Return of the King

Started by Daymar, Dec 18, 2003, 03:51 PM

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Sir Jessy of Anti

Yeah, I guess that would have been about 15 years ago.
"The man who speaks to you of sacrifice, speaks of slaves and masters. And intends to be the master." -- Ayn Rand<br /><br />

Gabriel

Quote from: "Gonzokid"
It was in the book.  Actually, I am very impressed with the way Pete Jackson did the movies with such faithfulness to the book.  Normally you'd see some of the main characters changed into token minorities, or gender switched, but not so.

And that scene was written long before the advent of Betty Friedan and the She-Man Male Hater's Club of feminism.


It is not that it wasn't in the book that bothered me, it is the twist or different light that Pete Jackson puts on it.  The book gave you no sense of girl power, the chick was getting her ass whopped, her arm was broken, and the witch king was walking up to end her quickly when some already had its ass kicked and thought dead hobbitt sticks his sword through his leg which distracts the witch king long enough for said chica to recover and slam the king in the face with her sword.

The movie put the spin on it where the girl was saying with pride that she is not a man and at the same time making it as if she were insulted to be called a man. Kinda like if she said "I am no dog." I could hear the collective creaming of the pants of all the lesbians.

Phebe

I think you all are overreacting. I saw it again this weekend and didn't see all that in that scene. It is indeed original Tolkien, and in my opinion is simply a variation on the scene in Macbeth, where Macbeth says he can't be killed by man of woman born, and Macduff informs him he came into the world by Caesarean section, thus not of woman born, in a normal sense in those days.

Older fiction is full of exceptions like this, where the assumption made is that usual rules prevail, but somehow and magically, they don't. Achilles Heel would be another --- that's where he was hit, finally, despite being protected otherwise, and died of it.

So like Macduff, the Nazgul king assumed the battlefield was filled with men and knew he was safe against men, but the foretelling that gave him confidence was tricksy, since the way he would meet his end was from a woman, not a man.

Q

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Normally you'd see some of the main characters changed into token minorities, or gender switched, but not so.


*Cough* Glorfindel  * Cough*

While the scene presented is similar to what is writen, it is not the same.  In the film there is a hint  of "grrl power".  You can't deny this.  And when you consider that in the book, this caused a deadly illness (that only Aragorn can cure) as a consequence, which was not included in the film....

And while it is a variation on the old tale of prophecy being a two edged sword, this is not unusual.  It does not seem to deserve the extra screen time it seems to get, when compared to the other gapping holes which are left.

For example - would it have taken long to return to Faramir the role of "last redeming light of the house of Stewards"?  Nope.  But he's insted played as a power hungry brute...completely inacurately.

So yes, there are grounds to say that the film was changed in a manner to portray women more favourably and men less so.

dr e

Phebe - I think you are missing Gabriel's point.  He was pointing out that there was a spin put onto the scene that was absent from the intent of the book.   If that is what Gabriel meant I completely agree.  I just don't think you have eyes to see it.
Contact dr e  Lifeboats for the ladies and children, icy waters for the men.  Women have rights and men have responsibilties.

Gabriel

Doc, you stated my point succintly. The camera shot while she proudly states that she is not a man coming from below up to her face gave the effect as much as her tone of voice and facial expression. The lighting from behind (if I remember it from December right) gave her an angelic/goddess glow to - all this combined to grrl power.

Phebe

I hear you, but I still think it was a fictional "gotcha" and faithful to the book. King Nazgul had himself one of those weasel-words predictions so favored in older fiction, that he assumed made him indestructible on that battlefield --- but as usual with villains, he was wrong in that assumption.

Good point about Faramir's downgrading, and I've seen that criticism before. He and Eowyn get together in the book, IIRC, and settle outside the kingdom ruled by Aragorn, for political reasons. That is left out. As for Aragorn's King's Touch, that was probably a good omission. But again it does hark back to older fiction, as Tolkien so often does.

Q

well, lets have a little look at the charactors?

1) Faramir - covered, very negative role
2) gandolf - presented as a desperate drug abuser for some time
3) glorfindel - removed
4) the steward of minas tirith - presented as downright evil
5) aragorn - present as a broken man, who makes good only because of a women.  Also presented only as a warrior/king, not as a healer...
6)elrond - pesimistic, untrusting (out of charactor)

6) Arwen - given an expanded, positive role, that silly thing with HER being able to help in any way at all with the fragment of the morgul knife.
7) Eowyn - covered, more positive role

8) galadrial - unchanged from her position of power.

