Men's Rights Activists

Started by Amber, Dec 15, 2003, 03:27 PM

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Amber

One of my more recent articles called "Experience Means Baggage" sparked quite a thread on the mensnewsdaily.com forums.

Basically, they accused me of being a feminist who wants to "tell men what to do."  Well, I've noticed that among mens rights activists, like feminists, men do not want to be "told what to do."  They want to do whatever they want.  They are like little kids.

Anyway, one guy says he "went ballistic" over me.  My article specifically has the premise that marriage is a good thing.  BECAUSE of this, I state that going in and out of relationships before marriage and having lots of sex is a bad thing.  It doesn't lead to a good marriage.  That somehow makes me a feminists.  :?

Here is what it comes down to:  men's rights activists hate marriage.  They do not want to ever get married.  Their goal is NOT to clean up the mess known as divorce court.  They LIKE that being the way it is.  For them, it is an EXCUSE not to get married.

Their problem is not that I am a supposed feminist, a young person who doesn't know anything, or anything of the sort.  Their problem is that I advocated marriage.

Don't worry, men's rights activists.  I would never hold any of your feet to the fire as I would never be interested in dating any of you.  I can't think of a woman of self esteem who would.

The position that I advocated in my EMB piece is also a Christian belief.  It is something that the Bible has advocated for 2000 years.  Yet, somehow, my position is naive based on the ad hominem that I am young, therefore what I say has no truth at all.

Come on:  is the true nature of men's rights activism not being exposed?  What the fuck has to happen until your eyes are opened up?

I find it ridiculous in particular that they accuse me of being a feminist.  I mean ... COME ON, can't they at least provide a semi-intelligent critique of me.  It is the evidence of small minds.  They don't like what I am saying, so they need to pigeon hole me into something they hate - feminism.  Even though I don't fit that mold, and precisely because they can't hate me for any valid reason, they need to associate me with feminism, making it easier to hate me.

By all means, start a boycott at MND to get my columns off.  It doesn't really matter.  Within a year, I'll have bigger, better publications.  I'll still send my articles to Mike if he wants them.  I have a large fan base, including the very editor at MND, much to the MRA chagrin, I'm sure.  I'm not sure if you leftist twits realized it, but the site is a CONSERVATIVE site.  You know, CONSERVATIVES advocate things like MARRIAGE and morals and strong foreign policy, etc.  These are not things MRA favor.

I'm not sure how much exposing has to be done until people realize this movement is just a hate movement.  However, I am fully confident that most intelligent people can see that already, including most female and many male posters here.  This is all the time I am giving to the MRA from now on ... they are, for the most part, irrelevant.  

By the way is "JG" on MND "Galt"?
he men's movement is a hate movement.  

What feminism is to men; the men's rights movement is to women.

Men's rights activists blame misandry for all their problems in the same way that feminists blame the patriarchy.

The only thing men's rights activists are good at is abusing women.  

And you can quote me on that.  :D

Amber

Oh, one other thing, that piece called EMB has MASSIVE APPEAL to people under 30, as evidenced by the fact that people on this board under 30 all liked it.  Mike has said before he wants to attract the under 30 crowd, and a young person like me can do just that.
he men's movement is a hate movement.  

What feminism is to men; the men's rights movement is to women.

Men's rights activists blame misandry for all their problems in the same way that feminists blame the patriarchy.

The only thing men's rights activists are good at is abusing women.  

And you can quote me on that.  :D

Amber

Ok one other thing before I head off.  The MRA were all complaining that I am telling "men" what to do.  But my article EMB was mostly gender neutral.  It was aimed at men and women.  Yet for some reason, that gets twisted into evil female giving men all the responsiblity and women all the free ride ... :roll:  Also, logically, this kind of argument is aimed at WOMEN.  It is WOMEN who mostly have to say "no" to sex - to stop the hook up scene I so despise - WOMEN who have to say "no I'm not living with you if we aren't married" ... etc.  

Their arguments are so incredibly bogus.
he men's movement is a hate movement.  

What feminism is to men; the men's rights movement is to women.

Men's rights activists blame misandry for all their problems in the same way that feminists blame the patriarchy.

The only thing men's rights activists are good at is abusing women.  

