Shattering the Mens rights movement

Started by outdoors, Feb 14, 2013, 03:06 AM

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Tigerman



Lets take the first article linked to called "MRM Marxism?" - this wasn't AVFM endorsing "marxism" but rather allowing a marxist supporter who also supported mens rights to explain his left wing philosophy and what makes fellow mra marxists like himself "tick". [...] Some individuals though were very upset that this article got published because despite a consultation amongst supporters of AVFM overwhelmingly supporting an apolitical stance in it's activism [...]


Marxists are known of taking over organizations and pushing out non-marxists (cf. "salami tactic"). One's "explaining left wing philosophy" is another's agitprop activity, and is pretty far from an "apolitical stance".



No such takeover has taken place - the guy who wrote the article for AVFM hasn't written ANY other article for AVFM since.  In addition if you look in the comments to the article you will discover that the author is an engaging and quite humble man.
Like I said all this "reds under the bed" paranoia is not justified when it comes to AVFM.

Factory


Here in this one post I am going to address both Dr E's questions and Factory's latest accusations

First of all to my knowledge Angry Harry was not banned from AVFM. That he disagreed with Paul Elam over some issues arising from a post made there I acknowledge - it was a very long comment thread and indeed Angry Harry did not make any threats implied or otherwise of a violent nature (it's just not in his nature is my judgement of the man).
Heated words were exchanged by both sides that is true and from my personal perspective it was not exactly a comfortable sight witnessing that (albeit somewhat later) .
As I stated before I have enormous respect for Angry Harry even when I may not fully agree with any particular one of his opinions (as it happens I agree with what he writes 90% + of the time) I never doubt the sincerity with which he writes nor his humanism.
There are two things that can get you banned in commenting one is promoting violence in any way and another is being chronically disruptive.
My recollection of Factory getting banned is that he was warned about expressing violent intent - he ignored it and was subsequently banned - that's it. You can accuse AVFM of many things but when it comes to the primary rule of not promoting violence (even as an idea) no one is exempt whether they be a newbie or old timer so partially is not a charge that will stick against AVFM.
As for Factory's allegations of "doxing" I honestly know nothing about this and I certainly don't recollect seeing any such details in the thread he got banned in.
Nor after all the consistent hostility, ill-will and insults that he has sent my way do I have any inclination whatsoever to be his "champion" on this issue - I am not a saint and although I generally route for what I perceive to be the underdog Factory has thrown too much shit for me to ignore and still feel some sympathy for.
Should he prove his allegation and there is no satisfactory explanations from the other side - I will take that on board and  react according to my conscience on the matter.
I should also point out there is a world of difference between being banned and so called being "driven away".
At this point let me be frank and state the extremely angry tone of Factory's responses does present me something of a challenge as although it might seem otherwise I am as red blooded a guy as the next man. That said I don't think ill willed invective laden exchanges make for a better understanding of anything on the contrary my experience is that they solidify divisive positions.
That said I will quote Factory directly because then he cannot accuse me of ignoring his points invective laden as they are.
Me:
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"As for being "assholes" let him who has not been one cast the first stone to paraphrase a certain historic personage. For sure I have my opinions on what goes down not just there but everywhere else but I am also mindful of the wisdom "don't wash your dirty linen in public.""


Factory responded:

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I think you are under the mistaken impression that I want to move this movement forward, EVEN IF IT MEANS SUPPORTING CRAP IDEOLOGICAL TOTALITARIANISM.  Let me put it to you straight, right now...


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I will do everything I can to undermine that site, and this whole fucking movement if I have to, in order to restore some kind of humanity to it.  That fucker posted a personal email ALONG WITH MY CITY OF RESIDENCE on the Internet, and I STILL can't get a job because of it.  I once thought he was just a fucking moron for doing it,. now, I'm not so sure.  THAT is the kind of shit I hold against him and his site.  ALL of you show complete willingmness to 'sacrifice a brother for the greater good'.

