My response to Beene

Started by Amber, Dec 17, 2003, 10:41 PM

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Amber

"Look ... your kind of story is exactly how feminists got their movement started.  They took a lot of women who felt like victims, or were victims, and extrapolated their situation on to the population at large.  They gained a lot of sympathy by taking REAL issues - like women being raped and then not getting justice - and made a huge propaganda out of it.

I am going to tell you what I would have, had I could have, said to women who were victims thus caught up in feminism:  don't get caught up in the movement.  They used female pain and exploited it - turning it into a hate movement.

Situations like yours were artifically created victim-cases.  Men cannot and will not as easily play the victim card.  So they had to do something awful to men in order to get them to join the socialist bandwagon, which necessarily means turning men into victims, and haters, and who feel like they are "owed" something as all socialists believe.  That is exactly what I see happening.

I have said before:  anything that is done in the name of "group" rights is evil.  It is by definition a protectionist movement.  This is exactly what the men's movement is and will continue to turn into.  Look at all their fundamental tenets:  they are the exact same thing as feminists.  Look at how many MRA hate women - just like feminists.  Were I accusing the feminists of hating men, they would tell me the same thing the MRA are trying to tell me - hey, we don't ALL hate men you know!  Whatever, it doesn't matter.  MRA also hate marriage and want to destroy chivalry.  Here is why:  because those pupeteering the strings know feminism is going to collapse shortly.  It cannot stand public scrutiny - hardly any women consider themselves feminists anymore.  They need to continue to wreak havoc on society and destroy things under a different name now, which is what guys like you - innocent victims - are going to help them do.  

In your case, I would not suggest that a men's movement is necessary:  but objectivite law and individual rights.  You should be hacking away at feminists in the way that organizations like the IWF does - by exposing and showing their stupidity and advocating individual rights.  You should challenge the collectivist notion of "women's rights."   A movement should not, as the mens rights activists are doing, look at the protectionism women get and go "hey we want it too!"  You may say you do not, but the fact is most MRA do.  

The IWF does things for men often.  The very reason why they started is because feminists were trying to ruin Clarence Thomas's career.  This is an appropriate method to deal with it; not "mens rights" activism.

So there, that is my answer to you.  "
he men's movement is a hate movement.  

What feminism is to men; the men's rights movement is to women.

Men's rights activists blame misandry for all their problems in the same way that feminists blame the patriarchy.

The only thing men's rights activists are good at is abusing women.  

And you can quote me on that.  :D

LSBeene

My first comments to which she responded:

Since I have nothing against Amber, but I AM an "MRA" I will take the opposing point of view.  

First off, let me say that there are some wounded and angry people who are MRA's.  I don't agree with the misogyny, but I do rather understand it.  Let's be clear on what distinction I am making.  I am not defending it, but I understand it somewhat.  Many MRA's or people who claim to be MRAs have been really burned, at a very personal level, over a long period of time, by women.  It may have even been multiple times.  I know that there is hatred, and again I don't agree, but upon hearing their stories, I understand where it comes from.

Also, many people come to the forums to vent.  It is not possible to do so in most "real life" situations.  Saying to them "get a life" is silly.   In "real life" they cannot decry the wrongs done, they can do so here.  Telling them to "get a life" at the only place they can express themselves and find like-minded people is nonsequitor.  THIS is where they can talk about it, the other 90% of the time, they must keep it internalized.

That being said, MRAs DO serve a useful service when their energies are properly and positively directed.  MRAs have managed to set up a Status on Men's Rights Commision in NH.  We have gotten DV against men acknowledged by more people (though the situation still sux).  We have been able to educate each other on false date-rape stats, false-DV stats, miscarraiges of justice, and to be mutually supportive.  By letter writing, E-mailing, idea sharing, and sites like Glenns, AH, Men's Activism, and others I have found a lot of information and support I could not get in "real life".  

