proof and point

Started by outdoors, Aug 07, 2007, 07:15 AM

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dr e

Again you are confusing whether they "care" about them with whether they provide and protect.  So you are saying that the men don't lift a finger to protect their women?  I find that hard to believe.  You mean to tell me that the average schmo family is as likely to have a woman providing for the men as it is to have the men providing for the women?  Somehow I find that pretty hard to believe.  Forget the oil money.  That doesn't speak to the cultural norm like an average family would. 

Isn't this the same culture that has honor killings? 
Contact dr e  Lifeboats for the ladies and children, icy waters for the men.  Women have rights and men have responsibilties.

typhonblue

#16
Aug 08, 2007, 12:37 PM Last Edit: Aug 08, 2007, 12:40 PM by typhonblue

Again you are confusing whether they "care" about them with whether they provide and protect.  So you are saying that the men don't lift a finger to protect their women?  I find that hard to believe.  You mean to tell me that the average schmo family is as likely to have a woman providing for the men as it is to have the men providing for the women?  Somehow I find that pretty hard to believe.  Forget the oil money.  That doesn't speak to the cultural norm like an average family would. 

Isn't this the same culture that has honor killings? 


The average schmo family is bedouin. They're living off the land in what we would consider abject poverty. And, yes, women are providing just as much as men in that situation (if not more because men are often unemployed.) As for lifting a finger to protect their women... From what? The only threat to these women comes from the men themselves, and no, one man won't stop another man from beating on, raping or killing that man's female relatives.

The _other_ average schmo family is a bachelor living in the city and working for himself. I'm not exaggerating when I say that most men don't marry in that culture.

Yep, honor killings. Mostly target women.

Around the world most families are two-provider families, with the woman putting in as much effort as the man. Around the world, women are expected to pull their own weight. Men don't hold doors open for them, nor do they carry their packages. In some places if a man was beating on a woman in public, they'd probably arrest the woman for public indecency (allowing a man to touch her.)

Haven't you ever wondered why, when you look at education aimed at high-paying fields: engineering, programming, medicine... the majority of the women in those fields are from Asia, India and the middle east? From conservative, male-favoring cultures that, if they are going to pay for a daughter's education, won't pay for one in which she will end up more comfortable, but less well paid.

The west's notion of male providership, even male protection (since most war-focused societies, fight to defend the honor of men, not for the protection of women), is an anomoly. A blip on the radar provided for by the Christian condemnation: men must sacrifice for their wives as Christ sacrificed for the church.

When you're in the middle of one of the most insane notion ever created by man, of _course_ it looks sane and the arguments all make sense.

But once you step outside...


dr e



Again you are confusing whether they "care" about them with whether they provide and protect.  So you are saying that the men don't lift a finger to protect their women?  I find that hard to believe.  You mean to tell me that the average schmo family is as likely to have a woman providing for the men as it is to have the men providing for the women?  Somehow I find that pretty hard to believe.  Forget the oil money.  That doesn't speak to the cultural norm like an average family would. 

Isn't this the same culture that has honor killings? 


The average schmo family is bedouin. They're living off the land in what we would consider abject poverty. And, yes, women are providing just as much as men in that situation (if not more because men are often unemployed.) As for lifting a finger to protect their women... From what? The only threat to these women comes from the men themselves, and no, one man won't stop another man from beating on, raping or killing that man's female relatives.

The _other_ average schmo family is a bachelor living in the city and working for himself. I'm not exaggerating when I say that most men don't marry in that culture.






Wow.  Fascinating stuff.  I had no idea of the extent of anti-female behaviors that go on there.  Thank you for giving me a lesson.

It is absolutely mind boggling that the feminists aren't throwing a fit over this stuff.  Instead what we see is them supporting Muslim cultures.  Are they simply ignorant or are they consciously choosing their agenda? 
Contact dr e  Lifeboats for the ladies and children, icy waters for the men.  Women have rights and men have responsibilties.

typhonblue



Wow.  Fascinating stuff.  I had no idea of the extent of anti-female behaviors that go on there.  Thank you for giving me a lesson.

It is absolutely mind boggling that the feminists aren't throwing a fit over this stuff.  Instead what we see is them supporting Muslim cultures.  Are they simply ignorant or are they consciously choosing their agenda? 


This is one of the things that first pissed me off about feminists.

They don't acknowledge the reality unless it's to say 'women in the west are just as oppressed.'

I remember hearing that once from a western feminist. Lets just say it didn't help my dissillusionment in the movement any.

Why don't they care? The same reason why there are more rape services for rich white women then poor, non-white women. Because feminism is a movement for one group of women, every other group of women is either irrelevant or finds their concerns co-opted to inflate the poor-rich-white-girl agenda.

