Dr. Hugo: Ejaculation = Conscious Commitment to Fatherhood

Started by Roy, Mar 16, 2005, 08:37 PM

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becksbolero

Quote from: "CaptDMO"
What Mr. Schwyzer may opine- is worthy of note becaaaaause..............?

How the devoted children of his congragation may recieve it- is important becaaaaause.......?


I think CaptDMO that your primary question is answered by your second question.

Children have a tendency of retaining and learning what their told, especially if their "Devoted".
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

realman

"Treating women as irresponsible children that society will bail out with laws and options when they screw up, but men as responsible people who have to uphold the responsibilities put upon them when they make a mistake ... what a loss of human rights for women."


Galt, you hit it right on the head with this one. I have long held the same position, that so much of feminism just makes women into helpless incompetent victims...talk about irony...

I think it would do society a lot of good if this irony could start creeping into the mainstream awareness... it would be kind of like David hitting the Goliath of feminism right between the eyes...women only buy into feminist sexist misadndric bullsh*t because they are bombarded with it everywhere and nobody tells them any different. They NEED to start hearing "different".

Roy

Dr. Hugo credits SYG with increasing his web site's exposure dramatically!

In today's confessional (http://www.hugoboy.typepad.com), the good professor writes --

Quote
Choice and Hugo is a cyborg...

Lots of discussion going on about the upcoming Sacks show and my opposition to Choice For Men.  One thing I'll say for Glenn, he sends my traffic spiking.  Last time I was on his show in January, I went from under 2000 unique hits a day to just about 5000.  In recent weeks, my hits had fallen back into the low 2000s, but today we're back above the 4K mark.

The only problem is that I fear Typepad will eventually start charging me more for the extra bandwidth.

Amp has completely changed the look of his blog (it looks terrific and loads more easily). He's also weighed in on the subject of Choice For Men:

Both men and women should have every reproductive choice biologically possible. For men and women both, that means they should have the choice not to f*ck, if they don't want to. For men and women both, that means they should have access to every kind of birth control. And for women, that should mean access to abortion.

Cutting either men or women off from their biologically possible options is wrong, in my view. But "abortion" just isn't one of men's biologically possible options.
To say "well, if an argument's valid for women, then it should be valid for men as well" is true most of the time - but it's not true in a discussion of abortion, because men can't have abortions. Men and women are not, when it comes to this issue, identically situated; and it's illogical to act as if they are.
(The bold is in the original, the expletive was altered by me.)


Amp and I agree on most things -- except, perhaps for abortion.  

I am really worried that we won't be able to get away from the abortion discussion on Sunday's show.  It really is not what I want to discuss.  I remain strongly pro-life, but I also remain committed to my self-imposed period of silence on the subject.  

It's not cowardice that keeps me quiet -- it's a profound and painful ambivalence rooted in a viscerally powerful connection to all sides of this immensely complex topic.  If forced, I will say that I do oppose abortion, but am unsure as to whether the state ought to ban the procedure in most instances.  I freely admit to vacillating on this.  Though I haven't written about it, I have been praying for wisdom and discernment on this subject regularly.

Still, I think it is possible to emphasize the basic point that both men and women ought to approach sex with an awareness of its procreative design and possibilities.  

I believe that every conceived child is entitled to be born, and that once born, every child is entitled to the physical and financial support of both parents.  I recognize that male and female differences mean that women will, in our current legal environment, get to make decisions after conception and before birth that men will not get to make.  That is not a function of unfairness, unless you consider biology itself unfair.  I'll save the rest of my argument for Sunday.

If you're interested, a reader alerts me that the fellas at Stand Your Ground are on my case; she also informs me that the much farther-out types at Mancoat Forum have, shall we say, an even more extreme take.  I rather liked this bit:

This "Hugo" (whom I suspect isn't human, but is in reality a cyborg from the future who has been sent-back through a Time-Tunnel to trigger the apocalypse) is an interesting character.

Oh, now I am flattered.  