And you can quote me on that.  :D

Sir Jessy of Anti

Quote from: "Amber"
One of my more recent articles called "Experience Means Baggage" sparked quite a thread on the mensnewsdaily.com forums.

Basically, they accused me of being a feminist who wants to "tell men what to do."  Well, I've noticed that among mens rights activists, like feminists, men do not want to be "told what to do."  They want to do whatever they want.  They are like little kids.

Anyway, one guy says he "went ballistic" over me.  My article specifically has the premise that marriage is a good thing.  BECAUSE of this, I state that going in and out of relationships before marriage and having lots of sex is a bad thing.  It doesn't lead to a good marriage.  That somehow makes me a feminists.  :?

Here is what it comes down to:  men's rights activists hate marriage.  They do not want to ever get married.  Their goal is NOT to clean up the mess known as divorce court.  They LIKE that being the way it is.  For them, it is an EXCUSE not to get married.


I don't think you should over-react to some guys on a BB.  Nor do I think you should label them typical of all men's rights activists.  That's just a generalization, an excuse for lazy thinking.

Quote


Their problem is not that I am a supposed feminist, a young person who doesn't know anything, or anything of the sort.  Their problem is that I advocated marriage.

Don't worry, men's rights activists.  I would never hold any of your feet to the fire as I would never be interested in dating any of you.  I can't think of a woman of self esteem who would.

The position that I advocated in my EMB piece is also a Christian belief.  It is something that the Bible has advocated for 2000 years.  Yet, somehow, my position is naive based on the ad hominem that I am young, therefore what I say has no truth at all.

Come on:  is the true nature of men's rights activism not being exposed?  What the fuck has to happen until your eyes are opened up?


Funny, you really should ask yourself that sometime.  What has to happen before you realize just how disenfranchised the law makes some men, and how their voice is an important aspect of overall HUMAN rights?

Quote

I find it ridiculous in particular that they accuse me of being a feminist.  I mean ... COME ON, can't they at least provide a semi-intelligent critique of me.  It is the evidence of small minds.  They don't like what I am saying, so they need to pigeon hole me into something they hate - feminism.  Even though I don't fit that mold, and precisely because they can't hate me for any valid reason, they need to associate me with feminism, making it easier to hate me.


Well, many of these men are disenfranchised, and thus angry at the current state of affairs.  It is unfortunate that they believe you to be a feminist; I do not.  However, women-firsters of all stripes exist including
traditionalists and feminists.

Quote

You'
By all means, start a boycott at MND to get my columns off.  It doesn't really matter.  Within a year, I'll have bigger, better publications.  I'll still send my articles to Mike if he wants them.  I have a large fan base, including the very editor at MND, much to the MRA chagrin, I'm sure.  I'm not sure if you leftist twits realized it, but the site is a CONSERVATIVE site.  You know, CONSERVATIVES advocate things like MARRIAGE and morals and strong foreign policy, etc.  These are not things MRA favor.


NOT IN THEIR CURRENT STATE!  Have you heard what these men are saying regarding the double standards, one-sided affair that marriage has become (outrageous DV laws, family court, custody etc.)?  Many of these men would favour a marriage that gave individuals equal rights (especially equal custody and paternal rights).

Quote

I'm not sure how much exposing has to be done until people realize this movement is just a hate movement.  However, I am fully confident that most intelligent people can see that already, including most female and many male posters here.  This is all the time I am giving to the MRA from now on ... they are, for the most part, irrelevant.  

By the way is "JG" on MND "Galt"?


Well, I can't see it.  I can see a lot of anger that feminist policy and
continuous degradation of our human rights causes though.

*BTW, I think your opinions should not be stiffled.
"The man who speaks to you of sacrifice, speaks of slaves and masters. And intends to be the master." -- Ayn Rand<br /><br />

Sir Jessy of Anti

Let me add an addendum too, Amber.  Many of these men are fighting for equal custody arrangements, presumption of joint custody (etc.), all of which are MORE likely to stabilize the divorce rate.  These men are fathers who just want the presumption that they are equally important in a childs life.  Many other younger men will not committ to marriage or relationships today because the moment they do, their rights under law are no longer what they were before.  Some of these men are angry individuals who have been hurt deeply by corrupt DV laws, CS laws, debtors prisons and family courts.