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I will air my dirty laundry in public till I'm blue in the face...ESPECIALLY if it embarrasses him and his sycophants.  In fact, I am publicly stating right now that anyone, and I do mean ANYONE, that would like to make use of my services or knowledge in order to undermine and destroy both AVfM and the Mens Movment as a whole, is more than welcome to contact me.,  I will give your efforts every bit as much time and energy as I have thus far sunk into both AVfM and the MRM.

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Betray me, and try to toss me over the shoulder as an 'extremist'?  Fine, fuck you and the horse you rode in on...and fuck anyone associated with you.  I'd FAR rather not fight for the rights of men, if it means I have to associate with the likes of you or Paul to do it.  And I would DEFINITELY rather see the MRM destroiyed than simply replace feminism as the ideology of oppression du jour.


The sheer arrogance and expressions of hate in the above is simply breathtaking - you would be willing to undermine AVFM and the whole men's movement because YOU alone are the one that knows what "humanity" is and how to restore it???
In..fucking..credible now I have heard it all.
Perhaps you would also like to lecture Erin Pizzey on what HUMANITY is since she is also not only a member of AVFM (and MRALondon another affiliate of AVFM for that matter) but also on it's editorial board??

....
Factory:

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I love how you narcissistic asshats think this is something new in the MRM.  Until your 'enlightened' asses hit the benches, we MUST have all been old white racist and sexist guys....since we didn't make a point of stressing all that shit...


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Or, conversely, we were smart enough to realize that pandering in this way is THE EXACT SAME SHIT THAT LED TO THE PROBLEMS WE FIGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE>  It doesn't deviate, not one fucking iota, from the exact same trajectory Feminism followed, and using the exact same fucking methodology to do it.  But yeah, you guys are SO SMART, that it won't happen to you like it did to literally every other movement adopting the memes...  Nope, you guys are DIFFERENT, therefore, it'll work this time....


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Morons.


First of all let me make it perfectly clear that I do not regard recognising the common humanity in the diversity of human beings whether it be colour, creed, sex, politics or beliefs as "pandering" . If a human being recognises the need to address the issue of neglected mens and boys rights and is otherwise respectful of others differences then I have no problem with that.
As for the insinuation that "inclusiveness" is what turned feminism into what we see today I am almost at a loss for words at the stupidity and ignorance that belies such statements.
The fact that he does regard "inclusiveness" as pandering says much more about his own state of humanity (or lack of it) than anyone elses in my view.
Feminism became what it is today because a network of groups of very nasty individuals took the movement over a long time ago. In the UK how this happened and came about is presented in great detail by a woman who was there first hand to witness it.
They are the ones responsible for the very non inclusive patriarchy theory and duluth  model where one half of the population is made scapegoat for the other. Comparing AVFM genuinely egalitarian and and inclusive stance to that is preposterous and comes across as nothing less then the rantings of someone with such a massive chip on their shoulder that they have lost touch with reason.
Factory went to say:
Me:
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"So sure such keeping and maintaining any sort of unity in such a diverse group requires a lot - not just from the site and it's admin but the goodwill and intelligence of it's diverse supporters. "

Factory:

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'Diverse' huh?  PC speak...PC guidelines, PC 'groups', PC everything...but nope, according to you, all those identical traits are NOT indications you've gone Pee Cee....nope, nothing to see here, move along.


