Shattering the Mens rights movement

Started by outdoors, Feb 14, 2013, 03:06 AM

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Tigerman

#45
Mar 11, 2013, 07:41 PM Last Edit: Mar 11, 2013, 07:57 PM by Tigerman

What happened between Harry and Paul Elam?  Was this recent? I must be rip van evil or something. :dontknow:

It was a few months ago and Harry had a difference of opinion with Paul over an article that was published - as I have no intention of making life any the easier for the quote miners out there I am sending you the url of the article concerned via PM.

EDIT: PM sent  :sunny:

DLove

Greetings to all and by the way good to see you again Factory, sure do miss the rag. Dr. E many of us old timers are still here, lurking just not posting SYG remains home as this is where we found each other in those dark days. My 2 on the current happenings with the discontentment voiced by Factory and many others as to the current direction of AVFM and those of us around long enough to remember the previous meltdowns of mensnewsdaily as well as many others (Where is Gonzo when you need him?). A comparison can be made to the Black civil rights movement of the 60's where you had opposing views from Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, Elijah Muhammad, Political leadership and even White political activist... all had a different vision toward achieving albeit similar outcomes via different approaches. None of them more right or wrong than the others. The nation settled on a hodgepodge mixture not pleasing to all but then again not displeasing to most either. Seem political consensus is the way it's done in this country when the voices of dissent are loud enough to threaten the established quo. Just as the inclusion of women into the workspace change that environment in many ways that were detrimental to men, the passive alliance to homosexuals changes the MRM in many ways not fully predictable and certainly ostracizes many men that have issue with that sort of fraternization.  Even those whose motto "live and let live" find the original message somewhat diluted like a line being redrawn in the sand and rightfully voice their discontent. Fear not because we will get there, yet "there" might not be what you thought it should be but just someplace better that what is now.

DLove

dr e

Thanks for the feedback DLove.  Good to hear from you.
Contact dr e  Lifeboats for the ladies and children, icy waters for the men.  Women have rights and men have responsibilties.

Factory


To Factory
First of all *I* am not AVFM. AVFM is there - it exists and so far I support it aims and goals ONLY because they largely coincide with my own personally held convictions.
Nor am I happy with all that is decided or that goes on there but I don't have to be - it is not my site and if I don't like it enough I can ignore it and move on.
I understand and sympathise perhaps more than you think that indeed some veteran MRA's have had their noses put out of joint in clashes with site policy and\or some of any of the moderators there. I was very saddened by the clash between Angry Harry and Paul Elam for example. Had I been in charge of the site I may well reacted differently than Paul .
I still read Angry Harry's articles and I have enormous respect and love for the man.
It was he prior to the last Gulf war that initially annoyed me with his opposition to the coming campaign - at the time I was still stupid and gullible enough to believe that the offensive was for the good of the poor Iraqi's, the Gulf in general and world peace (due to the elimination of the non-existent weapons of mass destruction etc). Yet Harry's voice troubled me - Harry foresaw the coming carnage and the undue collateral damage as a basic affront to humanity and boy was he right although it took me longer than I am proud to admit to see his perspective and agree with it.
I am not the sycophant you think I am. Like I said before AVFM  is a weapon and in my view it is being honed into an ever more effective one - so please for the sake of your own nervous system chill the fuck out and let it do it's work. :)



Jesus.  How many times do I have to say this before it gets through your thick skull?

I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE 'AGENDA' AT AVfM.  I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE 'GAY AGENDA'.  I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM....GET IT!?!?!?

For fuck sakes.

What I DO have a problem with, is the asshat way that the masthead there (and YOU are included in this statement) along with many 'commenters', have taken a 'Our way or fuck off' attitude.  I DON'T GIVE A FUCK about the 'gay agenda' shit..  What I DO GIVE A FUCK ABOUT is the way Paul and Dr F and the rest of those assholes simply turned on many MRAs and essentially branded them (us?) as 'extremists'.

And THAT is a fucking cunty asshole move, on ANY FUCKING LEVEL.  They better hope AVfM serves all their 'activism needs', because they just sent a messgae to MRAs everywhere...'tow the line, or we'll turn on you like we did 'The Father of the MRM' and others.  It was an ego-driven fucking power grab, and it shows just how shitty those people really are, how little they understand the concepts of 'loyalty' and 'consensus', and most importantly of all, it shows how Paul and the Gang will toss your dried husk over their shoulder the instant they are done getting what they want from you.

The REAL killer here, though, is that NONE OF YOU WILL ADMIT THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED...and instead choose to paint anyone who disagrees as 'egotistical extremists that hate Gays'....you know, like you keep fucking insisting on trying to do?

