Ramblings on women and dating

Started by realman, Apr 20, 2005, 09:08 AM

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Ok, this is just some stuff I've been thinking about a little bit lately. I guess I'm curious to see if any agrees/disagrees or has anything to add. I will add a disclaimer that soem generalization may occur and that if I make disparaging remark about other's beliefs/interests/way of life it is not meant to be an overall condemnation of same, merely an acknowledgement that it is "not for me". Here goes...

Sometimes I feel like I'm inexperienced or clumsy when dating women...or like I'm just not what they're looking for. THis gets to me after a while. I mean, I've dated plenty of women and had some significat relationships...but at the same time, I certainly don't get much attention from females overall (but then, only about 5% of the male population do, it seems). The more I think about it, the more I think that it's true that I'm not really what most women are looking for...but I also think that's actually not a bad thing. For example, I suspect if I drove a BMW instead of a pickup truck, worked at a job that paid more money even though it wasn't a good fit for me personally, bragged more about my income and possessions, "dumbed myself down" a bit in my conversations, and showed more interest in shopping/TV shows/movies/night clubs/dancing/consumerism/self-ceteredness/shallowness/codependency/risky behavior and less interest in history/the environment/personal integrity/knowledge-seeking/hiking/reading/self-sufficiency etc. that I could attract a lot more women. But I think this is more a bad reflection of women than a bad refelction on myself. Not that I am perfect by any means-I certainly have my own set of flaws! But since I've realized this I do tend not to feel so bad abotu about not being "the man every woman wants"...because I wouldn't really want to be that man! That man is focused on sex, and very little else, and would compromise everything he has, even his own values, to give his woman whatever she wants while demanding nothing but sex in return (which is pretty close to the definition of "codependency"); he places little value on integrity or knowledge; and he must be kept "entertained" or participate in risky beahvior to seek "thrills" because he cannot find self-fulfillment in life.

Likewise, I realize that it's not that I am clumsy or inexperienced in dealing with women. It's that I know most women are looking for someone else..they're looking for a man who jumps through hoops for female approval, focuses his attention fully on her and expects nothing in return, and is interested in talking about the latest gossip/shopping/blah blah blah. They want a man who makes her the center of his universe and reduces himself to nothingness. I relaize that to do this would be to deny my own needs, beliefs, and integrity, and to become something I am not.

Fortunatley for me there are a few women out there who do not fit the usual mold and are not looking for an emotional tampon, sugar daddy, bad-boy, or someone to rescue them from their own unfulfilling life. Unfortunatley, there seem to be few women like this, and many men looking for them, so I don't get a whole lot of female attention and there are very few women who I'd really be compatible with long-term. But I don't beat myself up over it anymore (at one time I did) because I realize that while I may not be what 90% of women are looking for, I'm a better man for it. And I will not let some self-serving woman with less inetgrity, less self-awareness, and less self-esteem dictate who I should be, or how I should act in a relationship.

I do still get frustarted listening to women complain that there are so few decent men, and meanhwile being generally off their radar. I do still get frustarted that I usually must do the work to initiate relationshiops with women while they simply sit there and wait for suitors. But I've also come to realize that the problem is not just the women...half of it is MEN! Those men who are so focused on pussy that they'll act like something they;re not, compromise their beleifs and integrity, and waste their time simply for the reward of intercourse with a woman they don't even like. Those men who enter into relationships with women who are immature and manipulative and self-centered and treat them like princesses- simply because they've been taught that that is what men do.

I for one think half the problem of female sexual power, self-centeredness, etc. lies with MEN. I don' know how to go about doing it, and I do see some (like those here) who realize this, but the majority are still either completely unaware of how they're being manipulated or are vaguely aware but have not "dug deeper" . Somehow I think we need men to realize they should not put up with "girls behaving badly", not put up with female narcissism, not compromise their beliefs and values to be "what women want", and to expect that women give them the same treatment in return (as opposed to giving her whatever she wants and asking nothing but sex in return...sex which she enjoys just as much as he does!).

