What's the deal with feminist myths?

[Galt]

Then why do you call yourself a 'feminist'? - particularly given that what you have described is not what feminism is, in practice, about.

Right.  That's the thought I had.  She gives the dictionary definition of feminism, but people interpret "equality" in many different ways.  For instance, equality of opportunity versus equality of outcome.

I don't understand the point of taking a hostile stance and nit-picking, but when it gets down to brass tacks saying you are pretty much in agreement.

Maybe it's just a personal, hostile attitude towards men.

[lkanneg]

By tough, I mean  physically, or disgusting. Anyways, its not a big deal, as we both know that if women went on strike society would not miss a beat. Not so if men chose to do so.
Stally

Oh really?    First thought that springs to mind...the vast majority of elementary school teachers, nurses, day care providers, stay at home parents and everybody else who cares for and educates infants and children, are women.

[Galt]

Oh really?    First thought that springs to mind...the vast majority of elementary school teachers, nurses, day care providers, stay at home parents and everybody else who cares for and educates infants and children, are women.

There seems to be a perpetual drift away from the original topic here.  I thought that the original idea was who built the infrastructure or prosperity or the like in the developed countries.

If you think that taking care of babies is part of that, watch National Geographic or the like.  You'll see a lot of baby care going on.  Or watch cats and dogs - who have no other prosperty other than what their owners give them.

[lkanneg]

Oh really?    First thought that springs to mind...the vast majority of elementary school teachers, nurses, day care providers, stay at home parents and everybody else who cares for and educates infants and children, are women.

There seems to be a perpetual drift away from the original topic here.  I thought that the original idea was who built the infrastructure or prosperity or the like in the developed countries.

If you think that taking care of babies is part of that, watch National Geographic or the like.  You'll see a lot of baby care going on.  Or watch cats and dogs - who have no other prosperty other than what their owners give them.

So if we let infants care for themselves and children acquire literacy and mathematical skills on their own, we'd continue to have the same infrastructure and prosperity?

[Galt]

So if we let infants care for themselves and children acquire literacy and mathematical skills on their own, we'd continue to have the same infrastructure and prosperity?

It's certainly a step removed.  Building the infrastructure ... uhh ... probably contributes more towards it than not building it, aside from the fact that quite a few men ARE teachers of young children, or at least used to be.  I would check the sanity of any man taking care of or teaching young children today, though, given that accusations of child sexual abuse are rampant.

I suppose your last, remaining argument is that women are needed to have children.

But why aren't women carrying away garbage and risking their lives in fishing boats or up on skyscrapers in any great numbers in this new, equal world?  Why do the wives of these men have exactly the same lifestyle while working in an air-conditioned office or ... not working at all?  While their hubby is up on a telephone pole in a thunderstorm trying to get service back up.

I thought you were for equality, so maybe you can explain that part of it.

It sounds like we agree on equality of opportunity, now how about "equality of responsibility"?

[lkanneg]

But why aren't women carrying away garbage and risking their lives in fishing boats or up on skyscrapers in any great numbers in this new, equal world?  

I thought you were for equality, so maybe you can explain that part of it.

It sounds like we agree on equality of opportunity, now how about "equality of responsibility"?

On a philosophical level, I fully support women and men equally choosing the jobs that best suit their ability and desire.  As you say, "equality of opportunity."  Now, why *aren't* women overwhelmingly in the skilled trades?  Conversely, why *aren't* men overwhelmingly in the menial/secretarial/elementary education/childcare professions?  The possibiities that seem obvious are four:

1.  Women refuse to work in the skilled trades.
2.  Men refuse to work in the menial/secretarial/elementary education/childcare professions.
3.  Women are being prevented from working in the skilled trades.
4.  Men are being prevented from working in the menial/secretarial/elementary ed/childcare professions.

Let's see...why didn't *I* choose to work in the traditionally female professions..?  I personally didn't choose them because they sounded like boring, low-paying drudgery to me.  I was aware that my personal safety would be far more uncertain and my heavy physical labor far greater if I chose, for instance, to be a soldier or work in large scale manufacturing, but I actually preferred that to being bored to death and poorly paid.  So I wonder:  do men have the same thought processes?  Or is it that they truly desire to work in menial/secretarial/elementary ed/childcare and are somehow being prevented from doing so?  Now, if that's the case, that needs to be stopped asap.  Do you know if that's the case?

[Galt]

So I wonder:  do men have the same thought processes?  Or is it that they truly desire to work in menial/secretarial/elementary ed/childcare and are somehow being prevented from doing so?  Now, if that's the case, that needs to be stopped asap.  Do you know if that's the case?