You're all fucking traitors, and users, and you have shown me that the VAST majority of MRAs aren't worth even a little bit of respect.  Now, FUCKING READ THIS AND UNDERSTAND, you traitorous fuck, that I will not take your baseless accusations lying down.  In fact, I'll fucking work my ass off to sink that site, and the WHOLE FUCKING MOVEMENT if I have to, before I will give you, Paul, Dr F, or any of those other assholes so much as the time of day.

Now, FUCK OFF you sycophant.

Tigerman



To Factory
First of all *I* am not AVFM. AVFM is there - it exists and so far I support it aims and goals ONLY because they largely coincide with my own personally held convictions.
Nor am I happy with all that is decided or that goes on there but I don't have to be - it is not my site and if I don't like it enough I can ignore it and move on.
I understand and sympathise perhaps more than you think that indeed some veteran MRA's have had their noses put out of joint in clashes with site policy and\or some of any of the moderators there. I was very saddened by the clash between Angry Harry and Paul Elam for example. Had I been in charge of the site I may well reacted differently than Paul .
I still read Angry Harry's articles and I have enormous respect and love for the man.
It was he prior to the last Gulf war that initially annoyed me with his opposition to the coming campaign - at the time I was still stupid and gullible enough to believe that the offensive was for the good of the poor Iraqi's, the Gulf in general and world peace (due to the elimination of the non-existent weapons of mass destruction etc). Yet Harry's voice troubled me - Harry foresaw the coming carnage and the undue collateral damage as a basic affront to humanity and boy was he right although it took me longer than I am proud to admit to see his perspective and agree with it.
I am not the sycophant you think I am. Like I said before AVFM  is a weapon and in my view it is being honed into an ever more effective one - so please for the sake of your own nervous system chill the fuck out and let it do it's work. :)



Jesus.  How many times do I have to say this before it gets through your thick skull?

I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE 'AGENDA' AT AVfM.  I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE 'GAY AGENDA'.  I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM....GET IT!?!?!?

For fuck sakes.

What I DO have a problem with, is the asshat way that the masthead there (and YOU are included in this statement) along with many 'commenters', have taken a 'Our way or fuck off' attitude.  I DON'T GIVE A FUCK about the 'gay agenda' shit..  What I DO GIVE A FUCK ABOUT is the way Paul and Dr F and the rest of those assholes simply turned on many MRAs and essentially branded them (us?) as 'extremists'.

And THAT is a fucking cunty asshole move, on ANY FUCKING LEVEL.  They better hope AVfM serves all their 'activism needs', because they just sent a messgae to MRAs everywhere...'tow the line, or we'll turn on you like we did 'The Father of the MRM' and others.  It was an ego-driven fucking power grab, and it shows just how shitty those people really are, how little they understand the concepts of 'loyalty' and 'consensus', and most importantly of all, it shows how Paul and the Gang will toss your dried husk over their shoulder the instant they are done getting what they want from you.

The REAL killer here, though, is that NONE OF YOU WILL ADMIT THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED...and instead choose to paint anyone who disagrees as 'egotistical extremists that hate Gays'....you know, like you keep fucking insisting on trying to do?

You're all fucking traitors, and users, and you have shown me that the VAST majority of MRAs aren't worth even a little bit of respect.  Now, FUCKING READ THIS AND UNDERSTAND, you traitorous fuck, that I will not take your baseless accusations lying down.  In fact, I'll fucking work my ass off to sink that site, and the WHOLE FUCKING MOVEMENT if I have to, before I will give you, Paul, Dr F, or any of those other assholes so much as the time of day.

Now, FUCK OFF you sycophant.


Sorry I'm not a sycophant I'm just someone who can put his own personal petty issues to one side for the sake of seeing some actual progress.

Factory




Sorry I'm not a sycophant I'm just someone who can put his own personal petty issues to one side for the sake of seeing some actual progress.



My ass you are, you sniveling apologist.  You want to CONTINUE to try and paint me as 'unreasonable' do you?  I spelled out in fair detail what the issue with that site is, and THIS bullshit is your mealy-mouthed response?  You're just as much opf a piece of shit as they are if you can't even drum up enough fucking humanity to denounce the IRRESPONSIBLE and downright fucking nasty betrayal committed by others...just because they are your buds....

Seriously, you, Paul, Dr F, and all the rest are soulless pieces of shit, and not one of you deserves anything but utter fucking contempt.  And you are such a fucking coward you can't even admit when you, or ANYONE associated with that site, is being a fucking asshole...probably because you're afraid they will do it to YOU too...