If we could get men to a.) realize that not being "what women want" likely means they are a better person for it and b.) realize that the current system is simply a game of manipulation which gives women the upper hand in relationships and reaps all the benefits with minimal effort....I think if thsoe two things happen en masse, the "gender war" would be more than half won- and BOTH genders would benefit because relationships could then be built on mutual appreication, love and respect instead of financial benefit, entertainment value or emotional neediness (and likewise if two people just wanted some sex they could get it, instead of a prostitue-john exchange of lifestyle/financial/emotional benefit in exchange for sex, or a situation where one party is just looking for sex and hurts the other party because they must "act like they care" in order to get the other person into bed, then "stops caring" after getting what they wanted). Women would no longer be worshipped as goddesses, they would then become human beings just like men. And for the rest of the gender issues to be resolved, women must be brought down to the level of human beings. Until then, little negotiation or intelligent dialogue can take place.

Okay, I'm gonna get off this soap box now...


Realman expressed:

I do still get frustarted listening to women complain that there are so few decent men, and meanhwile being generally off their radar. I do still get frustarted that I usually must do the work to initiate relationshiops with women while they simply sit there and wait for suitors.

I know how you feel there. A few years back a friend and I went to a party at a nice bar in London, that his friends sister was organising. Lots of georgeous women there, all nicely dressed, all with good jobs at Channel 4. We started introducing ourselves but as soon as they found out that we were in IT, that was it, they weren't interested. "Huh. I thought your brother said he knew some decent men." We heard one of them say later.

I'm not a great catch, I know that, but there seems to be a difference in what men think makes a decent guy and what women do. Sure I might not drive a Porsche, or look like Brad Pitt, but do those things make a man decent, any more than a woman's looks make her decent? As the Duke once said "respect isn't something you wear, it's something you earn."

Typhonblue posted an interesting article that she'd written a while back about treating nice girls (as in girls with manners and integrity) in the same way, but bad girls (as in princesses who think they're, like, soooo cool) with the contempt they deserve. I mean we wouldn't let another guy treat us like dirt, so why let a woman do that to us, just because they look good? Afterall, why does a nice girl need to be 'nice' if we'll accept them treating us like dirt?* Maybe this is why this whole grrrl-power-attitude-thing is so common at the moment?

Besides, I don't think women actually know what they want in a man, judging by all the 'Women want a manly man' or 'Women want a girly man' articles in the press.

Hey, and a nice rant by the way  :D

*and by 'us' I mean the other males of the species  :wink:
Dr. Kathleen Dixon, the Director of Women's Studies: "We forbid any course that says we restrict free speech!"


Thanks Neon.

"Afterall, why does a nice girl need to be 'nice' if we'll accept them treating us like dirt?* Maybe this is why this whole grrrl-power-attitude-thing is so common at the moment? "

That is how I see it...we men who don't like the current status quo need to remember that women are only acting the way they are because the collective "we" (as in, the overall male population) has let them get away with it. Ignore the brash, narcissitic, "want-it-all" "hotties" who think they're all that and a bag of chips, and see how long it takes for their attitude to change once their ego's been cut down to size...


Turn 30, have a real job, buy a house, bathe and exercise in moderation, and be free of : alcoholism, drug addiction, STDs, debt, and felony convictions, and you'll be surprised at just how attractive you've become.

Sure I might not drive a Porsche, or look like Brad Pitt

Driving a Porsche only gets you attention from guys. From women you just get 'He must be compensating!' jokes. Maybe looking like Brad Pitt is the key?
Are you a man?', that's what she asked, as if I were wearing a man mask. -- Sean Altman


And here's 'nother of those things that people apparently need to hear 7-10 times before it finally starts to really sink in:  http://www.fastseduction.com

Particularly http://www.fastseduction.com/youarenew/

And men's issues advocates/activists in particular who still don't get it should read http://www.fastseduction.com/youarenew/why.shtml

Femelitists, of course, will never get it. . .which, if they're so stupid as to comment, will no doubt be demonstrated yet again by their comments.
Non Illegitimi Carborundum, and KOT!


