Return of the King

Started by Daymar, Dec 18, 2003, 03:51 PM

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Daymar

Attention: Small spoiler.

I saw this last night and thought it was a great movie for the most part. There was one scene that I thought was pretty dumb though. There's this girl who is the daughter of King Theodin. During a battle she gets attacked by a dragon and somehow manages to chop of it's head with her puny little sword even though she's skin and bones. But whatever, she's a heroine or something. That wasn't the part that bothered me. The part that bothered me regarded her fight against the immortal witch king who is the most powerful of the evil ring holders and which no man can kill (tolkien originally meant no huMAN, ie. the realm of men). So the girl and the witch king are fighting for awhile and I guess because she's a heroine that she isn't instantly butchered, ok that's fine. So after a little while the witch king decides to walk up to the girl for a little chat for no apparent reason. Keep in mind that she's wearing a helmet and you can't tell her gender at this point. He says, "silly little man, no man can kill me". While he's doing that up sneaks a hobbit behind the witch king and sticks him with his sword and he can hurt him because he's not a man (huMAN). And as the immortal witch king falls to his knees the girl takes off her helmet and says, "I am no man, woohoo girl power!" and sticks him in the head with her sword and he dies. Ok so I added in the "woohoo girl power" but it just annoys me that they had to do something so out of context in such a great movie. It's like a blemish on a great thing and it's obviously not in the book because that's not what Tolkien meant by 'man', he meant 'huMAN'. Am I alone on thinking this is stupid? I was so happy about how they managed to keep the first two movies without this kind of crap and just made them good movies.

The Gonzman

It was in the book.  Actually, I am very impressed with the way Pete Jackson did the movies with such faithfulness to the book.  Normally you'd see some of the main characters changed into token minorities, or gender switched, but not so.

And that scene was written long before the advent of Betty Friedan and the She-Man Male Hater's Club of feminism.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the Shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am the MEANEST son-of-a-bitch in the valley.

Daymar

Ah, you see I haven't read the books. I read the hobbit but never got around to LOTR, which I will now. Well I still think it's an odd scene. How can he call it 'the realm of men' and then make a difference between women and men in that scene?

Sir Jessy of Anti

He was trying to imply that the bad guy was a sissy?


P.S.  Thanks for spoiling the movie you guys!   :P
"The man who speaks to you of sacrifice, speaks of slaves and masters. And intends to be the master." -- Ayn Rand<br /><br />

Daymar

No he wasn't trying to imply that the immortal witch king who is the most powerful of all of the evil ring holders was a sissy. Gandalf makes note of that in the movie.

Sir Jessy of Anti

I guess more what I meant was that he could  have used this scene as the ultimate emasculation of the antagonist.  I'm just guessing!
"The man who speaks to you of sacrifice, speaks of slaves and masters. And intends to be the master." -- Ayn Rand<br /><br />

The Gonzman

Quote from: "Sir Jessy of Anti"
I guess more what I meant was that he could  have used this scene as the ultimate emasculation of the antagonist.  I'm just guessing!


It was a play on words.  Tolkein drew a lot upon both Norse and Celtic sopurces for much of the background material for his work, and a sudden shifting from an allegorical kenning to a literal meaning would have been found to be most amusing by both those cultures.  It comments on the hubris of the Witch King, going into battle believeing no mortal can kill him, when it just prophesies his death at the hands of a woman.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the Shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am the MEANEST son-of-a-bitch in the valley.

Matt

Gandalf predicts to Pippin that the Witch King will basically wipe out everyone at Minas Tirith all by his lonesome. And what brings him down? A poke in the back with Merry's sword and one thrust in the face from 110-pound Miranda Otto. WTF?  :lol:  If that's the best that The Nazgul could muster up, it's no wonder Mordor went down so easily.
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Daymar

Yeah the scene was just really weird. Here's this big bad witch king on a dragon weilding this brutal morning star and this skinny little girl kills them both with a little sword and some help from a skinny midget with a short sword.

Matt

On a side note though, the initial attack of the fell beast-riding Nazgul on Minas Tirith (fell beasts picking people up off the upper levels and dumping them all the way down to the ground) was one of the most visually stunning sequences in cinematic history. In fact, that whole sequence -- from the trebuchet attacks to the Ride of the Rohirrim to the oliphants to the eagle battles -- just blew me away. If nothing else, ROTK should pick up the Best Cinematography Oscar.
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Matt

I'll spot Peter Jackson the scene we're talking about though. It was a nice treat for all the girls whose fanboy boyfriends made them sit through the 12-hour trilogy with them Tuesday. And the guys can't complain; it is true to the book  8)
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Daymar

I couldn't believe that movie was 201 mins long, 3 hours 21 minutes. Didn't seem that long though, I guess because it was so good.

Matt

Plus the 15 minutes of previews beforehand. I didn't get out of the theater and into my car until 3:45 AM Wednesday morning. And I had to wake up three hours later to go to work.

Yeesh...I'm a geek...
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Sir Jessy of Anti

Quote

It was a play on words.  Tolkein drew a lot upon both Norse and Celtic sopurces for much of the background material for his work, and a sudden shifting from an allegorical kenning to a literal meaning would have been found to be most amusing by both those cultures.  It comments on the hubris of the Witch King, going into battle believeing no mortal can kill him, when it just prophesies his death at the hands of a woman.


Ah, yeah now that you mention it that triggers bells for some reason.
I must have read the books when I was young, because I was hit by deja vu all over the place when I saw the other two.
"The man who speaks to you of sacrifice, speaks of slaves and masters. And intends to be the master." -- Ayn Rand<br /><br />

Daymar

Interesting that you don't remember reading them.

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