stop blocking the threads

[julie]

Biscuit Queen, on my life, I am not this other person. Look to who I am.

http://menz.org.nz/ this is my group. I know all these guys personally. Look around. You will get to know my madness.

Plus ... http://singleparents.org.nz/

And plus I am sure moderators can tell which country a poster comes from.


Let me share reality with you.

When there are 2 parents in a home, the parents each have another adult to bounce things off on.

Even before feminism mothers abused children. But you may wonder why mothers weren't held accountable as a man?

Let's look at that.

Women were the carers of children and men were working. What did you think happened to a man that took his frustration out on machinery? Well, I will tell you what I think would have happened. Others would have looked at the man and considered whether he was a long time user of the equipment. After all you don't let things get to you when you have been on the job for a long time. So, I reckon men would laugh at a new guy losing his temper over machinery as if they had been there and done it before themselves.

The same goes for being a parent. And mothers were the parent mostly. They (and I am telling you what women over 60 tell me, not books) would be responsible for the schooling and the day to day care. They bathed the children and fed the children prior to daddy coming home. In fact they dressed themselves nicely for him and made the children give daddy a hug when he came home and made them give daddy space to rest after work. And they put the children to bed early to give mummy and daddy time together.

Me, well, my bedtime was between 6pm and 7pm. And I got to read to stay awake. It was not easy in summer when the other children were out playing but now kids stay up till 10pm or even later.

But to my point.  I have heard women tell me how they would talk to their husbands about the day they had with their children.  And because daddy could see it from an outside point of view, he could give advice. And sometimes he would say to the wife, "You should have known better. Next time you know".

But this is not our reality anymore. There is no such time anymore. And single parents don't have that bounce. Not even through feminism which is supposed to be for them.

Now, I need to stop giving such long comments. Yes and no answers should suffice. And with maybe one sentence or maybe two. But not what I am doing. You know all this.

[The Biscuit Queen]

Alright, I believe you. I just wanted a straight answer is all. When people start to refuse to answer it is annoying and suspicious, and I have had enough of people not answering questions.

As to the rest, that all sounds correct. I have long held that a major flaw in thinking that single parents can do as well as married ones is just what you described-perspective.  It is hard enough with two parents. I really have a hard time following what this has to do with the thread, which thanks to folded has really not had a true focus from the start.

Please stop acting like I am unable to see reality. I have two sons and have been married 13 years, and have much experience including being a single mom for a few years. So assuming I have no perspective or experience is not a good way to have me pay attention to your posts. I have given you absolutely no indication I am unable to see reality.

[julie]

Alright, I believe you. I just wanted a straight answer is all. When people start to refuse to answer it is annoying and suspicious, and I have had enough of people not answering questions.

As to the rest, that all sounds correct. I have long held that a major flaw in thinking that single parents can do as well as married ones is just what you described-perspective.  It is hard enough with two parents. I really have a hard time following what this has to do with the thread, which thanks to folded has really not had a true focus from the start.

Please stop acting like I am unable to see reality. I have two sons and have been married 13 years, and have much experience including being a single mom for a few years. So assuming I have no perspective or experience is not a good way to have me pay attention to your posts. I have given you absolutely no indication I am unable to see reality.

From now on I will treat you as a woman who understands the big picture. I did just want to use the site to dump crap on and I had sort of hoped to make enemies. It just seemed a logical (OK, illogical) solution to my problem of having to make  commitment.

Hey, but you might know that the MAD people in society sometimes get what they want. lol

I guess life was too comfortable for me and others (many others) that a revolution just seems so radical.

I will try and be easier to understand from now on.

[The Biscuit Queen]

I will try and be easier to understand from now on.

You are off to a good start with that post.

From now on I will treat you as a woman who understands the big picture. I did just want to use the site to dump crap on and I had sort of hoped to make enemies. It just seemed a logical (OK, illogical) solution to my problem of having to make  commitment.

SO why did you want to make enemies? I can understand the dumping on bent, as I occasionally will hit pandagon or feminista to argue. But why do you want us to hate you?