For me, as a falsely accused rapist, I have found the LIFE ALTERING consequences of telling "close friends" of what happened to me.  I would tell someone I knew and trusted and the "false" in "false allegations" was forgotten by the time this "friend" had shared my issue.  He or she may have meant well.  They really may have, but others would twist the words, pass on the juicy parts, and another few doors in my life would close.  Here on the internet I can have an Identity, but still not have the false allegations destroy my life.  I can support others who just had this happen.  Those who's feelings are still raw and who are bewildered.  I can help them heal and educate them.  I am making a positive difference.  I am not a victim, I am a survivor.  On a personal note, to me, God picked me up when I was broken.  He never left me, even when most others had.  I pass along that message too.

MRAs can be a positive influence.  There are bad apples, so be it.  I will defend the MRA position.  Ball's in your court.

Steven
'Watch our backs at home, we'll guard the wall over here. You can sleep safe tonight, we'll guard the door."

Isaiah 6:8
"Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!"

LSBeene

My response to Amber's response:

I am wondering if the problem isn't a question of labels then. I am starting to think that what I define as "Men's Rights Activist" and what you define it as are different.

I remember this speech teacher I had who I had a lot of respect for. She was strong in personality and articulate in speech. She and I got along very well. One day I asked her if she was a "feminist" as she had a lot of strong opinions on men and women. She responded "first ... you define what you think a feminist is, and then I will tell you if I am a feminist or not". That answer has always stuck with me, and I think it is why we can't see eye to eye now.

To ME, an MRA is a person who is advocating for equality when feminists have distorted what "fair" and "unfair" are. To me, an MRA is a person who educates other men on potential dangers that face them in today's society, and lets them know where the "landmines" are. To me, an MRA is someone who writes letters and sends E-mails in support of men's groups or of legislation that will reverse legislation that feminists have put in place that is inherently unfair.

And on a personal note I, like you, have a lot of desire for traditional relationships. I also believe the "disposable relationship" of today (like the "baggage" article you wrote) has distorted what men and women think they are "supposed" to want.

What ya think?

Steven
'Watch our backs at home, we'll guard the wall over here. You can sleep safe tonight, we'll guard the door."

Isaiah 6:8
"Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!"

Sir Jessy of Anti

Question for Amber:  If we started an organization called the Independent Men's Forum, and had the same principles, would you call us evil MRA's?


For instance, I consider the IWF to be a part of the women's movement, albeit a much more venerable organization than what that phrase would normally conjure up.
"The man who speaks to you of sacrifice, speaks of slaves and masters. And intends to be the master." -- Ayn Rand<br /><br />

Amber

Quote from: "LSBeene"
My response to Amber's response:

I am wondering if the problem isn't a question of labels then. I am starting to think that what I define as "Men's Rights Activist" and what you define it as are different.

I remember this speech teacher I had who I had a lot of respect for. She was strong in personality and articulate in speech. She and I got along very well. One day I asked her if she was a "feminist" as she had a lot of strong opinions on men and women. She responded "first ... you define what you think a feminist is, and then I will tell you if I am a feminist or not". That answer has always stuck with me, and I think it is why we can't see eye to eye now.

To ME, an MRA is a person who is advocating for equality when feminists have distorted what "fair" and "unfair" are. To me, an MRA is a person who educates other men on potential dangers that face them in today's society, and lets them know where the "landmines" are. To me, an MRA is someone who writes letters and sends E-mails in support of men's groups or of legislation that will reverse legislation that feminists have put in place that is inherently unfair.

And on a personal note I, like you, have a lot of desire for traditional relationships. I also believe the "disposable relationship" of today (like the "baggage" article you wrote) has distorted what men and women think they are "supposed" to want.

What ya think?