But before I trigger the apocalypse, I need to pick up my dry-cleaning, hit the gym and the trails of the arroyo, and go home to grade papers in front of the TV (watching the NCAA, of course).  And I'll make dinner, tend to Matilde, and spend time with my fiancee.   The life of a cyborg is deceptively mundane.


I found the above sentiment disingenuous, as I find most of Dr. Hugo's writing --

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Still, I think it is possible to emphasize the basic point that both men and women ought to approach sex with an awareness of its procreative design and possibilities.


I wonder if he held this view back just a few years ago when he was a committed sexual predator inseminating his naive female students for the sport of it?

I know he's now a devout (self-proclaimed) Christian.

Every man who'd like a "teflon-coated" faith-lite to excuse his past transgressions needs to imitate Dr. Hugo.

I'm still wagering that he'll discover that karma is a real bitch!
It's a terrible thing ... living in fear." (Roy - hunted replicant. "Blade Runner.")

bukowski

"Cutting either men or women off from their biologically possible options is wrong, in my view. But "abortion" just isn't one of men's biologically possible options.
To say "well, if an argument's valid for women, then it should be valid for men as well" is true most of the time - but it's not true in a discussion of abortion, because men can't have abortions. Men and women are not, when it comes to this issue, identically situated; and it's illogical to act as if they are."




The point with abortion, I believe, is that women have the choice to have the baby or not.  "My body, my choice" would therefore mean you are responsible for the choices you make concerning your body.  Not someone else.  

You need the state to enforce fatherhood, because some women choose to have babies, that some men didn't choose to have!  Giving birth to the "deadbeat dad" that feminists can then scapegoat for the negative repercussions of some women's choices with their bodies.

scarbo

Quote from: "bukowski"
The point with abortion, I believe, is that women have the choice to have the baby or not.  "My body, my choice" would therefore mean you are responsible for the choices you make concerning your body.


Not enough attention is given to this statement, this philosophy. Yeah, it's your body, your "choice", but if you choose to not use birth control and then choose to abort the end result, I do NOT have remain silent about what I think about your choices, how you "choose" to use your body.

Another way of looking at it: abusing your body by getting it addicted to drugs is another "choice". But society IS "allowed" to frown upon and punish those that make that choice.

Another comment: if women want to be the only ones in control of their bodies, then perhaps they should give themselves the abortions they desire. Why drag other people into your life "choice" (meaning, the doctors, the nurses, etc. who perform the act) and make them also face a moral decision because YOU decided to "control" your body in a certain way.

Last comment: in my humble opinion, a woman who decides to have sex without birth control and ends up pregnant, and decides to abort, has NOT demonstrated to me that she has "control" over her body.

CaptDMO

Quote from: "napnip"



Perhaps I'm not understanding your statement, but as I see it, it's just the opposite:  far too many lawmakers are taking him seriously.  Or at least, are taking his views seriously, and adopting them as their own.

For every "men are evil, women are angels" argument Hugo promotes, there's a law or politician or judge who enforces such a view.  Current DV policy, current family law courts, current funding for men's health issues, etc...., all demonstrate a willingness on the part of politicians to take Hugo and his views far to seriously.


He's nothing but a flyspeck. I see more bug in the ear crap with the current 'Dear Abby," -nationally syndicated-with just enough "balance" to fly under the radar. There are people who accept her "advice" as religious.
I propose that all men read it for two weeks and make up their own minds.

fezzik

Quote
I believe that every conceived child is entitled to be born, and that once born, every child is entitled to the physical and financial support of both parents. I recognize that male and female differences mean that women will, in our current legal environment, get to make decisions after conception and before birth that men will not get to make. That is not a function of unfairness, unless you consider biology itself unfair. I'll save the rest of my argument for Sunday.


That is a function of unfairness. It is our laws, not biology, that have made the determination that possession of the child grants decision making rights to one parent. Other cultures and earlier versions of our own culture have handled this differently. Prior to the Victorians, children were assumed to be the property of the father, who held final say over everything in the family. Those laws about already-born children weren't based any more on biology than the current set.