I guess life was too comfortable for me and others (many others) that a revolution just seems so radical.

Yes, as women we do have it quite comfortable, and many women I know do not want things to change. I can understand that, no one wants to give up advantages. However, if you believe in true equality, and if you have men in your life you love (I have my husband, sons, and many family members and friends who are good men) you can see that things need to change, even if it means some discomfort.

It is just the right thing to do.

What I admire about the men's movement is that it is fair to my metric, which comes from being a parent and having done child care for many years. If one group got to pick the rules for each group and how things were divied up, would they be willing to let the other group pick which side they got?  The feminists would not-they would never take on 93% workplace death rate, 80% suicide rate, no reproductive choices, etc that men now deal with and let men have all the perks women now enjoy such as longer life, 80% custody rate in divorce, huge advantage in public monies for their safety and medical research, etc.

The men's movement, by and large, seek real equitable solutions such as 50/50 joint custody, parity in spending for education, medical research,  selective service, etc. I can see most of the MRAs, having gotten what they fought for, being willing to trade places with women. 

[julie]

SO why did you want to make enemies? I can understand the dumping on bent, as I occasionally will hit pandagon or feminista to argue. But why do you want us to hate you?

Because I stepped out into the real world. I took what the guys said to the real world.

I didn't know that I was unusual. I didn't know that I was different. I didn't know how rare it was for women to understand.

And I made a huge impact. My country is small. I received so many phone calls. I received donations, I received support, I received referrals from other groups. I received from the other side also. I was being put on a pedestal from both sides. From major groups. And I received lots of e-mails and calls from women who were hurting from men and even from men just wanting to show me I was wrong.

I spoke to a man who had been in this a long time and whose wife is a major player and was in the 80's against false rape allegations and who was thrown off from the National board. RADAR also used her studies and voice against the UN. He said he was afraid that this would happen to me.

The council made a report saying my group was one to support and that we were the only group in the area (we are a major area) standing for men's rights. This was a major report which included the police and heaps more.

Then a council representative told me that I would get all the support I needed if I would not go anti feminism and that the doors would shut fast in my face if I did. There is another group who is for men's rights that are fighting the political involvement and the CEO was thrown out of the left wing political party for saying something to a journalist against the feminisation of politics. They think I am... well, you know, they are guys, ... so they say I am OK. 

What would you do if you were in my shoes? A no body who just wanted to make a little impact. Wouldn't you care but at the same time want to run away?

How can I deal with my conscience when I know I have the opportunity to make a difference? Maybe if the MRM hates me I get a pass out of this. After all if they hate me I don't have to care.

OK, I know that is silly. BTW, thanx for asking.

I guess life was too comfortable for me and others (many others) that a revolution just seems so radical.

Yes, as women we do have it quite comfortable, and many women I know do not want things to change. I can understand that, no one wants to give up advantages. However, if you believe in true equality, and if you have men in your life you love (I have my husband, sons, and many family members and friends who are good men) you can see that things need to change, even if it means some discomfort.

Women where I come from don't have it comfortable . Most my age and even in their 50's are sick. Some even in their 60's. They are unhappy. you see, we are a smaller area so we are affected more. The women from the war think life is great were I live. They and immigrants compare NZ to previous country. They think that better is good enough. They are stupid.

The men's movement, by and large, seek real equitable solutions such as 50/50 joint custody, parity in spending for education, medical research,  selective service, etc. I can see most of the MRAs, having gotten what they fought for, being willing to trade places with women. 

Don't fool yourself. The men's movement has no backbone. It is no creation of a better picture.  It is only a side that pulls down the other side.

Think about it. When the left wing is in power what does the right wing do? It pulls down the left wing.

And when the right wing is in power what does the left wing do? Pull down the right wing.

The men's movement is not in power yet. We have no idea what they will do. In my country I had joined the men's political party but quit because they stand for nothing. They only ride on the back of an anti movement. So what will happen when the anti movement wins? What will they do?

[Mr. X]

Don't fool yourself. The men's movement has no backbone. It is no creation of a better picture.  It is only a side that pulls down the other side.

