The MRA's Court: Should This Father Have Faced Arrest At All? (VIDEO)

[zetamale]

the tao-te-ching is an interesting one, i actually like it quite a bit, its a good read from a philosophical point if you get a nice translation

never did i say that christianity shouldnt be taught, nor did i endorse a statist/fascist system my point was that if its indoctrination it is harmful, so does it really matter where it comes from?

also why is it that the same people who tend to want teaching about homosexuality out of the classroom (at any age) seem to be the ones who want to push for the bible in the classroom the most? isnt it then just endorsing the indoctrination that one wants?

[Captain Courageous]

but its still the indoctrination of children and id rather have children accept homosexuality than buy into the bible

never did i say that christianity shouldnt be taught, nor did i endorse a statist/fascist system my point was that if its indoctrination it is harmful, so does it really matter where it comes from?

also why is it that the same people who tend to want teaching about homosexuality out of the classroom (at any age) seem to be the ones who want to push for the bible in the classroom the most? isnt it then just endorsing the indoctrination that one wants?

Where do you think instruction leaves off, and indoctrination begins? Could you give us an example of what you consider to be indoctrination ... other than the Bible?

[The Gonzman]

also why is it that the same people who tend to want teaching about homosexuality out of the classroom (at any age) seem to be the ones who want to push for the bible in the classroom the most? isnt it then just endorsing the indoctrination that one wants?

Strawman, sir.

YOU advocated indoctrination of children over the wishes of the parent by the state.  YOU placed special scorn on the Bible, which you did not have the common courtesy to even capitalize.  Or are you yet another of those "unique" people who feels it is a form of oppression, yadda, yadda, yadda, to use proper punctuation and grammar?

In no place have I advocating teaching any religion, let alone mine, by the state.  It is why, in fact, I pulled my children from the abusive atmosphere of State Indoctrination Centers.

I am a parent, and wish to be left alone to form and mold my children's values, morals, and belief systems as I see fit, without submitting it to a popular vote on what is "correct" to teach them; and perhaps if the State did not work so hard to undercut that, I might feel differently about it.

Whatever is wrong with that?

[The Gonzman]

never did i say that christianity shouldnt be taught, nor did i endorse a statist/fascist system

Ahem.  And I quote:

but its still the indoctrination of children and id rather have children accept homosexuality than buy into the bible

Attend:

1) You clearly would rather children not be taught the Bible, since it contradicts your own pet cause, or at the very least that parental teaching of the bible should be "corrected."  And...

2) You did not say "MY children" but "Children."  This is general.  Who shall do this?  Who shall enact and enfoce this policy, this preference of yours?  Why should this extend to children which are not yours? And...

3) You said this in direct response to my statement that parents have a right to shape and mold their children over that of the state, which provides clear context.

So -  Yes.  Yes, you did, yes you did.

my point was that if its indoctrination it is harmful, so does it really matter where it comes from?

Parental Teaching is legitimate, natural, and not indoctrination.

State Propaganda is illegitimate and unnatural, and therefore IS indoctrination.

[zetamale]

courageous-that is something i have often wondered about myself, i dont have a concrete answer. Its a hard line to draw

gonzman-Id have no problem with people teaching the bible, as long as it is not taught as fact

i was expanding the conversation (similar to what courageous was talking about where does teaching end and indoctrination begin?), and as i said-my point was indoctrination harmful regardless of where it comes from. How is that a straw man?

parental teaching can be indoctrination. Cutting off all other views designing them to think as you do/want...that is by definition indoctrination, indoctrination is not about where it comes from but how it is done

[Captain Courageous]

Well, again, what would you consider to be an example of indoctrination; notwithstanding the Old or New Testaments?

[The Gonzman]

gonzman-Id have no problem with people teaching the bible, as long as it is not taught as fact

Well, how very big of you.  You'll allow me to teach my children my religion so long as I put some disclaimer on it, because you assert you know the truth.

Care to leaven that assertion with some deductive proofs?

i was expanding the conversation (similar to what courageous was talking about where does teaching end and indoctrination begin?), and as i said-my point was indoctrination harmful regardless of where it comes from. How is that a straw man?

In the first place, Captain C asked that very recently, BEFORE your "expansion."  Or do you claim some precognitive power to see people's comments before they are made?

It is a straw man when you - and again, I quote - say:

also why is it that the same people who tend to want teaching about homosexuality out of the classroom (at any age) seem to be the ones who want to push for the bible in the classroom the most? isnt it then just endorsing the indoctrination that one wants?

I do not believe that discussions of morals have any place in the classroom, AND I do not believe that my religion should be taught in the classroom - only that my moral and religious instruction of my children not be undermined by the state.

