Return of the King

[Agraitear]

In his letters, Tolkien stated he hated allegory. He wrote nothing to stand for anything in his works. The ring was not the A-Bomb, Gondor was not the U.S., the Shire was not England. Tolkien did not write to make a 1 to 1 relationship between the real word and anything in Middle Earth. He made that very clear in his letters that were published.

He drew from his background as Professor of Anglo-Saxon at Oxford for much of his world. The Rohan are based heavily on the Saxons, not the Vikings. "Eowin" is old Saxon for "horse joy," for example.

The elves fighting at Helms Deep was ONLY in the movie. It did not happen in the books. Helms deep was defended by the Roherrim only.

The fact the people can read so much into the story from recent history and their own lives is a testament to the work, not an intent of Tolkien.

He also began the first book before WW2, sometime in the 30's. I'm sorry I do not remember the exact date.

[Phebe]

It is true Tolkien started the first volume in the 30s; he was a veteran of WWI himself, of course. But the very warlike volumes were finished after WWII.

The ring was not the A-Bomb, Gondor was not the U.S., the Shire was not England. Tolkien did not write to make a 1 to 1 relationship between the real word and anything in Middle Earth. He made that very clear in his letters that were published.

Well, that's your opinion. As far as I know Tolkien never opposed those correspondences explicitly. And they are pretty obvious!

As for the interesting A-bomb ---- people have assumed the Ring of Power was the atom bomb since the moment the book came out. And certainly it is very seductive......how else to conquer and destroy a whole world? Certainly that was our solution to the problem, and the Russian's. Remember those were the days of MAD, Mutual Assured Destruction: everyone expected to end their lives in a radioactive wasteland. Peter Jackson did a wonderful thing in the first movie, showing the bomb-like destruction radiating out from the monster warrior Sauron in a circle, like a ring.

All these things are there, but I think Tolkien didn't want them to be the ONLY things that are there. He must have known better than most what context is lost over the centuries; he didn't want that to happen to his book. I reread Beowulf lately (the new parallel translation) and of all the incomprehensible Old English, there was one line that was clear even now --- I think it was "And his queen walked beside him." The spelling was different, but I thought, migod, it IS English after all! Tolkien wanted his work to stand with all context lost, I think, in a far distant future with no A-bombs, where the Ring of Power would stand for the desire for absolute power, which is plenty evil enough whether A-bombs exist or not.

The Rohan are based heavily on the Saxons, not the Vikings. "Eowin" is old Saxon for "horse joy," for example.

They are the Scots? I love it.    Peter Jackson played them as Vikings, but I think you are right. There is no reason Tolkien wouldn't have brought in the people he knew most about (more than anyone in the world, possibly). Good, I agree, I  think I'll switch that idea out.

The elves fighting at Helms Deep was ONLY in the movie. It did not happen in the books. Helms deep was defended by the Roherrim only.

I believe you are right, really. I hadn't recalled that was in the book and had been worrying about that. But it was great in the movie! Wow. I cry everytime that Elflord is killed. It worked, but I have wondered why they didn't help again, in front of Gondor, if they were committed at Helm's Deep. Jackson's answer might be that they were moving swiftly into the West by then --- Rivendell is nearly emptied and autumn is its theme.

[Q]

Good catch - I had missed that line.

As to the various links, such as the USA, etc.  Phebes, you really over estimate the importance of the USA to Tolkien.

The hobbits relate to the English farmers.  Gondor relates to the upper class.

They were technologically advanced over other men

Wrong - Saruman , ring wraithes

they had more soldiers, better equipped.

True, but they were the city of the guard.  They had been at war for the last x years.

They were richer.

In what terms?  They were very poor, land wise.  

the United States' role in "saving" Europe from --- Mordor and Sauron and Saruman

No direct parallel.  In order for this to exist, Gondor would have had to sit in a corner for half the war.
No traitor equivilent to saurman.
Mordor never took peoples land (they were stopped before this) unlike the germans.
Define saving.  You helped end the war, yes.  but we've been fighting wars here in Europe for more than 2,000 years.  What makes you think your "help" was needed?  
Ring wraiths....nothing even close to related.

made a deep impression on Europeans, particularly Britons

No...really?  And where do you get this idea from?  Most of Europe dislikes the USA, upto actual hate.  Yep, I'd say thats an impression.  Is it the one you want?

I suggest Tolkien showed no sympathy for Gondor in his writing, either.

So thats why Dunadan HAD that name?  Or his linage?  Or fate?  No sympathy - he describes a golden age for them (in the end, and the appendices).

they brought Arab-types into the mix,

Quote please.  With chapter/page if you would be so kind.

he was a veteran of WWI himself, of course

Are you sure?  Please prove.

As far as I know Tolkien never opposed those correspondences explicitly. And they are pretty obvious!

Well, an A bomb can be used by anyone, not just it's maker.  An A bonb does not effect the owners of other such weapons.   they do not currupt the owner, or grant any special powers.  

I'll let you try and answer these, while I get some sleep.  More for you tomorrow.

[MacKenzie]

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he was a veteran of WWI himself, of course

Are you sure?  Please prove.

This is truth - Tolkein was a WWI veteran. He was at The Battle of The Sonne and saw the loss of many of his school friends.

Much of his experiences during WWI shaped his conception of LOTR's anti-war subtext.

There is a book called "Tolkein and The Great War" which explains much more about this time in his life and how it affected him.

[Agraitear]

Well, that's your opinion. As far as I know Tolkien never opposed those correspondences explicitly. And they are pretty obvious!

As for the interesting A-bomb ---- people have assumed the Ring of Power was the atom bomb since the moment the book came out. And certainly it is very seductive......how else to conquer and destroy a whole world? Certainly that was our solution to the problem, and the Russian's. Remember those were the days of MAD, Mutual Assured Destruction: everyone expected to end their lives in a radioactive wasteland...

Again, that people can draw parallels between Tolkiens work and the "modern" world is a testament to the work. Because it seems obvious, does not make it true.

In Tolkiens own words:

"As for any inner meaning or message, it has in the intention of the author, none. It is neither allegorical nor topical." [LotR p.2 preface to 2nd edition],

"There is no 'allegory', moral, political or contemporary in the work at all." [Letters p.232]

So if you see any parallels, you are putting them there, like in a rorshack (sp?) ink blot. Tolkien never intended it and has stated it so, several times.

The Saxons are not just the Scots. The Saxons settled across the whole of England. In 1066 Willliam the Conquerer (a Norman) defeated the Saxons and became ruler of England. (I know this is much more complex, I am going for brevity here to clarify the decendants of the Saxons.)

[Q]

<Looks for second edition, so he can read the preface>