Started by Mr. Bad, May 04, 2007, 08:12 AM
Brian, that is exactly what I'm asking. I *don't* think men are inherently evil or of less value than women, and I want to know why you do - and, why you think feminism is the cause of this, or a large contributing factor. NOBODY should feel a priori inferior on the basis of their sex!
-The odd thing is, I got a little turned on reading this. No, seriously. Yes, the secret to feminists is we JUST WANT TO PEE ON MEN!
"As for feminism vs science: I say to you, and to everyone else here, are you under the impression that there is no such thing as a scientist who is also a feminist?""
Quote"Notice how they run as soon as the logic appears."I call a flagrant foul here: Attributing to one person the comments of another is a cheap shot. You owe me shiva.
"Notice how they run as soon as the logic appears."
OK folks. I am not going to be able to post here until next week, weds or thurs. Just to let anyone with bated breath know! I'll try and address everyone's points then
With that said, Mr Bad, let's have at it. I can repost my original questions or you can suggest another way to debate. I guess what I'm having trouble with is the idea that feminism's focus 'not harming girls and women' is somehow actively causing harms to boys and men.* I'm interested, too, in your definition of healthy/unhealthy masculinity.
As for the "wall of feminist hate quotes"....Dr E, do you really want to go down this road? I could make a very good case, should I choose to, that MRAs are misogynists or whatever, if the evidence required is simply a wall of quotes taken out of context
As regards David Byron's definition of a hate group - again, a case could be made that MRAs are a hate group against feminism!
If you could make a good case please go ahead and make it. Show us editors of popular national magaizines that are offering up qyotes that are hateful to women. Show us authors of popular masculinist books that are dishing out hateful quotes about women and girls. Show us quotes from male college professors that are hateful towards women.
As regards David Byron's definition of a hate group - again, a case could be made that MRAs are a hate group against feminism
Women's lower average net contribution and longer life span means that an average female can expect to receive 2.4 mill. dkr ( ~400.000 $ ) more from the public than she pays. On the other hand the average male can expect to pay 0.8 mill. dkr ( ~133.333 $ ) more than he receives from the public.
Men have been deemed expendable for eons and long before the advent of feminism. You are right about that. Where feminism has pissed in the drinking water is in their attempts (all too often successful) at framing men and masculinity in terms of violence, greed, and arrogant self-centeredness. They blame all men, not just some men and have been sadly effective in promoting propaganda that claims men are evil, unpredictable and not to be trusted. The implication is that they need to grow up and be more like women. (etc.)
Mr Bad:"I would tend to agree that there are a lot of societal/political aspects to how society addresses "gender" - the more modern customs associated with "chivalry" as it pertains to male/female interactions (vs. its original manifestation of behavior between Knights) is an example of such. However, one cannot escape biology when examining why those customs were put into place, e.g., the sexual dimorphism between men and women leading to men deferring to women and accepting duties and sacrifices when confronted with physical challenges. "-Interesting. I am not arguing one needs to 'escape biology.' However, your assertion that sexual dimorphism leads to men deferring to women appears to be a sociological observation. In what way does biology lead to male deferral?
"I disagree that gender roles are traditionally due to socialisation rather than biology; that reasoning puts the cart before the horse so-to-speak. The social roles of 'masculine' and 'feminine' have evolved over many millenia, IMO primarily due to the biological differences between men and women."-You seem to be arguing that biology is destiny here. Fair enough: but how do you square that with the MRA arguments against domestic violence: i.e. that feminists who observe men are more violent are 'man-haters' and promoting false assumptions about men?
hansside said: QuoteWomen's lower average net contribution and longer life span means that an average female can expect to receive 2.4 mill. dkr ( ~400.000 $ ) more from the public than she pays. On the other hand the average male can expect to pay 0.8 mill. dkr ( ~133.333 $ ) more than he receives from the public.That is a very important stat. Do you know if there has been anyone tabulating the number for the US? This is the sort of thing that we need to get out there. BS exposed as chivalry from the government who does all of this "giving" by taxing the men.