Steven



No, I think definitions have objective meanings, not arbitrary definitions.  This is exactly what feminists did.  "Feminism" never had an objectivie definition, so anyone and everyone would become a "feminist" - even if they were a libertarian or Marxist.  It's goal was to maintain popularity and never get pinned down to a position.  You could say "feminists don't advocate morality."  And they will come back "Well not MY brand of feminism."  Then another person could come with a different and opposite critique, "I don't like feminism because they force their morals of anti-pornography on other people."  And someone could be right there, "Well not MY brand of feminism."  So you can never argue feminism head on as they are always dodging in and out of accusations.  You can think of it like a CIA op trying to find Saddam Hussein, and every time they get him, he morphs into some different figure, and says, "Hey look I'm not Saddam Hussein!"  

Men's rights are not a valid concept.  Period.  Individual rights are.  

Sorry, but you would have got upset had I not responded.
he men's movement is a hate movement.  

What feminism is to men; the men's rights movement is to women.

Men's rights activists blame misandry for all their problems in the same way that feminists blame the patriarchy.

The only thing men's rights activists are good at is abusing women.  

And you can quote me on that.  :D

Amber

Quote from: "Sir Jessy of Anti"
Question for Amber:  If we started an organization called the Independent Men's Forum, and had the same principles, would you call us evil MRA's?


No but perhaps evil IMFers.  Just kidding.

If you had the stated mission statement was that you advocate individual rights for men and women, the whole ballpark would change.  If such a thing were to happen, it would not be a mere name change.  People who fundamentally understand the importance of individual rights would have a correct movement.  It would look completely different - not just in name.  Yes, it would be rational and appropriate.  


Quote
For instance, I consider the IWF to be a part of the women's movement, albeit a much more venerable organization than what that phrase would normally conjure up.



Ummmm ok.  The IWF questions feminist dogma over and over again.  It advocates career women, but it advocates that women themselves be capable and competent enough to get jobs on their own merit not through the government.  If you call that the "women's movement" then, well, whatever.  It is more a Republican movement than it is a women's movement.
he men's movement is a hate movement.  

What feminism is to men; the men's rights movement is to women.

Men's rights activists blame misandry for all their problems in the same way that feminists blame the patriarchy.

The only thing men's rights activists are good at is abusing women.  

And you can quote me on that.  :D

Amber

I hate different "brands" of feminism.  Women who start going "Wait wait wait ... don't give up feminism ... let's just REDEFINE IT ... and TAKE IT BACK ... " ... grrrRRRRrrrr, they make me want to :vomit:  No, feminism needs completely dismantled from the inside out.  You know what it reminds me of?  It reminds me of Shirin Ebadi coming out and saying "No no no ... the problem isn't ISLAM ... it's the WRONG version of Islam ... please please please give Islam a chance, let's just REDEFINE it."

Anyway, these women are enablers.  Sommers, McElroy, etc.  In this respect, I think they do more harm than good.

Anyway, just a random, drive-by thought from Amber[TM].
he men's movement is a hate movement.  

What feminism is to men; the men's rights movement is to women.

Men's rights activists blame misandry for all their problems in the same way that feminists blame the patriarchy.

The only thing men's rights activists are good at is abusing women.  

And you can quote me on that.  :D

Daymar

"Men's rights are not a valid concept. Period. Individual rights are."

So while we're advocating for individual rights when are we going to make note of the messed up laws and practices that regard men's rights? All that stuff targeted specifically at men like the DV industry and date rape etc which has nothing to do with women. You can advocate for men's rights and women's rights at the same time ya know.

When you advocate for men's rights you're dealing with the things that are targeted at men only. You can't advocate for individual rights in those cases because they're not regarding men and women they're only regarding men.

Men's rights are not a valid concept? Men is just an articulation of the differences in the human genders. You could say men's and women's rights or you could say individual rights but the former would just be an articulation.

Amber

When I started my club I said "Individual rights as applied to gender issues."  It would be "Individual rights as applied to men's issues."  "Men's rights" like "women's rights" is evil from the starting gate.  