The term "diverse group" wasn't part of some empty rhetoric but is in fact an accurate description of the support and membership base and this FACT is something we should be celebrating not cynically sneering about! One of the consistent charges against the MRM by our opposition is that it is peopled by just a bunch of embittered, angry, right wing white men!
Now as it happens I am white, male and I used to be "right wing" ( now I am thoroughly disillusioned with all mainstream political party's right and left.) as for "angry and embittered" it is unfortunate fact that again major double standards exist ie how can we  have a right to be "angry and embittered" when  we come from a so called "privileged" group and thus such emotions have been unfairly deligitimised by the feminist dominated culture we live in. Sadly over a long period of time there false messages about mens rights supporters tend be taken in as fact as our feminist dominated MSM has been too successful in controlling what gets published and suppressing dissenting voices. This is all old news to most of us of course and on the plus side there are signs that the stranglehold of feminism on the media is loosening somewhat.
All that said most people I would conjecture (based on experience) are intellectually lazy and will tend to follow in agreement with opinions about groups that have been consistently fed to them for even a moderate period of time if they see no dissenting opinions or information that informs otherwise.
For this reason among others I would suggest (I am guessing here as I did not create the editorial and commenting policy @ AVFM) that in addition to being pledged to non-violent activism it was decided to have a strict policy on zero tolerance for expressions of violent intent from supporters and commenters. Unscrupulous quote miners from the likes of Manboobz (as an example) will still merrily take quotes out of context in any case and paint as negative a picture as they can - knee jerk reactionary readers will lap it up mostly without checking for themselves the accuracy or context of those quotes. Nothing can be done about that but then there are others (MSM journalists perhaps with a modicum of integrity) who will actually check out the source for themselves and if what they find is not representative of the picture they have had painted for them said smear(s) will backfire big time.
Anyway that is MY reasoning behind supporting a zero tolerance policy for violence.

Anyway moving on to the next piece of insult laden invective and smears...

Me:
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"AVFM is not for prioritising vexatious  "venting" however - there are much better places for that and yes Factory that remark is aimed directly at you - pissing contests are for schoolkids and "talking tough" on the internet has never impressed me."


Factory responds:
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Vexatiuous venting....is that what you call any kind of criticism of an INSANE course of action?  My guess is, Tigerman, that you had a LOT to do with this shift in direction.  Along with the 'contributing supporters' that happen to have a desire for this change in direction as well....hmmm...


I make no secret that I have indeed actively encouraged AVFM to evolve into a more apolitical and inclusive stance in order to attract as wide a support base as possible. I see this as a strength for reasons I have repeated before you don't - fine we have a difference of opinion so what. I am also delighted that the humanitarian aspect of mens rights is also being emphasised and as redundant as you imply this position is it has nevertheless already has helped lance the boil of feminism and help expose it's uglier side to public scrutiny

Although my ego would be flattered to take credit for any of this evolution in reality  this was the overwhelming shared consensus of opinion of behalf of both the editorial team and the active participants at the time.

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The fact hat you STILL cannot admit that AVfM ever did anything wrong, or that the 'ousting' of longtime MRAs was ill-conceived at the very best.  You still can't deny that AVfM is doing it's level best (as are you) is casting as 'extremist' (just like the SRSers on Reddit have wanted for years) anyone who doesn't agree with the 'full support' of these groups, EVEN IF THE OBJECTION IS ONE OF SIMPLE OVER REPRESENTATION.  Yeah, that's the ONLY reason I was attacked...because I didn't support the Official Policy IN THE CORRECT MANNER.  I was attacked because of simple criticism of methods, not even the goals behind them.


I have never pretended that AVFM is incapable of making mistakes it made a very serious one a few days ago by one of it's editorial team I spoke out in plain unambiguos  terms about this
and to the credit of Paul Elam he acted quickly and decisively as soon as he became aware of the issue.
Nor do I think Paul and other contributors are always in the right but I do make a considered judgment on when and how to express my dissent according to the seriousness (in my view) of the disagreement.
So in summary I am delighted at the overall direction AVFM has taken - that said I take no joy at all when I see commenter's falling foul of commenting policy and ending up getting banned - in some cases I would have maybe acted differently than the moderator concerned but even that is speculation unless the responsibility is yours and you are actually in their shoes and have followed the posters concerned history.
Should someone receive a ban that was outside current policy I would question it but so far I have not seen an example of that so have had no cause to question a decision.
Again I will reiterate being banned is one thing choosing not to post there again is another ie as long as someone is not banned there is nothing to prevent anyone from posting their opinions there.

Okay I just realised something - I was using google to try and get back the thread that led to your current ban and the penny dropped regarding you, AVFM and another rather personal issue\incident.
I am not going to elaborate in case it is an embarrassment  to you.
All I'll say is sorry you are not there any more and many there have a lot of good will towards you.
That is all - peace out.