Umm, maybe I'm missing the point here but the "fastseduction"-type stuff is usually a "how-to" manual for kissing women's asses and giving them what they want in exchange for sex or a "relationship" (if that's what one wants to call 23 hours of BS'ing hell for an hour of fun in bed).

I didn't read the links but generally I've come to regard any of that stuff as part of the problem. Teaching men how to further kiss a woman's ass and bring her to an orgasm of psychotic narcissism in exhcange for some sex is hardly part of the solution. The only problem it provides a solution to is that of getting female "attention" (although even that is suspect since to you'd probably be giving her 100% attention in exhange for about 5% of her attention in return) and getting women into bed. It's also a really bad reflection on WOMEN that this crap works!!

While it would be nice to have women flock to me, getting the attention of women was hardly the point of my original post...


Quote from: "realman"
Umm, maybe I'm missing the point here but. . .I didn't read the links. . . .

That could be the problem, yes.
Non Illegitimi Carborundum, and KOT!


Sorry, can't access fastseduction here right now. I was responding to everything else of that ilk that I have ever read, which could basically be titled "how to kiss a woman's ass in 3 seconds flat and if you act like enough of a shallow prick who worships her, or enough of a "challenge" to be "interesting", maybe you'll get to screw her silly".

I have a hard time believing anything on "fastseduction" would have a different approach, so since I can't access the articles I'm simply addressing that type of article/website in general. The advice of that type that I've seen is great for finding 3F encounters but would be absolutely toxic to any kind of healthy long-term relationship.

Sir Jessy of Anti

Quote from: "fezzik"
Turn 30, have a real job, buy a house, bathe and exercise in moderation, and be free of : alcoholism, drug addiction, STDs, debt, and felony convictions, and you'll be surprised at just how attractive you've become.

Sure I might not drive a Porsche, or look like Brad Pitt

Driving a Porsche only gets you attention from guys. From women you just get 'He must be compensating!' jokes. Maybe looking like Brad Pitt is the key?

As a former Porsche owner, I can say that it definitely translates into more opportunity with the opposite sex.  However, I was attached at the time; but that doesn't mean I didn't see the many overt signals thrown my way that I could have taken advantage of.  Contrasted with the scooter I now drive (by choice), you can bet there is a difference.

My 0.02$
"The man who speaks to you of sacrifice, speaks of slaves and masters. And intends to be the master." -- Ayn Rand<br /><br />


no2fembots has never been on a date... but has spread seed in many willing orifices over many years!

Many fine women have cohabitated, or married this 'bot and found fulfillment.

no2fembots is on a marriage and relationship strike due to political reasons, not due to bitchy-bag horror stories.  ALL of his women, friends and lovers and more, have been wonderful: think opposite of "Rantings of a Single Male" girls! This lowly  'bot has been blessed out of all proportion, experiencing lovely women who really and truly understand men - like the inimitable Queen of the Biscuit .  This holds true even for the last Mrs. Bot.

But how, you say?  How is this possible?

One.  Never needed dates due to being a musician in a band.  Women asked n2fb out, not the other way around.

Two.  Never ever EVER EVER put up with even a little bit o'shyte from the get go:  BAD BEHAVIOR WILL NOT BE TOLERATED! This includes the panapoly of stuff women do that is endlessly ranted about on SYG.

Three.  The woman was never the centre of n2fb's life.  Never.  She is responsible for her feelings and the 'bot does not need a female to meet required emotional needs.  Chose to be together, not need to be together.

Four. Never allow a woman to dictate clothes, hobbies, interest, friends, what one can and can not do, ETC!!!  Would no2fembots ever tell a woman-love that she can not go out with her friends?  Would not dream of it!  She is a free agent adult - and no2fembots isn't her Mum.

