OT: Operation GunRunner

Started by K9, Jul 20, 2011, 04:07 AM

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neoteny

Quote
The spotlight was now moving toward senior Justice officials, including Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. The attorney general told Issa that he did not learn about Fast and Furious until this spring. President Obama had said that Holder told him he would not have allowed guns to go into Mexico.


Holder told Obama when? After the shit hit the fan? What was expected of him, to fall on his sword? Why would he do that when nobody takes responsibility for a clusterfuck sized like this?
The spreading of information about the [quantum] system through the [classical] environment is ultimately responsible for the emergence of "objective reality." 

Wojciech Hubert Zurek: Decoherence, einselection, and the quantum origins of the classical

Quentin0352

Didn't say the NRA deserved the credit, only they had a lot of good info on it. They have even credited the proper people for uncovering and pressing the issue. You may want to take a look at their coverage.

Interesting enough, the head of the BATFE willingly testified before congress on a HOLIDAY, on his own time, with his own lawyer and against the orders of the DOJ who had been fighting to keep from anyone having to testify. He even flat stated he had been told to refuse and he was pissed too since the DOJ was fighting him on releasing information that had been suponeaed and even ignoring his requests for info.

Cordell Walker


Didn't say the NRA deserved the credit, only they had a lot of good info on it. They have even credited the proper people for uncovering and pressing the issue. You may want to take a look at their coverage.

Interesting enough, the head of the BATFE willingly testified before congress on a HOLIDAY, on his own time, with his own lawyer and against the orders of the DOJ who had been fighting to keep from anyone having to testify. He even flat stated he had been told to refuse and he was pissed too since the DOJ was fighting him on releasing information that had been suponeaed and even ignoring his requests for info.


you are referring to Melson, of course, and his testimony on july 4th

I havent looked on the NRA-ILA site in a few months. Only in the past year and a half have I cooled toward the NRA. IMO they are too given to compromise(they DID support the GCA of 1968, which was an almost verbaitum copy of the german 1938 weapons act), and I have heard it claimed that not only the NRA but the sturm-ruger corporation, supported clintons 94 rifle ban. Allegedly, according to some, Ruger was all for the AWB because it would boost sales of the mini-14 .223, which in my opinion is fucking stupid on ruger's part if it is true, because every american gun owner KNOWS that ruger makes products that are the cream of the crop and can stand on their own merits.
But back to the subject at hand..............the scandal has gone nationwide, and now there are questions about ATF-smuggled firearms going to MS-13 in houndures
"how can you kill women and children?"---private joker
"Easy, ya just dont lead em as much" ---Animal Mother

FP

Some history on Bill Ruger Sr. and the assault weapons ban:

http://www.thegunzone.com/rkba/papabill.html

Quentin0352

Just to note, I was also very involved in politics back then with guns and an NRA member back then, I can assure you that they were NOT for the bans and while I disagree with Ruger and SAAMI as well as others supporting any additional restrictions, the political reality of the period was pretty grim. Bush Sr. had resigned his life long membership in the NRA after they correctly pointed out the BATF were a bunch of "jack-booted thugs" in going after a bunch of innocent dealers and people who were mostly cleared at trial under problems like entrapment, the anti-gun politicians and groups were making major progress with the help of the media all over the place about "plastic" guns able to pass through metal detectors, claims the Eagle Black Talon bullets were able to slice through a police vest like butter, news all over constantly showing full auto guns and claiming they were the semi-autos people were buying and much more. So I disagreed with the tactic of those two but can actually understand their reasoning and political realities at the time. Remember, this was also when we had things like Ruby Ridge, the Waco mess, a nutbag killer in California and more hitting all at once and the media as well as many well funded anti-gun groups were taking full advantage of it. Add in that Clinton was scum but he was a VERY good speaker and slick politician who was using his podium to push also and it is no surprise some businesses took a survival tactic in a panic.

Just my bit from remembering those years and also knowing what it cost us during as well as after then in problems. Then again, feminist and the anti-gun groups are both well financed with tax money to help on top of no morals in using lies to get their agenda passed to allow them double standards. They also both get a lot of support from the media which is why the NRA has also done TV shows they had to buy the air time for, has their own tv website for shows and etc. The normal media just won't even talk to them or edits things so heavily that the NRA was wasting a ton on getting the full interviews out demonstrating they were not actually supporting all these new gun laws or bans the editing would make it look like.

neoteny


U.S. guns agency chief reassigned after botched sting
By Jeremy Pelofsky | Reuters


WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The head of the agency that oversaw a botched attempt to track arms flowing to drug cartels in Mexico is being reassigned to Justice Department headquarters, the Obama administration said on Tuesday.

