What's the deal with feminist myths?

Started by Galt, Aug 18, 2005, 08:02 AM

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lkanneg

Quote from: "IMHO"
Quote
Wow, I can't even begin to imagine how you'd factually back up such an assertion.


I came to this conclusion through experience and observation.  When including passive-aggression, I believe my experiences are not atypical of other people's.


I dunno...personal experience and observation aren't a very good tool when it comes to quantifying entire genders or other subsections of humanity, imo.  For instance, if I did that, I would conclude that men are overwhelmingly more physically and sexually abusive towards their SO and children than women are, since that has been my experience and observation.  But I'm not comfortable with that conclusion because my experience and observation aren't statistically significant.
quot;Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

"Something which we think is impossible now is not impossible in another decade."
-- Constance Baker Motley

"Don't compromise yourself. You are all you've got."
--Janis Joplin

Galt

Quote from: "IMHO"
I honestly believe women in general have a greater capacity to cruelty and aggression than men do.


What doesn't help the situation any is the fact that boys and young men who dance out of line are going to eventually be smacked back into place by the police, fathers, other men or society in general.  Or they eventually wind up in prison.

Young women are given more leeway - in part because unless she REALLY gets out of line, no one dares step in and restrain her - so some of them almost feel they have the right to slap men, treat people like crap, and pretty much give in to whatever their little ego wants.  Combine that with the fact that the panting young man chasing after her will keep coming back for the golden vagina no matter how poorly she treats him - and you have a recipe for creating a monster.

bluegrass

Galt-

I know you like to attribute it to sex, but frankly I think it's deeper than that.  I'm beginning to think that the sexual part is really just an expression of the emotional part -- that is, the constant quest for sex is really more of a constant quest for emotional connection and that an awful lot of men seem to generalize their emotional dependence on their mothers with the women in their lives.

They're not on a constant quest for "pussy" as much as they're on a constant quest for their mothers' approval.  This is the basis of everything from chivalry to some mens' seeming sexual addiction.
"To such females, womanhood is more sacrosanct by a thousand times than the Virgin Mary to popes--and motherhood, that degree raised to astronomic power. They have eaten the legend about themselves and believe it; they live it; they require fealty of us all." -- Philip Wylie, Generation of Vipers

Galt

Quote from: "bluegrass"
Galt-

I know you like to attribute it to sex, but frankly I think it's deeper than that.  I'm beginning to think that the sexual part is really just an expression of the emotional part -- that is, the constant quest for sex is really more of a constant quest for emotional connection and that an awful lot of men seem to generalize their emotional dependence on their mothers with the women in their lives.

They're not on a constant quest for "pussy" as much as they're on a constant quest for their mothers' approval.  This is the basis of everything from chivalry to some mens' seeming sexual addiction.


I agree, and that's another part of it.  Men are conditioned to go to great lengths to avoid hearing "you're not a real man" and therefore develop chivalry as a reflex.

I also have it in me from my childhood conditioning.  At least I'm getting a little bit better: Getting onto an airplane once, Cute Young Thing(TM) was still on a cell phone, and she simply pointed to her luggage, pointed to the rack where it was supposed to go, and then turned her back and continued her conversation.  I just ignored her.

Maybe it's not even all childhood conditioning.  Maybe there's something genetic there, but I know that men will really take burdens on themselves to help women - who may not even be thankful.  It's just expected.

But part of it is still the quest for the possibility of pink taco.  I saw a hidden camera-type show in which a good looking woman stopped random men and told them that she dropped her ring in the icky garbage can by mistake.  Could he please be a real man (bats eyes) and put his own hand in the garbage and fish it out for her?  Then they dressed up the same woman as a hag with makeup, false teeth and pillows under her clothes designed to make her look chubby.  Far fewer men bit - but some still did, and those are the ones in which chivalry played a dominant role.

I'd like to see how many people - men or women - would help a man with the same request.  Probably 0 women and 0 men.  They would say, "get it out yourself, you wimp."

SIAM

Quote
I dunno...personal experience and observation aren't a very good tool when it comes to quantifying entire genders or other subsections of humanity, imo.