Think about it. When the left wing is in power what does the right wing do? It pulls down the left wing.

And when the right wing is in power what does the left wing do? Pull down the right wing.

The men's movement is not in power yet. We have no idea what they will do. In my country I had joined the men's political party but quit because they stand for nothing. They only ride on the back of an anti movement. So what will happen when the anti movement wins? What will they do?

MRAs most certainly stand for something. And no its not just some "anti" movement. Its an awakening. Its convincing other men that, as women gained freedom from traditional roles that were shackles, so we can gain freedom. If women think being a wife and mommy is some opprssive role with no choices then why can't men see that working the same crappy job for 40 years is also oppression. Why do we men have to play the part in a play that closed a long time ago.

Also MRAs do have to take an anti-stand against someone who is activily being bigotted toward men. Maybe now men are just reacting to bad things, wish them to change then will go back to their lives again. That is not an un-noble thing. If invaded, farmers beat their plows into swords, rise up then return to farm. I'd prefer that movement to one that continues to fight when the fight is over.

If MRAs are just an anti-movement, what are feminists? The fight is over. Its done. Stick a fork in it. But feminists continue playing women-firsters. That to me is more of a destructive movement than  men who rise up, fight then go back to their lives when the job is done.

[julie]

Don't fool yourself. The men's movement has no backbone. It is no creation of a better picture.  It is only a side that pulls down the other side.

Think about it. When the left wing is in power what does the right wing do? It pulls down the left wing.

And when the right wing is in power what does the left wing do? Pull down the right wing.

The men's movement is not in power yet. We have no idea what they will do. In my country I had joined the men's political party but quit because they stand for nothing. They only ride on the back of an anti movement. So what will happen when the anti movement wins? What will they do?

MRAs most certainly stand for something. And no its not just some "anti" movement. Its an awakening. Its convincing other men that, as women gained freedom from traditional roles that were shackles, so we can gain freedom. If women think being a wife and mommy is some opprssive role with no choices then why can't men see that working the same crappy job for 40 years is also oppression. Why do we men have to play the part in a play that closed a long time ago.

That is a part of feminism. A part of socialism. That is what you will get if you go along with the flow. Less hours and more time with your family.

Did you not know that it was the women's movement that made men and women work for 40 hours. Before then if was far more hours just like the Chinese.

Also MRAs do have to take an anti-stand against someone who is activily being bigotted toward men. Maybe now men are just reacting to bad things, wish them to change then will go back to their lives again. That is not an un-noble thing. If invaded, farmers beat their plows into swords, rise up then return to farm. I'd prefer that movement to one that continues to fight when the fight is over.

What has the black/brown movement in USA done? Sure they pulled down the white for ages. But then they realised they needed to build there own empire.

If MRAs are just an anti-movement, what are feminists? The fight is over. Its done. Stick a fork in it. But feminists continue playing women-firsters. That to me is more of a destructive movement than  men who rise up, fight then go back to their lives when the job is done.

Think about it. Did feminist actually protest against males or did they protest pro women?

OK, so they are not perfect. But you need the radicals in any movement. Without the radicals you don't get the moderators. It will be the moderators who will come out on top. Men can't be cashing in as radical feminists did. The circumstances today will not accept it.

You are not going to get people idolising women hate books or attending women hating seminars. They are not yet in that position.

I know and most radical men that I know; know (hope that makes sense) that we are never going to get recognition for our work. It won't be us that goes into the history books.

Don't you be fooled that men and women don't know that this is a day to cash in on men's issues.

[Factory]

This is something I think is often misunderstood.  The men's rights movement isn't really a movement at all.  It's a reaction.  We are very reactionary, and we are definitely more interested in correcting injustice than we are in exploring our inner selves (aside from an inordinate interest in dating advice).  This is not a bad thing, since who do you "react" to once you attain your goals?  This defacto abolishment of the movement at the end of it's useful life, this "planned obsolescence" if you will, should reassure rather than alarm.

