this is what we are up against

Started by dr e, Jan 20, 2005, 11:26 AM

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CaptDMO

Oh brother-Nikki Craft
Feminist site that  may have some insight to  the world of Prof. Schwyzer.
*sigh*In My Humble Opinion-worth a look.

A look at his links may also provide insight to where he's at. The usual suspects.

It's just as easy to consider his site another feminist site that has an unusual agenda.

That's all the free print I care to give!

angryharry

Well. Looking on the bright side. This effeminate 'softie' might well have given Glenn Sacks some much needed publicity.

Indeed, the amount of publicity that he has generated will directly reflect the amount of influence that he has.

Hurrah for Hugo!

:-)
ttp://www.angryharry.com ... the only site in the entire world with the aforementioned domain address

neonsamurai

I'm not sure if this guy has even had a debate with an MRA. Admittedly I've only seen what's written here, but there's so many holes in his arguments:

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Much of the misogyny of the men's rights movement is directed towards feminists. Just as racists in the Old South divided blacks into "good negroes" and "uppity troublemakers", so misogynists create a dichotomy of "good women" (submissive, eager to please, able to "take a joke", uncritical of bad male behavior) and "feminazis" (women who demand accountability from men and who ask to be taken seriously as human beings.)


Firstly, he's doing the very thing that he's accusing us of doing. To him there are 'good men' (submissive, eager to please, able to "take a joke", uncritical of bad female behaviour) and 'MRAs' (men who demand accountability from women and who ask to be taken seriously as human beings.)

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To say one likes individual women, therefore, is no defense against the charge of misogyny. Plenty of racists like individual members of other ethnic groups. To be hostile to the movement that seeks to liberate women is enough, in my book, to merit the charge of misogyny.
Misogyny is also institutionalized in our society.


But he's just isolated us as a group. He likes good men but hates MRAs, so he's just as blinkered to what he's doing as he claims racists and bigots are.

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Perhaps it is my Christian faith informing my feminism, but I am convinced that pornography is the representative art form of a woman-hating culture. In porn, women exist to fulfill men's desires -- they have no real agency of their own. To see anyone as existing only to serve you and to fulfill you is, feminists have argued, a practical form of hatred.


So if magazines dedicated to male pornography, or aimed at gay men existed, wouldn't that indicate that our culture also hated men? If a gay man looks at gay porn, who does he hate? To try and isolate the need for pornographic images as a hetrosexual male only pursuit, he has missed half of the picture.

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Relatively few men who use porn are conscious of hating women. But regular use of porn inevitably desensitizes the viewer to the humanity and dignity of all of the women with whom he interacts. It defies all we know about human psychology to say that a fellow can go from masturbating to images on his TV or computer screen into interactions with real women without objectifiying them.


Yes, but I don't hear him (or the feminists) complaining about gay porn. Again they have used an argument that hits only at the specific part of the population they dislike. Are they suggestion that after hetro porn has been abolished they will go after gay porn? Why not go for gay porn first? Oh yeah. That would discriminate.

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Let's be clear here. Most folks, if they are really honest about it, go through periods of their lives where they experience (with varying degrees of intensity) authentic dislike for the other sex. Many will go through periods where they also dislike their own.


Proving what? At some time we all hate everybody? This is bearing in mind that women don't look at pornography, yet they still find it in themselves to hate men?

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( Self-loathing among young women is famous -- if I had a dollar for every young woman I've worked with who's said "All my good friends are guys" or "Girls are too competitive, I don't like them" I'd have enough money to pay for a sweet honeymoon!)


I hope that Dr Hugo then pointed out to them that such statements are biggoted. But how is 'I hate x' self loathing? Isn't the ultimate form of self loathing suicide?

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Most of us take our own personal negative experiences and, at least for a while, allow them to make us fundamentally suspicious of (and perhaps openly hostile to) the other sex. This is one form of genuine misogyny -- or, yes, misandry.


Thank you Dr Hugo. But feminists don't do this do they? Which is one of the main points we try to make. Like a typical feminazi stooge he believes that God could also be a woman, but the Devil, oh no he's a man. No question.

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We are eager to evade personal responsibility. An anti-Semite can comfort herself by saying, "Oh, I don't hate Jews -- Hitler hated Jews. I just think that they have too much influence in our culture." A racist can say: "Oh, I don't agree with the Klan. But if my daughter brought home a black man, well, I'd be pretty unhappy about that."


"Oh I don't hate Steve -- My boss hates Steve. I just think Steve has too much influence in office politics."

"Oh I don't agree with the Feminists. But if my daughter brought home an MRA, well I'd be pretty unhappy about that."