I think they are, especially when the alternatives are statistics and factoids. You can create any "factoid" you like, and twist statistics to "confirm" pre-defined assumptions.   An example: personally I'll make judgements on who to trust/who not to trust based on my past experiences and intuition, not simply by reading dry academic studies on human behaviour (which in any case are subject to bias) - your intuition is going to be far more accurate than using studies and demographics and making assumptions on an individual from such dry analysis. A big part of survival is to learn from, and adapt to your environment.  You don't do that through theory alone.  

If I looked at my past experiences, and then if I was to accept conventional wisdom on domestic violence (based on many "facts"), I would have to suffer the symptoms of cognitive disonance :D

Men's Rights Activist

Sometimes these things just turn into an article - Sorry about the length.

Personally, I think the myth of male privilege is the biggest crock to have ever evolved out of the "devoid of intelligence" swamps of stupidity and radical/gender feminism.
http://www.menstuff.org/pov/povs/malepriv.html

Gee, the myth of male privilege, or something like it, would sure make a great title for a book,
http://tinyurl.com/cwrjg  That book should be required reading in every Women's Studies 101 course in the world.

My Dearly departed Father only had a 7th grade education, because he had to quit school to go work in the fields and help the family make a living.  Historically, families where considered more privileged if they had more male children to work the fields so how is breaking your back for a living male privilege?
http://www.cafepress.com/mensbiz.10490197
Privileged Patriarchs or Beasts of Burden

Ironically, it was my mother, who had the 8th grade education, who was the most bitter about being denied a chance to go on to high school, and one of her oft repeated phrases was, "Those books will make a damned fool out of you."  Yes, I guess my own dear Mom, suffered from that common female malady of today; having a perception of unjustly being denied privileges, then being confused and conflicted about the whole thing.  If the truth be told, I have no recollection of my Dad having ever expressed any disatisfaction or bitterness with his lot in life.  He just accepted it and made the best of it like the truly noble guy he was.

Men have historically been sent off to war with no choice in the matter.  Even in today's volunteer army America still says that only men can serve in direct front line combat roles on the ground.  So how is getting gassed or blown up by artillery (as some of my relatives have been) male privilege?
http://www.cafepress.com/mensbiz.9157428
Privileged Patriarch or Disposable Patriot

Men are 94% of industrial deaths and injuries so are men who are forced to take the death jobs to support their families, Privileged Partriarchs, or are they, historically, really just industrial guinea pigs?  Here's an old book that gives a glimpse of the historical toll taken on men's lives to build the industry and infrastructure of this great nation.
http://tinyurl.com/cvmw9
Death on the Job

How do male feminists and women's studies instructors explain male privilege to black men who die (on average) 14 years sooner than privileged, pampered white women who are the driving force of the bigoted, anti-male radical/gender feminist movement?

A good male friend of mine, who happens to be black, nailed it for me one day when he matter of factly stated, "Death is the Ultimate Indicator of Oppression."
http://www.cafepress.com/mensbiz.9954967
Men are 76% of homicides and 75% of suicides, but some male feminists have the nerve to say men are privileged to not have to be in fear of violence like women, #8 on the Male Privilege checklist, "I am not taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces."
http://colours.mahost.org/org/maleprivilege.html  I heard a self-avowed male feminist say this in a women's studies program at UCLA.
What a stupid thing to say, that men are privileged because they are taught to not have to fear walking alone after dark in average public places, This statement implies that women are fearful and thereby oppressed to have do that.  It is men who are oppressed by not being taught that they are the ones who are clearly in the most danger .  Men are not fearful in those situations, but the homicide and assualt rates by gender indicate they clearly should be.  That is not a privilege, it is an oppression born out of the courageous protector (hero) mentality that men are taught .

Furthemore, of the ten leading causes of death by disease, men lead in all categories in nearly all age ranges, yet in L.A. County there is an Office of Women's Health, but not an Office of Men's Health.   There are 31 women's commissions in CA, but none for men.  CA men are routinely denied access to domestic violence shelters, because almost exclusively, they're for women only.  I could go on and on citing examples of the gender feminist bigotry against men in CA, but you get the idea, and that pattern is duplicated throughout the rest of the U.S.  and the rest of the western world and beyond.