Moral of the story:  women are used to being the centre of attention, of being hungered for.  Stop. Don't hunger.  Don't idolize.  Ignore, even.  A woman can stand many things, but she can not stand to be ignored!  

Paradox: Ignore her to gain her attention.  Let her express interest in you!  You will find quality women.

BTW, no2fembots is medium to below average on the looks scale. This fact has never stood in the way fo getting love and companionship when needed, or just plain friction on the mucous membranes when required for health reasons.
"We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we give."  - Winston Churchill
"Get Angry...Get Loud... GET UP off your KNEES!"


Submit hit before edit... was NOT going to leave in first line.

"We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we give."  - Winston Churchill
"Get Angry...Get Loud... GET UP off your KNEES!"


Quote from: "realman"
I have a hard time believing anything on "fastseduction" would have a different approach

Well, maybe I can help with that.  From the last link given above (emphasis added):

Sometimes the question "If ordinary guys get laid why do I need all this information?" comes up in the forum.  I'm sure many visitors who stumble on to this site with no prior intention of looking for this kind of information might also ask this question.  The guys out there who find this site out of a legitimate search for such information don't tend to ask it because they already know the answer.  This page sets out as an answer to the question, with help from a few forum posts.

>Reading all this stuff makes
>my head spin.  I can't
>understand how anybody ever
>gets laid.  How do normal guys
>who get chicks get laid?

Formhandle writes:

Usually, they don't.

If they do, they generally get attached to that chick (one-itis), her being their only option, and when they get dumped they don't have a clue how to get another chick, and the cycle of "luck" begins with them again.  After a while, they get sick of how hard it is for them to find a new chick when the "relationship" ends, so they choose marriage and remove themselves from the "game" and add their genes to the gene pool, causing the cycle of beta males to continue populating the landscape.  Many times, their wife ends up cheating on them.

There are a few guys who do get laid regularly, by the chicks they want to get laid with, and do so without depending on luck.  Those guys are called "naturals" and this web site goes about dismantling all the things those naturals do so that we can emulate and understand their tactics.  The result of that is the creation of PUAs (Pick-up Artists).

And, beyond that, there are the upper top of men, maybe the top 0.5% who get by just through perfect looks, built-in social proof (fame), or some other aspect which gets them women without conscious effort and without luck.  We don't focus on that around here.

>can't I just do what they do,

Because, if you did, you might get a few "dates" here & there, pay for those dates, supplicate yourself, have the chick lose interest in you fast, and continue this cycle for months and months until getting "lucky" by either running into a chick who is highly interested in you out of chance or you accidentally do the right series of things to get her interested enough to sleep with you.   Of course, since all that would happen accidentally, you will gradually lose her interest because you won't know how to sustain it.  She'll dump you for another guy and you'll end up back in the same vicious cycle.

>instead of telling all these
>false stories and silly

Well, here's the thing.  A lot of people find this site and read through the Player Guide and skip around the guide and seem to only pick out the most canned stuff, yet not fully understand the core of the material, which is mostly about attitude, self-improvement, and practicing effective tactics.  Also, the forum seems to be skipped by those people, even though there are regular discussions about topics WAY more advanced and useful than partial sections of the Player Guide.   Many people skip over the FAQ as well, even though links for it are plastered all over the site, and it's emphasized as a VERY important read.

If even just 10% of the guys out there who had trouble getting chicks the way they want read this site, and made use of the materials, understood the attitudes, etc., not only would they significantly improve their lives and the lives of the chicks they interact with, they'd also cause a "shift" in many chicks on this side of the world to realize they must improve themselves (lose weight, get better attitudes, stop playing games) in order to have a better chance to get a quality male. Because most guys, once they know this stuff, raise the standard they are willing to accept from chicks, and disregard chicks that aren't up to par.  That means goodbye teases, bitches, fatties, psychos, and manipulators.  Bye bye.  Hello stable, secure, good-looking, nice chicks who aim to please REAL MEN in their lives.