Yeah, excellent 'defense' you're putting up there, you and your hypocritical traitorous crew...

dr e

Factory -  Please try to keep the name calling down.  Stick with the ideas and we will be fine.  It does seem to be a question worth answering, is AVFM inclusive or has it been "exclusive" to only a certain sub-set of mra's.  It seems factory that you are suggesting that they have indeed excluded some for their ideas while at the same time hoisting the banner of inclusiveness.  A rather odd combo.  Can you comment on that Tigerman? 

This dynamic is what we have seen from groups such as feminism where a party-line must be followed or people are actively excluded.  I hope we are not going down that road.
Contact dr e  Lifeboats for the ladies and children, icy waters for the men.  Women have rights and men have responsibilties.

Tigerman


Factory -  Please try to keep the name calling down.  Stick with the ideas and we will be fine.  It does seem to be a question worth answering, is AVFM inclusive or has it been "exclusive" to only a certain sub-set of mra's.  It seems factory that you are suggesting that they have indeed excluded some for their ideas while at the same time hoisting the banner of inclusiveness.  A rather odd combo.  Can you comment on that Tigerman? 

This dynamic is what we have seen from groups such as feminism where a party-line must be followed or people are actively excluded.  I hope we are not going down that road.


Sure Dr E love to clear up those points for you.
AVFM does NOT regard itself as THE mens rights movement nor even the mens human rights movement - it is a nexus of activism organised and represented by one website presence.
It has a clearly defined editorial and comment policy with the editorial policy being by far the stricter of the two.
It is absolutely inclusive and invites support and membership from any and all human beings who accept and willing to accept it's comment policy or if they wish to write articles for publishing on AVFM they must abide by the sites editorial policy.
The reasons why AVFM adopted and defined clear guidelines for editorial content and commentary is fully explained on the website as a sub menu item of "About AVFM" called "Editorial and Comment Policy".
As I mentioned before it is much more tolerant in it's commenting policy than it's editorial policy for what I hope is obvious reasons - that said it does have zero tolerance for promoting any form of violence.
Anyway judge for yourself - here is the comment policy:-
Comment Policy:
The comment policy is simple.  Threats, advocacy and ideations of violence are strictly verboten. All other manner of speech is allowed unless it becomes disruptive to the continuity of discussions.
Personally speaking AVFM gets my support because it genuinely IS the most inclusive activist group I have yet encountered in the promotion of men and boys getting true equal treatment. That is my opinion of course.
Anyway the full policy can be viewed here so that you can read it and make your own conclusions. :)

Tigerman

#53
Mar 15, 2013, 06:33 AM Last Edit: Mar 15, 2013, 06:37 AM by Tigerman




Sorry I'm not a sycophant I'm just someone who can put his own personal petty issues to one side for the sake of seeing some actual progress.



My ass you are, you sniveling apologist.  You want to CONTINUE to try and paint me as 'unreasonable' do you?  I spelled out in fair detail what the issue with that site is, and THIS bullshit is your mealy-mouthed response?  You're just as much opf a piece of shit as they are if you can't even drum up enough fucking humanity to denounce the IRRESPONSIBLE and downright fucking nasty betrayal committed by others...just because they are your buds....

Seriously, you, Paul, Dr F, and all the rest are soulless pieces of shit, and not one of you deserves anything but utter fucking contempt.  And you are such a fucking coward you can't even admit when you, or ANYONE associated with that site, is being a fucking asshole...probably because you're afraid they will do it to YOU too...

Yeah, excellent 'defense' you're putting up there, you and your hypocritical traitorous crew...


Just so other readers know you are talking bull droppings. It was only a few days ago that I publicly called out one of the writers for AVFM for plagiarism when the actual author of a piece showed up and mentioned it was his work (with an url to the original publication to prove it). To AVFM's credit as soon as Paul saw that this was the case the plagiarising author was banned instantly and ALL his prior published articles were removed from the site because trust in authenticity of authorship had been fatally undermined.
As for being "assholes" let him who has not been one cast the first stone to paraphrase a certain historic personage. For sure I have my opinions on what goes down not just there but everywhere else but I am also mindful of the wisdom "don't wash your dirty linen in public."
There are right wingers, left wingers, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Atheists, Agnostics, gay, straight, trans, black, white and every colour in between at AVFM and they are not there because they are sycophants or agree with everything that is done or said there. They are there for the simple reason that above all the other distinctions we are united in our common HUMANITY and our desire to see men and boys being fully included alongside with women (and trans) in societies treatment and recognition of our humanity.
This is also why AVFM stresses the "HUMAN" part in it's activism because it is both a fact and hat aspect of us which unites us all.
So sure such keeping and maintaining any sort of unity in such a diverse group requires a lot - not just from the site and it's admin but the goodwill and intelligence of it's diverse supporters.
AVFM is not for prioritising vexatious  "venting" however - there are much better places for that and yes Factory that remark is aimed directly at you - pissing contests are for schoolkids and "talking tough" on the internet has never impressed me.