They are probably as equally concerned with the institution of marriage as you are - they are just rejecting the VALUE PROPOSITION.
"The man who speaks to you of sacrifice, speaks of slaves and masters. And intends to be the master." -- Ayn Rand<br /><br />

The Gonzman

Quote from: "Amber"
One of my more recent articles called "Experience Means Baggage" sparked quite a thread on the mensnewsdaily.com forums.

Basically, they accused me of being a feminist who wants to "tell men what to do."  Well, I've noticed that among mens rights activists, like feminists, men do not want to be "told what to do."  They want to do whatever they want.  They are like little kids.


Which begs the question, then - why aren't you over there defending yourself, instead of taking cheap shots over here?  Ah.  It's certainly easier then actually engaging and meeting with logic rather than over-emotional, estrogen laden rhetoric

Quote from: "Amber"
Anyway, one guy says he "went ballistic" over me.  My article specifically has the premise that marriage is a good thing.  BECAUSE of this, I state that going in and out of relationships before marriage and having lots of sex is a bad thing.  It doesn't lead to a good marriage.  That somehow makes me a feminists.  :?


No, what is objected to over there is your preachiness, your double standards, and your refusal to engage in debate.  Any criticism of your position is taken as a personal attack.  Therefore, why do anything else?  Might as well get hung for the cow as for the calf.

Quote from: "Amber"
Here is what it comes down to:  men's rights activists hate marriage.  They do not want to ever get married.  Their goal is NOT to clean up the mess known as divorce court.  They LIKE that being the way it is.  For them, it is an EXCUSE not to get married.


Nice reach in logic.  The first two are true.  If the third changes, this may change.  The last is your imagination, which has no factual basis, except that it is what color the sky is in Amber's world.

Quote from: "Amber"
Their problem is not that I am a supposed feminist, a young person who doesn't know anything, or anything of the sort.  Their problem is that I advocated marriage.


No, the problem is your assumpotion that some people may just not want to get married, or do it again.  They did their time for God and Country, and got burned, or watched far too many people got burned.

Obviously, YOU want to get married.  Nothing against that, marriage is a good deal for women.  All the choices in the world, license to commit paternity fraud, if you get in a snit, alimony and a big fat child support check are virtually assured - hell, you don't even have to take a last name.  What's yours is still yours, and you have at least a 50% claim to all that's his.  What's not to like?  It's the greatest racket women have going.  A lot of states are even worse

The reverse is true for men, but somehow you see that refusal to accomodate your wants with some kind of character flaw.  Fact is, with things the way they are, men are fuckin' idiots if the play in such a rigged game  And until, as in "If and When," it gets cleaned up, why do it?

Elsewhere you've already demonstrated your blinkered and point blank refusal to be accountable to a mate in matters of paternity, so I certainly can't see you signing some biunding prenup to set his mind at ease - which pretty much says that you'd expect him to pick up a set of loaded dice and take his chances.

Quote from: "Amber"
Don't worry, men's rights activists.  I would never hold any of your feet to the fire as I would never be interested in dating any of you.  I can't think of a woman of self esteem who would.


Have no fear.  No man with a lick of sense would want to marry a feminist like yourself, who believes in special privileges for yourself based on your plumbing.  Stick to the ignorant college boys, at least until the tits and the ass start to sag.  Biology sucks, doesn't it?  Here I am almost twice your age.  In twenty years I'll be even more af a stud muffin, and you'll be a hag.

Quote from: "Amber"
The position that I advocated in my EMB piece is also a Christian belief.  It is something that the Bible has advocated for 2000 years.  Yet, somehow, my position is naive based on the ad hominem that I am young, therefore what I say has no truth at all.


Considering your previously openly stated bigotry against religion in general and Christianity in particular (With the possible exception of your bile against jews, but thats probably just religious bigoty reacting with your racism) words like "self serving" and "hypocrite" just spring to mind.

Quote from: "Amber"
Come on:  is the true nature of men's rights activism not being exposed?  What the fuck has to happen until your eyes are opened up?


What, that they're taking a principled stand and not whoring themselves out to roll out the red carpet for someone who occasionally spouts empty words in their direction if it suits her narcissism?  Shocking.

