towards any respectable scientist who declares their findings to be "irrefutable." Do you even know the meaning of the word hubris?

"To conclude there is NO behavioral difference based on proven biological difference is lofty at best.  There is obviously some, but the degree is still absent from the findings.  As time passes, we will learn more."

-Again, who is concluding that there is NO behavioral difference based on biology? As you say, the degree is still absent from the findings - which is why interpreting and pronouncing WHAT those differences lead to is not hard science, but theory.

Bluedye, the rest of your post appears to be an unsupported rant against "feminists". Support your assertions with evidence, please, or I will assume they are nothing more than personal, misinformed opinion. As for feminism vs science: I say to you, and to everyone else here, are you under the impression that there is no such thing as a scientist who is also a feminist?

Dr E - I actually agree with you that it's important for men and boys to have a positive view of masculinity. I really, really, wonder how it has happened that feminism's message - that girls and women are more than male chauvinism would paint them - has been interpreted as 'boys and men are less.' Here's the thing: the media is not friendly to feminism. In fact, what you read about feminists and feminism in the mainstream media misinterprets and distorts what feminists actually say. The media is interested in making money, and one way to do that is to exaggerate and emphasise the "gender wars" - always a good one to get people riled up. Thus you get stupid adverts where men are portrayed as 'always in the wrong' and their wives are portrayed as smart and clued-in. Ad agencies presumably think this sort of thing will sell their products to women: I find it pretty patronising and offensive. It certainly isn't a feminist message. You will not find me arguing that masculinity is portrayed in a balanced, healthy way in mainstream culture.

"Men have been deemed expendable for eons and long before the advent of feminism."

-Who deemed them expendable? Feminists would probably argue this was patriarchy, but I suspect you have a different answer.

"They blame all men, not just some men and have been sadly effective in promoting propaganda that claims men are evil, unpredictable and not to be trusted. "

-Please explain and support this assertion - it appears you think that ALL feminists blame ALL men. Also, how have 'they' promoted propaganda?

"It  could be likened to our claiming that all women are defective and need to be more like men since they are the predominant child abusers and rape so many young boys etc etc."

I don't follow your reasoning here. What are you saying? Who claims this?






Have you learned the lessons only of those who admired you, and were tender with you, and stood aside for you? Have you not learned great lessons from those who braced themselves against you, and disputed passage with you?
-Walt Whitman

Kate

Plus, can anyone tell me how to use the blockquote function in this forum? Cheers.
Have you learned the lessons only of those who admired you, and were tender with you, and stood aside for you? Have you not learned great lessons from those who braced themselves against you, and disputed passage with you?
-Walt Whitman

brian44


Dr E
"It  could be likened to our claiming that all women are defective and need to be more like men since they are the predominant child abusers and rape so many young boys etc etc."

I don't follow your reasoning here. What are you saying? Who claims this?



I wish you could be a man for a decade or two, you'd follow the reasoning then. Unless they don't read, go to the cinema, interact socially with women or watch/listen to any media at all, men feel like they are inferior, the source of most evil and are of less value than women. It is drummed into us implicitly and explicitly every day of our lives.
It is time we began to ask who are these women who continually rubbish men. The most stupid, ill-educated and nasty woman can rubbish the nicest, kindest and most intelligent man and no one protests.

Men seem to be so cowed that they can't fight back, and it is time they did." Doris Lessing

Kate

Brian, that is exactly what I'm asking. I *don't* think men are inherently evil or of less value than women, and I want to know why you do - and, why you think feminism is the cause of this, or a large contributing factor. NOBODY should feel a priori inferior on the basis of their sex!
Have you learned the lessons only of those who admired you, and were tender with you, and stood aside for you? Have you not learned great lessons from those who braced themselves against you, and disputed passage with you?
-Walt Whitman

brian44


Brian, that is exactly what I'm asking. I *don't* think men are inherently evil or of less value than women, and I want to know why you do - and, why you think feminism is the cause of this, or a large contributing factor. NOBODY should feel a priori inferior on the basis of their sex!


