Chivalry and gender equality, in *my* home..?

Started by lkanneg, Sep 01, 2005, 07:10 AM

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lkanneg

I am looking for some advice, and I'm thinking you all can provide me with perspectives I'm not going to get anywhere else...if anyone wants to, of course!

My husband and I were hanging out at our favorite wine bar after work and talking Monday night (my ex has the kids every other Monday night) and my husband, my kids' stepfather, mentioned that he'd like to talk to the kids Wednesday night after dinner about a few things (my husband has Boys' Night Out every Tuesday and Thursday nights, so Wed. was the next night he'd be with us all for dinner).  I said sure, like what?  He said he'd like to talk about taking more responsibility for household chores...such as, if they see the kitchen trash can is full, they take the trash out to the garage and put in a new trash bag instead of just piling the trash on top...and about trying harder to conserve electricity in the house...such as making sure all the lights are off when leaving a room...etc. etc.  Sounded fine to me, and I said so.  Then he said, he also wanted to discuss something else with them:

Me:  What's that?
Him:  How to treat women.
Me:  (pause) What do you mean..?
Him:  They're obviously not learning this from their father...they need to learn to open doors for women, to carry their bags, and so forth.
Me:  (silence)
Him:  They need to learn to behave chivalrously.
Me:  Uh...I haven't taught them that.
Him:  Well, you shouldn't have to.  Your ex should.  
Me:  I don't think my ex has ever been into chivalry.
Him:  Well, I think the boys need to learn that.
Me:  Um.  You know, first, before I say anything else, I want to say how much I appreciate you taking the time to think about my boys, and wanting to provide them with things you consider to be positive male attributes...I really, really appreciate that, boys can't have too many positive male role models and I think it's really great that they not only have my ex but also you, and it really means a lot to me that you've obviously been putting a lot of thought into this--
Him:  Okay...
Me:  ...but I can't advocate teaching them to treat women any differently than they treat men.
Him:  It's chivalry.  
Me:  I understand that, but...I've really, really made it a point to *NOT* teach them to treat girls any better, OR worse, than they treat other boys...naturally I advocate treating others with courtesy and consideration at all times, and for instance if they see somebody struggling with a huge heavy box trying to get through a door they should run up and open the door for that person--
Him:  It'll be really important to them when they're older to get girls, and teaching them to behave chivalrously now will really help them out with that.
Me:  But I can't advocate treating girls better than boys just because their girls.
Him:  You don't have to.  I'll do it.
Me:  But I can't advocate YOU doing it either.
Him: (starts to look a little mad)
Me:  I'll tell you what...how about you tell them your opinion and then I'll tell them mine..?
Him:  That will completely undermine my opinion then.
Me:  Look, I definitely don't want to try to tell you what to do...DEFINITELY not telling you what you can and can't do...you must do what you feel is right...I just am so very, very uncomfortable with telling them to treat girls differently from boys.  I've been in nontraditional gender areas my whole life and I've done this in part by never, never expecting nor even allowing if possible, different treatment of me because I'm female.  Do you understand..?
Him:  Not really.  This is *chivalry,* not whether or not girls can be soldiers or engineers.

I gave up, and he had the talk with them Wednesday night.  He's going to be out with his buddies tonight, so it'll just be me and my boys at home tonight...what should I do?  Should I just let it go?  Should I say anything to them about what he said Wednesday night?  Other options (are there any)?  If anyone wants to throw out his or her two cents, it'd be very appreciated.
quot;Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

"Something which we think is impossible now is not impossible in another decade."
-- Constance Baker Motley

"Don't compromise yourself. You are all you've got."
--Janis Joplin

The Gonzman

I see.  The old "I'm really interested in what you have to say" ploy, to be followed by the presentation of the "no-win" false dilemma scenario, to be followed by posting and twisting in feminist circles.

I'd pass, guys.  It's troll bait.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the Shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am the MEANEST son-of-a-bitch in the valley.

TheManOnTheStreet

My opinion.....

That is a tough call.  On one hand, he is NOT their biological parent and that does imply that his level of teachings is limited.  But on the otherhand, he is ONE of their male influences, and as their Stepfather, his input should be taken seriously to a point as well.

Now, I personally think that the talking to them when he isn't around isn't a good idea.  It will, IMO, undermine his statements and possible confuse the boys.  But I also think that he is, in some small way, undermining yours.  He seems to not understand your point of view.  That being that you treat everyone, male or female, black or white, with the same respect and courtesy you would want; If I understand you correctly.

Personally, I think your view (if in fact I got what you are saying) is the correct way.  No special treatment.  Open the door for the PERSON, not the gender.

I do commend you for not taking the banshee (I am sure you know what I mean) or the "you are not their father and are not allowed... blah blah...." route though.

so what to do.  Maybe kinda reinforce what your husband is saying, but just add a little tidbit about it really shouldn't matter if it is a woman or a man... just an in passing comment so to speak.  That way you are not saying that he is wrong, nor are you compromising your beliefs.