So yes, I thing it's clear that the film had certain....alterations to please people, mainly dragging down the male human side.

--
Eowyn and faramir  get together, and are given the princedom of ithillien , because he was a friend, ally, political, to maintain a guard on the morgul vale etc.  to say it was political.....is to ignore most of the story.

Mr Benn

I think that scene definitely played as a "grrl power" scene, and that is the way most cinema-goers would have perceived it.

Also, the female screen-writers would have been absolutely aware that that is how it would be perceived.
ww.CoolTools4Men.com

Phebe

1) Faramir - covered, very negative role

It was somewhat different, paralleling his brother Boromir, but whereas Boromir did fall to greed for the Ring, Faramir still did not, book or movie. The part about Faramir attacking Osgiliath hopelessly was not negative.

2) gandolf - presented as a desperate drug abuser for some time

WHAT?? Can you defend that?? I saw no drugs of any kind!! Galdalf was surely the strongest male figure in the movie. Substantially stronger than in the book!

3) glorfindel - removed

Well, so was the hospital in Minas Tirith. And that was a woman's part.

4) the steward of minas tirith - presented as downright evil

I thought that was fair and like the book. "Thus passes Denethor." He was certainly not a heroic figure; he was a villain because of corruption and serious character weakness. Not to mention madness.

5) aragorn - present as a broken man, who makes good only because of a women. Also presented only as a warrior/king, not as a healer...

The healer stuff was completely dispensible; Tolkien himself only put it in for historical reasons of validating Aragorn's kingship. Much politics about that point --- remember the care they took about Aragorn coming into the city as the missing King? It was, of course, a coup d'etat given Aragorn's very dubious and unproven lineage. Peter Jackson deals with this interesting issue of legitimacy by simply using the sword that was broken (fair enough!). He dispenses with all the other supporting reasons such as the healing powers of a King's Touch. Tolkien could not dispense with these,  because of the centuries of pretenders and coups that troubled England and Scotland's thrones; the issue of legitimacy is huge in British history. But it isn't in moviemaking! We were glad to accept Aragorn as the king without further ado. Nobody remembers the healing of a King's Touch here. It would have to be explained! But in Britain, it would not need explaining in Tolkien's time --- it was an obvious legitimitizer.

Your other point is interesting, but I can't see all of what you mean? In what way does Aragorn only make good because of a woman? Arwen MAY save him when the warg plunges him over a cliff in Two Towers; the provenance of that dream is not at all clear.

Elrond brings him the sword, reforged, and that is Arwen's doing indeed, and is essential for winning over the Army of the Dead. And that is not at all Tolkien --- IIRC, the sword was reforged without fuss at the nine's very first stay in Rivendell. You have a point there.

6)elrond - pesimistic, untrusting (out of charactor)

Brilliant, though. Hugo Black is a dream. He is hands-down my favorite character in the movies. He has a fey and gallant quality that just really works. Incredibly sexy.

6) Arwen - given an expanded, positive role, that silly thing with HER being able to help in any way at all with the fragment of the morgul knife.

Yes, many agree with you: she had basically no role at all in Tolkien's books. The romance was very mysterious and Arwen appears only once, at a ceremonial occasion, IIRC. Still, I think it was a reasonably good decision. There is no use in this great work (I refer to the movies) being all-male ---- they did need women in it. And Jackson DID keep the central issue, her immortality given up for a mortal, a mortal who was in danger of going down with all humanity.

7) Eowyn - covered, more positive role

I didn't think it was more positive at all. Mostly she mopes around over Aragorn, more than in the book even. And her courtship and marriage to Faramir is totally eliminated, which as a woman I hate: you definitely want that settled, and it isn't; she is pretty much abandoned by the plot on the field with her dead father. Other than her role being restricted, I thought it was pretty close to the book. The father thing when he is bewitched, leading her people into the mountain, riding to war in disguise with Merry, and as you know, I thought there was little difference between the book and the movie in the battle scene --- I think they even quoted the book lines, right?

galadrial - unchanged from her position of power.