CaptDMO

;popcorn:

Tigerman


Factory

"As I mentioned before it is much more tolerant in it's commenting policy than it's editorial policy for what I hope is obvious reasons - that said it does have zero tolerance for promoting any form of violence.
Anyway judge for yourself - here is the comment policy:-
Comment Policy:
The comment policy is simple.  Threats, advocacy and ideations of violence are strictly verboten. All other manner of speech is allowed unless it becomes disruptive to the continuity of discussions. "

Nice try.  Why don't you point to my, or Harry's, or any of the other MRAs driven off...why don't you point to our posts that violate this 'one rule'.?  Is that because you can't, because that one simple rule had NOTHING AT ALL to do with this?

And if that is the case, then what the fuck are you doing trying to insinuate that Angry Harry posted a violent post?  Considering this vehemence against violence popped up in response to ME getting hauled in to the cop shop re: activism, don't you think it a tad fucking ironic that you now indirectly accuse me of 'extremism' YET AGAIN without answering a single question I posed?  This is typical Liberal Argumentation...ignore the gist, claim moral superiority, dismiss the opponent, claim victory, go home,,

This whole exchange you have disingenuously refused to even address the point.  You just keep casting around for something 'bad' to paint me with.

Yeah, that's right...INTEGRITY is a foreign concept to you, I get it...but some of us actually value 'outdated' concepts like that....unlike, it seems, you.


"Just so other readers know you are talking bull droppings. It was only a few days ago that I publicly called out one of the writers for AVFM for plagiarism when the actual author of a piece showed up and mentioned it was his work (with an url to the original publication to prove it). To AVFM's credit as soon as Paul saw that this was the case the plagiarising author was banned instantly and ALL his prior published articles were removed from the site because trust in authenticity of authorship had been fatally undermined."

This 'proves' what exactly?  That Plagiarism is frowned upon.  Yay you.


"As for being "assholes" let him who has not been one cast the first stone to paraphrase a certain historic personage. For sure I have my opinions on what goes down not just there but everywhere else but I am also mindful of the wisdom "don't wash your dirty linen in public.""

I think you are under the mistaken impression that I want to move this movement forward, EVEN IF IT MEANS SUPPORTING CRAP IDEOLOGICAL TOTALITARIANISM.  Let me put it to you straight, right now...

I will do everything I can to undermine that site, and this whole fucking movement if I have to, in order to restore some kind of humanity to it.  That fucker posted a personal email ALONG WITH MY CITY OF RESIDENCE on the Internet, and I STILL can't get a job because of it.  I once thought he was just a fucking moron for doing it,. now, I'm not so sure.  THAT is the kind of shit I hold against him and his site.  ALL of you show complete willingmness to 'sacrifice a brother for the greater good'.

I will air my dirty laundry in public till I'm blue in the face...ESPECIALLY if it embarrasses him and his sycophants.  In fact, I am publicly stating right now that anyone, and I do mean ANYONE, that would like to make use of my services or knowledge in order to undermine and destroy both AVfM and the Mens Movment as a whole, is more than welcome to contact me.,  I will give your efforts every bit as much time and energy as I have thus far sunk into both AVfM and the MRM.

Betray me, and try to toss me over the shoulder as an 'extremist'?  Fine, fuck you and the horse you rode in on...and fuck anyone associated with you.  I'd FAR rather not fight for the rights of men, if it means I have to associate with the likes of you or Paul to do it.  And I would DEFINITELY rather see the MRM destroiyed than simply replace feminism as the ideology of oppression du jour.


"There are right wingers, left wingers, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Atheists, Agnostics, gay, straight, trans, black, white and every colour in between at AVFM and they are not there because they are sycophants or agree with everything that is done or said there. They are there for the simple reason that above all the other distinctions we are united in our common HUMANITY and our desire to see men and boys being fully included alongside with women (and trans) in societies treatment and recognition of our humanity."

I love how you narcissistic asshats think this is something new in the MRM.  Until your 'enlightened' asses hit the benches, we MUST have all been old white racist and sexist guys....since we didn't make a point of stressing all that shit...