I wish I could give you a full reply but I will soon be away from my computer and for the next few days. There are so many things that have caused this situation. As far as the media is concerned, women are protected by political correctness, men (especially white men) are not. The advertising and film industries use men as objects of derision or hate objects to sell things or appeal to women. Modern films make women look strong/clever and men cowardly, weak and stupid. Next time you watch a modern film try reversing the male and female roles and see how you would feel about that. But there's so much more that feminism has done. For example, it has invaded education and politics with terrible results for men and boys. Even research concerning men and women is usually slanted in favour of women.

That's all I have time for now. I will be back at my computer on Sunday or Monday.
It is time we began to ask who are these women who continually rubbish men. The most stupid, ill-educated and nasty woman can rubbish the nicest, kindest and most intelligent man and no one protests.

Men seem to be so cowed that they can't fight back, and it is time they did." Doris Lessing

neonsamurai

Hi Kate,

Block quotes can be used when producing your reply to another by copying and pasting the text you want and using the symbol that looks like a rectangular speech bubble in the 'add BBS tags' toolbar.

Quote
"Men have been deemed expendable for eons and long before the advent of feminism."

-Who deemed them expendable? Feminists would probably argue this was patriarchy, but I suspect you have a different answer.


But we don't see this as a issue that feminists (i.e. the Fawcett Society or NOW) are attempting to tackle. We see lots of stuff about the 'glass ceiling' on their websites or their literature, but they don't mention the 'glass basement', which is the phenomenom where men make up 90% of the workplace deaths. Were the deaths those of women, obviously it'd be part of the feminist manifesto, but as it's not it's ignored. Surely it should at least be taken into account that men do more dangerous jobs when calculating '76 pence to the pound'?

Quote
"They blame all men, not just some men and have been sadly effective in promoting propaganda that claims men are evil, unpredictable and not to be trusted. "

-Please explain and support this assertion - it appears you think that ALL feminists blame ALL men. Also, how have 'they' promoted propaganda?


Clearly not all feminists hate all men, anymore than all of Al-Qaeda hate all Americans, but if I were to meet somebody from Al-Qaeda I would make the assumption that they did. That's a generalisation, sure but there's probably a greater chance of my assumption being right than wrong. Obviously it's not quite as extreme as that with feminists, but I've yet to be convinced that feminists all love all men, especially when I read this:

Quote
"I feel that 'man-hating' is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them." -- Robin Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor.

"I haven't the faintest notion what possible revolutionary role white hetero- sexual men could fulfill, since they are the very embodiment of reactionary- vested-interest-power. But then, I have great difficulty examining what men in general could possibly do about all this. In addition to doing the shitwork that women have been doing for generations, possibly not exist? No, I really don't mean that. Yes, I really do." -- Robin Morgan

"I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire." -- Robin Morgan


Now those are the quotes from the former editor of Ms Magazine, which is the premier feminist magazine worldwide. That's pretty bad PR, whichever way you paint it, but unlike Mel Gibson saying sorry, or Boris Johnson appologising to Liverpool to try and save face, I can't find any details of Robin or Ms doing the same thing. Had the editor of FHM or Loaded said the same thing of women, they would have been fired.

So why do you think the same wasn't true of Robin Morgan? Is that because to fire her for basing her political agenda on hating men, would have been seen as pandering to men? Regardless of the reason the message it sends is that the spokesmagazine for feminists is okay with what she said. This isn't something some blogger has said, or a reporter in a local paper, but the editor of a magazine distributed world wide, which sends a pretty powerful message.

The only time men appear on the NOW or Fawcett Society websites is in the form of oppressors, a control to show how bad women have it or as problems that need to be fixed. It's not a bunch of hate filled nonsense pointing the finger, but it's only half the story. I'm not saying MRA's give the whole picture in our protests or (far more limited) media, but we're mainly here to counter feminism and what we believe is the feminist agenda.

If feminism were about true equality then 'us' as a movement wouldn't exist.
Dr. Kathleen Dixon, the Director of Women's Studies: "We forbid any course that says we restrict free speech!"

dr e

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Dr E - I actually agree with you that it's important for men and boys to have a positive view of masculinity. I really, really, wonder how it has happened that feminism's message - that girls and women are more than male chauvinism would paint them - has been interpreted as 'boys and men are less.' Here's the thing: the media is not friendly to feminism.


Okay, hold it right there.  Media not friendly to feminism?  LMFAO!!!  You have got to be kidding.  Maybe you are saying that they don't get it exactly as it was portrayed by the original source.  That is true with media everywhere...but please notice the lack of any coverage of men's issues and the millions of gallons of ink and bandwidth that go to women's issues. 