The myth of male privilege is one of the most offensive, insulting and just plain stupid propaganda lies to have ever come out of the stupid mouths of radical/gender feminists.  Men and women have both, historically experienced oppression and privilege in many ways and in differing degrees in different areas throughout history.  Individually, men and women have both experienced privilege and oppression, and no one gender has an overwhelming amount of overall privilege or oppression .  

To stereotype all "men" or all "women" together as women's studies routinely does (using half truths, lies and irresponsible research), is not as much a sign of the female privilege of modern women as it is a sign of the intellectual bankruptcy, gross stupidity, and outright bigotry of the radical/gender feminist mentality comprising that hate movement.  To further stereotype men as a group who have overwhelmingly been privileged, and women as a group who have overwhelmingly been oppressed is not just ridiculous, bigoted, it is flat out asinine, and clinically bordering on a form of mental illness.
Life, Liberty, & Pursuit of Happiness are fundamental rights for all (including males), & not contingent on gender feminist approval or denial. Consider my "Independence" from all tyrannical gender feminist ideology "Declared" - Here & Now!

CaptDMO

Quote from: "lkanneg"
Quote from: "neonsamurai"
Ikanneg said in relation to friends of hers who'd been raped
Quote
Several...hmm, let me think. Counting...four, that I've known of.


Four of your friends have been raped? That's terrible. Why didn't they report what happened to them to the police?


Let's see...No. 1 might have called the police of her own accord, but before she had managed to calm down enough to have that suggested to her, somebody else had already called them.  No. 2 was raped by her boyfriend; she was too afraid of what her very racist, violent father would do to her if he found out during the course of a police investigation and trial that she had been dating a black guy to try to have him prosecuted for it.  No. 3 was raped by a, well she thought, a friend; they were both part of a close circle of friends and she had gone willingly alone to his place that time as she had done many times in the past.  She couldn't stand the idea of their entire circle of friends *knowing,* which they would have; she couldn't stand the idea of rejection from any of those friends; she thought the police/judge/jury would blame her for being alone with the guy on purpose and she would be humiliated and traumatized for nothing; she was terrified that he would come after her and do it again in revenge if she tried to have him arrested.  No. 4 was raped by her boyfriend and wasn't 100% sure at the time that he had known for sure that she didn't want to have sex-- and she didn't report him from a combination of that feeling of uncertainty and because she thought that nobody would believe she hadn't wanted to have sex because she had let him kiss her and touch her intimately (she was a virgin).  (She did find out much later that he had definitely known she hadn't wanted to have sex.)


What atrocious anecdotage. I can't help but think of all the times I've heard these situations revealed. Sadly these excruciating accounts ever so rarely seem to get to court to have the evidence weighed and entered so that true justice may prevail. I only ever hear them described third hand, and yet, by the number of times I am exposed to these very similar statements you relay,  one would think that women everywhere would just be willing to rise above the potentially harsh examination lights that courts increasingly shine on such cases. How could such complex details that truly tug at the heartstrings possibly be ignored, especially considering the number of  times they reappear.  Sometimes I think I must be very fortunate to seem to avoided this type of outrage, knowing full well the frequency with which these accounts are related outside my personal sphere of influence.
It saddens me that I have to hear these painfully similar recounts again and again, constrained only by the compassionate insight of the victims.

Mr. Bad

Quote from: "lkanneg"
Quote from: "IMHO"
I honestly believe women in general have a greater capacity to cruelty and aggression than men do.


Wow, I can't even begin to imagine how you'd factually back up such an assertion.


Hi Ikanneg, welcome.  I've been enjoying your posts, and admire your respect for logic and reason, so I feel that I need to nitpick and point something out to you:  A belief is not a declaration of fact, and therefore, does not require objective proof to support it.  For example, most religions are based on belief because objective proof for things like immaculate conception, ascension to heaven, the existence of God him/herself, etc., is not available.    Therefore IMO IMHO need not offer any facts to back up his beliefs; they are what they are.  Now, if IMHO had said "Women in general have a greater capacity to cruelty and aggression than men do" I would side with you and ask him/her for citations to peer-reviewed research substantiating this assertion.

