Started by outdoors, Aug 07, 2007, 07:15 AM
Again you are confusing whether they "care" about them with whether they provide and protect. So you are saying that the men don't lift a finger to protect their women? I find that hard to believe. You mean to tell me that the average schmo family is as likely to have a woman providing for the men as it is to have the men providing for the women? Somehow I find that pretty hard to believe. Forget the oil money. That doesn't speak to the cultural norm like an average family would. Isn't this the same culture that has honor killings?
Quote from: dr e on Aug 08, 2007, 12:12 PMAgain you are confusing whether they "care" about them with whether they provide and protect. So you are saying that the men don't lift a finger to protect their women? I find that hard to believe. You mean to tell me that the average schmo family is as likely to have a woman providing for the men as it is to have the men providing for the women? Somehow I find that pretty hard to believe. Forget the oil money. That doesn't speak to the cultural norm like an average family would. Isn't this the same culture that has honor killings? The average schmo family is bedouin. They're living off the land in what we would consider abject poverty. And, yes, women are providing just as much as men in that situation (if not more because men are often unemployed.) As for lifting a finger to protect their women... From what? The only threat to these women comes from the men themselves, and no, one man won't stop another man from beating on, raping or killing that man's female relatives. The _other_ average schmo family is a bachelor living in the city and working for himself. I'm not exaggerating when I say that most men don't marry in that culture.
Wow. Fascinating stuff. I had no idea of the extent of anti-female behaviors that go on there. Thank you for giving me a lesson.It is absolutely mind boggling that the feminists aren't throwing a fit over this stuff. Instead what we see is them supporting Muslim cultures. Are they simply ignorant or are they consciously choosing their agenda?
Haven't you ever wondered why, when you look at education aimed at high-paying fields: engineering, programming, medicine... the majority of the women in those fields are from Asia, India and the middle east? From conservative, male-favoring cultures that, if they are going to pay for a daughter's education, won't pay for one in which she will end up more comfortable, but less well paid.
Quote from: typhonblue on Aug 08, 2007, 12:37 PMHaven't you ever wondered why, when you look at education aimed at high-paying fields: engineering, programming, medicine... the majority of the women in those fields are from Asia, India and the middle east? From conservative, male-favoring cultures that, if they are going to pay for a daughter's education, won't pay for one in which she will end up more comfortable, but less well paid. As someone who is from that side of the globe, I will say that in my experience, times are a-changing. Daughters are often treated better than sons by parents, girls always treated better than boys by schools, and less sacrifices expected of women in the workforce than of men.
Despite the furious pace of change and modernization that has occurred in Saudi Arabia over the last half century, the traditional extended family - parents, siblings, aunts and uncles, cousins and grand and great grand parents still form the basic unit of the society. Within the extended family, traditional respect for age, gender roles of men outside the home as providers and women in the dominant role inside the home are changing but still intact. The influence of the extended family thus carries over into social life, business and politics. Socially, the Saudis still tend to socialize, marry, and conduct business together.
Gender Roles: Traditional gender roles in Saudi society share a number of common characteristics with other traditional societies, the most notable of which is that men's roles are outside the home as family providers, protectors, and managers, and women's roles are in the home. Men are predominant outside the home -- in business and public affairs and business, and women are to a large degree predominant within the home, particularly in parental decisions. Increasingly, however, the lines of distinction are being blurred. For example, as the population explosion has greatly reduced the per capita income, many young wives are finding employment outside the home, and husbands are assuming duties in the home unthinkable a generation ago.
The reason for this which is also the reason that feminists have had such an easy time in getting legislation passed and services funded, is because men are genetically, hormonally and socially programmed to take care of (provide and protect) women. Men are asleep in a sea of provide and protect and refuse to wake to the humanist idea that men are also in need sometimes.I hear your frusttration and can only nod my head with a similar experience. For all of our upset with the feminists it is the sleeping and bigoted men in power who are a huge force that is against us.
Your original observation, given due to outdoors frustration with males sabotaging his efforts to open a mens DV shelter, acknoledging automatic mens provide and protect responseS to women and children is universaly correct [including amongst mohameddans.]
A FEW OBSERVATIONS SHOULD GIVE CONTEXT TO MOHAMEDAN STYLE CHAUVENISM VERSUS TUETON CHAUVENISM FROM WHICH WE ALL SUFFER AS MALES1 Right now the so called rabid patriarchal taleban have executed the two male south koreans they've held as hostages for some time but are negotiating the position of so many held women. Secondly, the Sunni taleban variant in iraq who were viscious cut throats to male captives in many cases released female captives. Or at worst let them die of bullets not blades. Thirdly even the saudi executions of criminals are in majority of men. They are chauvenist bigotts but not misogynist.
4 The withdrawal of mohamedans and middle easterns, male or female, from casual touching, nudity, kissing, talking to strangers or excessive open laughter in public are all cultural resrictions and codes designed to maintain integrity between the sexes, politness between strangers, and other good morals related to an honest and clean way of living. That is in spite of external and elemental conditions.
In short an honest anthropologist visiting the middle east and studying the strictures of arabian culture or religion will understand everything as developed in service of maintaining integrity and order amongst a poverty ridden people.
It is absolutely mind boggling that the feminists aren't throwing a fit over this stuff.
1. Honor killings targeting mostly women.2. The expectation that women must uphold their behavioral code _before_ their own lives.When these two laws are in place, there's usually the inference that the women must fight to stop a man from raping them, but never disobey men, and must be killed if they are raped. Is this similar to this people you're talking about? The laws sound similar but the application may differ. That's a stupid law... "Fight off someone bigger and stronger than you, but stop fighting if they command/order you to, but don't do this with them..." LOL.
Bedouin men and women live traditional lifestyles, in a traditional lifestyle the man may have dominion outside of the home but that does not mean the woman is not providing _in_ the home. In fact saying as such could amount to applying our fifties-created notion of 'providership' to a situation in which it makes no sense(almost complete absense of jobs.) Producing goods for sale, animal husbandry, gathering-- all these are done by bedouin women to support their families. They aren't sitting in a tent filing their nails and getting window treatments.