Besides that:  here is a tip.  The only men the men's movement are gathering are victimized men.  Men who were ripped in divorce; men who had their kids taken away from them; men in jail for being falsely accused of hitting or raping a woman.  These men do not make good activists. The best activists are not victims.  Victims, especially ones without any kind of resolve, only want to hate things.  The only thing the kind of people they are picking up are good at is the start of a hate movement.  Re-routing the image and purpose of the movement isn't just a matter of being ethical; it is a matter of being effective.
he men's movement is a hate movement.  

What feminism is to men; the men's rights movement is to women.

Men's rights activists blame misandry for all their problems in the same way that feminists blame the patriarchy.

The only thing men's rights activists are good at is abusing women.  

And you can quote me on that.  :D

Daymar

"The only men the men's movement are gathering are victimized men."

That's most likely about 70% and most likely that ratio will never drop since it seems like men wont stand up for themselves and each other unless they've become upset enough.

Of course Beene is a victim and seems to be pretty fairminded.

LSBeene

Ok, then if the problem is not one of labels .....

Here is why I am honestly scratching my head.  Maybe I should, with brevity, explain why I am a MRA (or what I call an MRA).

Falsely accused of rape.  Survive, get woman to admit lying (a long time later), go to another college, same freaking thing happens.  Even the ADA won't bring charges (this WOMAN ADA HATES RAPISTS!) as they are ridiculous.  I am booted out.  I was on the way to being an AIRLINE PILOT.  Third generation pilot.  Grandfather, father (vietnam war hero), and then me.  Was reduced to doing manual labor, when I told my story I got little sympathy (my WONDERFUL wife had a hard time hearing it, and after 3 years of marriage I finally told her the whole thing).  I had VERY FEW PEOPLE to talk to.  Go online.  Meet WENDY (owe her tons).  Get the first taste of gender issues and places to go.  Find other sites and here I am today.

Amber, I know that was CHOPPY as hell, but otherwise it would have been 3 pages.  I have not become a "whiner", a "woman hater", or any other negatively connotated word  .... I am a life-rape survivor who was denied his father as he grew up.  I would like to prevent those aforementioned tradgedies from being brought into other men's lives.  I help to educate, diseminate information, and to support men who have been treated unfairly.  Sometimes I vent, sometimes I am comical, sometimes satirical, and sometimes philosophical.... but what I do HELPS educate others.  

For example, just TONIGHT, I found a post by this KAL147 person.  Where?  HERE on SYG.  He/She showed me how the feminist-victims-r-us lobby gets money and funnels it to candidates.  KAL showed me how the system works.  I would never have known where to look.  Amber, like it or not, these women think of ME as the ENEMY.  I don't think you realize what we are fighting against.  I am not at my best in my writing right this very moment (my dog is bothering me, and I am reading a good book written by my father's wingman from Vietnam) but I really just don't get what you are trying to do.

Should I just stop educating men, emotionally supporting people who have lost their homes and children, helping men avoid prison and such? What in what you have read, in MY posts, have you seen of the victim-think or the hatred of women?  I do what I do so that others can make it through life without going through what I did.  

Do I caution men about marraige?  Hell yes I do!  Do I BELIEVE in marraige, HELL YES I DO!  But I want someone to go into it EYES OPEN.  Not pessimistically looking for failure, but not as a sheep before wolves either.

Do I educate about the dangers of life-rape?  Hell yes I do!  I don't think getting anally reamed and having your "life" come to a screeching halt should be the penalty for going on a date with some sociopathic whack job.

Do I give emotional support to men who miss their children?  Hell yes I do!  I missed my dad something awful when I was growing up.  I ACHED Amber.  I cannot use a strong enough word: I ACHED for his pressence.  I find out years later that his absence was due almost completely to my mother's vindictive nature.  So I try to make sure that fahters (AND MOTHERS!!) get a fair deal.  I make it my PRIMARY mission to make sure the CHILD gets a fair deal.  Why?  Because not too long ago, I WAS THAT CHILD.

