Feminism causing a rise in Homosexuality?

Started by Garak, Oct 05, 2007, 11:23 AM

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Garak

Oct 05, 2007, 11:23 AM Last Edit: Oct 05, 2007, 11:25 AM by Pentium 4
I know that many here support homosexuals but I think homosexuality is a bedmate of feminism and MRA's should recognize this enemy for what it is.

I found a quote that makes perfect sense to me and I am putting it here for everyone to read, it suggests that feminism is causing a rise in homosexuality.

Of course, if feminism is causing a rise in homosexuality then there is no question as to the two being linked and no question as to why feminism is so supportive of it.

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In the name of justice, feminists, men and women alike, have demanded and received equal rights and equal opportunities for women in virtually all realms. As a consequence, the important virtues of manhood and womanhood are being cast aside, replaced by unisex or androgyny. Mothers are urged to counter the natural masculinity of their little boys by teaching them to be more like girls, and to counter the natural femininity of their little girls by teaching them to be more like boys. Consequently, men are becoming more effeminate and women are becoming more masculine. And people are more confused than ever before about what it means to be a man or a woman, a husband or a wife, a father or a mother. Hence, homosexuality is growing like a plague.


So anyway, your thoughts?
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Lazurite

I would say that the quote draws an unfounded correlation between masculine behavior and being attracted to women, and between feminine behavior and being attracted to men.  It also assumes a causative relationship between behavior and attraction, that is, that if someone acts gay, they will be so.  In my personal experience, the correlation is weak at best, as I've met at least as many exceptions to the expected stereotypes as people who lived up to them.  I would also point out that among gays, its a recognized phenomenon that someone who has just come out will often adopt extremely feminine behavior for a time before returning to something close to their original behavior.  This suggests that feminine gay men are a result of them attempting to live up to society's expectation that a gay man isn't manly, not that feminine behavior causes homosexuality.

Garak


I would say that the quote draws an unfounded correlation between masculine behavior and being attracted to women, and between feminine behavior and being attracted to men.  It also assumes a causative relationship between behavior and attraction, that is, that if someone acts gay, they will be so.  In my personal experience, the correlation is weak at best, as I've met at least as many exceptions to the expected stereotypes as people who lived up to them.  I would also point out that among gays, its a recognized phenomenon that someone who has just come out will often adopt extremely feminine behavior for a time before returning to something close to their original behavior.  This suggests that feminine gay men are a result of them attempting to live up to society's expectation that a gay man isn't manly, not that feminine behavior causes homosexuality.


So you don't believe that feminisms efforts to turn boys into girls and girls into boys and thereby confusing everyone makes homosexuality more prevelent?
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Lazurite



I would say that the quote draws an unfounded correlation between masculine behavior and being attracted to women, and between feminine behavior and being attracted to men.  It also assumes a causative relationship between behavior and attraction, that is, that if someone acts gay, they will be so.  In my personal experience, the correlation is weak at best, as I've met at least as many exceptions to the expected stereotypes as people who lived up to them.  I would also point out that among gays, its a recognized phenomenon that someone who has just come out will often adopt extremely feminine behavior for a time before returning to something close to their original behavior.  This suggests that feminine gay men are a result of them attempting to live up to society's expectation that a gay man isn't manly, not that feminine behavior causes homosexuality.


So you don't believe that feminisms efforts to turn boys into girls and girls into boys and thereby confusing everyone makes homosexuality more prevelent?


Not at all.  It forces people to act against their natural gender, which traps everyone in the sort of emotional torture transgendered people go through, yes.  But as far as making homosexuality more prevalent, no, I don't believe it does, as I don't believe that attraction to men or women has anything directly to do with one's behavior otherwise.

Garak




I would say that the quote draws an unfounded correlation between masculine behavior and being attracted to women, and between feminine behavior and being attracted to men.  It also assumes a causative relationship between behavior and attraction, that is, that if someone acts gay, they will be so.  In my personal experience, the correlation is weak at best, as I've met at least as many exceptions to the expected stereotypes as people who lived up to them.  I would also point out that among gays, its a recognized phenomenon that someone who has just come out will often adopt extremely feminine behavior for a time before returning to something close to their original behavior.  This suggests that feminine gay men are a result of them attempting to live up to society's expectation that a gay man isn't manly, not that feminine behavior causes homosexuality.