I certainly can't speak for all men, but I know that working with children or the like would bore me to tears.  Probably a lot of men feel that way.

Having a girlfriend or wife who likes working in those areas would also bore me to tears, though (as would a housewife, as I've made clear here ad nauseum), but I suspect that a lot of men DON'T think that way.

Who knows - something to think about.

[Mr Benn]

Notice how she implies that menial jobs are primarily performed by women.

[Galt]

Notice how she implies that menial jobs are primarily performed by women.

That kind of got snuck in there among elementary school teachers and people working with children.

Actually, hanging on a garbage truck, jumping off, throwing trash in the back, jumping back on the side (repeat 500 times) is a very menial, dirty job, but men ONLY do it because they can get more money doing it than sitting in an air-conditioned office as a receptionist and they feel a need to "provide for their family" (which may only be a wife).  A lot of men have jobs like that - because they HAVE TO, not because they want to.

Then we get back to the "responsibility" part.

[lkanneg]

Now, that *is* interesting...what are the "menial" jobs, and how are they broken down by gender..?  I admit, I was thinking "housecleaning/office cleaning," which is like childcare sort of an extension outside the home of traditional "women's work" and which I do believe is primarily done by women.  However, garbage collecting is certainly menial work and I can't actually recall ever *seeing* a female garbage collector.  (According to my ex-husband, who is a cop, most garbage collectors are ex-convicts as this is one of the few jobs they have relatively little trouble obtaining with a record, but I don't know if this is a fact or not.)

I can't find anything on the Internet that even *lists* what are generally considered menial jobs, nevermind breaking down such a list by gender...anybody else know where to look?

[Raymond Cuttill]

As a matter of fact, I wonder about whose career is so important.  What are they working for?  My career was never for it's own sake. I was expecting to pay for a family (which didn't work out).  Is their life goal to have written on their tombstone "I was the best PA in PA"?

[Galt]

I can't find anything on the Internet that even *lists* what are generally considered menial jobs, nevermind breaking down such a list by gender...anybody else know where to look?

It's sometimes hard to define "menial" in some areas, but I know a list was posted here of the top ten jobs with the highest death rates.  They were all male-oriented jobs, as I remember.

Being a fisherman was No. 1 or 2 on the list, which surprised me.

[TheManOnTheStreet]

"Being a fisherman was No. 1 or 2 on the list, which surprised me."

Actually Galt, it would be a crabsman.  Specifically in the Alaskan region.  Listed as the #1 most deadliest job.  Why do MEN do it?  Because they make anywhere from 20-50K in a 3 month "season".....

I have a cousin that does it.  Sean has been doing it for some 8 years now.  last time I spoke with him, he said that he was going to stop soon because statistically he has exceeded (cheated) his chance of death or dismemberment which is at about 3 years.

Kinda scary huh?

Al

[lkanneg]

Being a fisherman was No. 1 or 2 on the list, which surprised me.

I'm not surprised...my current husband is a (recreational) sailor with a passion for all things nautical, so we have lots of books lying around about sailing and sailors--I actually just finished "Endurance" by F.A. Worsley, which is a really fascinating book--and because of the sheer size of the ocean and the uncontrollability of the weather, even modern technology can only do so much to provide a safety net.

[Mr. Bad]

Now, that *is* interesting...what are the "menial" jobs, and how are they broken down by gender..?  I admit, I was thinking "housecleaning/office cleaning," which is like childcare sort of an extension outside the home of traditional "women's work" and which I do believe is primarily done by women.  However, garbage collecting is certainly menial work and I can't actually recall ever *seeing* a female garbage collector.

I've been thinking about this issue of menial "pink collar" jobs that women tend to do vs. the "blue collar" jobs that men tend to do, and to me, the issue of career track is germane.  I think that although the pink collar jobs start out as menial, there are a lot more career advancement opportunities for those who stay with them; for blue collar jobs, they are much more "dead end."  

For example, a secretary working in the Public Works office overseeing the garbage collection system has the opportunity to advance up the ranks, getting better and more interesting jobs along the way, and eventually becoming some senior adminstrator (this doesn't even take into account affirmative action and the New Girl's Network present in most public sector industries).  On the other hand, the man on the garbage truck has little chance of advancement to a more interesting job or career track; after all, have any of you heard of "Senior VP for Garbage Collectors" or the like?

Thus, to me, "blue collar" jobs are much crappier than "pink collar" jobs, no matter how hard the feminazis try to spin it.