While I think that our beliefs are more defensible when we provide legitimate evidence for them, IMO we're all still entitled to hold our beliefs without the need to provide said evidence - just as long as we make it clear that we're not claiming fact.
"Men in teams... got the human species from caves to palaces. When we watch men's teams at work, we pay homage to 10,000 years of male achievements; a record of vision, ingenuity and Herculean labor that feminism has been too mean-spirited to acknowledge."  Camille Paglia

CaptDMO

Quote from: "IMHO"
Quote
Wow, I can't even begin to imagine how you'd factually back up such an assertion.


I came to this conclusion through experience and observation.  When including passive-aggression, I believe my experiences are not atypical of other people's.


I'd have to somewhat disagree. In my personal experience and observation, and In My Humble Opinion-
I've  found that passive-agressive behavior from the offensive folk I have known was only an issue when in the public eye, or when  accountability could become an issue. Otherwise, if there was no evident threat of factual accountability, the initiation of aggression could be quite overt, generally beginning with postures of indignation over perceived slights in attention.
I have read, been told first hand, and  clearly observed, so many anecdotal cases that I have to conclude the majority of  others in my sphere of influence concur.
Fortunately, this hasn't been clouded by innumerable hypothetical explainations beyond what reasonable benifit of doubt affords to
amorphous phenomina.

realman

"They're not on a constant quest for "pussy" as much as they're on a constant quest for their mothers' approval. "

I don't know, in some cases this probably true but it is extremely Freudian. IMHO Freudian ideology is generally correct in some cases but doesn't really apply to scoiety as a whole.

I can say for my self recalling my teens and early 20s- no, it had EVERYTHING to do with "pussy".

I would say it's got more to do with 1.)intrinsic desire for sex, compunded in one's teens and 20s by the relative scarcity of it 2.) men's desire to be attractive to women to satisfy their own egos, 3.) men's desire to be attractive to women to get sex, have the close companionship a heterosexual male in western socety can  only have with a female, be seen as "succesful" in mating and dating, be able to have a family one day, etc. and 4.) our boys and young men are still drilled on a daily basis to cater to girls/women and that's a hard habit to break when from day what that is all he's been taught.

In my experience I don't think in most cases it has that much to do with men looking for mom's approval, looking for a "surrogate mom", or anything like that. It has to do with what they've been taught since birth, their sexual needs/desires, the internal desire to be attractive and usccessful, and  the desire to have closeness/companionship with another human being.

To most guys, kissing women's asses = it's what men do, it's the right thing, it makes them attractive desirable to women, they'll do what it takes to increase the chances of sex, etc. I don't think for most men it goes much deeper than this, but of course for some it will, just as some women seek men to be their "daddy figure" but I don't think this is *generally* the case.

Galt

I think that if all of a sudden a chemical was put into the water supply that eliminates men's sexual desire for women, then feminists would be a sorry lot.  No one would really care anymore, above and beyond treating people in the right way.

You'd no longer have "feminists" who operate off the old traditions of a man supporting them - while they simultaneously think out ever more subtle reasons why men are oppressing them.  Taxpayer funding for "women's studies" and grants for these dolts would dry up in a heartbeat.

I've almost come to an understanding with the Bisquit Queen about a reasonable woman who comes to an agreement in life with a reasonable man - but I can't even fathom some guy who supports a woman who is constantly spouting feminist beliefs.  She is using the ancient notions of a man supporting her - while simultaneously using the modern notions that "everything is equal".  What's sad is that men still exist who don't even understand that.  "Everything has to be equal", but of course men should support women financially, because women are just women.  I'm just surprised that these user women are able to keep the smirk off their face while they use these types of men.

Galt

And another thing (while I'm ranting ... LOL):

Feminists seem to be experts at playing the "gravity game".  That means denying one thing, or claiming no knowledge of it, while pushing down something else.  Then you push down the first thing.  Everything starts falling down, because nothing means nothing anymore.  Except all of the feminist myths, which are defended until the cows come home.