No, wrong, power is exactly what Galadriel does NOT have --- she gave that up in my all-time favorite scene. "I have passed the test. I will fade, and go into the West --------- and remain Galadriel." She never has power; like them all, she only has hope. Elrond has much more saliency in the movies than Galadriel. Though I think Tolkien meant her to be more powerful than Elrond; she had a Ring of Power. The movie did put in an extra scene where she encourages Frodo after he uses the Light of Elbereth, in a sort of magic transport fantasy. I didn't like that; in general, messing with Tolkien is to depreciate the dramatic unities.

So yes, I thing it's clear that the film had certain....alterations to please people, mainly dragging down the male human side.

Building up the women's side, a little, which Tolkien neglected, I would say! Women buy movie tickets too, you know.
--
Eowyn and faramir get together, and are given the princedom of ithillien , because he was a friend, ally, political, to maintain a guard on the morgul vale etc. to say it was political.....is to ignore most of the story.

No, no, go back and look ---------- I am interested in politics and so I noticed this especially because of Tolkien's serious issues with the legitimacy of Aragorn's kingship. The book makes it plain that the heir to the Stewards of Gondor, who long held the city, basically had to be banished to secure Aragorn's rule. The two were not unfriendly, and we assume an alliance of these kingdoms in the future, but Faramir played no part in the Conquest of Sauron because of being near death the whole time, and he was a potential political rival to Aragorn. Again, Tolkien's deep feeling for British history necessitated clearing the two of them out of the way of the throne of Gondor. Powerful dukes of York and Lancaster lurking about the throne has never really worked well in Britain. Tolkien knew that, so he helped out Aragorn by getting rid of the woman who loved him and his challenger at once, by marrying them and sending them to a distant princedom.

Another Tolkien junkie! Bravo.   :)

dr e

Phebe said:
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Building up the women's side, a little, which Tolkien neglected, I would say! Women buy movie tickets too, you know.


Riiight.  There weren't any Samoans in the original Tolkien.  Why not build up that side too?  The point is that they have indeed altered the original to please women and gilrs.
Contact dr e  Lifeboats for the ladies and children, icy waters for the men.  Women have rights and men have responsibilties.

Mr. Nickle

:shock:

Where to begin?

Quote
1) Faramir - covered, very negative role
It was somewhat different, paralleling his brother Boromir, but whereas Boromir did fall to greed for the Ring, Faramir still did not, book or movie.

In the book Faramir let's them go. In the movie he tries to take them home because he wants to give the ring to his da-da. That would be falling to greed for the ring. Faramir is not supposed to parallel his brother - he is supposed to contrast Boromir.

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WHAT?? Can you defend that?? I saw no drugs of any kind!! Galdalf was surely the strongest male figure in the movie. Substantially stronger than in the book!

Saruman mocks Gandalf saying that his love of the halfling leaf must have slowed his mind.


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3) glorfindel - removed

Well, so was the hospital in Minas Tirith. And that was a woman's part.

Glorfindel's part was given to Arwen.

Quote
4) the steward of minas tirith - presented as downright evil

I thought that was fair and like the book. "Thus passes Denethor." He was certainly not a heroic figure; he was a villain because of corruption and serious character weakness. Not to mention madness.

Fair? I did not talk to one person who read the book who thought that was a fair interpretation. He was not a villian in the book but a once-great and noble man who fell to despair because of Sauron's influence through the seeing stone. (Sauron only let Denethor see what he wanted him to) He is supposed to be a cautionary character not a slobbering disgusting wretch. He was presented as more disgusting than wormtongue.

Quote
5) aragorn - present as a broken man, who makes good only because of a women. Also presented only as a warrior/king, not as a healer...

The healer stuff was completely dispensible;

Yeah you're right. They should have disposed with his incredible fighting ability and his strong leadership and his willingness to do anything to save his friends too. :roll:  His ability to heal is a key facet to his character.


Quote
6)elrond - pesimistic, untrusting (out of charactor)

Brilliant, though. Hugo Black is a dream. He is hands-down my favorite character in the movies. He has a fey and gallant quality that just really works. Incredibly sexy.

This was one of the most dissappointing things in the whole movie for me. Aragorn is like a son to him in the books - in the movie he has nothing but thinly veiled hatred for all men and tries to split up Aragorn and his daughter. Being petty and conniving were not character traits of Elrond in the books. Why would anyone go to Elrond for advice to save the world if he has nothing but contempt for the other races. Very strange behaviour for someone who is half-human. He is, afterall, Elrond HalfElven.
I do agree with you, however, Phebe, that Hugo Black played the role as it was written for him with his usual excellence.