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In fact, what you read about feminists and feminism in the mainstream media misinterprets and distorts what feminists actually say. The media is interested in making money, and one way to do that is to exaggerate and emphasise the "gender wars" - always a good one to get people riled up. Thus you get stupid adverts where men are portrayed as 'always in the wrong' and their wives are portrayed as smart and clued-in. Ad agencies presumably think this sort of thing will sell their products to women: I find it pretty patronising and offensive. It certainly isn't a feminist message. You will not find me arguing that masculinity is portrayed in a balanced, healthy way in mainstream culture.


Blaming the media for gender wars is laughable.  Without the feminist hate we wouldn't have gender wars.




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Quote
"Men have been deemed expendable for eons and long before the advent of feminism."


-Who deemed them expendable? Feminists would probably argue this was patriarchy, but I suspect you have a different answer.


Patriarchy?  I don't know what that is.  If you want to use such a term please define it.  What I see is that men have been deemed expendable over the eons due to rigid sex roles.  Not oppression. 

Quote
Quote
"They blame all men, not just some men and have been sadly effective in promoting propaganda that claims men are evil, unpredictable and not to be trusted. "


-Please explain and support this assertion - it appears you think that ALL feminists blame ALL men. Also, how have 'they' promoted propaganda?


Look at the Robin Morgan quotes offered by Neon.  That is hatred and it is accepted by mainstream feminism.  There are plenty more quotes out there if you want me to paste in a few I would be happy to.  Then of course we have the Valerie Solanas hatred but that is more of an outlier.
Quote

Quote
"It  could be likened to our claiming that all women are defective and need to be more like men since they are the predominant child abusers and rape so many young boys etc etc."


I don't follow your reasoning here. What are you saying? Who claims this?


Men have been generalized by feminists by  pointing out the male outliers and making the claim that they represent men as a group.  But okay, if you are going to play dumb here is a start to who is making this sort of claim:

Quote
"The nuclear family must be destroyed... Whatever its ultimate meaning, the break-up of families now is an objectively revolutionary process." -- Linda Gordon

"I feel that 'man-hating' is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them." -- Robin Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor.

"I haven't the faintest notion what possible revolutionary role white hetero- sexual men could fulfill, since they are the very embodiment of reactionary- vested-interest-power. But then, I have great difficulty examining what men in general could possibly do about all this. In addition to doing the shitwork that women have been doing for generations, possibly not exist? No, I really don't mean that. Yes, I really do." -- Robin Morgan

"We can't destroy the inequities between men and women until we destroy marriage." -- Robin Morgan

"I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire."
-- Robin Morgan

To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he's a machine, a walking dildo."
-- Valerie Solanas, Authoress of the SCUM Manifesto

"Life in this society being, at best, an utter bore and no aspect of society being at all relevant to women, there remains to civic-minded, responsible, thrill-seeking females only to overthrow the government, eliminate the money system, institute complete automation, and destroy the male sex."
-- Valerie Solana, SCUM founder (Society for Cutting Up Men.)

"The male is a domestic animal which, if treated with firmness...can be trained to do most things."
-- Jilly Cooper, SCUM (Society For Cutting Up Men, started by Valerie Solanas)

"Since marriage constitutes slavery for women, it is clear that the women's movement must concentrate on attacking this institution. Freedom for women cannot be won without the abolition of marriage." -- Sheila Cronin, the leader of the feminist organization NOW

"I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig." -- Andrea Dworkin

"Marriage as an institution developed from rape as a practice." -- Andrea Dworkin

"Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies." -- Andrea Dworkin

"In my own life, I don't have intercourse. That is my choice." -- Andrea Dworkin

Under patriarchy, every woman's son is her potential betrayer and also the inevitable rapist or exploiter of another woman." -- Andrea Dworkin

"To be rapeable, a position that is social, not biological, defines what a woman is." -- Andrea Dworkin

"Q: People think you are very hostile to men.
A: I am." -- Andrea Dworkin

"Men use the night to erase us." -- Andrea Dworkin

"The annihilation of a woman's personality, individuality, will, character, is prerequisite to male sexuality." -- Andrea Dworkin