[julie]

This is something I think is often misunderstood.  The men's rights movement isn't really a movement at all.  It's a reaction.  We are very reactionary, and we are definitely more interested in correcting injustice than we are in exploring our inner selves (aside from an inordinate interest in dating advice).  This is not a bad thing, since who do you "react" to once you attain your goals?  This defacto abolishment of the movement at the end of it's useful life, this "planned obsolescence" if you will, should reassure rather than alarm.

I think both sexes react to things. And that is a good thing really.

And dating advice is also very important. Especially when you find yourself back out there after a long stretch of marriage.

Gee, long stretch  sounds like a prison sentence. lol

[The Biscuit Queen]

So you were a long time men's rights activist? And you found what? When you got into the mechanisms that you were put into an impossible position?

Why would we hate you for trying? If you gave it a good effort, and you did what you could, then you have nothing to be ashamed of. Even if you could have done more, we can always do more, all of us. We could do more until we had nothing else in our lives, and there still would be more to do. The fact you did something, anything, that 99.9% of women out there  would not have even thought to do says something about you. 



As for the rest, and this will be a little rambly....

I never saw feminism with real, tangible goals.

They would say "equal pay for equal work" but then would not build a true metric to measure this, and rejected the data when a metric clearly shows they have achieved this.

They would say "end violence against women" even though that is impossible. There will always be violence in this world, and all things considered they are safer than men and always have been. This goal is as ethereal as "world peace".

They go on and on about "choice", but again, they already have more choices than anyone in the history of the world, man or woman. No other class of people now or in the past has as many options as western women. Yet still they trumpet that cause.

Double standards abound in feminism, which are not found in the MRM. The MRM has very clear goals, in part due to feminism. Feminism set standards, both of what could be and what to avoid. We now want equal spending for medical research, DV shelters, gender specific education, etc. These have all been established by feminism, so we want the same consideration. We also want the same consideration in the law- the same choices, freedoms, and chances for men to parent their kids.

In a way we have feminism to thank. They brought these issues to the front, gave men something to react to, and broke them from being forever content to continue sacrificing themselves. Of course, before feminism, women were standing right along side men doing the same thing, so it is hard to pin down whether a MRM would have been needed without feminism.

[Tigerman]

That was a very eloquent synopsis of feminism and how it compares with the MRM. It doesn't take a degree in 'rocket science' to figure feminism out and what it is really up to and about - just an honest heart and the clarity that brings to thought is sufficient. 

[Mr. X]

That is a part of feminism. A part of socialism. That is what you will get if you go along with the flow. Less hours and more time with your family.

Did you not know that it was the women's movement that made men and women work for 40 hours. Before then if was far more hours just like the Chinese.

No that is a false dichotomy. I do not advocate socialism when I advocate that men do not have to be a bread winner and work crappy jobs to support families. That's not their "job" anymore. I advocate that maybe a man can take a less paying, more rewarding job than take a piss job that pays more because he had to get married and ahd to take care of kids like a good man should.

Men are 5 times more likely to work 2 jobs and routinely work 60 to 80 hour weeks, usually in jobs they hate because they are obligated by society to provide for a family. Yes feminism broke to social rules for women so they went out and got jobs but men's hours haven't decreased.

What has the black/brown movement in USA done? Sure they pulled down the white for ages. But then they realised they needed to build there own empire.

yes why can't men redefine themselves and women cannot have a say in that? Why do women get to have a say in how we men are redefined? One of the things men are resisting is exactly this redefinition by women to suit women's purposes. If men wish to change they should change and women should have no say in it.

Think about it. Did feminist actually protest against males or did they protest pro women?

Both. In some cases pro-women meant stepping on men.

OK, so they are not perfect. But you need the radicals in any movement. Without the radicals you don't get the moderators. It will be the moderators who will come out on top. Men can't be cashing in as radical feminists did. The circumstances today will not accept it.