Quote
6) Arwen - given an expanded, positive role, that silly thing with HER being able to help in any way at all with the fragment of the morgul knife.

Yes, many agree with you: she had basically no role at all in Tolkien's books. The romance was very mysterious and Arwen appears only once, at a ceremonial occasion, IIRC. Still, I think it was a reasonably good decision. There is no use in this great work (I refer to the movies) being all-male ---- they did need women in it. And Jackson DID keep the central issue, her immortality given up for a mortal, a mortal who was in danger of going down with all humanity.

The movie would have been fine without having action heroines, just like the book was. Why didn't we see people demanding male heroes in the Charlie's Angles movies? Arwen would have been better left being mysterious and magical - kinda like the original jaws - the less you see the more powerful it was.

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7) Eowyn - covered, more positive role

I didn't think it was more positive at all. Mostly she mopes around over Aragorn, more than in the book even. And her courtship and marriage to Faramir is totally eliminated, which as a woman I hate: you definitely want that settled, and it isn't; she is pretty much abandoned by the plot on the field with her dead father. Other than her role being restricted, I thought it was pretty close to the book. The father thing when he is bewitched, leading her people into the mountain, riding to war in disguise with Merry, and as you know, I thought there was little difference between the book and the movie in the battle scene --- I think they even quoted the book lines, right?

I think they really could not decide how to portray Eowyn. I agree with Phebe that they had her whining like a 12-year-old with a crush. Very not inspiring. Then to contrast that they have her chopping down battle elephants and out-swording Aragorn. I would have liked to have seen her portrayed as the powerful, wise, respected, noble woman admired and loved by her people. Phebe, I was also let down with the way they just glossed over her relationship with Faramir. The book made her a very strong character - the movie version kinda fell down. BTW Theoden is her uncle not her father. Tolkein junkie my ass  :P

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galadrial - unchanged from her position of power.

No, wrong, power is exactly what Galadriel does NOT have --- she gave that up in my all-time favorite scene. "I have passed the test. I will fade, and go into the West --------- and remain Galadriel." She never has power; like them all, she only has hope. Elrond has much more saliency in the movies than Galadriel. Though I think Tolkien meant her to be more powerful than Elrond; she had a Ring of Power. The movie did put in an extra scene where she encourages Frodo after he uses the Light of Elbereth, in a sort of magic transport fantasy.

Galadriel has no power? She uses the power of her ring to hide and protect her people from Sauron.  Just because she's not chopping off orc heads does not mean she's not powerful. She was the most powerful woman in the movie. Arwen was a silly little girl - Galadriel was a powerful woman.
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I didn't like that; in general, messing with Tolkien is to depreciate the dramatic unities.

How do you reconcile this statement with your ones above where you say major changes to the key characters are ok?
Don't mention the war! - Basil Fawlty

MacKenzie

Quote from: "Mr. Nickle"
:shock:

Where to begin?

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WHAT?? Can you defend that?? I saw no drugs of any kind!! Galdalf was surely the strongest male figure in the movie. Substantially stronger than in the book!


Saruman mocks Gandalf saying that his love of the halfling leaf must have slowed his mind.


You do realize that "halfling leaf" is just plain old tobacco?  :lol:

Besides, it isn't Gandalf's love for smoking "leaf" that Saruman is mocking, but for Gandalf's love for the people of Hobbiton (and Middle Earth). Saruman grew to despise such sentimental attitudes in his quest to gain power.
FEMINISM IS A CULT THAT TRIES TO MAKE BOTH SEXES EQUAL BY FOCUSING SOLELY ON ONE OF THEM

Mr. Nickle

Yes I know that. I was just pointing to where he was ridiculed for it. Maybe he was smoking that other halfling leaf - you know.... wink, wink, They do say marijuana can stunt your growth you know. That might explain Hobbits. :D
Don't mention the war! - Basil Fawlty

Phebe

It's Pipe-weed.

From a Web site on the Ring: "Gandalf is the most talented smoker as he is able to puff the best smoke rings and do some pretty darn cool tricks with them! Gimli apparently is also a big smoker as can be seen by the gratitude that he showed to Merry and Pippin for giving him some Pipe-weed and a pipe at Isengard. Aragorn's suspicion war roused by the fact that Saruman somehow received Pipe-weed from the Shire."

Gandalf a drug user indeed! You sure surprised me with that one.  :D

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