Study: 30% of mothers and 40% of fathers are abused during a pregnancy

Started by ., Jul 06, 2007, 09:32 AM

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Is "Who Me" a troll who is not truly debating?

Yes, she's a troll.  Ban her!
2 (10%)
Yes, she's a troll.  Refute her.
9 (45%)
Yes, she's a troll.  Ignore her.
4 (20%)
She's a thoughtful and fair debater.
5 (25%)

Total Members Voted: 20

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.

I think she forgot the question.  ("Gonzo's a meanie too...")  The question was how you can support your insinuation that smaller samples of males in a study, relative to females, means the study is invalid or cooked.

dr e


I think she forgot the question.  ("Gonzo's a meanie too...")  The question was how you can support your insinuation that smaller samples of males in a study, relative to females, means the study is invalid or cooked.


Exactly John.

Makes a claim about how the studies are flawed due to the sample being 2-1 female to male and then never explains why that would make a difference but goes on and on about new attacks and other obfuscating crap.  We can see clearly the way feminists work in this posters lack of responsibility for her statements and her avoiding taking responsibility.  Reminds me of my children when they were little.  Well, not really, my children cared about all people, not just some.
Contact dr e  Lifeboats for the ladies and children, icy waters for the men.  Women have rights and men have responsibilties.

Cordell Walker



I have no  problem discussing , disagreeing, or even agreeing with you Ms Who Me?, but its hard to be civil when I was falsely accused of using a very offensive word, and  only recieved a  qualified, "im sorry if I'm worong" type of apology, when its pretty evenly ascertainable that you WERE mistaken


And I apologized for the error.  You seem to have a real problem accepting the apology.

If you do not want to accept it............fine, but stop demanding what you refuse to accept.


I have no problem accepting your apology..........................I just wish that it didnt have a "qulaifier"(ie (I may have had the wrong poster) but thats cool.
apology accepted.
thats the end of it
as far as I am c oncerned who me?, we got a fresh start......good enough for you?
"how can you kill women and children?"---private joker
"Easy, ya just dont lead em as much" ---Animal Mother

.

#453
Jul 18, 2007, 02:37 PM Last Edit: Jul 18, 2007, 02:50 PM by johndias
By the way, the DV expert John Hamel (who I told you all I would ask about the subject of smaller quantities of males in study samples) wrote back.  Here is the exchange:

(From me to John Hamel):

Quote
Hi, John.  I've got a question for you.

In an internet discussion forum, there is a discussion going on about domestic violence and its impact on male victims.  Some of the men are bringing up the fact that studies indicate that men and women commit abuse against each other at roughly equal rates.  The Fiebert bibliography has been cited.  But one of the feminist-oriented participants in the discussion pointed out that in many of the studies listed in Fiebert's bibliography, the sample of women dwarfed the sample of men.  She has implied that this means the results are skewed in order to get a desired result.

Why is there this pattern of lower male samples in such studies?  Can valid conclusions be drawn when you're measuring a gender-based phenomenon but not including equal numbers of men and women in the sample?  How is this controlled for?

John Dias



(John Hamel's reply):

Quote

John:

The feminist-oriented participant is giving you a line of bs.  Almost without exception, all of the so-called "conflict" surveys, which frame questions about partner violence in terms of relational conflict rather than a crime, find equal rates of violence across the genders, and often more by women.  These studies sometimes give total numbers, but as far as I know, typically give percentages of respondents, and sometimes extrapolate to the general population.  So it's completely irrelevant what the sample size of women is compared to men; what matters is the percentage of abused men and women. This is usually done as numbers per hundred or numbers per thousand.  As long as there is a large enough sample of both men and women, you can find the relative proportions of each.

Fiebert's annotated bibliography has been much-maligned by some radical feminists, primarily because of its emphasis on rates.  I don't know if I ever sent you my own annotated bibliography, but if I haven't here it is.  It also looks at context.

John

TheManOnTheStreet

Since you are so hell bent on pointing out someone using the "N" word here (I was the offending person), maybe you should also point out that the individual apologised for said usage.  Or does that part not enter into your little "evil men scheme"?


Doc E, Fair enough.

DLove.  Consider this an official apology.  While not an excuse, I am a victim of PUI (posting under the influence). 

Secondly, although I still feel what I feel about PC'ness in word usage, I do in fact understand your position and distaste for my post, and once again offer a honest, heartfelt apology for my poor choice of wording. 