You argue against a position never taken - ergo, a Straw Man.  Q. E. D.

parental teaching can be indoctrination. Cutting off all other views designing them to think as you do/want...that is by definition indoctrination, indoctrination is not about where it comes from but how it is done

And yet, you would teach your point of view, and would that other points of view be taught, if they be taught, as having no authority.  In favor of your POV.

Hypocrisy.

[zetamale]

Well, again, what would you consider to be an example of indoctrination; notwithstanding the Old or New Testaments?

the OT and NT are not in themselves indoctrination, it is when they become absolute fact and absolute truth that they become indoctrination.

Personally I say that any teaching that leads towards intolerance, that also leads to attempting to institutionalizing intolerance is indoctrination. Another perfect example i think we can all agree on is feminism and its black and white teaching that women have been oppressed since the dawn of time, and men have had life easy.

[The Gonzman]

the OT and NT are not in themselves indoctrination, it is when they become absolute fact and absolute truth that they become indoctrination.

In what way?  Sola Scriptura literal inerrancy?  (Careful, It's a trap!  Such beliefs are held as heretical by a majority of the world's Christians.)  That all scripture is good for instruction?  How?

Personally I say that any teaching that leads towards intolerance, that also leads to attempting to institutionalizing intolerance is indoctrination.

I see.  Well, I guess that my teaching my kids not to lie, steal, murder, cheat, and so on - or tolerate it or people who do it - is "indoctrination?"

I have news for Gays and gay apologists - while I do believe their lifestyle is sinful, it's way low on the list of things that bother me in someone.  Buggering another man or munching rug is neither unique or special in the scale of things.  Your biggest problem, as with any sin, is putting your judgment ahead of God's, and deciding he's full of shit and can take his rules and go fuck himself.

And you'll have to take that up with him.

I'm sure, though, if you feel that strongly about it, and that you can't live my his rules under his roof, he'll be happy to give you exactly what you ask for, a nice little univers of your own where you can indulge your desires all you wish.

Notice I said "universe" and not "World."  The other part of that is "Get your own dirt."

[.]

Zeta, I fully recognize that any belief system -- no matter how merited or accurate -- can be used as a pretext to inflict injustice on people.  Even so, that does not mean that a parent shouldn't teach his or her child right from wrong as the parent understands right and wrong to be defined.  This includes teaching children from scripture.  Certainly, children will reach an age where they are fully capable of making up their own mind and setting their own religious and ethical priorities.  But please don't provide justification for the long arm of the law to impose some sort of penalties upon parents who teach their children that scripture is true and accurate.  If the parent considers it true, then the parent has a duty to pass it on to their kids as true.

[The Biscuit Queen]

but its still the indoctrination of children and id rather have children accept homosexuality than buy into the bible

I know others have replied, but I will say it again. It is your choice to teach your children to accept homosexuality. It is my choice to raise my children according to the Word of God, which says we accept every person yet reject harmful choices such as homosexuality.

It is not the school's choice to do either.

The school is there to teach our kids to read, and write, work math equations and do science experiments. The separation of church and state goes both ways. We protect our churches from state indoctrination, and protect our state institutions from religious control. Homosexuality is a moral issue, and thus both sides need to be seen as a religious stance. If you are going to allow pro-homosexual material, then you must allow anti-homosexual material.

It is no different than allowing an athiest to come in a lecture about the lack of God while prohibiting a Christian or Jew from rebutting. Just because the athiest does not believe in God does not mean it is not a religious issue.

Most Christians teach their children to pray for gays; to love them even while disagreeing with their choice of lifestyle. It is a tragedy that a few lunatic fringe have perverted the Bible to the point where the average person thinks it says "God Hates Gays". I can assure you, God hates no one.

[scarbo]

My wife and I both have many friends who are homosexual, and we are both convinced that homosexuality is not a "choice".

[TheDude]

I can assure you, God hates no one.

You're like his official spokesperson or something? You sit in on all the board meetings?

Statements like that are silly and presumptuous. And by the way, other "official deputies" of God tell people they are going to burn in hell for even questioning (religious) doctrines.

[TheDude]

Your biggest problem, as with any sin, is putting your judgment ahead of God's, and deciding he's full of shit and can take his rules and go fuck himself.

And you'll have to take that up with him.

Uh-oh, now we have an Angry God who's going to bring vengeance. And, coincidentally, on someone with a different view than The Gonzman. We've got two spokespersons here (one even "assures us" of God's position), but the positions sound conflicting. Pure love, but anger and vengeance (maybe it's just an anger management problem).

Zetamale, you're right, pushing religion on impressionable children IS indoctrination, whether the schools or the parents do it.

[TheDude]

I'm sure, though, if you feel that strongly about it, and that you can't live my his rules under his roof, he'll be happy to give you exactly what you ask for, a nice little univers of your own where you can indulge your desires all you wish.

This is almost delusional.