I don't see men even wanting to cash in like feminists did. I doubt most MRAs want to be men-firsters. They simply want the unfair laws changed and some of the unfair social rules to be recognized that work against men. For decades we hear about how everything hurts women yet the vast history of men working dangerous, shitty, boring and horrible jobs or the fact millions of us men die in wars to defend women is ignored. The vast majority of men never had it sweet either. I don't have a super model wife. Where's my patriarchy? The lie needs to be exposed.

You are not going to get people idolising women hate books or attending women hating seminars. They are not yet in that position.

If you think that is what MRAs want to become then you're lost. Yes there will be books and seminars calling women on the mat and exposing women as the not so angels they are. yes some will be nasty. But I really doubt men want to go down the same route and blame women for every worldly problem. They were on the other end of that stick and they know it doesn't work. There is a difference between being a firster and merely asking for fair consideration and treatment. And there is a difference between ripping on women and simply asking women to stop blaming men for everything.

I know and most radical men that I know; know (hope that makes sense) that we are never going to get recognition for our work. It won't be us that goes into the history books.

Don't you be fooled that men and women don't know that this is a day to cash in on men's issues.

History won't be ignored. We have a modern age of media now. every Stienem and Dowd will be recorded. Sad thing is, along with feminist accomplishments WILL COME the Steinems and Dowds. What's sad is those parts of history cannot be erased. Maybe what concerns you is modern feminism maybe described as a selfish Martha Burke demanding access to a snooty private golf club while women in other countries are being honor killed. Shouldn't that part of history ALSO be taught?

Don't be fooled either than men won't wake up and realize that if women can change, so can men.

[julie]

So you were a long time men's rights activist? And you found what? When you got into the mechanisms that you were put into an impossible position?

I have known about this for 2 years.

But I don't see things as the MRM does. I haven't got into the history unless it was a way to understand the present. And I asked and asked and asked question after question after question.

The Patriarchy had men and women being treated differently. Challenging the Patriarchy way brings forward the changes the MRM require and the changes the feminists require.

The thing is that men are missing in the decision making.

It is the Patriarchy that gives men higher sentences than women. It is the Patriarchy that stops men from seeing the doctor, it is the Patriarchy that stops men from equal parenting.

The MRM is divided  pushing both the Patriarchy and Matriarchy. I have heard that it has been for decades. And yet as we are all individuals and have individual relationships and homes we can act Patriarchy. We can have the man as the head of the house or we can have the woman as the head of the house of we can be equal.

I never saw feminism with real, tangible goals.

I am still out on a decision on this one.

Double standards abound in feminism, which are not found in the MRM.

I wonder if that is correct. I wonder whether the MRM has double standards also. I will give that some thought. 

The MRM has very clear goals, in part due to feminism. Feminism set standards, both of what could be and what to avoid. We now want equal spending for medical research, DV shelters, gender specific education, etc. These have all been established by feminism, so we want the same consideration. We also want the same consideration in the law- the same choices, freedoms, and chances for men to parent their kids.

Understandable.

In a way we have feminism to thank. They brought these issues to the front, gave men something to react to, and broke them from being forever content to continue sacrificing themselves. Of course, before feminism, women were standing right along side men doing the same thing, so it is hard to pin down whether a MRM would have been needed without feminism.

These are wise words. I agree with this. We will all find our way through. IMO

It is very unfortunate of the blood sacrifices that have been made for all this though. And the pain it has caused and the family break-down.

You are one amazing woman BC. And so down to earth.

[foldedintobeauty]

OK, is julie also foldedintobeauty?  If yes, why is she allowed to have two usernames. It is confusing.

you remind me of a third grade little girl always tattle-telling on people. what is the matter with you that you need to be so concerned with rules and shit? get some internet balls

[foldedintobeauty]

ok so anyway julie, damn, you write way too much for me to read right now, but you said something i've been wanting to say for the last few days now and haven't had a chance. the claim that women abuse children more than men would only be because women are usually the caregivers and it is a full-time job - no breaks, no naps, no downtime, no sleeping through the night. it's a full-time job 24/7 and for lower-income families, and single mother households it's even worse. so, maybe people should stop crying about women abusing children and start doing something to make their lives easier so they can be better fucking mothers. the end.