PS.  I was in a situation almost identical to that one once.  And I did brandish my Kimber.  And the individual IMMEDIATE fell to the floor, placed his hands over his head and started began begging me not to shoot him.  Maybe he has read some of my posts?  <injecting humor to hopefully smooth over my ignorance>.

One again, I was wrong... and I apologise.

TMOTS


http://standyourground.com/forums/index.php?topic=13629.30

TMOTS
The Man On The Street is on the street for a reason.......
_________________________________
It's not illegal to be male.....yet.

.

"Who Me," I have an audio file for you...  (See attached)    :cya:

dr e

Quote

The feminist-oriented participant is giving you a line of bs.


Nice summary.  Short, sweet, and to the point.

So now we get to see what the next deflection will be. 

gg no re
Contact dr e  Lifeboats for the ladies and children, icy waters for the men.  Women have rights and men have responsibilties.

The Gonzman



I know exactly what the word means.  But thanks for you input anyway.

The means do not justify the end.  Proposing violence is not the way to approach anything if you expect to be taken seriously.


One girl told him bluntly: "My mother says violence never solves anything."

"So?" Mr. Dubois looked at her bleakly. "I'm sure the city fathers of Carthage would be glad to know that. Why doesn't your mother tell them so? Or why don't you?"

They had tangled before - since you couldn't flunk the course, it wasn't necessary to keep Mr. Dubois buttered up. She said shrilly, "You're making fun of me! Everybody knows that Carthage was destroyed!"

"You seem to be unaware of it," he said grimly. "Since you do know it, wouldn't you say that violence had settled their destinies rather thoroughly? However, I was not making fun of you personally; I was heaping scorn on an inexcusably silly idea - a practice I shall always follow. Anybody who clings to the historically untrue - and thoroughly immoral - doctrine that 'violence never solves anything' I would advise to conjure up the ghosts of Napoleon Bonaparte and the Duke of Wellington and let them debate it. The ghost of Hitler could referee, and the jury might well be the Dodo, the Great Auk, and the Passenger Pigeon. Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and their freedom."


Robert A. Heinlein
Starship Troopers
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the Shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am the MEANEST son-of-a-bitch in the valley.

The Gonzman



I think she forgot the question.  ("Gonzo's a meanie too...")  The question was how you can support your insinuation that smaller samples of males in a study, relative to females, means the study is invalid or cooked.


Exactly John.

Makes a claim about how the studies are flawed due to the sample being 2-1 female to male and then never explains why that would make a difference but goes on and on about new attacks and other obfuscating crap.  We can see clearly the way feminists work in this posters lack of responsibility for her statements and her avoiding taking responsibility.  Reminds me of my children when they were little.  Well, not really, my children cared about all people, not just some.


It's more than that, Doc.

She claimed she read through the Bibliography, and then claims that each and every one of the studies cited has such a skew.

And it plain isn't so.

That's not just a misrepresentation, or deflection.

It's a lie.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the Shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am the MEANEST son-of-a-bitch in the valley.

dr e

Okay Gonz.  I stand corrected.   :icon_cyclops_ani:

Contact dr e  Lifeboats for the ladies and children, icy waters for the men.  Women have rights and men have responsibilties.

Mr. X

Quote
My mother says violence never solves anything.


I always like to reply to that with:

"And capitualtion has never really solved anything."
Feminists - "Verbally beating men like dumb animals or ignoring them is all we know and its not working."

typhonblue

Er... I'm afraid this is a bit embarassing-by-proxy.

Who Me... the 'abstract' they're refering to in the link refers to a SUMMARY of the article, not that its based on an abstract theory.

Chris Key



Placing one group ahead of another is a form of bigotry.  By ignoring one group you're more or less rendering demoting them to a "second-class" status.  The discrimination leads to caos between the two demographics, as the discriminated group will end up fighting back against the people who treated them like second-class citizens.  You're seeing this in action on this board.

Men as a group have been treated as second-class citizens by the law for a long time.  The problem dates back to 19th Century English law.  Women received a large amount of criminal law impunity and civil law privilege over men under 19th Century English Law.  The problem was worsened during the 20th Century when the second-wave feminists came along and inspired the legislators into enforcing more anti-male legal practices.

The result is men are losing empathy and respect for women.  They're starting to hate women and see them as the 'enemy'.  There is some legitimacy behind the way men are acting, as they are subjugated by a force (a coalition between the Government and women) that is far stronger than them.

Blame should be placed on the shoulders of the chivalrous legislators and women who have exploited men.  They've created a 'battle of the sexes' that has led to normal men feeling that the only alternative is to doubt and hate anything that is female.

