Stuff that maybe makes me believe in creation...

[Setaseba]

If physical constants were only slightly different in the universe, we wouldn't have life at all.  Everything just kind of fits together (just barely) so that a small window exists in which life is possible.  

But if that weren't the case, no one would be around to wonder why it ISN'T that way.

I've heard that one before but it's kind of silly. I mean, if the constants were slightly different and we were still here we'd still be saying <<If physical constants were only slightly different in the universe, we wouldn't have life at all.>>

[cunegund]

I'm not sure there's a small window for life either.  How do we know?  The extraordinary size of the universe makes it seem that life is possible from a probability standpoint.

Maybe life is popping into existence all over the place... it just can't survive except for a few places?

[Galt]

<<If I attempt to predict that outcome *before* I deal them... that would be virtually impossible. The odds being in the 1 out of billions.>>

This isn't before the fact, because life is the whole ballgame.  It's like the ace of spades - so if you lay out a billion cards and pick one, one of them HAS to come up, even with billion:1 odds.  But if you SAY that the ace of spades is going to come up - and it does - you get a free drink on the house.

[cunegund]

The chances of *something* happening are 100%?

Or am I misunderstanding you?

[Galt]

<<The chances of *something* happening are 100%?>>

The chances of picking a card out of a deck and coming up with SOME card are 100%.

The chances of naming a card (life, or ace of spades) and then actually picking that card out of a deck are 1:52.

If physical constants were even a little different (sorry I'll come up with more substantiation on that one someday), then life wouldn't exist.  Life is the ace of spades and it got drawn.

[Setaseba]

<<If I attempt to predict that outcome *before* I deal them... that would be virtually impossible. The odds being in the 1 out of billions.>>

This isn't before the fact, because life is the whole ballgame.  It's like the ace of spades - so if you lay out a billion cards and pick one, one of them HAS to come up, even with billion:1 odds.  But if you SAY that the ace of spades is going to come up - and it does - you get a free drink on the house.

The probability of dealing an ace of spades goes up dramatically depending on how many ace of spade's there are in the deck. If you define "life" as being us as exactly as we are then you might be right but life isn't that narrowly defined. Your metaphor is contrived.

[FEMINAZIHATEMARTYR]

Stuff that leads me to believe in creation; E=mc2

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa004&articleID=000F16C0-C84F-1FA2-884F83414B7F0000

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000AAB4F-7BC2-1C76-9B81809EC588EF21&catID=4

[Galt]

The card already got "named" because life is the whole ballgame.

[cunegund]

But you're deciding it's the ace of spades *after* it's been picked.  The meaning is lost when you do that isn't it?  



What if the Ace of Diamonds were picked instead?

We don't know what would have or could have happened.

Probably a bad analogy on my part... I'll try think of something else.

[Galt]

<<If you define "life" as being us as exactly as we are then you might be right but life isn't that narrowly defined. Your metaphor is contrived.>>

It's not that contrived.  There really is information on how crucial physical constants are to provide a universe in which life - ANY form of life - is possible.  I'm just not going to look it up, because I don't feel like it right now.

[Teddy_Roosevelt]

I think that what Galt is saying is that while the odds of picking the only ace of spades out of 1 billion cards is 1 in 1 billion, if all the cards are laid out there is 100% chance that the ace of spades is there.

I think the analogy is that the odds of life occurring may be 1 in a billion (or a hell of a lot more) because only at certain distances from certain sized stars will life (or at least life like we have) take shape. All those other planets out there that are just a little too close or a little too far from a star, or that are the right distance from a star but it's red giant or white dwarf or whatever, are all those other cards. We're the ace of spades, all the other planets are all the other cards.

With regard to oil, coal, natural gas, bananas, etc. etc. being useful only because we've used them, what about the uses for things that we know exist that haven't been determined yet? What about the things we still haven't discovered and their future uses? Are those things laid out for us to find eventually, or will we adapt ourselves to make use of them?

:popcorn:

[Galt]

<<I think that what Galt is saying is that while the odds of picking the only ace of spades out of 1 billion cards is 1 in 1 billion, if all the cards are laid out there is 100% chance that the ace of spades is there.>>

That's kind of my argument - except the exact opposite.  I was saying that if you NAME the card first, there are high odds against it.  What you said was more along the lines of Cunegund's argument.

[bluegrass]

Gallopagos is one of my favorite Vonnegut novels.  At the end nearly all of humanity is wiped out by an asteroid except for a small group of people on the Gallopagos Islands who become the new founders of the human race.  They evolve into fur covered semi-aquatic mammals with little intelligence.

Anybody else read it?

[Teddy_Roosevelt]

Gallopagos is one of my favorite Vonnegut novels.  At the end nearly all of humanity is wiped out by an asteroid except for a small group of people on the Gallopagos Islands who become the new founders of the human race.  They evolve into fur covered semi-aquatic mammals with little intelligence.

Anybody else read it?

Isn't Vonnegut pretty much a leftist?

[Galt]

<<Isn't Vonnegut pretty much a leftist?>>

Not really.  "Harrison Bergeron" really made fun of affirmative action.