So you don't believe that feminisms efforts to turn boys into girls and girls into boys and thereby confusing everyone makes homosexuality more prevelent?


Not at all.  It forces people to act against their natural gender, which traps everyone in the sort of emotional torture transgendered people go through, yes.  But as far as making homosexuality more prevalent, no, I don't believe it does, as I don't believe that attraction to men or women has anything directly to do with one's behavior otherwise.


Uh huh, so you agree that it confuses both men and women, boys and girls and that they act against their natural gender....but yet you don't see how homosexuality can be a result of this??

I guess we will have to disagree, I am not seeing the same disconnect that you are.
I will stop staring at your boobs when you stop staring at my paycheck!

typhonblue


Uh huh, so you agree that it confuses both men and women, boys and girls and that they act against their natural gender....but yet you don't see how homosexuality can be a result of this??

I guess we will have to disagree, I am not seeing the same disconnect that you are.


You believe homosexuality is the result of non-gender normative behavior. Lazurite doesn't. (And for the record, I don't either.)

In fact the west probably has the lowest rate of homosexual behavior in men of any culture on Earth. Feminism has done a lot of things, but increasing sex between men is not one of them. The Gay Rights movement has made gay men more _visible_ but reduced the amount of sex between men because men who otherwise would have seen their identities as fathers and husbands as more important then their sexual behavior with men(and not necessarily in conflict), have had to decide to abandon one or the other, usually their sexual behavior with other men.

Older gay men have observed this. Even as the profile of gay rights has increased, the amount of men participating in sex with other men has decreased.

Garak

#6
Oct 05, 2007, 12:45 PM Last Edit: Oct 05, 2007, 12:47 PM by Pentium 4


Uh huh, so you agree that it confuses both men and women, boys and girls and that they act against their natural gender....but yet you don't see how homosexuality can be a result of this??

I guess we will have to disagree, I am not seeing the same disconnect that you are.


You believe homosexuality is the result of non-gender normative behavior. Lazurite doesn't. (And for the record, I don't either.)

In fact the west probably has the lowest rate of homosexual behavior in men of any culture on Earth. Feminism has done a lot of things, but increasing sex between men is not one of them. The Gay Rights movement has made gay men more _visible_ but reduced the amount of sex between men because men who otherwise would have seen their identities as fathers and husbands as more important then their sexual behavior with men(and not necessarily in conflict), have had to decide to abandon one or the other, usually their sexual behavior with other men.

Older gay men have observed this. Even as the profile of gay rights has increased, the amount of men participating in sex with other men has decreased.


Well, I can't take that the west has the lowest rate of homosexual behavior at face value. Surely you have some proof of this?

Also, isn't the real question: Has homosexuality risen with the rise of feminism (or feminisms support of it)?

You also haven't told me why you think that non-gender normative behavior (and teachings) do NOT cause a rise in homosexuality?

It is like this, neither men nor women know how to act these days in regards to the opposite sex. You don't think this makes any difference in regards to sexual preference?

How can anyone claim that man-hating lesbians are not directly affected by the teachings of feminism?
I will stop staring at your boobs when you stop staring at my paycheck!

Mr. X

I think this is indicative of the US false dichotomy about homosexuality. If you're not a raging man you're gay. If you don't 100% support women you're gay. If you care about a man you're gay. I think that's a horrible president to set.

Kind of like Ireland in the old days. If you said you were Jewish someone would ask if you were catholic or protestant jewish.

I think what feminists are doing is trying to discourage male friendships by labelling any male friends as gay.
Feminists - "Verbally beating men like dumb animals or ignoring them is all we know and its not working."

Lazurite


It is like this, neither men nor women know how to act these days in regards to the opposite sex. You don't think this makes any difference in regards to sexual preference?

How can anyone claim that man-hating lesbians are not directly affected by the teachings of feminism?


Yes, they're affected by feminism.  Specifically, they're affected in that they're man-haters.

