My response to Beene

[Daymar]

That's true, I was going to say that. I'm not a victim and I remember Jessy saying he joined for reasons other then being a victim and I'm sure there are a lot more out there. My 70% was a pretty inaccurate guess.

[Galt]

I've never been divorced (probably because I've never been married ...), and I've never had any domestic violence or rape charges against me.

I think it's an easy accusation, but one that may not stand up.

[Sir Jessy of Anti]

Question for Amber:  If we started an organization called the Independent Men's Forum, and had the same principles, would you call us evil MRA's?

[..]

For instance, I consider the IWF to be a part of the women's movement, albeit a much more venerable organization than what that phrase would normally conjure up.

Ummmm ok.  The IWF questions feminist dogma over and over again.  It advocates career women, but it advocates that women themselves be capable and competent enough to get jobs on their own merit not through the government.  If you call that the "women's movement" then, well, whatever.  It is more a Republican movement than it is a women's movement.

I disagree that it isn't a women's movement group.  It is republican.  I define women's movement in the same way I define men's movement.  I make a distinction between these concepts and feminism.
Let's read the IWF mission statement:

Our Mission
The Independent Women's Forum is dedicated to advancing the spirit of enterprise and self-reliance among women, and supporting the principles of political freedom, economic liberty, and personal responsibility.

So by their own admition, they are doing things FOR women.  They are advocating FOR women (albeit rationally and justifiably unlike feminists).
This is why I make the distinction, one you obviously already have made yourself, and should extend to men and women in the men's movement.
The men and women in this movement that are actually working for the same principles deserve your support not your derision.

"What does IWF do?
IWF provides a voice for responsible, mainstream women who embrace common sense over divisive ideology."

Hear that Amber?  They provide a voice for women.  Men simply want a voice too, without people like you calling them evil and victimist.

"We make that voice heard in the U.S. Supreme Court, among other decision makers in Washington, and across America's airwaves as we:

Counter the dangerous influence of radical feminism in the courts
Combat corrosive feminist ideology on campus
Change the terms of the debate on quality of life issues affecting American women"

"Through programs, such as our legal, campus, and work/family projects, the IWF will continue to:

Educate women on the benefits of the free market and the danger of big government
Challenge conventional feminist myths with accurate information and lively debate
Provide a forum for women who are not represented by radical feminist groups"

What a great institution.  It's a shame you can't see the GREAT men and women who are doing the same things with the view of the other sex in mind.

[Galt]

I'm almost starting to think that this is the classic thing about throwing out whatever you can ... and seeing what sticks against the wall.

If she throws out 10 different accusations that just aren't founded, there's a lot of work that goes into thinking about or refuting each individual accusation.

It's much easier for a person to simply spew ... simply spew ... anything left and right.  And sooner or later people have to recognize that, and possibly recognize that it's no longer worth the effort.

[Sir Jessy of Anti]

Truth.

[Amber]

Hear that Amber? They provide a voice for women. Men simply want a voice too, without people like you calling them evil and victimist.

Fine, but it is still not done in the name of "women's rights."

[Amber]

Anyway, I'm done with this stupid "men's rights" debate.  As I said, I find their movement to be irrelevant.  The healthy majority of them are victim-minded and angry.  This includes men on this board.  They would rather shout down writers like me or Tom Sylvester than do anything to make any change.  Are you going to tell me what POSITIVE change - and GOOD ACTIVISTS out there are making a difference?  The ones you say that are not victims ... where are they?  What government law are they helping redirect?  What congresspeople are they lobbying to clean up the divorce industry?  The fact is, none of that is going on.  They are not targetting any politicians or trying to change the law.  They do do a lot of hating though.  That pretty much is all they are full of.

[Sir Jessy of Anti]

No, I'm sorry but this is not correct.  Check out posts by kal147, s/he delineates this quite well.   Anyways, I'm sure you've heard more than enough from me on this subject.

[Pernicious]

Besides that: here is a tip. The only men the men's movement are gathering are victimized men. Men who were ripped in divorce; men who had their kids taken away from them; men in jail for being falsely accused of hitting or raping a woman. These men do not make good activists. The best activists are not victims. Victims, especially ones without any kind of resolve, only want to hate things. The only thing the kind of people they are picking up are good at is the start of a hate movement. Re-routing the image and purpose of the movement isn't just a matter of being ethical; it is a matter of being effective.

I have never been charged with any crimes. I have had a pretty lucky and fulfilling life.

I have a long-term girlfriend, and am looking at marriage very closely as it is the next step in our relationship. My girlfriend is amazing.

I am looking at things that other men do not see as being problems, men who are unjustly treated in current law.

I am looking at my friend who lost everything, and have commited suicide because they lost hope.

I am looking at stereotypes which are hurting the current and next generation, causing more problems for both Men and Women. What is going to happen when the single-parent children are of child-bearing age?

Just because I see problems, and am joining forces with a group of people who see similar, and other issues affecting humans.

[dr e]

Amber - You don't know a thing about what I do or don't do for men's rights.  Are you lumping me in with those you consider with a victim mentality that don't do anything?  I do hope not.  There are plenty more like me, probably many of the men on this board who are quite active in both lobbying and a variety of activites geared towards changing our crooked and sexist system.  And so what if those who have been victimized by an unjust system are angry?  WTF?  What are they supposed to do?  Be sweet and curtsy to the fembots?

When you speak of MRA's I think you are generalizing to an extreme.  Because a group on MND may have found you distasteful is no reason to judge the whole lot of us.

I shutter to think what you would have told Martin Luther King about his activism.  "No Martin, don't stand up for just the rights of your people, only individual rights should be fought for."

[Sir Jessy of Anti]

:lol:   Good one, Doc.

[The Gonzman]

For someone who has had her final say, she sure does it frequently.  

If I throw a stick, think she'll leave?

[LSBeene]

Damn Gonzo Kid ... are you RELATED to GONZO from MensActivism.org?  You two seem to come from the same bloodline.

"throw a stick"  :shock:

LMAO ... It was rude, maybe she deserved it, maybe not, and I know I shouldn't laugh.... but ... lol THAT was FUNNY.

[The Gonzman]

Damn Gonzo Kid ... are you RELATED to GONZO from MensActivism.org?  You two seem to come from the same bloodline.

Steve, I am one and the same.   :twisted:

The world isn't ready for two of me yet.

[closetrightyNYC]

Actually, a lot of feminazi activists are also victims.  The ones who will be like, "Well, this guy and this guy screwed me over, so I don't recommend dating, period."  I never really did agree with this mentality--I could have had it too since I too was screwed over and hurt a lot, but then I got lucky.  to me, that thinking is dangerously close to the "A black man shot my dad, so now I'm a white supremacist."   I'm not saying all MRA's have this mentality, just those who believe in "eradicating" marriage because theirs didn't work, or whatever.  The extremists.  And that includes feminists.