Besides, where would western women be without oil from the middle east?

shard43


Haven't you ever wondered why, when you look at education aimed at high-paying fields: engineering, programming, medicine... the majority of the women in those fields are from Asia, India and the middle east? From conservative, male-favoring cultures that, if they are going to pay for a daughter's education, won't pay for one in which she will end up more comfortable, but less well paid.


As someone who is from that side of the globe, I will say that in my experience, times are a-changing. Daughters are often treated better than sons by parents, girls always treated better than boys by schools, and less sacrifices expected of women in the workforce than of men.

Women seem to pull their share when they come to the US, since a secretary can't get a visa. But there is a sharp delineation between the professional women who are on their own visa and/or working, and the women who come over on dependent visas, who are much more likely to stay home. The professional women are also much rarer, and they have the three options after having a baby or after marrying, depending on how rich they are :-

1. Work full-time.
2. Stay at home full-time.
3. Some combination of the above.

Women seem to be less "have-it-all" over there, but there is not the same kind of pressure on daughters as there is on sons to join a high-paying, early-death profession.

typhonblue



Haven't you ever wondered why, when you look at education aimed at high-paying fields: engineering, programming, medicine... the majority of the women in those fields are from Asia, India and the middle east? From conservative, male-favoring cultures that, if they are going to pay for a daughter's education, won't pay for one in which she will end up more comfortable, but less well paid.


As someone who is from that side of the globe, I will say that in my experience, times are a-changing. Daughters are often treated better than sons by parents, girls always treated better than boys by schools, and less sacrifices expected of women in the workforce than of men.


Yes, that's true.

Are you talking about the Middle East and India or Asian nations?

poiuyt

Quote
Wow.  Fascinating stuff.  I had no idea of the extent of anti-female behaviors that go on there.  Thank you for giving me a lesson.

It is absolutely mind boggling that the feminists aren't throwing a fit over this stuff.  Instead what we see is them supporting Muslim cultures.  Are they simply ignorant or are they consciously choosing their agenda? 


1 On account of whose feeble authority or say so does a middle eastern nation stand as misogynist ? One also must be weary of accepting the formative-years-opinion on saudi arabia of a westerner who addmittedly at the time espoused feminism.

2 The practice of mohameddan-chauvenism makes them no less freinds of women and children than teuton-chauvenism makes westerners more freinds of the same!!! 
 
3 Here are links from which an unbiased and unprejudiced perspective can be acquired on the middle east and many other nations to include Saudi Arabia.

http://www.nationmaster.com/country/sa-saudi-arabia

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita
Amogst the lowest national rape-rates eh

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/dem_fem_min-democracy-female-ministers
Amongst the highest national female leadership rates eh

dr e

Interesting links poiuyt.  If you think Typhon is in error I hope you will explain how and why.  Very curious that they have the lowest rape per capita and one of the highest involvmenet of women in their government.  Looks like there is likely more to this story and I would be curious to hear your side.
Contact dr e  Lifeboats for the ladies and children, icy waters for the men.  Women have rights and men have responsibilties.

dr e

Here is an interesting viewpoint that claims men in Saudi Arabia have traditionally been the providers.   Looks pretty clear to me.

http://www.saudi-american-forum.org/Newsletters/SAF_Essay_09.htm

Quote
Despite the furious pace of change and modernization that has occurred in Saudi Arabia over the last half century, the traditional extended family - parents, siblings, aunts and uncles, cousins and grand and great grand parents still form the basic unit of the society. Within the extended family, traditional respect for age, gender roles of men outside the home as providers and women in the dominant role inside the home are changing but still intact. The influence of the extended family thus carries over into social life, business and politics. Socially, the Saudis still tend to socialize, marry, and conduct business together.


and this:

Quote
Gender Roles: Traditional gender roles in Saudi society share a number of common characteristics with other traditional societies, the most notable of which is that men's roles are outside the home as family providers, protectors, and managers, and women's roles are in the home. Men are predominant outside the home -- in business and public affairs and business, and women are to a large degree predominant within the home, particularly in parental decisions. Increasingly, however, the lines of distinction are being blurred. For example, as the population explosion has greatly reduced the per capita income, many young wives are finding employment outside the home, and husbands are assuming duties in the home unthinkable a generation ago.
Contact dr e  Lifeboats for the ladies and children, icy waters for the men.  Women have rights and men have responsibilties.

poiuyt

Quote from: Dr Evil
The reason for this which is also the reason that feminists have had such an easy time in getting legislation passed and services funded, is because men are genetically, hormonally and socially programmed to take care of (provide and protect) women.  Men are asleep in a sea of provide and protect and refuse to wake to the humanist idea that men are also in need sometimes.

I hear your frusttration and can only nod my head with a similar experience.  For all of our upset with the feminists it is the sleeping and bigoted men in power who are a huge force that is against us.