The overall point is that, outside of arrangements like marriage, only 20% of the men lay 80% of the women.  You either want to be in the that 20% or not.  And, unless you're already a natural at it, you'll need to learn what it takes to get you there.  That's what this web site is for.

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BaldGuy writes:

To answer your question, so as not to come across so harsh as I may have, normal guys DON'T usually get laid.  At times they get lucky, or happen to be so good-looking that women pick them rather than the other way around.  But when there are PUAs in the vicinity, women leave with them and normal guys are left complaining that they never get laid.

EVERYONE gets laid sooner or later.

I know this sounds incredible, especially considering some of the dudes I know, but it's true. It's just that there might be like 5 years or so between each time. ;-)

As I have noted elsewhere, I know several guys who look like total alphas, women drool over them. But because they behave like full-time AFCs, even THEY have been known to have little or no sex for a year or so. Just imagine how much AFCs without good looks are getting... horrible. :-(

>After a while, they get sick of how hard
>it is for them to find a new chick when
>the "relationship" ends, so they choose

Lots of guys also become "misogynists" at this point, meaning that they start to hate women. They don't have a clue why women don't like them, but decide that it must be the womens' fault, and begin to hate them. I would imagine that rapists often belong to this category, but I haven't really studied the issue. What I do know is that it can be sensed when they talk about women, and it's not pretty.

>Many times, their wife ends up cheating
>on them.

Evolutionary psychologists agree that women are actually looking for two mates, not one; a provider, and a genetic resource. They will hook up with providers and then have steaming sex with alphas behind the betas' backs. The best deal is of course an alpha who is also a provider, but those things kinda cancel each other out because an alpha stops being an alpha when he supplicates.

Women actually do this quite often; they just don't get caught for it as often as men do because they don't brag about it. They also don't have a need to tell their partners because while men make an emotional investment in their woman, women reserve their emotional investment for their children. If you study the statistics, you will notice that while men frequently commit suicide when their long-term relationship ends, women almost never do. Anybody ever wonder why?

Another study showed that the truth is actually likely to never come out; they did paternity tests to thousands of couples and their children, and it was revealed that a staggering number of the children weren't actually genetically related to their father at all. I wish I still had that paper somewhere...

(See http://www.fathersforlife.org/advice.htm#1in3 for some idea.)

>Those guys are called "naturals" and this
>web site goes about dismantling all the
>things those naturals do so that we can
>emulate and understand their tactics.

I must testify that this seems to be correct; I happen to know someone who is as much a "natural" as they get. One night in a club, I told him about this website, and listed the main ASF techniques and ideas. He was very interested, said that he would take a look at the site and all. The real interesting part was when he was able to identify EVERY one those techniques and ideas in his own style; this guy had mastered these things through practice, without ever having heard of NLP!

>seem to only pick out the most canned
>stuff, yet not fully understand the core
>of the material, which is mostly about
>attitude, self-improvement, and practi-
>cing effective tactics.

Yeah, no way in hell that could ever work; the key issue is that you can't fake stuff, it will show. What you can do is change your own personality, and then reflect that outward. All these "techniques" we are talking about are not in fact techniques at all; rather, they are observations of how alphas behave, so that those who are learning them can better understand the goal which they are trying to achieve, within themselves. A PUA does not think to himself: "Now I will use technique X, and finish with Y". He just does what an alpha would do, because he has himself become one. Although this is a guess since I am not PUA yet, I would imagine that the truest sign of achieving the goal is that you no longer understand when you are using a "technique"; you have forgotten them.

And lets not forget that it is not only seduction (actually attraction) that we learn here; this is the stuff that defines one's success in almost all areas of life, because that is the role of the alpha: to succeed in everything he does. This knowledge is genetically encoded in all of us, so men and women alike will bow to an alpha. Scott Adams got it right when he noted in Dilbert that all the top places go to "people with good hair"; alphas rule the world.

littlbigd writes:

Baldguy is exactly right.

