Here in this one post I am going to address both Dr E's questions and Factory's latest accusations
First of all to my knowledge Angry Harry was not banned from AVFM. That he disagreed with Paul Elam over some issues arising from a post made there I acknowledge - it was a very long comment thread and indeed Angry Harry did not make any threats implied or otherwise of a violent nature (it's just not in his nature is my judgement of the man).
Heated words were exchanged by both sides that is true and from my personal perspective it was not exactly a comfortable sight witnessing that (albeit somewhat later) .
As I stated before I have enormous respect for Angry Harry even when I may not fully agree with any particular one of his opinions (as it happens I agree with what he writes 90% + of the time) I never doubt the sincerity with which he writes nor his humanism.
There are two things that can get you banned in commenting one is promoting violence in any way and another is being chronically disruptive.
My recollection of Factory getting banned is that he was warned about expressing violent intent - he ignored it and was subsequently banned - that's it. You can accuse AVFM of many things but when it comes to the primary rule of not promoting violence (even as an idea) no one is exempt whether they be a newbie or old timer so partially is not a charge that will stick against AVFM.
As for Factory's allegations of "doxing" I honestly know nothing about this and I certainly don't recollect seeing any such details in the thread he got banned in.
Nor after all the consistent hostility, ill-will and insults that he has sent my way do I have any inclination whatsoever to be his "champion" on this issue - I am not a saint and although I generally route for what I perceive to be the underdog Factory has thrown too much shit for me to ignore and still feel some sympathy for.
Should he prove his allegation and there is no satisfactory explanations from the other side - I will take that on board and react according to my conscience on the matter.
I should also point out there is a world of difference between being banned and so called being "driven away".
At this point let me be frank and state the extremely angry tone of Factory's responses does present me something of a challenge as although it might seem otherwise I am as red blooded a guy as the next man. That said I don't think ill willed invective laden exchanges make for a better understanding of anything on the contrary my experience is that they solidify divisive positions.
That said I will quote Factory directly because then he cannot accuse me of ignoring his points invective laden as they are.
Me:
"As for being "assholes" let him who has not been one cast the first stone to paraphrase a certain historic personage. For sure I have my opinions on what goes down not just there but everywhere else but I am also mindful of the wisdom "don't wash your dirty linen in public.""
Factory responded:
I think you are under the mistaken impression that I want to move this movement forward, EVEN IF IT MEANS SUPPORTING CRAP IDEOLOGICAL TOTALITARIANISM. Let me put it to you straight, right now...
I will do everything I can to undermine that site, and this whole fucking movement if I have to, in order to restore some kind of humanity to it. That fucker posted a personal email ALONG WITH MY CITY OF RESIDENCE on the Internet, and I STILL can't get a job because of it. I once thought he was just a fucking moron for doing it,. now, I'm not so sure. THAT is the kind of shit I hold against him and his site. ALL of you show complete willingmness to 'sacrifice a brother for the greater good'.
I will air my dirty laundry in public till I'm blue in the face...ESPECIALLY if it embarrasses him and his sycophants. In fact, I am publicly stating right now that anyone, and I do mean ANYONE, that would like to make use of my services or knowledge in order to undermine and destroy both AVfM and the Mens Movment as a whole, is more than welcome to contact me., I will give your efforts every bit as much time and energy as I have thus far sunk into both AVfM and the MRM.
Betray me, and try to toss me over the shoulder as an 'extremist'? Fine, fuck you and the horse you rode in on...and fuck anyone associated with you. I'd FAR rather not fight for the rights of men, if it means I have to associate with the likes of you or Paul to do it. And I would DEFINITELY rather see the MRM destroiyed than simply replace feminism as the ideology of oppression du jour.
The sheer arrogance and expressions of hate in the above is simply breathtaking - you would be willing to undermine AVFM and the whole men's movement because YOU alone are the one that knows what "humanity" is and how to restore it???
In..fucking..credible now I have heard it all.
Perhaps you would also like to lecture Erin Pizzey on what HUMANITY is since she is also not only a member of AVFM (and MRALondon another affiliate of AVFM for that matter) but also on it's editorial board??
....
Factory:
I love how you narcissistic asshats think this is something new in the MRM. Until your 'enlightened' asses hit the benches, we MUST have all been old white racist and sexist guys....since we didn't make a point of stressing all that shit...
Or, conversely, we were smart enough to realize that pandering in this way is THE EXACT SAME SHIT THAT LED TO THE PROBLEMS WE FIGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE> It doesn't deviate, not one fucking iota, from the exact same trajectory Feminism followed, and using the exact same fucking methodology to do it. But yeah, you guys are SO SMART, that it won't happen to you like it did to literally every other movement adopting the memes... Nope, you guys are DIFFERENT, therefore, it'll work this time....
Morons.
First of all let me make it perfectly clear that I do not regard recognising the common humanity in the diversity of human beings whether it be colour, creed, sex, politics or beliefs as "pandering" . If a human being recognises the need to address the issue of neglected mens and boys rights and is otherwise respectful of others differences then I have no problem with that.
As for the insinuation that "inclusiveness" is what turned feminism into what we see today I am almost at a loss for words at the stupidity and ignorance that belies such statements.
The fact that he does regard "inclusiveness" as pandering says much more about his own state of humanity (or lack of it) than anyone elses in my view.