Or maybe go a little further and say something sort of like "Things have changed over the years... when your father (and step) and I were your age, it was common practice to blah blah....  But today, it is more common to do blah blah for anyone, male or female.....  That's not to say your stepfather is wrong though....."

I would seriously consider leaving the word chivalry out of the conversation completely.  I would also make sure that your ideologies (read feminist) that you project here sometimes do not show in your conversation.  Just keep it light hearted and on track.  Treat people the same no matter the gender.  It's all about respect.

Shoot, am I making any sense here??

Al
The Man On The Street is on the street for a reason.......
_________________________________
It's not illegal to be male.....yet.

TheManOnTheStreet

Damn Gonz.. I really thought she was looking for an honest answer.....

Color me a dope......

Al
The Man On The Street is on the street for a reason.......
_________________________________
It's not illegal to be male.....yet.

bluegrass

Yeah I'll bite anyway.

First and foremost is what I see is what's normally called a hidden agenda.

Cleaning up the house and stuff -- sure he's got a direct interest in seeing they do their share.  It effects him.

So what's his interest in whether or not your boys open doors and act chivalrous?  He has no direct interest in that and the off handed comment "They're obviously not learning it from their father" to me indicates that he's more interested in gaining authority he doesn't need rather than making sure there's not some poor hypothetical woman of the future who's forced to carry her own grocery bag.

Agreement is not common between divorced parents.  If you and your ex agree on a values based principle that you wish to impart on your boys I'd say it's highly important to foster that agreement, take it as an opportunity to keep things going well and assert to your husband that he should weigh priorities and perhaps "choose his battles."
"To such females, womanhood is more sacrosanct by a thousand times than the Virgin Mary to popes--and motherhood, that degree raised to astronomic power. They have eaten the legend about themselves and believe it; they live it; they require fealty of us all." -- Philip Wylie, Generation of Vipers

bluegrass

And if he's already talked to them about this, follow up and just say,

"I just wanted to let you know that I disagree with your stepfather on the issue of chivalry."
"To such females, womanhood is more sacrosanct by a thousand times than the Virgin Mary to popes--and motherhood, that degree raised to astronomic power. They have eaten the legend about themselves and believe it; they live it; they require fealty of us all." -- Philip Wylie, Generation of Vipers

lkanneg

Quote from: "AlMartin"
My opinion.....

That is a tough call.  On one hand, he is NOT their biological parent and that does imply that his level of teachings is limited.  But on the otherhand, he is ONE of their male influences, and as their Stepfather, his input should be taken seriously to a point as well.


I very much agree--I really appreciate him taking an active role with them and I don't want to do ANYTHING to discourage that.

Quote from: "AlMartin"
Now, I personally think that the talking to them when he isn't around isn't a good idea.  It will, IMO, undermine his statements and possible confuse the boys.  .


I agree with that too...

Quote from: "AlMartin"
He seems to not understand your point of view.  That being that you treat everyone, male or female, black or white, with the same respect and courtesy you would want; If I understand you correctly..


That's it...

Quote from: "AlMartin"
so what to do.  Maybe kinda reinforce what your husband is saying, but just add a little tidbit about it really shouldn't matter if it is a woman or a man... just an in passing comment so to speak.  That way you are not saying that he is wrong, nor are you compromising your beliefs..I would seriously consider leaving the word chivalry out of the conversation completely.  I would also make sure that your ideologies (read feminist) that you project here sometimes do not show in your conversation.  Just keep it light hearted and on track.  


Good advice...I just need to manage to do it in such a way as to not confuse the heck out of them, LOL.
quot;Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

"Something which we think is impossible now is not impossible in another decade."
-- Constance Baker Motley

"Don't compromise yourself. You are all you've got."
--Janis Joplin

Sir Jessy of Anti

Just make sure they understand that they do not have to take abuse from a girl simply because they are being trained to treat them better.  If a girl hits them, they should know they have every right to defend themselves.
"The man who speaks to you of sacrifice, speaks of slaves and masters. And intends to be the master." -- Ayn Rand<br /><br />

Mr Benn

When your young sons start getting screwed around by 21st Century young slutty predatory females, then you might wake up a bit.
ww.CoolTools4Men.com

TestSubject

Well lkanneg, I like your stance.

All I can really add to the discussion is my personal experience, though.  All attempts to teach me chivalry when I was younger resulted in me resenting, not respecting, girls.  Any attempts to explain to me why I should do for girls while girls don't do jack shit in return for me made the resentment even worse, especially suggestions that I should do these things to "get a girl," as if women are some rite of passage in life for men.

So I guess I'm saying your husband might be playing with fire.

They should be taught to open doors and carry things for people, not just women so they can snag a date.  Actually, the more I think about it, the more the reason you said your husband gave for teaching them chivalry sounds really selfish.

You're mannerly to people because they're people, not because you'll want to get your thing wet later in life.   :?  I hope he has a better reason than that.

TestSubject

Quote from: "bluegrass"
So what's his interest in whether or not your boys open doors and act chivalrous?