In argueing agaist Choice for Men, this fellow appears to be against every choice currently available to women as well. His statement that 'every conceived child is entitled to be born' rules out the morning-after pill, RU-486, abortion due to incest or rape, abortion due to birth defects, abortion from a threat to the life of the mother, as well as abortion for financial or selfish reasons.

In arguing that every child has the right to two parents support, he's arguing against 'child-safe-havens', anonymous adoption, or any adoption. The two views being presented don't intersect. This guy is against any choice for anyone, and Choice 4 Men wants the same choices extended to men that women already have.
Are you a man?', that's what she asked, as if I were wearing a man mask. -- Sean Altman

Pasatiempo

Underlying this entire argument is a profound womanly arrogance. To the modern woman, the fetus is not an entity unto itself; it is nothing more than a projection of the woman's feelings about being pregnant. Thus, if she feels one way, the fetus is deemed to be cancerous tissue to be excised and tossed in the garbage. If she feels another way, the same cancerous tissue is miraculously re-deemed to be one-half of a mother/child bond that is so divine as to render the concerns of any mere male irrelevant.

Without this variable reality of tangibles, you cannot logically support a woman's right to abort and simultaneously support her power to force an unwilling man to support her whelpings. If the fetus is mere tissue at the time of conception, then the man did nothing more than help create tissue and there is no such thing as tissue support. If the tissue develops into a child, it was the woman's choice to let that happen and the man had nothing to do with it. If the fetus is human at the moment of conception, then abortion is murder.

Hugo, at least, starts out logically consistent. Since he claims to be pro-life, it logically follows that the fetus is human, the woman can't abort, and since she must bear the child, the man, equally responsible for creating it, must bear equal responsibility for supporting it. But poor Hugo is all confuzzled and conflicted and can't quite bring himself to take a firm stand as a pro-lifer. So, while he can't make up his mind about the very basis of what would make a man responsible for a child, he nonetheless finds the very idea that a man might not be responsible under certain circumstances "profoundly offensive."

Amp, on the other hand isn't confused at all: "Both men and women should have every reproductive choice biologically possible." Of course, it takes the IQ of a giant gnat and the common sense of a skeeter in a moonshine bottle to realize that it's biologically possible for a man to simply walk away. Lacking either quality one can simply see that males walking away has occurred x to the n power times in biological history. Lacking all of those qualities you can simply populate your board with think-alike lap dogs who fail to notice that your assertion leads to exactly the opposite conclusion from the one you want.

When confronted with illogic, the shame game begins. This particular variation on the shame game is called the Best Interests of the Child and  there is only one allowable conclusion to the best interests of the child - men must pay. Of course where I come from - The Land of Grownups - choice and responsibility go hand in hand. So, if we were dealing with actual adults the conclusion would be: "You are responsible for your choice. You will raise that child responsibly or you will be punished."

Amp and Hugo, like all feminists, can't quite bring themselves to treat women as full-fledged adults.  Their brand of chivalry is delicious irony. My brand of chivalry treats women as adults while not dragging down my own sex. I guess that makes me a misogynist. I know cuz Amp told me so.

Yaakovwatkins

The model that our society is using for relationships doesn't work.  When we have a relationship we attach.  When we separate we leave part of ourselves behind.  People who have a long term relationship can create a stronger healthier situation.   My marriage (29 years old) has produced a joined person consisting of a man and a woman.  I no longer know whether some of the things I do are for me, or for her or for us.  And it doesn't matter.  

The key is a responsibility based relationship rather than a rights based relationship.  

This argument about who has the rights to this or that is dysfunctional.  As long as we view sex as a recreation with unfortunate occasional side effects, we will have problems.  

If we see a relationship as a chance to give, it has a chance of working.   Who has "rights" to the child is the wrong question.  Both have a relationship with the child.  It is the mother's job to enhance her child's relationship with the father and the father's job to enhance the child's relationship with the mother.  

If they won't do that, then the child should raised by parents who can provide a sane environment.

kal147

Yaakov Wrote:

Quote
The key is a responsibility based relationship rather than a rights based relationship.