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While the men's rights movement sees organized feminism as its adversary, pro-feminist men see feminist women as our allies.


And how many of us here supported feminism when it first arrived? Equality? That sounded good. Trouble is too many feminists read 'Animal Farm' and found themselves to be more equal.

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Pro-feminist men don't ask women to do for us what we can do for ourselves (such as tell us how to feel, or motivate us to transform);


Yeah. None of us ask for that. It just 'happens'.

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nor are we interested in taking leadership roles in the women's movement.


I wonder why they don't want a man as the head of NOW?

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Rather, we work in solidarity with each other, honoring our differences as well as our common goal.


This is the usual 'we celebrate diversity BS' that I get at work. It's very one sided.

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I got involved in the men's movement out of a sense of frustration with the superficial nature of most of my relationships with men. (See my "popular posts" sidebar for earlier posts on men.) I also came to the men's movement out of a sense of righteous pro-feminist anger.


"I don't hate other men -- Feminists hate other men. I just think their relationships are superficial."

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I'll be the first to admit, I didn't like other men when I was younger. But doing men's work led me to love and cherish other men -- without becoming hostile towards women.


Except MRA's. I'd ask Dr Hugo, how it is he's able to call the men's movement misogynistic and love all men, but we (or maybe Glenn) is able to call feminists misandrists and is a sexist?

Ah! Whatever!
Dr. Kathleen Dixon, the Director of Women's Studies: "We forbid any course that says we restrict free speech!"

D

Quote from: "angryharry"
Well. Looking on the bright side. This effeminate 'softie' might well have given Glenn Sacks some much needed publicity.

Indeed, the amount of publicity that he has generated will directly reflect the amount of influence that he has.

Hurrah for Hugo!

:-)



They kind of have no choice now.  They have to go on the attack.

I bet you a box of donuts this Hugo guy is related to the international banking cartel in someway.  ie the Rockefellers, Rothchilds or some government agency that financially benifits in someway and is threatened by the men's movement.  The cash cow of the bureaucrates are at stake here.

If not he is simply a capitalist looking to score some quick dollar points on the publicity himself.

HarryPawedHer

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We are eager to evade personal responsibility.  An anti-Semite can comfort herself by saying, "Oh, I don't hate Jews -- Hitler hated Jews.  I just think that they have too much influence in our culture."  A racist can say: "Oh, I don't agree with the Klan.  But if my daughter brought home a black man, well, I'd be pretty unhappy about that."  


I'm half black.  I hate racists.  Some white people choose to be racist.  Therefore I must hate all white people.

How does your own logic taste, fool?  I hope you choke.

I hate golf.  Therefore, if anyone on this board likes golf, I'd just like you to know that I hate you (according to this guy).

FEMINAZIHATEMARTYR

It wouldnt surprise me to learn that Hugo and "Mrniceguy" are one and the same.
What good fortune for government that people do not think."
                         Adolph Hitler

"Where madness rules the absurd is not far away."

We must not make the mistake of thinking that all those who eat the bread of dictatorship are evil from the first; but they must necessarily become evil....The curse of a system of terror is that there is no turning back; neither in the large realm of policies nor the 'smaller' realm of everyday human relationships is it possible for men to retrace their steps."
- Dr. Hans Bernd Gisevius
(1904-1974)

dr e

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It wouldnt surprise me to learn that Hugo and "Mrniceguy" are one and the same.


I agree, but sadly there are millions of these types.  Most with the remarkable distinction of not having separated from mommy.  If they were in the Jack and the Beanstalk story they would have yet to have their beans thrown out the window if you know what I mean.  They are still addicted to pleasing women.
Contact dr e  Lifeboats for the ladies and children, icy waters for the men.  Women have rights and men have responsibilties.

Steve

Quote from: "Dr Evil"
I agree, but sadly there are millions of these types. ... They are still addicted to pleasing women.

Indeed, Dr. E!

Perhaps even more sad is that the addiction causes such men to hate themselves and other men.

rantmeister

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But regular use of porn inevitably desensitizes the viewer to the humanity and dignity of all of the women with whom he interacts.


So I guess occasional use of porn is OK? And does fucking your wife on a regular basis desensitize you the humanity and dignity of all women?

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It defies all we know about human psychology to say that a fellow can go from masturbating to images on his TV or computer screen into interactions with real women without objectifiying them.


I wonder what goes on in Dr. Hugo's head when he's choking the chicken? Are the hot babes that star his own fantasies more pure than those found on computer screens? What exactly pushes him over the edge? And where do those sexual images in his head come from anyway? If not porn, then he must engage in a bit of "objectifying" of the real women he interacts with. Or is he saying he doesn't engage in such degrading self exploitation at all? If that's the case, this tirade against his own gender is just a symptom of a much larger problem.