"Men love death. In everything they make, they hollow out a central place for death, let its rancid smell contaminate every dimension of whatever still survives. Men especially love murder. In art they celebrate it, and in life they commit it. They embrace murder as if life without it would be devoid of passion, meaning, and action, as if murder were solace, stilling their sobs as they mourn the emptiness and alienation of their lives."
-- Andrea Dworkin

"Men are rapists, batterers, plunderers, killers; these same men are religious prophets, poets, heroes, figures of romance, adventure, accomplishment, figures ennobled by tragedy and defeat. Men have claimed the earth, called it 'Her'. Men ruin Her. Men have airplanes, guns, bombs, poisonous gases, weapons so perverse and deadly that they defy any authentically human imagination."
-- Andrea Dworkin, Pornography: Men Possessing Women

"On the Left, on the Right, in the Middle; Authors, statesmen, thieves; so-called humanists and self-declared fascists; the adventurous and the contemplative, in every realm of male expression and action, violence is experienced and articulated as love and freedom."
-- Andrea Dworkin, Pornography: Men Possessing Women.

"The institution of sexual intercourse is anti-feminist" -- Ti-Grace Atkinson

"Feminism is the theory, lesbianism is the practice." -- Ti-Grace Atkinson


"When a woman reaches orgasm with a man she is only collaborating with the patriarchal system, eroticizing her own oppression." -- Sheila Jeffrys

"Politically, I call it rape whenever a woman has sex and feels violated." -- Catherine MacKinnon

"All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman." -- Catherine MacKinnon

"You grow up with your father holding you down and covering your mouth so another man can make a horrible searing pain between your legs."
-- Catherine MacKinnon (Prominent legal feminist scholar; University of Michigan, & Yale.)

"In a patriarchal society, all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent."
-- Catharine MacKinnon, quoted in Professing Feminism: Cautionary Tales from the Strange World of Women's Studies.

"The more famous and powerful I get the more power I have to hurt men." -- Sharon Stone; Actress

"Ninety-five percent of women's experiences are about being a victim. Or about being an underdog, or having to survive... women didn't go to Vietnam and blow things up. They are not Rambo."
-- Jodie Foster; Actress - as quoted in The New York Times Magazine.

"The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race." -- Sally Miller Gearhart, in The Future - If There Is One - Is Female.

"And if the professional rapist is to be separated from the average dominant heterosexual (male), it may be mainly a quantitative difference."
-- Susan Griffin, Rape: The All-American Crime.

"If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males." --Mary Daly, former Professor at Boston College, 2001.

"If anyone is prosecuted for filing a false report, then victims of real attacks will be less likely to report them." - David Angier

"Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience." - Catherine Comins

"As long as some men use physical force to subjugate females, all men need not. The knowledge that some men do suffices to threaten all women. He can beat or kill the woman he claims to love; he can rape women...he can sexually molest his daughters... THE VAST MAJORITY OF MEN IN THE WORLD DO ONE OR MORE OF THE ABOVE."
-- Marilyn French (her emphasis)


"All men are rapists and that's all they are"
-- Marilyn French, Authoress; (later, advisoress to Al Gore's Presidential Campaign.)

"Probably the only place where a man can feel really secure is in a maximum security prison, except for the imminent threat of release."
-- Germaine Greer.

"All men are good for is f**king, and running over with a truck".
Statement made by A University of Maine Feminist Administrator, quoted by Richard Dinsmore, who brought a successful civil suit against the University in the amount of $600,000. Richard had protested the quote; was dismissed thereafter on the grounds of harassment; and responded by bringing suit against the University. 1995 settlement.

"Women have their faults / men have only two: / everything they say / everything they do."
-- Popular Feminist Graffiti

"We are, as a sex, infinitely superior to men." -- Elizabeth Cady Stanton

From 'A feminist Dictionary; ed. Kramarae and Triechler, Pandora Press, 1985:
Contact dr e  Lifeboats for the ladies and children, icy waters for the men.  Women have rights and men have responsibilties.

dr e

Here's a link for you Kate.  It describes how feminism is a hate movement.
David Byron has done some excellent work on this idea and has mapped out the characteristics of a hate group:

Quote
1. Advocates lesser rights in law for the target group
2. Propagates discrimination against the target group
3. Teaches that the target group is inherently inferior and immoral
4. Teaches that the target group is a threat
5. Uses lies including historical revisionism to spread these views
6. Tolerates violence towards the target group

A good case could be make that feminism fits in nicely.