Wow, are you ever off base....

Can you point to ANY of my posts that are 'advocating violence'?  No, you can't.  Wanna know why?

Because there AREN'T ANY...but hey, keep believing what you want...


Factory


Factory:
Have just read your post where you copied the exchanges between yourself and Paul (and one or two others). All I can say is that as far as I am concerned it does not validate your accusations and claims against AVFM and it's "direction" etc whatsoever.
I don't want to speculate or insult you but something has thrown your judgement wayyy off.


Gee, I'm shocked.  You're such an 'unbiased' guy after all....

Tigerman



Factory:
Have just read your post where you copied the exchanges between yourself and Paul (and one or two others). All I can say is that as far as I am concerned it does not validate your accusations and claims against AVFM and it's "direction" etc whatsoever.
I don't want to speculate or insult you but something has thrown your judgement wayyy off.


Gee, I'm shocked.  You're such an 'unbiased' guy after all....


I wasn't the only one who failed to see the validation for your position in those exchanges.

neoteny

No such takeover has taken place - the guy who wrote the article for AVFM hasn't written ANY other article for AVFM since.


Good -- as long as it stays that way.
The spreading of information about the [quantum] system through the [classical] environment is ultimately responsible for the emergence of "objective reality." 

Wojciech Hubert Zurek: Decoherence, einselection, and the quantum origins of the classical

Tigerman

Factory wrote
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Wow, are you ever off base....


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Can you point to ANY of my posts that are 'advocating violence'?  No, you can't.  Wanna know why?

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Because there AREN'T ANY...but hey, keep believing what you want...


Advocating violence isn't the only item in the comment policy that could earn a ban - I thought it was advocating violence that got you banned but if what you posted represented all your final exchanges there I will gladly acknowledge I was wrong in that respect.
I am still curious about one factor though - were you actually banned?
I ask this because in the exchanges you presented I didn't see any specific notice that you had in fact been banned?

Tigerman


No such takeover has taken place - the guy who wrote the article for AVFM hasn't written ANY other article for AVFM since.


Good -- as long as it stays that way.



If it doesn't you can rest assured that in my case at least you will get proof that I'm no sycophant.  :toothy9:

dr e

So Tigerman -  How do you understand the dissent of people like Factory, Angry Harry, Mr E, and likely others, and their departure from AVFM?  Do you see this as totally a function of their own personal difficulties and/or diverging viewpoints or do you see any responsibility on AVFM's shoulders?



Pretty interesting article here about AVFM  http://rockingmre.blogspot.com/2013/02/now-even-angry-harry-is-wrong.html


No I find it disappointing that a number of mens rights activists that I used to have a lot of respect for are taking every opportunity to pick over and distort every faltering step that AVFM  might make in its progress and evolution. Before I say more let me make clear that Angry Harry is NOT one of those opportunists I am referring to but "Rocking Mr E" is.
I don't pretend to know or fully understand whence this hyper-criticality has arisen but I have my own personal suspicions. Anyway to correct some of Mr E's inaccuracies in the article.
The article that Angry Harry and Paul Elam fell out about was not about "recovered memory syndrome" - the actual title of the article was "The rapists & victims they refuse to see" written by former marine James Landrith. In that article James describes a rape wherein he was raped while incapacitated and initially unconscious etc. Angry Harry begins to cast doubt on the veracity of James Landrith's account - he doesn't accuse James of knowingly lying but he begins to assert that what James described was a "recovered memory" and that he feels compelled to point this out etc. Paul Elam and some others at AVFM supported James account now at this stage let me say I really don't know which of those two sides was factually correct because as far as I know there were no witnesses to what transpired in that hotel room apart from James and his alleged rapist.
In short I have sympathy with both sides  - with Angry Harry's POV because I do appreciate the risks to our credibility when we post allegatory articles like that of events that happened (or not) such a long time ago. Those who know the author of such accounts very well may well be in a better position than most others to judge how trustworthy a source they are but for most readers they won't have that privilege. Certainly I have been personally critical when feminists have printed accounts concerning allegations of rape as if they were proven facts so I could appreciate Harry's concerns. That said Paul believes in the mans integrity and doesn't accept Angry Harry conjecture that James account is merely a "recovered memory" and not a reliable account of what actually happened.
All I can say is that since the article was published I have not seen another similar being published on the site and I am very happy about that for many of the reasons of credibility that I outlined earlier.
Rocking Mr E also claimed that AVFM is also guilty of "endorsing marxism" and provides links to a couple of articles published last year on AVFM.
Lets take the first article linked to called "MRM Marxism?" - this wasn't AVFM endorsing "marxism" but rather allowing a marxist supporter who also supported mens rights to explain his left wing philosophy and what makes fellow mra marxists like himself "tick". I thought this was a very positive thing to do because I can think of a certain country (five letters - first letter is "c" and last is "a") where this understanding could be extremely useful in the future. Some individuals though were very upset that this article got published because despite a consultation amongst supporters of AVFM overwhelmingly supporting an apolitical stance in it's activism there were others like Bernard Chapin who refused to accept that with good grace and were miffed that their partisan view did not prevail. I find this highly ironic because on balance I would say that the majority of AVFM supporters including Paul Elam favour the right in their personal political views than the left! 
This is why I chuckled when I saw Mr E write the following:

"Here lies the contradiction. Paul doesn't see the leftists, almost at the point of total domination at AVfM, as comparable to fascism."
This is pure paranoid bullshit - the takeover by "lefties" most certainly has not occurred unless you think being "inclusive" and tolerant of differences (in a genuine sense) is the exclusive province of the left! Certainly there are many right wing supporters (some very high profile) who see the wisdom of not trying to dictate what politics an mens rights supporter must follow in order to be regarded as a valid activist.
To say this kind of "reds under the beds" hyperbole is misplaced is an understatement. AVFM is managed and run by a Texan not exactly known for being tolerant of attempts to bully him into compromising what he sees as his mission and that the support he has for that mission is despite what some naysayers are trying to claim is actually rapidly growing. Only today in fact AVFM has published an article pointing out that it has now outgrown not only Feministing but also The Good Men Project the latter starting out with a massive investment of funding!
Success alas often brings resentments in certain quarters and while I don't pretend that everything AVFM does and says is beyond reproach it has got it right where it matters far more times than not.
When you see the likes of Erin Pizzey giving it her backing and active support  you can bet that that isn't just empty rhetoric on my my part.
Contact dr e  Lifeboats for the ladies and children, icy waters for the men.  Women have rights and men have responsibilties.

Tigerman

#83
Mar 16, 2013, 10:57 AM Last Edit: Mar 16, 2013, 11:11 AM by Tigerman
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So Tigerman -  How do you understand the dissent of people like Factory, Angry Harry, Mr E, and likely others, and their departure from AVFM?  Do you see this as totally a function of their own personal difficulties and/or diverging viewpoints or do you see any responsibility on AVFM's shoulders?