You'll find that men will oppose 'violence against women' when the law system and women oppose 'violence against men'.  The problem is the media, the Government and society in general treats violence against men as a joke.  You cannot expect men to care about violence agaisnt women when society portrays violence against men as 'okay'.  It is wrong for men to not care about violence against women, but you cannot blame men for thinking this way when they live in a society that treats violence against men as a joke.  It's a example of why the chivalrous men and feminists are an enemy of women, as they're more or less turning normal men against women.


The domestic violence laws in the majority of states are gender nuetral as they should be.  The enforcement is where the problem exist in those states.

That has to be changed by getting the word.  You are not going to find many women that believe other women have the right to abuse their spouse or b/f just as the majority of men do not feel a man has the right to abuse his soupse or g/f. 

That is the stiuation that should be addressed...the enforcement of those laws that are on the book in the states who's laws are gender nuetral.

There also needs to be a concerted effort to see that the laws are gender nuetral in all states.

That will not be achieved by ignoring the problems that exist in regard to domestic violence.  It will not be achieved by ignoring the problems we have in our society in regard to violent attacks in general.

Meanwhile, back at the farm 2 more pregnant women have come up missing just this past week.  They are most likely dead. 

How many husbands of pregnant women have come up missing this week and are most likely dead on the other hand?

You can't cheer one and morn the other and expect anyone that can think and reason to back you on the deal.

If it's equality you want; go for it.  You will find much support.  But if you are looking to turn the clock back you will get absolutely nowhere.

Also I think you missed something in my posts.  I was comparing the figures between death caused by male on male attacks compared to death caused by female on male attacks.  There is a huge cavern between those numbers.  For the sake of reason and honesty they should not be ignored.

Houston we have problems here.  The problem is violence.  It should not be tolerated, ignored, or cheered.  But it looks like some just can't help themselves.......and then they wonder why things are the way they are?  Those people are part of the problem.


Although I agree with some of your points, I disagree with the "tangential points" and rhetorical language you have used to derail the topic.  For example, you claimed that "few" women would support female perpetrated violence against men, and that we'll be supported if we want 'equality'.  How do you know?  Do you have any proof to confirm this?  If not, then your statements are assertions -- not facts.

I'm sure a lot of men and women on here can testify that a lot of chivalrous men and feminists are against the implemention of 'complete equality' between the sexes.  You don't see many women fighting for the right to be drafted into the military, nor do you see them fighting for employment within the most hazardous industries that society has to offer.  How many women are fighting to be breadwinners and the givers of child support/spousal support?

If television content is anything to go by, then it's safe to say that there's a shortage of female actors putting themselves through embarrassing and sexist ordeals.  Male actors are told to put themselves in sexist and embarrassing situations on a constant basis.  Can you name the amount of movies that show a woman being kicked in the vulva?  Now compare that to the amount of movies that show a man being kicked in the testes.  Why do you think there's such a huge disparity between the showing of vulva kicking and testis kicking?  Because violence against men is accepted by society, while violence against women is abhorred.

You cannot sit there and say that vulva kicking isn't shown because it "doesn't hurt", because if you were to say that, then you would be telling a lie.  Based on the real life accounts (testimonies and video footage of female athletes being hit in the groin) and scientific information I have come across, I have obtained enough information to come to the conclusion that a blow to the vulva is extremely painful and debilitating.  Therefore, if testis kicking is "glorified" because it's painful and debilitating, then vulva kicking should be glorified; or, both acts should be shunned for the fact they're dangerous and vulgar. Personally, I believe both acts should be shunned, as it's downright sick for the media to portray the dangerous, embarrassing and painful act of groin kicking as comedic.

Why did I bring up the "groin kicking on TV" argument?  Because you said that most women do not believe that they have a right abouse their boyfriends and spouses.  If that held true, then you would see women complaining about all the testis kicking scenes that are shown in the movies and on television.  So far I am yet to see a great of women complain about it.  All I have seen is a complaint from women about a commercial that showed two women throwing pies at each other while they wore a bikini.
Men's Rights Activist,
Chris Key


Men's Rights Online - http://www.mens-rights.net

Men's Rights Online Forum - http://forum.mens-rights.net

Chris Key

It's hard to measure the commonality of female perpetrated violence against men as most men are conditioned into believing that they should accept the violence and never report it to the authorities.  Another reason that male victims of DV are scared of reporting their abuse to the authorities is because the biased legal system is known to take a woman's accusation more seriously than a man's accusation.  Therefore, you cannot rely on law enforcement statistics such as arrest and conviction rates as a 'measurement' of the problem.