Kenneth Melson, who has been acting director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, has been under fire and admitted mistakes in the sting operation meant to try to crack down on the flow of weapons to violent drug gangs.

He will be reassigned to the Justice Department's Office of Legal Policy as an adviser on forensic science, the Justice Department said. The attorney for Minnesota, Todd Jones, will serve as acting ATF director.

In further fallout from the operation, the attorney for Arizona, Dennis Burke, has resigned and the lead prosecutor on that case in the office has been reassigned, according to an administration official.

Another administration official said this is a chance for a "fresh start given everything they've gone through lately" at ATF.

The operation, dubbed "Fast and Furious," has spawned congressional and internal Justice Department probes and put the Obama administration on the defensive about whether dangerous weapons were knowingly allowed to cross the border.

Republicans in the U.S. Congress have been demanding the Obama administration explain who knew what and when about the ATF program, which was conceived of and run out of the agency's Phoenix division.

Authorities had hoped they would be able to follow the guns to cartel leaders, but ATF agents did not track the weapons after they were transferred from the initial buyer to others. Some agents have said they were not allowed to continue the pursuit.

Instead, numerous weapons from the operation, which began in late 2009 and ran through 2010, have shown up at crime scenes in Mexico and the United States.

U.S. Border Patrol agent Brian Terry died in a December 2010 shootout on the American side of the border and two guns found there have been traced to the sting. It is not yet known if those guns were used to fire the fatal shots.

Mexican authorities have complained bitterly about the thousands of guns that cross the border from the United States each year and want Washington to do more to stem the flow.

President Barack Obama has nominated a permanent director for ATF, Andrew Traver of the agency's Chicago office, but the gun industry has opposed him. Melson is a career federal employee.

Melson took the unusual step of being interviewed on the July 4 holiday by congressional investigators. During those discussions he acknowledged mistakes had been made and other law enforcement agencies had had critical information that they did not share about their targets.
The spreading of information about the [quantum] system through the [classical] environment is ultimately responsible for the emergence of "objective reality." 

Wojciech Hubert Zurek: Decoherence, einselection, and the quantum origins of the classical

Virtue

Must be nice !
Imagine waking up tomorrow to find
that unbelievably rape is now legal.

You would be freaking out, telling everyone you ran into this is crazy- something needs to be done... now!!! And then every man you told this to just very smugly and condescendingly says...

"Hey... not all men are 'like that.'"

CaptDMO

Quote
Authorities had hoped they would be able to follow the guns to cartel leaders, but ATF agents did not track the weapons after they were transferred from the initial buyer to others. Some agents have said they were not allowed to continue the pursuit.

Really?
Nothing about a certain cocaine/marijuana "cartel" getting a blind-eye pass at the US boarder?
No "revisions" on the Obama/Reno et. al. proclamations that 90 percent of the guns (including full-auto) in Mexico coming from US retail "straw purchase" dealers?

So what about the rest of the folks that have been "laterally promoted" to some dark, windowless office in DC, on a MUCH shorter leash to (unindicted co-conspiritor?) folk stonewalling Congressional inquiry?  Any OTHER whistle blowers have retaliatory tales to tell about expressing their concerns to 
their should-have-known "appointed" administrators?
   

neoteny


AG Under Fire Over 'Fast and Furious': When Did He Know About Program?
By Pierre Thomas | ABC News


Congressional Republicans today released additional Justice Department memos to the Attorney General Eric Holder about a controversial gun trafficking investigation  which they say are evidence Holder misled them. The Justice Department rejected the claims, suggesting Congressional Republicans are playing traditional Washington gotcha politics, without the gotcha.

The "BACKSTORY":

In September 2009 , the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms launched an investigation targeting some Phoenix area suspected gun runners who had been supplying weapons to a Mexican cartel.  But ATF decide to employ what would turn out to be a very controversial strategy: federal agents  would allow guns to "walk"-- or flow into  Mexico - while ATF tried to identify and charge upper level cartel members who were buying the guns. The huge problem: the guns turned up in numerous crime scenes in Mexico, including murders. And at least one of the weapons was recovered at the scene where a U.S. Border Patrol agent was gunned down.

Attorney General Holder maintained he did not know the specifics of the strategy when pressed at a Congressional hearing last spring.

Rep. Darell Issa, R-Calif., who is spearheading the Congressional investigation, asked Holder, "When did you first know about the program officially, I believe, called Fast and Furious? To the best of your knowledge, what date?"