In the case of Angry Harry I don't think he has dissented at all from what AVFM is trying to achieve or even with it's MO of activism. As far as I am aware AH fell out with Paul over one specific article and one specific issue ie recovered memories (although I must stress again in the incident that caused the fallout there was no proof either way whether the article was written as a result of a recovered memory,).
With some of the other dissenters like Bernard Chapin - the dissent is clearly more based on politics of a more partisan nature - the decision (widely supported) at AVFM to become overtly politically neutral upset some activists especially some identifying with the right that felt that a struggle to obtain mens rights and defeat feminism meant defeating the left by taking on right wing ideals and goals.
Another factor that might explain dissent is perhaps resulting from deliberate mischief making by certain activists spreading either outright lies and\or misinformation about what is going on at AVFM  and where it is headed.  The "AVFM is promoting Gay Rights" is just one recent example of this kind of total bullshit. Trouble is as I said in another of my responses recently, most folks are intellectually lazy.
This intellectual laziness is often especially the case if they are told something by a person they respect  - anyone who visited AVFM  and looked for themselves would struggle to find a single article article promoting "Gay Rights" and of course the reason for this is simple ie there aren't any!
In my exchanges with Factory I kept getting the feeling we were talking about totally different websites for the most part. It was actually with some relief that after reading Factory's exchanges with Paul Elam (which Factory kindly posted here) that Paul was also as mystified as I was in making sense of Factory's accusations.
All that said it is undeniable that with the increasing high profile that popularity has brought to AVFM it's adoption of a robust commenting policy has upset a lot of folks both old timers and relative newbies.
Even with such a robust policy (esp against promotion of violence in any form) AVFM still gets accused (without foundation) of being a "hate group full of angry white men". The good side of this policy though bears fruit when folks come here to investigate for themselves and discover they had been lied to by feminists.
So although it is sad and regrettable that sometimes even a veteran MRA might end up earning a ban for what might have been a momentary lapse where they made an expression of violence never intending for it to be carried out the policy nevertheless has a very sound basis and priotises the our shared goals over individual indulgences - one can have endless arguments about this prioritisation but at least the policy is clear and has a positive aim.
I myself am a veteran MRA ever since I discovered alt.feminism and soc.men in usenet way back in 1997. All that time i have regarded myself as nothing more than a footsoldier in a long struggle to restore rights and justice to boys and men because of this I have never suffered much from the kind of ego clashes that are the hazard of becoming a more high profile activist.
I am also quite a hot blooded person in real life and on a few occasions my big mouth has come close to getting myself killed (esp. when I was living and working in Northern Ireland in the 90's I could give examples but it is off topic and might distract from the serious issue under discussion) or seriously injured.
Even so thus far I haven't really had a problem following the guidelines but then again I make effort to be conscious that anything I write there could be used by a smaller but hostile audience to bring discredit to what we are collectively trying to achieve. This discipline came in very handy when trying to deal with Factory's initial responses in this very thread the old "hothead" me would have responded somewhat differently! lol
Okay I was making light of something there but on a more serious note it has occurred to me that a lot of changes we seek in society we somehow expect them to be "done" for us without us as individuals having to make changes. Take the understanding that we coiuld make more progress by becoming more overtly inclusive and welcoming to ALL categories of human beings as long as they support our quest & mission withiut any hidden agendas of their own. It was one thing for this to make sense logically but it did make me question just how open and inclusive were my real life attitudes and to cut a long story short it was this kind of self confrontation that I needed to learn to live my life in a more consistently conscious way.  Old habits die hard as they say so it would be unrealistic to expect overnight transformations - that said I do follow a daily discipline one oif the side effects of which is a "raising of consciousness" for wont of a better expression(not a proselytizer so won't go into here even though it is not a religion I follow).
Another old saying that has applicable wisdom is "practice makes perfect" ie the more I practice living my life consciously the more easier and pleasurable it gets. Other MRA's at AVFM both editorially and members who only comment (like me) have reached similar understandings ie that personal growth and being more conscious of ones humanity and thereby finding it easier to recognise others, is a synchronicity that I find delightful but more realistically it is just probably a case of birds of a feather etc.
Anyway I happen to have a discipline or practice in my life that helps me to  stay on track with the MHRA perspective adopted by AVFM but I do not follow that practice or discipline to become a better MRA that (hopefully) is just a side effect. I have my daily discipline as a means to focus my awareness more on that "power" or force is maintaining my actual existence (ie life itself) because the human tendency is to take that completely for granted and thereby squander the very precious time we have here.
Other MRA's (or MHRA's I don't care so much about the labels more the intent) perhaps have other disciplines or practices some like are devout Christians others are devout atheists it's all good because it is the goodwill that counts and the willingness to give each other a little elbow room.
To summarize though I will say that overall I am genuinely baffled on the level of dissent that has occurred and my explanations are not offered with any strong confidence. Certainly I do see a lot of out and out misrepresentation and even lies being spread about AVFM but some criticisms are valid in their own right and I won't be a hypocrite and pretend otherwise. That said it is important not to overestimate or over emphasise the level of dissent as AVFM is still a rapidly growing resource in taking the fight to the enemy and gaining us new allies in the process. AVFM has now outstripped both the Feministing and The Good Men Project websites in terms of popularity.
As far as I'm concerned I don't mind some fragmentation as long as said fragments don't waste too much of their energies shadow boxing.  :toothy9:
Oh one last thing sabout Factory - I did not realise until last night that he has written and had published TWENTY ONE articles for AVFM in the past. I haven't read most of them but I have scanned a few them and was impressed with his writing - he clearly has a talent for this so speaking personally I really hope he can resolve his issues (positively hopefully) and continue to produce the kind of high class articles he has written in the past either at AVFM or anywhere else to promote greater understanding of the human dimension of our issues.