I research, read, type, vent, educate, support, and get to know about men's issues.  And I take what I get and do the most positive things I can do with it.

Now, I think that PEOPLE's rights are very important.  I belong to other sites for those.  On a MEN's site I spend my time advocating for MEN's rights, not promoting my Christian values, not promoting my 2nd Amendment values, not promoting my anti-racism values, but yes, promoting men's VALUES and helping to stop the infringment of my rights due to my reproductive plumbing being mounted on the outside.

However the semantics of it, or how I label myself, or am labeled, I will NOT GO TO PRISON TO BE RAPED because I dated some feminazi indoctrinated sociopath.  And for damn sure I am going to try to prevent it happening to the next innocent man.  What, exactly, is negative about preventing false imprisonment?  

I am a life-rape survivor.  Not a victim.  I love women for all their virtues and their failures.  I believe in elevating the human condition.  I am just trying to prevent innocent men from being jailed, bankrupted, and made into slaves by our current system.  No where in what I wrote did I in any way indicate nor advocate for the subjugation of women, just the emancipation of men from fear.

With respects,
  ---  Steven
'Watch our backs at home, we'll guard the wall over here. You can sleep safe tonight, we'll guard the door."

Isaiah 6:8
"Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!"

The Gonzman

It's curious how a neat little label of MRA is all the justifiction the Amber! (tm) needs to exercise her hate.  It's not suprising, though. considering how often she has expressed her anti-semitism in the form of Anti-jewish racism and her anti-religious bigotry

So, Men's Right's Activists hate marriage and responsibility, eh?  Why?  Because the Amber!(tm) says so.  As the late and great Mayor of NY said, let's look at the record.  I offer a recent response - FROM A WOMAN, no less, to my most recent article on Men's News Daily,"Sucker Bets", to wit:

Quote
Dear Pete,

Thank you for this article.  You are to be congratulated for telling it like it is for those who seem unwilling to believe it.

I am a married woman with two children, and have stayed home since the arrival of our children to raise and teach them.  Our marriage is a partnership based on trust and realistic expectations of working together for the good of the family.  

My ears are tired of "feminazi" edicts and rants that appear extremely selfish and that completely exclude the balance of life that is so crucial.  (I read a book called "Get off Your Butts" that stated you can do anything you want, you just can't do EVERYTHING you want.  One must prioritize.)  

For years women have been told not only can they do anything they want, they SHOULD do everything they want - regardless of the consequences of delaying marriage and family, the half-raising of children due to scheduling conflicts, and the sheer chaos of such selfishness.  One need only look around to see the devastation caused by selfishness - from either gender - in the eyes of the children and the wronged partner.  We have an awful lot of "walking wounded" from the war on marriage.

Again, thank you for demonstrating that marriage, no matter what it is called or how it is brought about, is the best situation for children, men, women and society.

C. Drew


But how can this be?  How can this woman hold a hundred and eighty degree position from the Amber! (tm) based on what I, an Evil MRA, write?

Well, first she actually bases her opinion on me based on what I do, and say, rather than what I am.  Amazing, isn't it, what happens when you actually read?  Heavens!  What will they think of next?

You want marriage?  The MRA says, "Not in a rigged game.  I'm over it."

We're tired oif giving and giving.  We're tired of being abused, mocked, and turned into the butt of every joke based on our sex.

It's no longer fun.  There is no payoff - thanks to the corrupt courts, instituted by the left wing, and bootlicked by the right, we have no families anymore.  

There is no payoff.  the Amber!(tm) professes to be an Objectivist (A warped cult of personality to begin with, and that is the good point of it as a morally bereft and degenerate way of thinking) but somehow is philosophically hypocritical and inconsistant.  What happens, pray tell, Ms. Objectivist, when you remove the enlightened self interest from a thing?

