I'm just curious: How far would the religious people be willing to go here with regard to parents pushing a particular religion on a child?
Pretty far.
There have certainly been cases in which children have basically been tortured to death because of religious beliefs. There have even been cases of that type under Catholicism (just so you know that I'm not just talking about "cults") - there have been botched exorcisms and instances of praying instead of medical help. Is that just God's will? Torturing a child to death?
Examples abound of such things happening among non-believers as well. Correlation is not causation.
And indoctrination (the second of Neoteny's definitions, the one that sounds like the "real" meaning to me) is indoctrination whether the state does it or whether parents do it.
INeoteny answered you on this, I can only add - "What he said."
I can assure you, God hates no one.
You're like his official spokesperson or something? You sit in on all the board meetings?
Uh-oh, now we have an Angry God who's going to bring vengeance. And, coincidentally, on someone with a different view than The Gonzman. We've got two spokespersons here (one even "assures us" of God's position), but the positions sound conflicting. Pure love, but anger and vengeance (maybe it's just an anger management problem).
Now we have issue being taken no matter what is said.
Here's my general stance, so I don't get bogged down in the quibbles:
Public schools - while the children are young - should not be teaching anything "controversial" or anything that a significant group in society objects to or disagrees with, whether a "gay agenda" or religious tenets. Stick to the readin, ritin and rithmetic and everyone will be happy. Public schools can bring up the controversial topics later - when students start forming their own opinions, like in high school - but it should be presented as an exercise in critical thinking and both points of view should be accepted. If a teacher can't follow that (and many can't) then put them somewhere where they can't do any damage.
And although parents can also "indoctrinate", there should be wider leeway for them. They can teach their children all the crap they want, I guess. There should be a borderline that they can't cross over, though. I have no idea where that line is, but I suspect torturing and killing children in the name of some religious conviction is over the line.
Anybody really disagree with the two paragraphs immediately above?
More importantly, there's nothing you say here that disagrees with anything anyone said already.
Yet, still, somehow you manage to find fault and get bogged down in quibbles.
My basic beef with religious matters involves the people who are ABSOLUTELY SURE that they know exactly how the entire universe (or universes in a multi-universe place) works.
I place no value on anything that only boasts of more uncertainty; nor in following any philosophy, religion, et al, which I cannot believe in. I don't believe in the Koran, so I'm not a Muslim. I don't believe in the book of Mormon, so I'm not a Mormon. Nor a Hindu, Buddhist, Wiccan, etc. I've been a singularly devout atheist in my life, and rejected it because it - like anything else - has been weighed, measured, and found wanting.
That's obviously just ego and childishness. I have no idea about what the real deal with the universe ultimately is, but I have a better idea that people who claim they know ... don't. So it is particularly funny when we have one person "assuring us" (how absolutely presumptuous and condescending) of one thing, and another person using religion (in a diametrically opposed fashion) to vicariously threaten someone.
Well, if you feel threatened by someone who has never claimed any authority over your soul and its eternal destination, I'd suggest therapy. Muslim keep telling me I'm going to get pitched into their hell by their moon-demon to burn forever with their Arch-Genie Iblis, but I don't feel threatened there.
Of course, I also hold no secret fear the Mooselimbs are right, so I feel about as threatened as someone warning me that James T. Kirk, the Creator of the Universe, is going to have me thrown in the Brig for all eternity. YMMV.
As far as "Hell" goes, I'm actually fairly liberal in my approach. And I also really don't care if anyone goes there; I'm not an evangelist, the command to "Preach the Gospel" was a general one to the church, in specific the Apostles (Bishops).
The upshot is, everyone sins. You don't go to hell for that, you go to hell for not repenting of it.
Like I said, you want to tell Dad he's full of shit, his rules are outmoded and archaic, he can stick them up his ass and fuck off because you're not going to live by them - that's always your choice. If you don't believe in Dad, by all means, laugh at me and do as you will. It's no skin off my ass. If he doesn't exist - I'm no worse off. I've done my part - told you what my church teaches - and after that, I wash my hands of it.
If he does, though, Well, you'll be shown the door and invited to leave and try it your way. Whether you go out that door is your decision.
Doesn't the New Testament talk about the idea of humility and humbleness? Why are religious people so ... pushy and know-it-all?
Yeah, how dare they have any faith and belief? It's worsethanhitler.