CaptDMO

Stunning.
I haven't seen such an impressive display of passive aggressive pseudo intellectual drivel, masquerading in dismissive Humanities undergrad script language, since Barbara Boxer tried desperately to dodge responsability for recently assaulting The Constitution.

Besides, I'm out of popcorn.

Tigerman


Stunning.
I haven't seen such an impressive display of passive aggressive pseudo intellectual drivel, masquerading in dismissive Humanities undergrad script language, since Barbara Boxer tried desperately to dodge responsability for recently assaulting The Constitution.

Besides, I'm out of popcorn.


Whose post(s) are you referring to??

Factory


Stunning.
I haven't seen such an impressive display of passive aggressive pseudo intellectual drivel, masquerading in dismissive Humanities undergrad script language, since Barbara Boxer tried desperately to dodge responsability for recently assaulting The Constitution.

Besides, I'm out of popcorn.


Nailed it.

Tigerman



Stunning.
I haven't seen such an impressive display of passive aggressive pseudo intellectual drivel, masquerading in dismissive Humanities undergrad script language, since Barbara Boxer tried desperately to dodge responsability for recently assaulting The Constitution.

Besides, I'm out of popcorn.


Nailed it.


CaptDMO couldn't name one fucking thing I said wrong - you hosed down this forum with more total shit about AVFM than a cow with diaorhea. You finally produced a copy of the dialog that supposedly to back up all your paranoid rantings and allegations against AVFM. The only problem is that all it confirmed is that you are currently fucking delusional and Paul Elam the one man who even YOU acknowledged helped you in your hour of need not that long beforehand still extended to you a patience and forbearance towards your delusional rantings that I'm sure any reasonable person would deem unwarranted.
Talk about biting the fucking hand that fed you!
There perhaps you will understand me now!
Lets not forget your the fucking turncoat

outdoors



To Factory
First of all *I* am not AVFM. AVFM is there - it exists and so far I support it aims and goals ONLY because they largely coincide with my own personally held convictions.
Nor am I happy with all that is decided or that goes on there but I don't have to be - it is not my site and if I don't like it enough I can ignore it and move on.
I understand and sympathise perhaps more than you think that indeed some veteran MRA's have had their noses put out of joint in clashes with site policy and\or some of any of the moderators there. I was very saddened by the clash between Angry Harry and Paul Elam for example. Had I been in charge of the site I may well reacted differently than Paul .
I still read Angry Harry's articles and I have enormous respect and love for the man.
It was he prior to the last Gulf war that initially annoyed me with his opposition to the coming campaign - at the time I was still stupid and gullible enough to believe that the offensive was for the good of the poor Iraqi's, the Gulf in general and world peace (due to the elimination of the non-existent weapons of mass destruction etc). Yet Harry's voice troubled me - Harry foresaw the coming carnage and the undue collateral damage as a basic affront to humanity and boy was he right although it took me longer than I am proud to admit to see his perspective and agree with it.
I am not the sycophant you think I am. Like I said before AVFM  is a weapon and in my view it is being honed into an ever more effective one - so please for the sake of your own nervous system chill the fuck out and let it do it's work. :)



Jesus.  How many times do I have to say this before it gets through your thick skull?

I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE 'AGENDA' AT AVfM.  I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE 'GAY AGENDA'.  I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM....GET IT!?!?!?