Holder answered: "I'm not sure of the exact date, but I probably heard about Fast and Furious for the first time over the last few weeks."

But today,  Issa and Sen. Chuck Grassley, R-Iowa,  released at least five weekly memos to Holder beginning in July 2010, that provide updates on Operation Fast and Furious.  The memos lay out that ATF and a number of other agencies were investigating Phoenix area straw buyers who were "responsible for the purchase of 1500 firearms that were then supplied to Mexican drug trafficking cartels."

"With the fairly detailed information that the Attorney General read, it seems the logical question for the Attorney General after reading in the memo would be 'why haven't we stopped them?'" Grassley said.  "And if he didn't ask the questions, why didn't he or somebody in his office?"

"Attorney General Holder has failed to give Congress and the American people an honest account of what he and other senior Justice Department officials knew about gunwalking and Operation Fast and Furious," Issa said. " The lack of candor and honesty from our nation's chief law enforcement officials in this matter is deeply disturbing."

Justice Department officials say the memos are only generic updates and offer no detail or specifics of ATF strategy's to allow the guns to pass in large numbers.  Justice Department spokeswoman Tracy Schmaler offered an aggressive rebuttal.

"Here they go again.  Chairman Issa and Senator Grassley can re-package and re-release the same documents every other day and it won't change the facts: the Attorney General's testimony to both the House and Senate committees has been consistent and truthful," Schmaler said.

"These brief entries buried in a few written reports reveal nothing of the dangerous tactics that were employed in this operation, and apparently, another operation during the Bush Administration.  Instead of peddling selectively-edited transcripts and distorting questions and answers in some distracting political game of gotcha, these congressional leaders should be focusing their attention on the underlying public safety problem we confront as a Nation - that too many guns are being illegally trafficked to Mexico.

"There are thousands of these types of investigations going on at any given time across this country and rather than focusing on whether the Attorney General read about or could recall the name of one of those district operations mentioned a few times in 100-plus page report sent to his staff over a year ago, Chairman Issa and Senator Grassley would do better to conduct legitimate oversight."

"When the Attorney General first learned of these troubling tactics in early 2011, he took swift and substantive action by asking the Inspector General to investigate the matter and making sure agents and prosecutors in field knew that such tactics violated Department policy and would not be tolerated.  If Congress wants to conduct real oversight on behalf of the American people, they should follow the Attorney General's lead and treat this problem with the seriousness and substance it deserves."

Today President Obama defended Holder after a question from ABC's Jake Tapper.

"- I have complete confidence in Attorney General Holder in how he handles his office," the president said. "He has been very aggressive in going after gun-running and cash transactions that are going to these transnational drug cartels in Mexico...   I think both he and I would have been very unhappy if somebody had suggested that guns were allowed to pass through that could have been prevented by the United States of America."

----

I thought women aren't aggressive, they make everything work out smoothly and perfectly, no need to behave like they're poisoned with testosterone...

Tracy Schmaler is a partisan cunt, someone who learned all about bullshitting in high school (and apparently she screams at reporters) and a bitch like her is the spokeswoman for the Justice Department?!  :angryfire:
The spreading of information about the [quantum] system through the [classical] environment is ultimately responsible for the emergence of "objective reality." 

Wojciech Hubert Zurek: Decoherence, einselection, and the quantum origins of the classical

K9

Quote
....another operation during the Bush Administration.


Bush started GunRunner, but didn't authorize, and there's no evidence of, guns being allowed to pass the border. The Dems keep saying that..."Well, Bush did it too", like a little kid with their hand in the cookie jar. That's what these people in DC are....little kids that were never corrected, or corrected sternly enough about lying and deceiving. Hell, the Obama administration reminds me of episodes of I Love Lucy from the 50's where Lucy (Tricky Ricky) comes up with a devious plan, deceptions and falsehoods, to get what she wants. I Love Lucy, starring Obama and Holder as Lucy and Ethel.
Explaining misandry to a feminist is like explaining "wet" to a fish.

Quentin0352

Holder also pointed out that the head of the BATF had stated he didn't know what was going on as a way to prove he wouldn't have either. But it ignores that same leader left after it broke out, testified on his own time with his own lawyer instead of a DoJ lawyer and against the wishes of Holder and the DoJ. He also testified that what he had found in the whole thing pointed to the DoJ running it since it required several agencies participate and work on covering things up when people were being reported and caught by others than the BATF. So the DoJ was pushing the offices of the DEA, BATF and FBI in those local regions to send them the reports and etc instead of through the full chains since that would allow the leaders of those agencies to know and maybe blow the whole thing instead of total control by Holder's people.

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