Your original observation, given due to outdoors frustration with males sabotaging his efforts to open a mens DV shelter, acknoledging automatic mens provide and protect responseS to women and children is universaly correct [including amongst mohameddans.]

A FEW OBSERVATIONS SHOULD GIVE CONTEXT TO MOHAMEDAN STYLE CHAUVENISM VERSUS TUETON CHAUVENISM FROM WHICH WE ALL SUFFER AS MALES

1 Right now the so called rabid patriarchal taleban have executed the two male south koreans they've held as hostages for some time but are negotiating the position of so many held women. Secondly, the Sunni taleban variant in iraq who were viscious cut throats to male captives in many cases released female captives. Or at worst let them die of bullets not blades. Thirdly even the saudi executions of criminals are in majority of men. They are chauvenist bigotts but not misogynist.

2 The polygammy of mohamedans is not born of venal lasciviousness but of a provide and protect chivalry approriate to their conditions ie arabia and most of the third world until discovery of mineral resources were dirt poor places indeed. Ten or twenty wives and their kids had provisions and protection from the big strong mullah against others and the elements they would otherwise not have had. Chauvenists bigotts not misogynists.

3 The development of arranged marriages and honour killings, the counterpart to western shot-gun marriages and other cultural abominations, had to do with dissuading rif-raff, fly-by-night scoundrels, male and female, who having no personal account, resource or consequence to their name from posterity. Dissuade that is from engaging in sexual or other behaviours, the responsibilities of which would fall to others, ie the providers and protecters. Chauvenism not misogyny.

4 The withdrawal of mohamedans and middle easterns, male or female, from casual touching, nudity, kissing, talking to strangers or excessive open laughter in public are all cultural resrictions and codes designed to maintain integrity between the sexes, politness between strangers, and other good morals related to an honest and clean way of living. That is in spite of external and elemental conditions.

In short an honest anthropologist visiting the middle east and studying the strictures of arabian culture or religion will understand everything as developed in service of maintaining integrity and order amongst a poverty ridden people.

Amongst middle easterns and most mohamedans the prevailing egalitarian stricture is:
"you shall not enjoy the privilege of life options the responsibilities of which have any chance of falling to others. Otherwise parasites, dependants, theives and liars find sanctuary and a suitable environment to propagate themselves ".

Conversely amongst middle easterns and arabian cultrure the egalitarian code is:
"all life options the responsibility of which fall to you, are yours. And no person or group through majority election or ballot is permited to undermine this".

dr e

Thank you poiuyt for pointing this out.  Very helpful stuff.  I really should have taken the time yesterday to do a 3 minute google search and I would have found just what I needed to know.  My bad. 

My experience over the last few years has shown me clearly that we have two enemies: radical feminists who hate men and sleeping men who feel protective of women and girls and disdainful for any man who might show the slightest need.  By far the worse of the two is the men.  The radical feminists can be shown to be ignorant and bigoted in short order but the persistent and pernicious attitudes of the men live on no matter what.  Their attitudes are "under the radar" and not being questioned or observed.  They are usually not directly related to the issue at hand so their chivalrous attitudes don't show up in the discussions.  But like a noxious gas they permeate and change everything.   They are almost impossible to alter and they are sadly in large numbers, especially in our elected officials.  We really need an F4J type approach here in the states to start waking up some of these men. 
Contact dr e  Lifeboats for the ladies and children, icy waters for the men.  Women have rights and men have responsibilties.

outdoors

 I agree dr.e-its the men who are the biggest problem.As one fellow activist said,and i quote"feminists get away with it,because we let them". If all men stood up and said something,anything, this war on men would not be so out of hand and we as men would not have such an up-hill battle now.


"Maus"
this is the answer i recieved;

"The United Way funding is directed solely to registered not for profit organizations - Applications are received in the spring each year and reviewed



Our funding is for the delivery of services and not for capital acquisitions and as such if you were asking if we would fund the construction or renovation of appropriate facilities, I would suggest not likely, however if you were asking if we would fund appropriate program delivery it may be possible dependent on the funds we have available annually.



I am attaching the link to our web site for this information for you."



http://unitedway-tbay.on.ca/funding.htm

if you look at the application-most of the questions would be hard if not impossible to answer. Do i just guess?

typhonblue

#27
Aug 09, 2007, 10:48 AM Last Edit: Aug 09, 2007, 11:03 AM by typhonblue

Your original observation, given due to outdoors frustration with males sabotaging his efforts to open a mens DV shelter, acknoledging automatic mens provide and protect responseS to women and children is universaly correct [including amongst mohameddans.]