HarryPawedHer

We don't know anything about human psychology.

Roy

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Dr. E. observed -- I agree, but sadly there are millions of these types. Most with the remarkable distinction of not having separated from mommy. If they were in the Jack and the Beanstalk story they would have yet to have their beans thrown out the window if you know what I mean. They are still addicted to pleasing women.


Agreed. And, where is this addiction formed?

I know this not an original or especially insightful thought, but since the feminists always come down on the side of "nurture" in the nature (inherent biological tendencies) vs. nurture (social-construction of gender) debate, how come they conveniently forget who men's primary nurturing identity-constructors are?

I.E. - mothers, day-care providers, and elementary school teachers... all approximately 90% women! (Excepting mothers, who still somehow confound social constructivism with a 100% ratio.)

Logically, if one accepts the premise of an Evil Patriarchy that socially conditions men to believe in their inherent right of "power and control" over women (thanks, Duluth Model), then it's impossible to escape the conclusion that mothers, day-care providers, and elementary school teachers are the primary carriers and indoctrinators of male privilege!

Or maybe it's a reverse psychology phenomenon. After a typical decade plus under the thrall of a matriachal/feminist system, perhaps there's something "innate" in the male species that rebels against such an unnatural conditioning regime?

Is it possible that the feminists' hostility to motherhood is a subconcious recognition that their enemy lies within? Nah... they threw out Freud along with the baby's bathwater long ago.
It's a terrible thing ... living in fear." (Roy - hunted replicant. "Blade Runner.")

dr e

You are right Roy, the fems are long on rights and short on responsibiltiy.  We can't hold our breaths waiting for them to examine their side of things.  It's a one way valve, men have responsibilities and women have rights.

The origin of the "pleasing women" thing is interesting.  Surely some of it is nurture and women driven but there is another part that is physical and related to the boys having been a part of the mothers body and slowly learns that he is a separate being.  His ride is much bumpier than his sisters.  He goes through his first separation from mom at about age 3 or so when mom keeps him from touching her breasts and genitals and disallows him in the bathroom with her.  This is a blow for the little guy and he sees his sister not having to play by the same rules.  So pleasing mom starts to take on more importance as does his corresponding necessary interest in independence.  These patterns get locked in and unless the boy learns alternative modes of relating to women he is sunk in the world of pleasing and appeasing.  Usually in late adolescence the boy finds a way to break away from mom, often in an actual fist fight or a pushing match of some sort where both he and mom wake up to what is happening.  Sadly in our culture this awakening is becoming more and more rare with fathers being less available and men in general being more scarce in the family.
Contact dr e  Lifeboats for the ladies and children, icy waters for the men.  Women have rights and men have responsibilties.

Sir Jessy of Anti

Something else about Ms. Hugo Swartz.  He seems to think his feminism is a 'mission from God'.  Talk about your atypical messianic delusions.
"The man who speaks to you of sacrifice, speaks of slaves and masters. And intends to be the master." -- Ayn Rand<br /><br />

Roy

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Dr. E. -- So pleasing mom starts to take on more importance as does his corresponding necessary interest in independence.


I'd invite you to write more on this topic of boys' maturation. Great insights!

Though you perhaps left out the part about psychologically wanting to kill the father...

Sure, I've read Oedipus too.

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Webster's -- Oedipus Complex: the positive libidinal feelings of a child toward the parent of the opposite sex and hostile or jealous feelings toward the parent of the same sex that may be a source of adult personality disorder when unresolved.


I'm surprised the rad fems have overlooked this male vulnerability.

Or, maybe they haven't?
It's a terrible thing ... living in fear." (Roy - hunted replicant. "Blade Runner.")

Thomas

Roy bespoke:
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I'd invite you to write more on this topic of boys' maturation. Great insights!

I agree.

I'd also enjoy your insights into what girls go through at this age. It seems that they also have a tough row to hoe. Granted boys have to accept being cast away from the mother at a very tender age, and they, as a result, develop a strong independence, but it seems that girls (accepting, for the sake of argument, that heterosexuality is at least somewhat natural) have to evolve out of the attraction to and physical love of the mother as their attraction turns to the father and then to males outside of the family.

While boys' journey might lead to more independence, girls journey might lead to an inclination to think outside of the box. I mean, being attracted to members of the other sex? WHOA!

Damn. If we ever decided to work together with our complimentary differences...
We Are Self-Exterminating Through The Collapse Of Fertility Rates.
The Death of Birth.
Fertility Rates Magazine.

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