A survey on domestic violence is nothing more but a form of anecdotal evidence, as the methodology that it uses does not include the investigation and validation of each claim that is made by its respondents.

Women are encouraged to portray themselves as "victims", as women who are battered by men are placed on a pedestal by our society.  A plethora of Government-funded services are available for "battered women" and women who say don't want to stay at home because they feel scared.  Dogs have shelters that are funded and speciallly built for them by the Council and/or Government.  An equivalent does not exist for men.
Men's Rights Activist,
Chris Key


Men's Rights Online - http://www.mens-rights.net

Men's Rights Online Forum - http://forum.mens-rights.net

Chris Key



Hard data about women being as violent?  Here's a start:

http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

Here's a taste of what you will find there:
Quote

Archer, J. (2000).  Sex differences in aggression between heterosexual partners: A meta-analytic review.  Psychological Bulletin, 126, 651-680. (Meta-analyses of sex differences in physical aggression indicate that women were more likely than men to "use one or more acts of physical aggression and to use such acts more frequently."  In terms of injuries, women were somewhat more likely to be injured, and analyses reveal that  62% of those injured were women.)


World famous researcher, renowned journal, important message. 


And exceptionally nice cherry picking.  You didn't think I would read did you?

From your link:

Quote
Aizenman, M., & Kelley, G. (1988).  The incidence of violence and acquaintance rape in dating relationships among college men and women.  Journal of College Student Development, 29, 305-311.  (A sample of actively dating college students <204 women and 140 men> responded to a survey examining courtship violence.  Authors report that there were no significant differences between the sexes in self reported perpetration of physical abuse.)


You DID notice the difference in the figures for the first "study" here right?  Women questioned 2 to 1 compared to men and wow, the number of incidents equal?

It gets better though:

Quote
Arias, I., Samios, M., & O'Leary, K. D. (1987).  Prevalence and correlates of physical aggression during courtship. Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 2, 82-90. (Used Conflict Tactics Scale with a sample of 270 undergraduates <95 men, 175 women> and found 30% of men and 49% of women reported using some form of  aggression in their dating histories with a greater percentage of women engaging in severe physical aggression.)


Here again, a 2 to 1 ratio.  Is that the only way they can get equal numbers?  Something is wrong here.

Quote
Bernard, M. L., & Bernard, J. L. (1983).  Violent intimacy: The family as a model for love relationships.  Family Relations, 32, 283-286.  (Surveyed 461 college students, 168 men, 293 women, with regard to dating violence.  Found that 15% of the men admitted to physically abusing their partners, while 21% of women admitted to physically abusing their partners.)


What is it with this 2 to 1 ratio anyway?  Got to even those numbers out for the resulting data somehow I guess.

Interesting thing is they used this 2 to 1 ratio for each of these studies......well, not each of them.  Some of the studies employed a 3 to 1 ratio.  3 women compared to 1 man responding and then they reported the results as if it was an even response ratio?

Oh, you may need to know.  I'm a senior engineer for a research and development group for a major defense contractor.  I have an extremely thorough understanding of hard data and how it can be manipulated.

Let's try starting with studies that utilize data gathered from the same number of respondents from each gender pool.

You wouldn't want to try to employ skewed data now would you?




Part of your argument is true, as an eneven quota can skew the results of an experiment.  Saying that though, there are a plethora of other factors that can skew the results of a survey on DV.  You're probably aware that society's expectations on what it is to be a man is one of the main reasons that male victims of DV are reluctant to talk about their abuse.

It can be quite beneficial for a woman to portray herself as a "victim".  A false accusation of DV and/or rape can be used to gain leverage during a custody dispute and/or divorce hearing.  Lawyers encourage women to make false accusations of DV and/or rape against their spouses for this reason.  Men can falsely accuse women of DV, however they're less likely to be believed.

Out of curiosity, what is your opinion on the following situation.  A survey on DV is conducted.  The researchers nterview 250 men and 500 women.  They find that 40 men and 80 women admitted that they were violent towards their spouses.  That means 16% of the men and 16% of the women were guilty of committing DV.  Is this a fair survey, or is it skewed?
Men's Rights Activist,
Chris Key


Men's Rights Online - http://www.mens-rights.net

Men's Rights Online Forum - http://forum.mens-rights.net

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