Or, conversely, we were smart enough to realize that pandering in this way is THE EXACT SAME SHIT THAT LED TO THE PROBLEMS WE FIGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE>  It doesn't deviate, not one fucking iota, from the exact same trajectory Feminism followed, and using the exact same fucking methodology to do it.  But yeah, you guys are SO SMART, that it won't happen to you like it did to literally every other movement adopting the memes...  Nope, you guys are DIFFERENT, therefore, it'll work this time....

Morons.


"So sure such keeping and maintaining any sort of unity in such a diverse group requires a lot - not just from the site and it's admin but the goodwill and intelligence of it's diverse supporters. "

'Diverse' huh?  PC speak...PC guidelines, PC 'groups', PC everything...but nope, according to you, all those identical traits are NOT indications you've gone Pee Cee....nope, nothing to see here, move along.


"AVFM is not for prioritising vexatious  "venting" however - there are much better places for that and yes Factory that remark is aimed directly at you - pissing contests are for schoolkids and "talking tough" on the internet has never impressed me."

Vexatiuous venting....is that what you call any kind of criticism of an INSANE course of action?  My guess is, Tigerman, that you had a LOT to do with this shift in direction.  Along with the 'contributing supporters' that happen to have a desire for this change in direction as well....hmmm...

The fact hat you STILL cannot admit that AVfM ever did anything wrong, or that the 'ousting' of longtime MRAs was ill-conceived at the very best.  You still can't deny that AVfM is doing it's level best (as are you) is casting as 'extremist' (just like the SRSers on Reddit have wanted for years) anyone who doesn't agree with the 'full support' of these groups, EVEN IF THE OBJECTION IS ONE OF SIMPLE OVER REPRESENTATION.  Yeah, that's the ONLY reason I was attacked...because I didn't support the Official Policy IN THE CORRECT MANNER.  I was attacked because of simple criticism of methods, not even the goals behind them.

THIS is your idea of 'inclusive'?

You can make all the dismissive statements you like, you can avoid addressing the issues at hand all you like, you can ignore actual evidence and instead substitute your own strawargument and attack that all you like.

YOu, that site, and EVERYONE attached to it, have lost all credibility outside the PC politicians whose dicks you want to suck.  While I have more or less dismissed the whole movement as a waste of time, I am more than happy to start dirtecting my energy into providing as much damning evidence and strategy to smear that site and the movement if given a reason.

Sure, you're gonna scoff.  But tell me, Mr Wonderful...when you have founders of a movement so incensed at your asshat maneuverings he is willing to undermine the very movement he helped build...and pissed ME off enough to do it as well  how exactly do you think you did NOT fuck up royally?

Oh, that's right...you wanted us gone for a while now..

dr e

Quote
I will air my dirty laundry in public till I'm blue in the face...ESPECIALLY if it embarrasses him and his sycophants.  In fact, I am publicly stating right now that anyone, and I do mean ANYONE, that would like to make use of my services or knowledge in order to undermine and destroy both AVfM and the Mens Movment as a whole, is more than welcome to contact me.,  I will give your efforts every bit as much time and energy as I have thus far sunk into both AVfM and the MRM.


Factory - I hope you aren't going to blow us up to!  We are a part of the men's movement....

Maybe you could offer some links of the conversations you had where you feel you were wronged.  That might be helpful.

You are loved and respected here man, take a deep breath.
Contact dr e  Lifeboats for the ladies and children, icy waters for the men.  Women have rights and men have responsibilties.

dr e

Tigerman -  I am less concerned with the actual policy and more concerned with the daily reality.

Quote
It seems factory that you are suggesting that they have indeed excluded some for their ideas while at the same time hoisting the banner of inclusiveness.  A rather odd combo.  Can you comment on that Tigerman? 


Is this correct or not?  Is there personal attacks for having ideas that differ?  Are people free to speak their minds and insured a degree of safety?  Please don't quote the moderation policy.  That is not what I am asking. 
Contact dr e  Lifeboats for the ladies and children, icy waters for the men.  Women have rights and men have responsibilties.

Cordell Walker

its sad that pretty much every movement oppossing the coming police state and socialist NWO is plauged with infighting.
what you are seeing with factory and tiger is civil compared to the beefs within the ranks of the militia movement. there is so much distrust and accusations of people being fed assets and snitches, if shit ever did hit the fan, the feds would just sit there drinking beer and watch the patriots kill each other.  But there is more of an excuse for the infighting in the III pecenter/patriot/militia movement than there is in the men's rights movement, because its a known fact that there are paid federal assets within the movement who's sole job is to keep a shitstorm brewing internally. I highly doubt the feds have a similar program going on in the MRA community, for serveral reason
"how can you kill women and children?"---private joker
"Easy, ya just dont lead em as much" ---Animal Mother

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