Hi Yaakov, welcome to the board. I appreciate your well-intentioned words, however, we don't live in such a perfect world. Responsibilities and rights must go hand-in-hand! One without the other causes huge problems.

Quote
This argument about who has the rights to this or that is dysfunctional. As long as we view sex as a recreation with unfortunate occasional side effects, we will have problems.


True, but as long we separate  rights from responsibilities we will likewise have problems.

Quote
Who has "rights" to the child is the wrong question. Both have a relationship with the child.


But what relationship? If the relationship was legally the same, you'd be right. However, as it stands ... the mother has the rights to abort, abandon, give up for adoption or raise the child as she sees fit; the father has no such rights. The only thing the fathers legally has is the responsibility to pay her child support in amounts set by what others dictate. She has no such responsibility.

Sir Jessy of Anti

It's funny because hugo knows that the "fellows at stand your ground"
are not all fellows.  He knows FULL WELL, and promulgates this myth to his predominantly female membership.

What a femenist
"The man who speaks to you of sacrifice, speaks of slaves and masters. And intends to be the master." -- Ayn Rand<br /><br />

Sir Jessy of Anti

And not to leave you unawares, in SJoA speak that's fah-men-ist.
"The man who speaks to you of sacrifice, speaks of slaves and masters. And intends to be the master." -- Ayn Rand<br /><br />

Yaakovwatkins

The courts will never be fair.  American law is not about justice.  It's about who wins and is inherently flawed.

But we are not in court.  The statement "I have a right to see my five year old child every day and to raise her."  may be legally correct.  But the statement, "I have a moral obligation to hug my five year old daughter everyday and to teach her and make her feel loved." is more likely to induce people to support you.

Neither one is guarranteed to work.  But the second has more potential to induce a reaction you want.

woof

Quote from: "realman"
"Treating women as irresponsible children that society will bail out with laws and options when they screw up, but men as responsible people who have to uphold the responsibilities put upon them when they make a mistake ... what a loss of human rights for women."


Galt, you hit it right on the head with this one. I have long held the same position, that so much of feminism just makes women into helpless incompetent victims...talk about irony...

I think it would do society a lot of good if this irony could start creeping into the mainstream awareness... it would be kind of like David hitting the Goliath of feminism right between the eyes...women only buy into feminist sexist misadndric bullsh*t because they are bombarded with it everywhere and nobody tells them any different. They NEED to start hearing "different".


I am impressed with the the wisdom on this board. I feel as though I climbed out from under a rock.
It took a failed marriage, false allegations of domestic violence, losing custody of my son for me to see the light.
But now it is so bright, everything is clear as a bell. Women are fighting for there right to be victims, they are victims of their bodies, victims of their relationships with men, victims of supporting themselves, or their children, victims of their choices, ect.,ect.
Thats why there are no excuses(rights) for a man, or a father when it comes to the children. The man is the only one the child has that can't leave, or abandon them. Women are making women weak and small more better than a man ever could. The only ones that will stop women from being victims, are women themselves.........you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink........
As long as a women has the right to be a victim, we as men are like suicide bombers, that have given women the button to blow up the bomb.
Even a whole village can't replace dad, children need both parents.

Roy

Woof --
Quote
Women are fighting for there right to be victims, they are victims of their bodies, victims of their relationships with men, victims of supporting themselves, or their children, victims of their choices, ect.,ect.
Thats why there are no excuses(rights) for a man, or a father when it comes to the children.


Man, I am impressed with your ability to cut it right to the bone!

All fathers, and men who may someday aspire to be fathers, MUST consider what this female "victimhood culture" means for children!

If the father is exiled from the family/partnership .... and the mother is a dyed-in-the-wool-sanctified-by-feminism victim-addict....

what do you think the kids learn?

In a rational society, being subjected to such a women on a daily basis would be legally defined as "cruel and unusual punishment" as well as child abuse.

But we know where we live.... in the feminazi rabbit hole.

Time for some major changes in the "natural" order, maybe?
It's a terrible thing ... living in fear." (Roy - hunted replicant. "Blade Runner.")

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