For more info you can check out his page at

http://members.tripod.com/feministhate/id35.htm
Contact dr e  Lifeboats for the ladies and children, icy waters for the men.  Women have rights and men have responsibilties.

bluedye

Quote from: Kate
"-Yes, exactly. Glad you agree. Which is why "healthy masculinity" is not a neutral phrase, any more than "healthy femininity."


By stating it is not a "neutral" phrase, are you trying to discount it?  ...Because some phrases have a very direct message.  It's my understanding of phrasing that neutrality is reserved for specific instances where it is applicable & not a mandate for all phrases.


Quote from: Kate
"Today's new science will be tomorrow's 'science of old'. You cannot justify your faith in science based ONLY on an appeal to the 'new'. Plus, you are taking my argument to an extreme. I am not arguing that people shouldn't trust science at all. I am arguing for critical thinking."


But you also cannot ignore the differences between the science of old with modern day science.  Your comparison between the two to discredit modern science was unfair.

Quote from: Kate
"To use your analogy: one shouldn't trust modern day surgeons UNCRITICALLY. Would you accept a person perfoming surgery on you, even if you suspected you didn't need it, simply because they have the job title "surgeon"?""


That is a very specific instance where I would have to know the nature of the surgery & the nature of the reasons why I suspected  I didn't "need" it.

Quote from: Kate
"To go further: what if they assured you that the medical consensus was that this particular surgery was beneficial, that it had proven health benefits etc? I think you can probably guess where this is leading: look at the history of circumcision.""


I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.  If you're trying to discount scientific findings based on the "hot button" topic of male mutilation, then I will tell you to find another handle to pull.

What happens to male babies doesn't make scientific research into gender irrelevant.  I hope you're not trying a "slight of hand" tactic here.

Quote from: Kate
"Kindly point me towards any respectable scientist who declares their findings to be "irrefutable." Do you even know the meaning of the word hubris?""


Wow, that statement alone reeks of "hubris."   When biologists find structural differences in the brains of men & women.  ...Do you think they are "theories?"  When biologists found that humans have a heart that pumps blood through out system, is it still "theoretical?" ...Would you agree that structural variances in our brains are factual?  Is there anything involving the known biological structure of the human form that can be considered "irrefutable?"  ...Or perhaps we should we assume that  biology is as "soft" as you'd like it to be?

Quote from: Kate
"Again, who is concluding that there is NO behavioral difference based on biology?""


Radical feminists.

Quote from: Kate
"As you say, the degree is still absent from the findings - which is why interpreting and pronouncing WHAT those differences lead to is not hard science, but theory.""


Well, when you have scientists telling us that the differences we've all witnessed between the sexes is a result of "hard-wiring" & you have man-hating, self centered feminists telling us that the differences are from societal programing, there is a "who do you trust" question that emerges.  ...As I've already stated.

Quote from: Kate
"Bluedye, the rest of your post appears to be an unsupported rant against "feminists"."

"Support your assertions with evidence, please, or I will assume they are nothing more than personal, misinformed opinion.""


Please spare me the "Oh, I don't know what those other feminists do" line of BS.  All you have to do is look at the broadening of the definition of "sexual harassment" to see just how fragile feminists think women are... but in a 180 turn, they will INSIST women are the exact same thing as men & need to lead platoons of soldiers in Iraq or become firefighters because they're just as tough as a man.

If you cannot bring yourself to understand the blatant hypocrisy there, you will have shown yourself to be someone too blinded by ideology to be trusted/believed.

Quote from: Kate
"As for feminism vs science: I say to you, and to everyone else here, are you under the impression that there is no such thing as a scientist who is also a feminist?""


Well, nowadays some of the women entering the sciences are there because the feminists have told them that they need to do that lest be "undervalued" as a woman.  It's the same reason many women work instead of stay home with their families.

...Not necessarily because they want to, but because they've been guilted into it by narrow minded feminists.

Any scientist that is also a feminist would get the same reaction from me as any other scientist that was a member of a narrow minded hate group...

That reaction being... If you associate yourself with that sexist bullshit, you've proven to me that you needn't be listened to. 



HER body, HER choice...  HIS responsibility?

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