A Second Interview on the Michael Dresser Show

Started by Thomas, Sep 12, 2007, 01:29 PM

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dr e

Yes TMOS.  I would agree with you on calling gay marriage something other than marriage.  One of the problems is the name itself.  A name is critical.  Names have power.   Just imagine a group of people who have different religious beliefs who suddenly decided that they should be allowed to call themselves "Catholic."  Why would the vatican fight a good fight to make sure they weren't allowed to do so?  Because the name is critical.  If anyone could call themselves Catholic it would dilute what it means to be Catholic.  In the same way, gay marriage is quite different from hetero marriage and should not be allowed to be called the same.  It is not the same.   It is different.  Call it something different while allowing the same rights.  As TMOS says, is it the rights they seek or the name? 
Contact dr e  Lifeboats for the ladies and children, icy waters for the men.  Women have rights and men have responsibilties.

Lazurite


If radical gays have no interest in diluting the concept of marriage, then what is the big deal with calling their union a 'civil union' instead of a 'marriage'?


You're answering you're own question here.  Radical gays.  The more reasonable among the LGBT community don't mind it being called a civil union, since the outcome in terms of actual rights is the same.  The ones that demand it be called a marriage or nothing are a vanishingly small yet infuriatingly vocal minority.

Quote

Marriage was (and is somewhat still) considered a religious ceremony.  To imply that gays have no interest in forcing their sexual deviance upon traditional families is rediculous.  Of course they do.  Traditional families are defined as a man and a woman.  Period.  Thus the word 'traditional'.  The 'marriage' of two men (or two women) goes against the religious definition of marriage.  Demanding that it be called such is, in fact, an assault on the true aspects of the ceremony.  I personally believe that is exactly what they want.

For the record, I use the word 'deviance' because that is what it is.  Sex, BIOLOGICALLY, is defind as a procreational act.  A penis and a vagina..... sperm and an egg.  Dont tell me it is normal.  It is not.  If something goes against nature it is unnatural.  If something (or an act) goes against the biological norm, it is a deviance of that norm. 

Now, all that said, I have no problem with gay individuals being treated just as married couples under the label of a Legal Civil Union.  I don't really care what people do behind closed doors.  They have just as much right to do what they want to sexually as I do.  If two people of the same sex love each other that much to want to be considered a legal union, thus encompasing all the supposed pluses of a 'marriage'... let em.  Just don't call it a marriage.


Which is the point I'm trying to make, really.  Let gay couples be considered a union like marriage under the law.  Whether or not it's actually called marriage isn't important from a utilitarian perspective.

TheManOnTheStreet

I was never really disagreeing with you Laz.  I was just merely adding my two worthless cents into the mix...

TMOTS
The Man On The Street is on the street for a reason.......
_________________________________
It's not illegal to be male.....yet.

Garak


What Pat Kibbon said.

The traditional family has been under attack and a big part of that attack is minimizing the importance of fathers.  Couple this with the villification of men, the glorification of women, no-fault divorce, the breakdown of traditional sex roles and what do you get?  You get the mess we are in today.    "Anyone can do it" is the mantra of the "it takes a village" crowd.  Women can be fathers better than men.  etc etc.  By claiming that same sex marriages are equal to hetero marriages you dilute the idea of marriage.  In my view same sex marriage doesn't cause the breakdown in marriages but it is one element that has been thrown in the mix that has resulted in the increased hatred of men, boys, and fathers.


Yes, this is what I wanted to say. Thanks Dr. E.
I will stop staring at your boobs when you stop staring at my paycheck!

dr e

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Whether or not it's actually called marriage isn't important from a utilitarian perspective.


Completely disagree.  The name makes a huge difference and goes far beyond the ornate.  How about if some country decided that it was going to call itself the United States of America.  Would anyone have a problem with that?  Duh.  Why would they have a problem?  THE NAME.
Contact dr e  Lifeboats for the ladies and children, icy waters for the men.  Women have rights and men have responsibilties.

TheManOnTheStreet

I agree that they should be allowed the same 'luxuries' of a married couple, but disagree that the term 'marriage' "isn't important from a utilitarian perspective".......

The NAME is more important than most would believe.....

TMOTS
The Man On The Street is on the street for a reason.......
_________________________________
It's not illegal to be male.....yet.

MAUS



Let me put in the simplest terms I can everyone.

The traditional family is threatened by ANY re-defiinition of family.