Quote from: "Amber"
I find it ridiculous in particular that they accuse me of being a feminist.  I mean ... COME ON, can't they at least provide a semi-intelligent critique of me.  It is the evidence of small minds.  They don't like what I am saying, so they need to pigeon hole me into something they hate - feminism.  Even though I don't fit that mold, and precisely because they can't hate me for any valid reason, they need to associate me with feminism, making it easier to hate me.


You're a feminist because you're real big on the traditional roles, responsibilities and restrictions on men, but are notably silent when it comes to those of women.  You pay only token lip service to the rights of men, if at all.  Can it be any plainer than that?  Shall I break out the crayolas?

Quote from: "Amber"
By all means, start a boycott at MND to get my columns off.  It doesn't really matter.  Within a year, I'll have bigger, better publications.  I'll still send my articles to Mike if he wants them.  I have a large fan base, including the very editor at MND, much to the MRA chagrin, I'm sure.  I'm not sure if you leftist twits realized it, but the site is a CONSERVATIVE site.  You know, CONSERVATIVES advocate things like MARRIAGE and morals and strong foreign policy, etc.  These are not things MRA favor.


Au contraire.  MRA's indeed favor it.  Just a real marriage as a partnership of equals, and not with the man as the female lackey, praying day-by-day that she doesn't decide to move on and fuck him out of what he built, take his kids, and make him pay for the privilege.

But, like most feminists, dealing with a man on equal footing scares the shit out of you, doesn't it?

Quote from: "Amber"
I'm not sure how much exposing has to be done until people realize this movement is just a hate movement.  However, I am fully confident that most intelligent people can see that already, including most female and many male posters here.  This is all the time I am giving to the MRA from now on ... they are, for the most part, irrelevant.  


Whatever you say, little girl.  Except for the next few posts, and your sniping and cheap shots, and so on, and so forth.

Where I come from, it's called getting into a snit because you have only empty rhetoric for your arguments, so you're just going to give the silent treatment.  Very mature, little girl.  You've proved their point far more ably than they ever could.

Yeah, I know, I'm ignored now.  BFHD.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the Shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am the MEANEST son-of-a-bitch in the valley.

Galt

<<You're a feminist because you're real big on the traditional roles, responsibilities and restrictions on men, but are notably silent when it comes to those of women. You pay only token lip service to the rights of men, if at all.>>

I think that's kind of the core of it (or at least one of the cores).

Sir Jessy of Anti

In this regard there is little difference between feminists and traditionalists.
"The man who speaks to you of sacrifice, speaks of slaves and masters. And intends to be the master." -- Ayn Rand<br /><br />

Galt

<<In this regard there is little difference between feminists and traditionalists.>>

Actually - there isn't much when I think about it.

The feminists focus on "equal rights" while assuming the traditional roles of men.

The "traditionalist" females focus on the traditional roles of men while assuming "equal rights".

Kinda the same.  I put quotation marks around "equal rights" because many here know what that code word really means.  (For the uninitiated, it means "equality" when feminists get an advantage and "traditional" when feminists get an advantage).

This idea of the lack of accountability for women seems to run through both camps, though.

Rayden

Somebody got to Amber's goat.  Damn.

Amber

No ... any group calling itself "mens right" groups as opposed to an INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS FOR MEN AND WOMEN group ... is innately evil.  It will produce exactly what is going in the mens rights activist movement ... a bunch of victim minded men seeking nothing more than protectionism.

I'm glad they are my enemy ... just as I am glad that fascists, etc., consider me an enemy.
he men's movement is a hate movement.  

What feminism is to men; the men's rights movement is to women.

Men's rights activists blame misandry for all their problems in the same way that feminists blame the patriarchy.

The only thing men's rights activists are good at is abusing women.  

And you can quote me on that.  :D

Amber

And here is my ultimate challenge to the mens rights activists who are going nuts over my article called Experience Means Baggage:

If you REALLY do care about marriage and want to geniuinely clean up divorce .. then why, in my article, in which I clearly come out in favor of strong marriages ... of preparing and doing those things that set up for a solid marriage, by holding out for a man, which creates a stronger marriage ... did you not embrace this?

It seems a young girl advocating setting up strong marriages, not ones that lead to divorce would be embraced by them.  But it's not.  They went nuts over it.

Hmmm?  Can you answer that?  

I saw Galt replied to this thread.  God, you have no idea how glad I am that I have him on ignore ... I can already hear one of his anti-woman, anti-chivalry, anti-marriage rants ... :roll:
he men's movement is a hate movement.  