If muslim chivalry was of the same strength and nature of Teutonic Chivlary (adopted and expanded by Christianity) then how do you explain the following phenomena:

1. Honor killings targeting mostly women.

2. The expectation that women must uphold their behavioral code _before_ their own lives.

Quote
A FEW OBSERVATIONS SHOULD GIVE CONTEXT TO MOHAMEDAN STYLE CHAUVENISM VERSUS TUETON CHAUVENISM FROM WHICH WE ALL SUFFER AS MALES

1 Right now the so called rabid patriarchal taleban have executed the two male south koreans they've held as hostages for some time but are negotiating the position of so many held women. Secondly, the Sunni taleban variant in iraq who were viscious cut throats to male captives in many cases released female captives. Or at worst let them die of bullets not blades. Thirdly even the saudi executions of criminals are in majority of men. They are chauvenist bigotts but not misogynist.


That is because female executions are done by the men of the family, not the government.

Look at the sex ratio in Saudi Arabia:

Saudi Arabia    1.2    1.05    1.04    1.33    1.13

Compared to parity, that is a lot of missing women. Where are they?

I think it's an uphill battle to argue female-favoritism in a society that practices female infanticide, female sex-selective abortion and honor killings.

Quote
4 The withdrawal of mohamedans and middle easterns, male or female, from casual touching, nudity, kissing, talking to strangers or excessive open laughter in public are all cultural resrictions and codes designed to maintain integrity between the sexes, politness between strangers, and other good morals related to an honest and clean way of living. That is in spite of external and elemental conditions.


It also reduces the scope of female sexual power.

Quote
In short an honest anthropologist visiting the middle east and studying the strictures of arabian culture or religion will understand everything as developed in service of maintaining integrity and order amongst a poverty ridden people.


Saudi Arabia has no economy. The only economy that exists is providing consumer services to the huge amount of people that recieve oil money.

Bedouin men and women live traditional lifestyles, in a traditional lifestyle the man may have dominion outside of the home but that does not mean the woman is not providing _in_ the home. In fact saying as such could amount to applying our fifties-created notion of 'providership' to a situation in which it makes no sense(almost complete absense of jobs.)

Producing goods for sale, animal husbandry, gathering-- all these are done by bedouin women to support their families. They aren't sitting in a tent filing their nails and getting window treatments.

*edit* The other thing is... do they mean 'provide for the family' or 'provide for their wife'. Big difference.

As for women being part of the legislature. That's just bizarre as Saudi Arabia is a totalitarian regime. There _is_ no legislature.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consultative_Assembly_of_Saudi_Arabia

Contradicts the nationmaster report entirely. Of course it's wikipedia.

How can our notion of chivalry exist in a society where a woman is expected to uphold her behavioral code over her own life?

shiva

@ dr e:

Quote
It is absolutely mind boggling that the feminists aren't throwing a fit over this stuff.


Yeah, I've always wondered why they never kick up a fuss over girls who are legitimately being discriminated against on basis of gender. The ones who have it rather good, they cry about.

@ TB:

Quote
1. Honor killings targeting mostly women.

2. The expectation that women must uphold their behavioral code _before_ their own lives.

When these two laws are in place, there's usually the inference that the women must fight to stop a man from raping them, but never disobey men, and must be killed if they are raped. Is this similar to this people you're talking about? The laws sound similar but the application may differ. That's a stupid law... "Fight off someone bigger and stronger than you, but stop fighting if they command/order you to, but don't do this with them..." LOL.



Quote
Bedouin men and women live traditional lifestyles, in a traditional lifestyle the man may have dominion outside of the home but that does not mean the woman is not providing _in_ the home. In fact saying as such could amount to applying our fifties-created notion of 'providership' to a situation in which it makes no sense(almost complete absense of jobs.) Producing goods for sale, animal husbandry, gathering-- all these are done by bedouin women to support their families. They aren't sitting in a tent filing their nails and getting window treatments.


In tribes all around the world (some gypsy, some african, etc.) with skewed family dynamics like this, i.e the women are sole providers, things are even more off-kilter. The women are supposed to work the lands, raise the children, chop the wood, keep the animals, make the clothes, make the food, keep the husband provided for in the home. In a lot of these circumstances the male provides nothing whatsoever other than sex (and sometimes an occasional beating.) Sometimes money, but a lot of these people have land and knowledge and are self-sufficient. At least, the poorer of them. It's not an uncommon scenario at all.
The above is the individual opinion of shiva. Unless stated otherwise, it's just an opinion; please do not confuse with a certified expert's individual opinion.

The Biscuit Queen

So outdoors, could you please tell us more about your shelter? Is it in a residence? What services do you provide? What situations have the men come from? What protection do you offer the men there? Do many of them have children?

Thank you for being so active and seeking to provide this much needed service to men.
he Biscuit Queen
www.thebiscuitqueen.blogspot.com

There are always two extremes....the truth lies in the middle.

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