Men Fined for Whistling at Women

Started by Matt, Dec 16, 2003, 01:14 PM

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Matt

In most jurisdictions, felony convictions can be established without intent being proven, but the jury is offered varying degrees of the charge upon which to convict. For example, here in New Jersey (and in most other states), if you're talking on a cell phone while driving, not paying attention to the road, and you hit someone walking along the shoulder, killing them, you can be charged with a lesser degree of murder known as criminally negligent homicide. You didn't INTEND to kill the person, but your actions created an extrodinary, unjustifiable, and preventable risk that set it apart from sheer accident.

The problem with sexual/gender crimes is indeed in the question of intent, but also in the fact that no such distinctions are drawn for degrees of the crime. A man pulls a woman off the street, into the bushes, and rapes her at knifepoint, that's intent. A woman regrets the sex she had under the influence of alcohol the morning after and decides that it wasn't consensual, the same charge of felony sexual assault (rape) gets filed -- with the exception of a few municipalities scattered throughout the country and the state of Colorado, which have first and second-degree sexual assault provision in their respective penal codes.

Same thing with sexual harrassment. A male supervisor threatens to fire a woman and then implies she can save her job if she grants him sexual favors, that's intentional harrassment. A man says, "Hey, you look nice today" to a female co-worker and she takes it the wrong way, there's nothing intentional about that (at least nothing that could be proven in a court).

Distinctions between intentional sex/gender crimes and negligent ones would be nice, but crimes can take place without intent nonetheless.
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Galt

<<A man says, "Hey, you look nice today" to a female co-worker and she takes it the wrong way, there's nothing intentional about that (at least nothing that could be proven in a court).>>

Well, but the guy himself is not on the hook anyway (at least under Title VII - it's considered discrimination against the woman by the company).

The guy who said that may take flak from the company, but that's not (at least ostensibly) a legal issue - in other words, the company can tell you it doesn't like your behavior.

Nichov

Yeah well... intent is important... but it can be mismanaged in the legal system as well... for example... it's a lesser crime to attempt to kill a person who survives than it is to attempt to kill a person who dies...

I'm talking about the difference between 'Attempted Murder' and 'Murder' (various degrees of both of course.)

It seems to me that if you're trying to kill a person and it's clear you intended to kill them you should be charged with murder.... Just because the victim happened to survive does not make you any less guilty nor dangerous.
Society does not have the right to discriminate against victims of domestic violence because of their gender."  - www.amen.ie

Renegade

Quote
A male supervisor threatens to fire a woman and then implies she can save her job if she grants him sexual favors, that's intentional harrassment.


However, if the woman "volunteers" to grant sexual favors to her supervisor to save her job, this is not a crime. Exact same situation (man recieves sexual "favors" and woman keeps her job), yet one is a crime and one is "a woman using her feminine wiles".

I can't think of any situation in which the woman would be considered a crime from "volunteering" sexual favors in exchange for something (outside of blatant prostitution), but it IS a crime if a man *requests* sexual favors in exchange for something. Same situation. It just depends on who initiates the transaction.

Did you by chance hear the drugtest.mp3 file from the MND forum?

R
"A man chooses. A slave obeys." What if a man 'chooses' to obey, because he is met with scorn, shame and ridicule and rendered a social outcasts if he does not?

devia

Quote
However, if the woman "volunteers" to grant sexual favors to her supervisor to save her job, this is not a crime. Exact same situation (man recieves sexual "favors" and woman keeps her job), yet one is a crime and one is "a woman using her feminine wiles".  



My husband has an incompetent manager under him who is only there because he is buddies with the owner of the company. He takes him to the bar and goes hunting with the owner- he's kept his job though he should have been fired years ago.

Not the same thing as the boss telling him that either he does something he doesn't want to do (let's say the same guy found hunting abhorrent) but was told you hunt or your fired. If the boss did that he would be allowed to file a wrongful firing suit, and for good reason.

Imo workplace sexual harassment should be under the same umbrella as any workplace harassment. A coworker or boss sabotaging your ability to do your job affectively because of a personal grudge is wrong whether sexual in nature or not.

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Galt

I've actually thought that too.

There was a massive suit against Merrill Lynch, for instance, in which women claimed discrimination because accounts from retired or fired people were (supposedly) not distributed to some of them because they were women.  (Other women were presumably given more BECAUSE they were women - in other words a swing of the hip or bat of the eye.)

There is the same effect if the boss simply doesn't like a man there and gives him less, or if he doesn't like a particular woman (some, in fact, get more account distributions ... because the boss likes them - just like with men).  Exactly the same effect.  But according to reports, the women got hefty settlements, some around $100,000.

Matt

Quote from: "devia"
Imo workplace sexual harassment should be under the same umbrella as any workplace harassment. A coworker or boss sabotaging your ability to do your job affectively because of a personal grudge is wrong whether sexual in nature or not.


You're absolutely right. It should all fall under the heading of "incompetent business management". Any personnel decision that involves promoting unqualified people, firing qualified people, sabotage, performance evaluation based on non-job-related factors, or the trading of favors is an obstacle to an enterprise maximizing its profit potential. When behavior like this is tolerated, it costs a company money. Hence, it is in the company's best interest to prevent it from happening.
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Nichov

Threatening to fire someone then asking them for a sexual favor in return for job security is not harassment.  It's extortion.  Sexual extortion.

If a person offers sexual favors in return for job security, this is bribery.  Sexual bribery.

Why do people get confused when money's role in crime is replaced with sex?

Embedded in your (everyone on this thread) language is the idea that men have a set role in regards to sexual harassment, and women have the opposite set role.  The fact is it works both ways.
Society does not have the right to discriminate against victims of domestic violence because of their gender."  - www.amen.ie

Matt

Quote from: "Nichov"
Embedded in your (everyone on this thread) language is the idea that men have a set role in regards to sexual harassment, and women have the opposite set role.  The fact is it works both ways.


Without a doubt. Those were just examples. And yes, using them probably does indicate a stereotypical mindset. I apologize.
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Nichov

Thank you Matt.
Society does not have the right to discriminate against victims of domestic violence because of their gender."  - www.amen.ie

LSBeene

Matt,

No need to apologize.  What we do here is free flowing and constantly updated information and the general "bouncing around" of ideas.  I don't know about you, but I learn tons here and add it to my repetoire of knowledge so that when I write I can be as factual as possible.  When we are factual (with links, articles, examples, etc) we add to our credibility.  Keep up the good work Matt.

Steven
'Watch our backs at home, we'll guard the wall over here. You can sleep safe tonight, we'll guard the door."

Isaiah 6:8
"Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!"

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