Feminism became what it is today because a network of groups of very nasty individuals took the movement over a long time ago. In the UK how this happened and came about is presented in great detail by a
woman who was there first hand to witness it.They are the ones responsible for the very non inclusive patriarchy theory and duluth model where one half of the population is made scapegoat for the other. Comparing AVFM genuinely egalitarian and and inclusive stance to that is preposterous and comes across as nothing less then the rantings of someone with such a massive chip on their shoulder that they have lost touch with reason.
Factory went to say:
Me:
"So sure such keeping and maintaining any sort of unity in such a diverse group requires a lot - not just from the site and it's admin but the goodwill and intelligence of it's diverse supporters. "
Factory:
'Diverse' huh? PC speak...PC guidelines, PC 'groups', PC everything...but nope, according to you, all those identical traits are NOT indications you've gone Pee Cee....nope, nothing to see here, move along.
The term "diverse group" wasn't part of some empty rhetoric but is in fact an accurate description of the support and membership base and this FACT is something we should be celebrating not cynically sneering about! One of the consistent charges against the MRM by our opposition is that it is peopled by just a bunch of embittered, angry, right wing white men!
Now as it happens I am white, male and I used to be "right wing" ( now I am thoroughly disillusioned with all mainstream political party's right and left.) as for "angry and embittered" it is unfortunate fact that again major double standards exist ie how can we have a right to be "angry and embittered" when we come from a so called "privileged" group and thus such emotions have been unfairly deligitimised by the feminist dominated culture we live in. Sadly over a long period of time there false messages about mens rights supporters tend be taken in as fact as our feminist dominated MSM has been too successful in controlling what gets published and suppressing dissenting voices. This is all old news to most of us of course and on the plus side there are signs that the stranglehold of feminism on the media is loosening somewhat.
All that said most people I would conjecture (based on experience) are intellectually lazy and will tend to follow in agreement with opinions about groups that have been consistently fed to them for even a moderate period of time if they see no dissenting opinions or information that informs otherwise.
For this reason among others I would suggest (I am guessing here as I did not create the editorial and commenting policy @ AVFM) that in addition to being pledged to non-violent activism it was decided to have a strict policy on zero tolerance for expressions of violent intent from supporters and commenters. Unscrupulous quote miners from the likes of Manboobz (as an example) will still merrily take quotes out of context in any case and paint as negative a picture as they can - knee jerk reactionary readers will lap it up mostly without checking for themselves the accuracy or context of those quotes. Nothing can be done about that but then there are others (MSM journalists perhaps with a modicum of integrity) who will actually check out the source for themselves and if what they find is not representative of the picture they have had painted for them said smear(s) will backfire big time.
Anyway that is MY reasoning behind supporting a zero tolerance policy for violence.
Anyway moving on to the next piece of insult laden invective and smears...
Me:
"AVFM is not for prioritising vexatious "venting" however - there are much better places for that and yes Factory that remark is aimed directly at you - pissing contests are for schoolkids and "talking tough" on the internet has never impressed me."
Factory responds:
Vexatiuous venting....is that what you call any kind of criticism of an INSANE course of action? My guess is, Tigerman, that you had a LOT to do with this shift in direction. Along with the 'contributing supporters' that happen to have a desire for this change in direction as well....hmmm...
I make no secret that I have indeed actively encouraged AVFM to evolve into a more apolitical and inclusive stance in order to attract as wide a support base as possible. I see this as a strength for reasons I have repeated before you don't - fine we have a difference of opinion so what. I am also delighted that the humanitarian aspect of mens rights is also being emphasised and as redundant as you imply this position is it has nevertheless already has helped
lance the boil of feminism and help expose it's uglier side to public scrutinyAlthough my ego would be flattered to take credit for any of this evolution in reality this was the overwhelming shared consensus of opinion of behalf of both the editorial team and the active participants at the time.
The fact hat you STILL cannot admit that AVfM ever did anything wrong, or that the 'ousting' of longtime MRAs was ill-conceived at the very best. You still can't deny that AVfM is doing it's level best (as are you) is casting as 'extremist' (just like the SRSers on Reddit have wanted for years) anyone who doesn't agree with the 'full support' of these groups, EVEN IF THE OBJECTION IS ONE OF SIMPLE OVER REPRESENTATION. Yeah, that's the ONLY reason I was attacked...because I didn't support the Official Policy IN THE CORRECT MANNER. I was attacked because of simple criticism of methods, not even the goals behind them.
I have never pretended that AVFM is incapable of making mistakes it made a very serious one a few days ago by one of it's editorial team I spoke out in plain unambiguos terms about this
and to the credit of Paul Elam he acted quickly and decisively as soon as he became aware of the issue.
Nor do I think Paul and other contributors are always in the right but I do make a considered judgment on when and how to express my dissent according to the seriousness (in my view) of the disagreement.
So in summary I am delighted at the overall direction AVFM has taken - that said I take no joy at all when I see commenter's falling foul of commenting policy and ending up getting banned - in some cases I would have maybe acted differently than the moderator concerned but even that is speculation unless the responsibility is yours and you are actually in their shoes and have followed the posters concerned history.
Should someone receive a ban that was outside current policy I would question it but so far I have not seen an example of that so have had no cause to question a decision.
Again I will reiterate being banned is one thing choosing not to post there again is another ie as long as someone is not banned there is nothing to prevent anyone from posting their opinions there.
Okay I just realised something - I was using google to try and get back the thread that led to your current ban and the penny dropped regarding you, AVFM and another rather personal issue\incident.
I am not going to elaborate in case it is an embarrassment to you.
All I'll say is sorry you are not there any more and many there have a lot of good will towards you.
That is all - peace out.