For fuck sakes.

What I DO have a problem with, is the asshat way that the masthead there (and YOU are included in this statement) along with many 'commenters', have taken a 'Our way or fuck off' attitude.  I DON'T GIVE A FUCK about the 'gay agenda' shit..  What I DO GIVE A FUCK ABOUT is the way Paul and Dr F and the rest of those assholes simply turned on many MRAs and essentially branded them (us?) as 'extremists'.

And THAT is a fucking cunty asshole move, on ANY FUCKING LEVEL.  They better hope AVfM serves all their 'activism needs', because they just sent a messgae to MRAs everywhere...'tow the line, or we'll turn on you like we did 'The Father of the MRM' and others.  It was an ego-driven fucking power grab, and it shows just how shitty those people really are, how little they understand the concepts of 'loyalty' and 'consensus', and most importantly of all, it shows how Paul and the Gang will toss your dried husk over their shoulder the instant they are done getting what they want from you.

The REAL killer here, though, is that NONE OF YOU WILL ADMIT THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED...and instead choose to paint anyone who disagrees as 'egotistical extremists that hate Gays'....you know, like you keep fucking insisting on trying to do?

You're all fucking traitors, and users, and you have shown me that the VAST majority of MRAs aren't worth even a little bit of respect.  Now, FUCKING READ THIS AND UNDERSTAND, you traitorous fuck, that I will not take your baseless accusations lying down.  In fact, I'll fucking work my ass off to sink that site, and the WHOLE FUCKING MOVEMENT if I have to, before I will give you, Paul, Dr F, or any of those other assholes so much as the time of day.

Now, FUCK OFF you sycophant.



Lol.

I wasn't even gonna come back to this thread.

Thanks Factory. 

Elam's narcissism and arrogance are just to much for most common mra's.

The lines have already been drawn into the sand,there is a definate split in the mrm since Elam attacked MRO and other's,for no other reason than they didn't think Elam was the self-proclaimed god he wants us to believe.

Damn-I have even seen people lifetime banned from his forum for(get this) making a suggestion under the suggestion topic

FFS

What did one of Elam's kittens say when people were making suggestions and comments about the "H" in the new mrm.

"You Can All Fuck Right Off".  Yep,a raspy voiced freak telling mra's to get the fuck out of the mrm.(our movement).

Then Elam showed his true colours the other day on you-tube when he pretty well said that if he has not heard of someone then they are of no significance or of any use to him and should get lost.

Not to mention a past promised obligation toward's am.com where Elam promised to exchange banner's and promote advertising between the two along with a donation for allowing one of his followers to use am.com for a funding drive for avfm.

Elam turned his back,removed all of am.com's banner's and never did come back and make the donation.

The man has no integrity whatsoever.

Wish I wouldn't have removed my previous comment.

You need help sinking his ship,just let me know.

outdoors


Quote

CaptDMO couldn't name one fucking thing I said wrong - you hosed down this forum with more total shit about AVFM than a cow with diaorhea. You finally produced a copy of the dialog that supposedly to back up all your paranoid rantings and allegations against AVFM. The only problem is that all it confirmed is that you are currently fucking delusional and Paul Elam the one man who even YOU acknowledged helped you in your hour of need not that long beforehand still extended to you a patience and forbearance towards your delusional rantings that I'm sure any reasonable person would deem unwarranted.
Talk about biting the fucking hand that fed you!
There perhaps you will understand me now!
Lets not forget your the fucking turncoat



Ya,turncoat,sure whatever you say...... and Elam isn't?

He was once a member of MRO and even thanked Chris Key for allowing him to be on that site as he was thankfull he found it.

Then turned around and attacked Chris in an attempt to look like some sort of fucking hero over something that Chris could have been swayed into another direction on.

He didn't reach out to Chris and/or explain the situation,Elam attacked like a fucking bully,resulting in Chris's ocd kicking in and shutting down the site. Ya a real fuckin' man he is.

Never mind Elams underhanded tactic's at poaching the top mra's from across the mrm,including Erin Pizzey.



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