As for whether knowing how to act, as you put it, no, I don't think it does.  The fact is, there are plenty of gays out there who are indistinguishable from straight men until they tell you they're gay.  In truth, they're quite fashionable now.  You see a lot of requests for "straight-acting" and "no femmes" in gay personals.  Likewise, there are lots of straight men that'd fit right in with the cast of Queer Eye.

typhonblue



Well, I can't take that the west has the lowest rate of homosexual behavior at face value. Surely you have some proof of this?

Also, isn't the real question: Has homosexuality risen with the rise of feminism (or feminisms support of it)?


Statistics on western culture put the number of men who have sex with men at 8-10%. I've found statistics on India, for example, that put the rate anywhere between 20-70%. India is one culture that does not devide men into gay/straight, but rather devides them between father/non-father.

This means that a man who has sex with other men in India sees that as less relevant to his identity then his role as husband and father.

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You also haven't told me why you think that non-gender normative behavior (and teachings) do NOT cause a rise in homosexuality?


Because sex between men is not necessarily non-gender normative behavior. In our culture we see it as such, but it isn't an absolute. In fact the number of people alive today who draw the 'manhood' line between gay/not gay is probably less then 20% of the entire population of the world.

Most other cultures draw it elsewhere. Such as India. Or some Latin cultures. Or Muslims.

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It is like this, neither men nor women know how to act these days in regards to the opposite sex. You don't think this makes any difference in regards to sexual preference?


I think that our society's belief that manhood is predicated on sexual behavior with women(and not with other men) would result in LESS homosexual behavior, not more.

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How can anyone claim that man-hating lesbians are not directly affected by the teachings of feminism?


Lesbians are another kettle of fish.

Garak



It is like this, neither men nor women know how to act these days in regards to the opposite sex. You don't think this makes any difference in regards to sexual preference?

How can anyone claim that man-hating lesbians are not directly affected by the teachings of feminism?


Yes, they're affected by feminism.  Specifically, they're affected in that they're man-haters.

As for whether knowing how to act, as you put it, no, I don't think it does.  The fact is, there are plenty of gays out there who are indistinguishable from straight men until they tell you they're gay.  In truth, they're quite fashionable now.  You see a lot of requests for "straight-acting" and "no femmes" in gay personals.  Likewise, there are lots of straight men that'd fit right in with the cast of Queer Eye.


So, being gay is quite fashionable now?

Why do you suppose that is? Who promoted "coming out of the closet" and on what basis? The whole "equality" basis perhaps?

Hell, I have even known men to make comments about wishing they were gay after getting screwed by chivalrous courts.
I will stop staring at your boobs when you stop staring at my paycheck!

Garak

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Statistics on western culture put the number of men who have sex with men at 8-10%. I've found statistics on India, for example, that put the rate anywhere between 20-70%. India is one culture that does not devide men into gay/straight, but rather devides them between father/non-father.

This means that a man who has sex with other men in India sees that as less relevant to his identity then his role as husband and father.


Well, I guess the stats wouldn't really be compatible if judged on differing terms? However, a link would be good.

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Because sex between men is not necessarily non-gender normative behavior. In our culture we see it as such, but it isn't an absolute. In fact the number of people alive today who draw the 'manhood' line between gay/not gay is probably less then 20% of the entire population of the world.

Most other cultures draw it elsewhere. Such as India. Or some Latin cultures. Or Muslims.


Ah yes, so homosexuality is REALLY just another evil social construct from the patriarchy who think reproduction is healthy for society. THOSE BASTARDS!

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I think that our society's belief that manhood is predicated on sexual behavior with women(and not with other men) would result in LESS homosexual behavior, not more.


So, open homosexuality (like in SF) is a good thing then?

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Lesbians are another kettle of fish.


That you chose not to dive into because most clearly are affected by feminist teachings.
I will stop staring at your boobs when you stop staring at my paycheck!

typhonblue


Yes, they're affected by feminism.  Specifically, they're affected in that they're man-haters.