Pride.  "My boys know how to treat a lady!" (read: whipped)  Manginas are like sluts with STDs, they compulsively spread the disease.

lkanneg

Quote from: "TestSubject"
All I can really add to the discussion is my personal experience, though.  All attempts to teach me chivalry when I was younger resulted in me resenting, not respecting, girls.


See, I would think so too.  

Quote from: "TestSubject"
They should be taught to open doors and carry things for people, not just women so they can snag a date.  Actually, the more I think about it, the more the reason you said your husband gave for teaching them chivalry sounds really selfish.

You're mannerly to people because they're people, not because you'll want to get your thing wet later in life.   :?  I hope he has a better reason than that.


I agree with the manners part...I'm thinking my husband probably *does* have other reasons for promoting chivalry other than just "it's a good way to get girls," but I think he was trying to come up with a reason that the boys would appreciate more than a purely abstract philosophical point.  You know, though, I don't *know* if that's the case...I'm kind of leery about asking him exactly why he *is* promoting chivalry beyond the reasons he has already given me.
quot;Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

"Something which we think is impossible now is not impossible in another decade."
-- Constance Baker Motley

"Don't compromise yourself. You are all you've got."
--Janis Joplin

lkanneg

Quote from: "bluegrass"
So what's his interest in whether or not your boys open doors and act chivalrous?  He has no direct interest in that and the off handed comment "They're obviously not learning it from their father" to me indicates that he's more interested in gaining authority he doesn't need rather than making sure there's not some poor hypothetical woman of the future who's forced to carry her own grocery bag.

Agreement is not common between divorced parents.  If you and your ex agree on a values based principle that you wish to impart on your boys I'd say it's highly important to foster that agreement, take it as an opportunity to keep things going well and assert to your husband that he should weigh priorities and perhaps "choose his battles."


TBH, I don't *know* what my ex is, if anything, saying to the boys about chivalry.  If I had to guess, I'd say that he is either saying nothing about it or actively teaching the boys not to pracitice it, but I truly don't know...I've made it a policy not to butt into anything he's doing with the boys unless I think they may be actually being damaged as a result (I can count the number of times this has occurred in the past five years on one hand--very seldom).

While my current husband does not find my ex-husband overall to be a very impressive individual, I don't think he wants to try to move in on my ex-husband's authority.  I do think my current husband's motives are most likely related to positive feelings about my boys, not negative ones about my ex-husband.
quot;Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

"Something which we think is impossible now is not impossible in another decade."
-- Constance Baker Motley

"Don't compromise yourself. You are all you've got."
--Janis Joplin

bluegrass

In the 21st century West, there is no explanation of chivalry OTHER than as an abstract philosophical concept.  It's a vestigial organ left over from the Old English Commonlaw and after the rise of the middle class when the all tried to emulate the arisocrats.  It's crap and it's deeper than we realize.

Earlier this summer we took a vacation on Cape Cod and met up with some friends at the beach for a few days.  With them were a couple of other families with young kids like ours and I witnessed how awful chivalry is and how in the end it's ultimately a way in which we reinforce the disregard for boys' and mens' emotions.

In one of the families there was a boy of about 4 and a girl of about 6.  The boy was playing with a cherished plastic dinosaur when his sister ran up, shoved him, wrestled the toy out of his hands and ran off.  He immediately screamed at her as she took off laughing.  When he caught up to her, he grabed her by the arm and began an attempt to wrestle the dinosaur back.

Immediately their mother who did nothing when the girl snatched the toy screamed, "Don't you ever put your hands on her!!!"

Then sympathetically, "Honey, let him have his dinosaur back..."

The whole thing took just a few seconds and was hardly noticed by the other parents, but look at the lesson there:  the girl was older, bigger and more dominant than her brother yet there's no recognition of the fact that if she hadn't "put her hands on" him first, he wouldn't have "put his hands on her."

Chivalry denies any need to place the same kind of significance on the emotional needs of boys as it does on girls.  Sure it was one incident on one day, but imagine what it's like to have that message drivien into a four year old's head day in and day out -- while big sister constantly tests the boundaries her mother will allow.
"To such females, womanhood is more sacrosanct by a thousand times than the Virgin Mary to popes--and motherhood, that degree raised to astronomic power. They have eaten the legend about themselves and believe it; they live it; they require fealty of us all." -- Philip Wylie, Generation of Vipers

lkanneg

Quote from: "Sir Jessy of Anti"
Just make sure they understand that they do not have to take abuse from a girl simply because they are being trained to treat them better.  If a girl hits them, they should know they have every right to defend themselves.


They do--I've emphasized that to them on several occasions in the past.  My general point being, they are not allowed to *start* physical fights, but they *are* allowed to finish them, and the gender of the attacker is utterly irrelevant (the only consideration I've told them they ought to make is the *age* of the attacker--if it's a three-year-old, for instance, no, you don't get to pound it into the ground--just pin it down til help arrives).
quot;Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

"Something which we think is impossible now is not impossible in another decade."
-- Constance Baker Motley

"Don't compromise yourself. You are all you've got."
--Janis Joplin

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