Since we know that heterosexual men will not be considered a part of any of these new definitions...tell me how it does not hurt the traditional family?




How, exactly?  If marriage is opened to gays, straight people will continue to form marriages with one man and one woman, the same as now.  Opening marriage to gays and lesbians won't change that, it just means that gay and lesbian couples will legally be married instead of single.  They weren't getting married anyway.  The only difference it might make at all to traditional marriage is the small number of bisexuals who might choose a partner of their own sex over one of the opposite sex since lack of marriage benefits would no longer be an issue.


Picture a court room where the presiding judge is a deisel dyke with a marine brush cut and little round Leon Trotsky glasses.

What used to be called "you bore me bitch"is now called "attention deficit disorder" ...only boys are ever diagnosed as having it.

The kids heterosexual parents do not deem being a boy to be a medical condition that needs to be treated with drugs.

In the name of the child's best interests the kid is confiscated by the state and put into the custody of a gay but childless couple.

You don't think think happens? TAKE THE RED PILL :angryfire:

CaptDMO


  Whether or not it's actually called marriage isn't important from a utilitarian perspective.

Gee, we've been through this
From a utilitarian prospective "Rape" implies what?
From a utilitarian prospective "Domestic violence" implies what?
From a utilitarian prospective "user fee, regulatory assessment, surcharge, etc., etc," imply what?
From a utilitarian prospective "child abuse" implies what?
From a utilitarian prospective "child suppport" implies what?
From a utilitarian prospective "education" implies what?
From a utilitarian prospective "head of household" implies what?

But if you insist-
when I say "gay" I  refer to happy-
apparently an inappropriate word for many un-wed, un-adored, un-specially entitled, radical  practitioners of homosexuality.
when I say "lesbian", I'm referring to the female subset of homosexual practitioners.
when I say "dyke", I refer to only to water management.
when I say "diesel dyke", I refer only to petroleum spill containment.
when I say "faggot" I refer only to that worth the same as bundles of sticks.
when I say "retard", I refer only to deceleration.
when I say "Liars" I refer to ALL groups that have repeatedly, and traditionally,  utilized disingenuous assumptions of ironicly co-opted language, strictly for the
strategy of assimilation of established truisms where the heavy lifting has already been
done by others .

Glad you could help to clear up.
Erin Pizzy would approve.     

Lazurite


Whether or not it's actually called marriage isn't important from a utilitarian perspective.


This bit of my last post seems to have been misinterpreted somewhat, so I should clarify.  I mean that as long as gay couples are afforded the same actual legal rights, it isn't unreasonable to reserve the term marriage for straight couples.  It's the rights that gays want rather than the title.

TheManOnTheStreet



Whether or not it's actually called marriage isn't important from a utilitarian perspective.


This bit of my last post seems to have been misinterpreted somewhat, so I should clarify.  I mean that as long as gay couples are afforded the same actual legal rights, it isn't unreasonable to reserve the term marriage for straight couples.  It's the rights that gays want rather than the title.


Then we are in agreement Laz.  At least on that point.

TMOTS
The Man On The Street is on the street for a reason.......
_________________________________
It's not illegal to be male.....yet.

angryharry

I just couldn't resist! ...

...

It seems to me that if, for example, two gay people who happen to live together can avail themselves of various legal advantages (e.g. via the tax system etc) then why cannot two friends who are not gay have such advantages? This difference in treatment cannot be right - especially for old people.

And, surely, the notion that the intimate sexual activities of couples should have any significant bearing on their legal status in this particular situation is ridiculous - and grossly unfair. Further, it will clearly lead in the future to people pretending to be gay simply in order to recoup the rewards - which will, of course, then lead to government snoopers checking out some very personal details.

And then there is the issue of single people - and people who simply live alone. Surely, life for them is much tougher. For example, it is much more expensive to live alone than to share living expenses with a partner. As such, why should single people not also receive the various privileges that gay couples seek for themselves? Single people are surely more in need of these privileges than are couples?

And, once again, this is especially true for old people.

And I simply cannot believe that the vast majority of people are going to sit back and continue to accept that heterosexuals who live together and, thence, those who are single, should be disadvantaged compared to gay couples.