As for whether knowing how to act, as you put it, no, I don't think it does.  The fact is, there are plenty of gays out there who are indistinguishable from straight men until they tell you they're gay.  In truth, they're quite fashionable now.  You see a lot of requests for "straight-acting" and "no femmes" in gay personals.  Likewise, there are lots of straight men that'd fit right in with the cast of Queer Eye.


So, being gay is quite fashionable now?[/quote]

No. He's saying that most gay men dislike feminine men. They desire, and want to be masculine.

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Why do you suppose that is? Who promoted "coming out of the closet" and on what basis? The whole "equality" basis perhaps?


Stonewall was a violent uprising of feminine gay men against police intrusion. That's what started it and it had nothing to do with feminism.

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Hell, I have even known men to make comments about wishing they were gay after getting screwed by chivalrous courts.


But this is entirely different then the idea that feminism creates a non-gender normative society in which homosexuality flourishes.

In fact I would question the idea that feminism doesn't engage in distinguishing between men and women. Feminism is very much about seeing men as being more agressive, violent and selfish then women. It only denies that men have positive qualities that women don't have, not that men have negative qualities that women don't have.

typhonblue


Quote
Statistics on western culture put the number of men who have sex with men at 8-10%. I've found statistics on India, for example, that put the rate anywhere between 20-70%. India is one culture that does not devide men into gay/straight, but rather devides them between father/non-father.

This means that a man who has sex with other men in India sees that as less relevant to his identity then his role as husband and father.


Well, I guess the stats wouldn't really be compatible if judged on differing terms? However, a link would be good.


Here's one:

http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/MeetingAbstracts/102201610.html


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Because sex between men is not necessarily non-gender normative behavior. In our culture we see it as such, but it isn't an absolute. In fact the number of people alive today who draw the 'manhood' line between gay/not gay is probably less then 20% of the entire population of the world.

Most other cultures draw it elsewhere. Such as India. Or some Latin cultures. Or Muslims.


Ah yes, so homosexuality is REALLY just another evil social construct from the patriarchy who think reproduction is healthy for society. THOSE BASTARDS! [/quote]

Most societies that don't think homosexual behavior in men is relevant to where the manhood line is drawn are very patriarchal.

Are you telling me, that I think India is more feminist then the US? Or any of the other cultures I named?

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Quote
I think that our society's belief that manhood is predicated on sexual behavior with women(and not with other men) would result in LESS homosexual behavior, not more.


So, open homosexuality (like in SF) is a good thing then?


Depends on the effect you desire.

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Lesbians are another kettle of fish.


That you chose not to dive into because most clearly are affected by feminist teachings.


Because I recognize that, ideologically and socially, there is a vast divide between lesbians and gay men. Lesbians only show up at gay male events when it is politically expedient for them to do so. Otherwise, many lesbians consider gay men to be every bit as much a part of the 'patriarchy' as straight men.

Garak

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No. He's saying that most gay men dislike feminine men. They desire, and want to be masculine.


Yes, that they are totally confused...how did they become confused?

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Stonewall was a violent uprising of feminine gay men against police intrusion. That's what started it and it had nothing to do with feminism.


Yeah and that whole "equality for homosexuals" argument that mirrored feminism and is defended by feminists (as it destroys families and protects lesbians) is irrelevent?

How many feminists organizations do you see fighting against gay rights (and demonstrations like in SF)?

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But this is entirely different then the idea that feminism creates a non-gender normative society in which homosexuality flourishes.


Yes of course it is different and not meant to be taken as proof of my argument. None of these men turned gay but what they were saying is that if they were gay...they would not have to deal with women and their guardians...the biased courts. Now, does that have anything to do with feminism?

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In fact I would question the idea that feminism doesn't engage in distinguishing between men and women. Feminism is very much about seeing men as being more agressive, violent and selfish then women. It only denies that men have positive qualities that women don't have, not that men have negative qualities that women don't have.


Funny thing about feminism is it's inconsistency.

Yes, feminism does claim that men have negative qualities women don't have...the whole DV industry is all about that testosterone (sp?) factor.

One minute we are all equal and gender is nothing more than a social construct created by the evil patriarchy. The next man = bad, woman = good. See how that is inconsistent?

In the end though, feminism is all about getting what it wants even if it has to change it's story over and over again.
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