The empty and hollow American bastard child of marriage, the one who has inherited the family name, but shares none of the noble virtues of its revered ancestor - is a joke.  It bears no resemblkance to the original concept, and needs be abolished.  How best to abolish it?  Don't play.  

The Amber!(tm) is a scared little bunny.  She's scared of men insisting on and exercising individual rights - deal with me as a person, from equal ground, or don't deal with me at all.

She's scared of not having her trump card of biased courts to take her side if things don't go her way.

She's scared of actually having to be responsible for her own rights, and freedom, preferring to lump that defense off on men, but unwilling to offer the smallest token past lip service in repayment for that.

She's scared of the sight of a truly free and independent man, who won't take her crap, and infuriated when she demands a fight for her, and gets them saying "You're just not worth fighting FOR anymore."

Like a typical feminist, it's be spoiled, bitchy, demanding, self-centered, smug and then when a man gets sick of her shit - and men collectively get sick of the feminist inspired bullshit - and walks away, saying "Call me when you grow up" it becomes his fault.  He becomes a quitter, and irresponsible and hateful.

Just keep playing the game, at alol costs.  Imagine, if you will, going into a Wendy's and wanting a Frosty.  Instead of the smooth and creamy chocolate delight you've seen and heard about, you get handed a vile conconction, and see people drinking it, and retching, and some even dying.

"I don't want that.  It's not what I ordered!" you say.

But there's the Amber!(tm) is screaming at you, "No! You Damn meninists, you wretched MRA!  Drink it!  I love Frostys!  The only way you'll get a Frosty again is to drink the poison!  Be responsible for yourself!  I want a Frosty!"

Sorry.  Pass.  It's not a marriage.  It's not a Frosty, it's not what I ordered.

Damn, guys.  How selfish can we be?
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the Shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am the MEANEST son-of-a-bitch in the valley.

Galt

<<Just keep playing the game, at alol costs. Imagine, if you will, going into a Wendy's and wanting a Frosty. Instead of the smooth and creamy chocolate delight you've seen and heard about, you get handed a vile conconction, and see people drinking it, and retching, and some even dying.>>

Good point.  Aside from that, I was also under the impression that an ideal form of marriage is when two people meet who want to get married.  Not: "I have to be married by the time I'm 30, so some sap better come along."  Or: "I want lots of stuff and don't want to work for it, so I'll get married."  Or being a bad person if you don't get married when someone else decides you should.

dr e

Amber wrote:
Quote
Besides that: here is a tip. The only men the men's movement are gathering are victimized men.


This is bovine-dung.  I have never been divorced, falsely accused, involved in DV etc etc and I am proud to be an active force in fighting for men's rights.  There are numerous men who are with me in this fight and many of them have similar histories.  This seems to me to be self-serving hyperbole.    

When I say fighting for men's rights I literally mean fighting for our system to do what it says it should do, that is, to provide liberty and justice for all. At this point the balance is clearly in favor of women and needs to be righted.  To not be able to see that is a sign of ignorance and/or brainwashing.
Contact dr e  Lifeboats for the ladies and children, icy waters for the men.  Women have rights and men have responsibilties.

Matt

Quote from: "Dr Evil"
Amber wrote:
Quote
Besides that: here is a tip. The only men the men's movement are gathering are victimized men.


This is bovine-dung.  I have never been divorced, falsely accused, involved in DV etc etc and I am proud to be an active force in fighting for men's rights.  There are numerous men who are with me in this fight and many of them have similar histories.  This seems to me to be self-serving hyperbole.    

When I say fighting for men's rights I literally mean fighting for our system to do what it says it should do, that is, to provide liberty and justice for all. At this point the balance is clearly in favor of women and needs to be righted.  To not be able to see that is a sign of ignorance and/or brainwashing.


Gotta agree with the doc on this one. You don't have to have been a victim to have concerns over the way things are going or to have a desire to seek remedies.
url=http://www.mattweeks.com]
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