Furthermore, the special status and privileges that were traditionally accorded to heterosexual couples who were married were designed to help them with the maintenance of family bonds (inheritance laws etc) and with the extra financial burdens incurred when bringing up children. And the introduction of 'marriage' for gay couples is, clearly, just one more step in the direction of destroying this particularly special situation - i.e. it is part and parcel of the treacherous pathway designed to break down traditional families.

And if, eventually, as a result of political pressure - which I am sure will come - we all end up being entitled to receive various special privileges for our situations vis-a-vis our partners - or lack thereof - then there is no real advantage to be gained for anyone - except, of course, for the government - which gets to exert even finer control over people's intimate relationships - e.g. through the tax system.

In other words, 'gay marriage' is a step in the wrong direction on many fronts. And it can only lead to increasing resentment - much of which will be justified, in my view.

And this is bound to be especially true from the point of view of many men who are MRAs - for obvious reasons; the most important of which, I suppose, is the breaking down of traditional families and, hence, the breaking down of men's positions and, hence, their security within those families.

In other words, 'gay marriage' is yet another blow to what many heterosexual men hold close to their hearts.

And, of course, as we move forward toward the situation wherein special status is given to all couples - which I am sure will happen eventually, unless we go back to supporting traditional marriage alone - then this will be yet another area wherein women - who live longer than men - will manage to suck yet more significant resources away from men simply by living together in their old age. 

And we can't have that! They are already taking far too big a portion of the pie!

...

Best wishes everyone.

Harry
ttp://www.angryharry.com ... the only site in the entire world with the aforementioned domain address

CaptDMO

AH!
Long time...!

Mr. X

I agree too about the friends aspect of the marriage debate. I had a friend a while back who was stricken with lung cancer. Both of us had shitty jobs but I was employed with a large company that had good medical benefits. I would have signed him up instantly if I could, but I couldn't. If gay marriage had been legalized back then I would have flat out lied, pretended to be gay just to get him medical coverage. Luckily he was able to take advantage of some vet benefits then he got married and his wife took care of him till he died.

But if we chuck all the rules of marriage out then why does love have to be part of it. Why can't two old guys like Angry Harry proposed simply cohabitate and share expenses and get tax breaks as dependants on one another?
Feminists - "Verbally beating men like dumb animals or ignoring them is all we know and its not working."

typhonblue


I agree too about the friends aspect of the marriage debate. I had a friend a while back who was stricken with lung cancer. Both of us had shitty jobs but I was employed with a large company that had good medical benefits. I would have signed him up instantly if I could, but I couldn't. If gay marriage had been legalized back then I would have flat out lied, pretended to be gay just to get him medical coverage. Luckily he was able to take advantage of some vet benefits then he got married and his wife took care of him till he died.

But if we chuck all the rules of marriage out then why does love have to be part of it. Why can't two old guys like Angry Harry proposed simply cohabitate and share expenses and get tax breaks as dependants on one another?


There are other societies that celebrate same-sex relationships (while ignoring or leaving unstated any possible sexual behavior--that's the business of the people in the relationship and no one else) the way we celebrate marriage.

I don't think gay marriage is anti-male. Even if it's anti-marriage, I don't think it's anti-male. If gay-marriage kills straight-marriage dead (including cohabitation), I'm sure men will only benefit in this cultural climate.

Mr. X



I agree too about the friends aspect of the marriage debate. I had a friend a while back who was stricken with lung cancer. Both of us had shitty jobs but I was employed with a large company that had good medical benefits. I would have signed him up instantly if I could, but I couldn't. If gay marriage had been legalized back then I would have flat out lied, pretended to be gay just to get him medical coverage. Luckily he was able to take advantage of some vet benefits then he got married and his wife took care of him till he died.

But if we chuck all the rules of marriage out then why does love have to be part of it. Why can't two old guys like Angry Harry proposed simply cohabitate and share expenses and get tax breaks as dependants on one another?


There are other societies that celebrate same-sex relationships (while ignoring or leaving unstated any possible sexual behavior--that's the business of the people in the relationship and no one else) the way we celebrate marriage.

I don't think gay marriage is anti-male. Even if it's anti-marriage, I don't think it's anti-male. If gay-marriage kills straight-marriage dead (including cohabitation), I'm sure men will only benefit in this cultural climate.



Well I'm just saying lets let anyone form a contract and union, not just straights and gays. Maybe a group of 5 people or just two friends. Why does love have to be a part of it.
Feminists - "Verbally beating men like dumb animals or ignoring them is all we know and its not working."

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