I slowly ... slowly ... find these people sickening.  They have a political agenda consisting of "ME, ME, ME" and a lot of men go along with it.  They are real men, because they chauvanistically defend women.  And the feminists know full well what they are doing, but they don't have the morals that the male-supporters have (in a twisted way).  There are no morals in hard-core feminism.  If men are stupid enough to give us what we want, for whatever reason, we deserve it.  We were oppressed for 10,000 years.

lkanneg

Quote from: "Galt"
[I saw a hidden camera-type show in which a good looking woman stopped random men and told them that she dropped her ring in the icky garbage can by mistake.  Could he please be a real man (bats eyes) and put his own hand in the garbage and fish it out for her?  Then they dressed up the same woman as a hag with makeup, false teeth and pillows under her clothes designed to make her look chubby.  Far fewer men bit - but some still did, and those are the ones in which chivalry played a dominant role.

I'd like to see how many people - men or women - would help a man with the same request.  Probably 0 women and 0 men.  They would say, "get it out yourself, you wimp."


I would totally help somebody I thought looked like he or she *needed* it--you know, child, parent with young child(ren), disabled person, senior citizen, etc.  For an able-bodied adult, regardless of gender?  I'd probably be a little freaked out that he or she was asking at *all* and back away with a placating smile on my face, lol.
quot;Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

"Something which we think is impossible now is not impossible in another decade."
-- Constance Baker Motley

"Don't compromise yourself. You are all you've got."
--Janis Joplin

lkanneg

Quote from: "Galt"
I think that if all of a sudden a chemical was put into the water supply that eliminates men's sexual desire for women, then feminists would be a sorry lot.  No one would really care anymore, above and beyond treating people in the right way..


That might be more true than you realize, in a way you're not anticipating here.  :)

I
Quote from: "Galt"
've almost come to an understanding with the Bisquit Queen about a reasonable woman who comes to an agreement in life with a reasonable man - but I can't even fathom some guy who supports a woman who is constantly spouting feminist beliefs.  She is using the ancient notions of a man supporting her - while simultaneously using the modern notions that "everything is equal".  What's sad is that men still exist who don't even understand that.  "Everything has to be equal", but of course men should support women financially, because women are just women.  I'm just surprised that these user women are able to keep the smirk off their face while they use these types of men.


I'm surprised at this line of reasoning, which seems to say, If a wife stays home and raises the children instead of working for pay, then she doesn't deserve equality with her husband.  Am I understanding you correctly?  If so, would that also apply in reverse, with a husband who stays at home and raises the children while his wife supports them, he wouldn't deserve equality with his wife?
quot;Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

"Something which we think is impossible now is not impossible in another decade."
-- Constance Baker Motley

"Don't compromise yourself. You are all you've got."
--Janis Joplin

lkanneg

Quote from: "Mr. Bad"
Hi Ikanneg, welcome.  I've been enjoying your posts, and admire your respect for logic and reason, so I feel that I need to nitpick and point something out to you:  A belief is not a declaration of fact, and therefore, does not require objective proof to support it.  For example, most religions are based on belief because objective proof for things like immaculate conception, ascension to heaven, the existence of God him/herself, etc., is not available.    Therefore IMO IMHO need not offer any facts to back up his beliefs; they are what they are.  Now, if IMHO had said "Women in general have a greater capacity to cruelty and aggression than men do" I would side with you and ask him/her for citations to peer-reviewed research substantiating this assertion.

While I think that our beliefs are more defensible when we provide legitimate evidence for them, IMO we're all still entitled to hold our beliefs without the need to provide said evidence - just as long as we make it clear that we're not claiming fact.


Very legitimate point, and very true--I get tunnel vision because I generally try my darndest to never hold beliefs that I cannot back up with some sort of objective fact--probably not a shocker that I'm also agnostic, lol.  Thanks for the reminder!  :)
quot;Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

"Something which we think is impossible now is not impossible in another decade."
-- Constance Baker Motley

"Don't compromise yourself. You are all you've got."
--Janis Joplin

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