What feminism is to men; the men's rights movement is to women.

Men's rights activists blame misandry for all their problems in the same way that feminists blame the patriarchy.

The only thing men's rights activists are good at is abusing women.  

And you can quote me on that.  :D

Amber

Also I wanted to say congratulations to the mens rights activists on the board.  You got closet quite flabbergasted on your views on paternity testing.  She now can quite clearly see the MRA for what it is - probably one of the nicest not to mention most rational females you will ever meet.  GOOD JOB - KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK PISSING OFF EVERY LAST GOOD FEMALE OUT THERE!!!
he men's movement is a hate movement.  

What feminism is to men; the men's rights movement is to women.

Men's rights activists blame misandry for all their problems in the same way that feminists blame the patriarchy.

The only thing men's rights activists are good at is abusing women.  

And you can quote me on that.  :D

The Gonzman

Quote from: "Amber"
And here is my ultimate challenge to the mens rights activists who are going nuts over my article called Experience Means Baggage:

If you REALLY do care about marriage and want to geniuinely clean up divorce .. then why, in my article, in which I clearly come out in favor of strong marriages ... of preparing and doing those things that set up for a solid marriage, by holding out for a man, which creates a stronger marriage ... did you not embrace this?

It seems a young girl advocating setting up strong marriages, not ones that lead to divorce would be embraced by them.  But it's not.  They went nuts over it.

Hmmm?  Can you answer that?  


Simple.  We don't HAVE marriage in this country.  What we have is some legal arrangement which stole name of the sacred covenant of marriage, and broke it down to a temporary contract of convenience. You can put all the lipstick on that pig you want.

Marriage doesn't even resemble what it was even fifty years ago, let alone what is was a hundred years ago.

You've offered nothing in there but platitudes.  You've never BEEN married, fer chrissake.  And you stand their preaching to men who have been through it, lost it all, and wonder why they're asking you what the fuck you know?

Have you ever actually sat down with a divorced man who has lost everything he worked for, his family, his dreams, his kids?  You ever done it without a chip on your shoulder and listened to him, without a hundred "yeah buts?"  Ever watch one of them take the exact same school picture and put one on every wall of their house because he otherwise only gets to see his flesh and blood every two weeks - unless mommy decides she doesn't feel like granting him his visitation this time?  Watch him be damned for having one job and not enough money to pay child support, and doubly damned for having a second job and not having time left over for his kid?

Ever gather among a group of friends at a 20th year reuinion, and find almost all of them have the exact same story?  The only ones who don't are almost to a man either gay or never married?

Good God.  You honestly just don't have a clue, do you?
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the Shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am the MEANEST son-of-a-bitch in the valley.

Sir Jessy of Anti

Quote from: "Amber"
No ... any group calling itself "men's right" groups as opposed to an INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS FOR MEN AND WOMEN group ... is innately evil.  It will produce exactly what is going in the men's rights activist movement ... a bunch of victim minded men seeking nothing more than protectionism.

I'm glad they are my enemy ... just as I am glad that fascists, etc., consider me an enemy.


Do you feel the same way about women's rights and all that entails?

Fem-i-nism at least describes the situation aptly:  Women-firsterism.  Traditionalism also has similar expectations.  You seem unable to argue this point.

I would argue women's rights and men's rights are part of human rights, and as such should be considered in the context of human rights.
You seem to want to argue that only women have human rights worthy of note.

Now will you respond to the charges, or not?  We won't think much of you if you don't (which quite frankly is disappointing).

P.S.  We are not responsible for the confusion that Closet may undergo as a result of the cognitive dissonance experienced from reading multiple opinions.  I would be glad to explain my opinions and why they are what they are if she so desires.  I too, think she is an awesome person.  You seem to be saying
that men are not individuals if they attempt to point out bias.

Quote

If you REALLY do care about marriage and want to genuinely clean up divorce .. then why, in my article, in which I clearly come out in favor of strong marriages ... of preparing and doing those things that set up for a solid marriage, by holding out for a man, which creates a stronger marriage ... did you not embrace this?


Some of us quite clearly DID.
"The man who speaks to you of sacrifice, speaks of slaves and masters. And intends to be the master." -- Ayn Rand<br /><br />

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