Think about it - EVERYONE gets laid sooner or later.  And for an AFC that is why we called it 'Getting Lucky' - because that is exactly what it was.

Go back to your AFC past and analyze all the times you got lucky - the irony of it all is that on most of those times - we were unknowingly (and by sheer luck) demonstrating Alpha PUA qualities.  That is what got us laid.

The difference now is that we are no longer unaware and it is no longer 'luck'.

beerbonghangover writes:

> Usually, they don't.

This is really true. I have many male acquaintances and basically know what they pull. They're from many different backgrounds and have different life circumstances. I'm not hanging out with only losers here. They're rich, poor, good looking, fugly, brilliant, stupid, etc..

One thing that causes a general misperception is that almost all of them exagerate their success to other guys. Like they'll tell other guys they laid 10 women last year when it was really only 2. Or 30 in their lifetime when it's more like 5. It's adolescent bragging for respect (social proof for other males) but most guys never grow out of it.

I'll look for some real stats for the discussion but I bet it's common for an AFC to go a year without getting laid.

scoob writes:

This is painful to admit but there were two separate periods of my life where I went at least TWO YEARS without getting "lucky"!!! And I am a good looking and reasonably intelligent guy. Yes, your theory is correct. There are TONS of guys out there who haven't been laid in at least a year even if it would seem the odds are in their favor. For those who are below average in looks, are introverted and beta-passive the numbers are probably staggering.

Anyone reading this who is one of those guys, put this material and especially the attitudes into practice and I can guarantee you will see positive results. Forget all the bullshit that's been fed to you by society and family and authority about being nice, or being a gentleman, or putting a woman on a pedestal. If you want to put her on a pedestal then treat her like she's a human being (one that has a sexual drive as high if not higher than yours) and not like a fragile china doll that is to be handled with extreme caution. Treat her like a woman, not like a lady.

BaldGuy makes a final comment:

Non Illegitimi Carborundum, and KOT!


'no2fembots has never been on a date..."

Stupid!  Stupid!

no2fembots has never ASKED a woman for a date...!   :roll:
"We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we give."  - Winston Churchill
"Get Angry...Get Loud... GET UP off your KNEES!"


Realman, not only did I agree with everything you had to say (to the point where I wondered if I was hearing a mental echo), but I actually feel quite inspired after reading it.  Thank you.

    I'm in exactly the same boat as you are.  I'm just not what women are looking for, because I refuse to sacrifice my integrity, my morals, my values, etc. for something fleeting or trivial.  I'd rather wait another thirty years to meet the woman of my dreams than get hooked up right now with a woman who doesn't respect me.  The trouble is, the media has made it a priority to portray men as emotionless beasts obsessed with physical manifestations of love rather than emotional and mental.  

    As a result, most women think that they need only satisfy us on a physical level to keep us.  This makes their job incredibly easy while, simultaneously making our job ten times harder, as we have to look around even more for the woman who wants to give us more than that, out of the kindness of her heart.


Fezzik advised:

Turn 30, have a real job, buy a house, bathe and exercise in moderation, and be free of : alcoholism, drug addiction, STDs, debt, and felony convictions, and you'll be surprised at just how attractive you've become.

Been there done that  :wink:

I've got a girlfriend at the moment, so I know that to be true. But I think it's a bit like some of the guys were saying in the 'Female Pension Crisis' thread. Suddenly women reach the age when they realise their looks won't last forever and they're worried about being left on the shelf. A straight laced guy with a good job and good 'husband' potential suddenly seems a better option than hanging on, waiting for a rock star or a billionaire industrialist to walk into their lives.

I guess I turned out to be a 'plan b'  :boohoo:

Dr. Kathleen Dixon, the Director of Women's Studies: "We forbid any course that says we restrict free speech!"

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