Question for lkanneg

Started by contrarymary, Sep 11, 2005, 04:03 PM

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The Gonzman

Quote from: "Dr Evil"
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It almost seems...like men really can't *bear* the thought that a woman can meet the same physical and mental standards for a job.


Oh please.  What rubbish.  Lumping all men into a negative characterization is against the rules here.  Now you are starting to act like a typical feminist in  thinking that you know what men are thinking.  Here's a clue for you, you don't.  You make assumptions based on your ideology and since the ideology is based on hate the assumptions are so far off they are laughable.  

I am very much in favor of performance standards and then letting the chips fall where they may.  Whoever passes is in, whoever doesn't is not.  No gender crap.

Your worry over the armed forces discrimination is really quite amusing since if there is any discrimination at all it is a result of women being treated as a protected class and given special preferences.


As is amply demonstrated by Fred.

And I ain't through yet.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the Shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am the MEANEST son-of-a-bitch in the valley.

Galt

I think feminists probably KNOW this, but they are still going to claim no knowledge of it or deny it and continue trying to pound the square peg of feminist ideology into the round hole of reality.

The major pity is not that feminists lie and deceive and manipulate, we're pretty much used to that, it's that many men don't have enough balls to finally stand up to them.  And maybe I understand that a little - you can lose your job and livelihood and many other things if you stand up to them in society today.  Let's all play pretend and ignore reality.  In fact, you better if you know what's good for you.

The Gonzman

http://fredoneverything.net/MilMed.shtml
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Women In Combat

Facts From A Closet

FRED REED

Occasionally I have written that placing women in physically demanding jobs in the military, as for example combat, is stupid and unworkable. Predictably I've gotten responses asserting that I hate women, abuse children, cannibalize orphans, and can't get a date. A few, with truculence sometimes amplified by misspelling, have demanded supporting data.

OK. The following are from documents I found in a closet, left over from my days as a syndicated military columnist ("Soldiering," Universal Press Syndicate). Note the dates: All of this has been known for a long time.

From the report of the Presidential Commission on the Assignment of Women in the Armed Forces (report date November 15, 1992, published in book form by Brassey's in 1993): "The average female Army recruit is 4.8 inches shorter, 31.7 pounds lighter, has 37.4 fewer pounds of muscle, and 5.7 more pounds of fat than the average male recruit. She has only 55 percent of the upper-body strength and 72 percent of the lower-body strength... An Army study of 124 men and 186 women done in 1988 found that women are more than twice as likely to suffer leg injuries and nearly five times as likely to suffer [stress] fractures as men."

Further: "The Commission heard an abundance of expert testimony about the physical differences between men and women that can be summarized as follows:

"Women's aerobic capacity is significantly lower, meaning they cannot carry as much as far as fast as men, and they are more susceptible to fatigue.

"In terms of physical capability, the upper five percent of women are at the level of the male median. The average 20-to-30 year-old woman has the same aerobic capacity as a 50 year-old man."

From the same report: "Lt Col. William Gregor, United States Army, testified before the Commission regarding a survey he conducted at an Army ROTC Advanced Summer Camp on 623 women and 3540 men. ...Evidence Gregor presented to the Commission includes:

"(a) Using the standard Army Physical Fitness Test, he found that the upper quintile of women at West point achieved scores on the test equivalent to the bottom quintile of men.

"(c) Only 21 women out of the initial 623 (3.4%) achieved a score equal to the male mean score of 260.

"(d) On the push-up test, only seven percent of women can meet a score of 60, while 78 percent of men exceed it.

"(e) Adopting a male standard of fitness at West Point would mean 70 percent of the women he studied would be separated as failures at the end of their junior year, only three percent would be eligible for the Recondo badge, and not one would receive the Army Physical Fitness badge...."

The following, quoted by Brian Mitchell in his book Women in the Military: Flirting With Disaster (Regnery, 1998) and widely known to students of the military, are results of a test the Navy did to see how well women could perform in damage control -- i.e., tasks necessary to save a ship that had been hit.

Test             Women Failing                                        % Men Failing
             Before Training/After Training   Before Training/After Training   
Stretcher carry, level                    63/38    0/0  
Stretcher carry/up, down ladder    94/88  0/0  
Fire hose                                    19/6   0/0  
P250 pump, carry down                99/99   9/4
P250 pump, carry up                     73/52   0/0  
P250, start pump                         90/75  0/0  
Remove SSTO pump                  99/99  0/0  
Torque engine bolt                    78/47  0/0  

Our ships can be hit. I know what supersonic stealthed cruise missiles are. So do the Iraqis.

Also from the Commission's report: "Non-deployability briefings before the Commission showed that women were three times more non-deployable than men, primarily due to pregnancy, during Operations Desert Shield and Storm. According to Navy Captain Martha Whitehead's testimony before the Commission, 'the primary reason for the women being unable to deploy was pregnancy, that representing 47 percent of the women who could not deploy.'"

Maybe we need armored strollers.

My friend Catherine Aspy graduated from Harvard in 1992 and (no, I'm not on drugs) enlisted in the Army in 1995. Her account was published in Reader's Digest, February, 1999, and is online in the Digest's archives.

She told me the following about her experiences: "I was stunned. The Army was a vast day-care center, full of unmarried teen-age mothers using it as a welfare home. I took training seriously and really tried to keep up with the men. I found I couldn't. It wasn't even close. I had no idea the difference in physical ability was so huge. There were always crowds of women sitting out exercises or on crutches from training injuries.

"They [the Army] were so scared of sexual harassment that women weren't allowed to go anywhere without another woman along. They called them 'Battle Buddies.' It was crazy. I was twenty-six years old but I couldn't go to the bathroom by myself."

Women are going to take on the North Korean infantry, but need protection in the ladies' room. Military policy is endlessly fascinating.

When I was writing the military column, I looked into the experience of Canada, which tried the experiment of feminization. I got the report from Ottawa, as did the Commission. Said the Commission:

"After extensive research, Canada has found little evidence to support the integration of women into ground units. Of 103 Canadian women who volunteered to joint infantry units, only one graduated the initial training course. The Canadian experience corroborates the testimony of LTC Gregor, who said the odds of selecting a woman matching the physical size and strength of the average male are more than 130-to-1.

From Military Medicine, October 1997, which I got from the Pentagon's library:

(p. 690): "One-third of 450 female soldiers surveyed indicated that they experienced problematic urinary incontinence during exercise and field training activities. The other crucial finding of the survey was probably that 13.3% of the respondents restricted fluids significantly while participating in field exercises." Because peeing was embarrassing.

Or, (p. 661): " Kessler et al found that the lifetime prevalence of PTSD in the United States was twice as high among women..." Depression, says MilMed, is far commoner among women, as are training injuries. Et cetera.

The military is perfectly aware of all of this. Their own magazine has told them. They see it every day. But protecting careers, and rears, is more important than protecting the country.

Anyway, for those who wanted supporting evidence, there it is.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the Shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am the MEANEST son-of-a-bitch in the valley.

The Gonzman

Quote from: "Galt"
I think feminists probably KNOW this, but they are still going to claim no knowledge of it or deny it and continue trying to pound the square peg of feminist ideology into the round hole of reality.

The major pity is not that feminists lie and deceive and manipulate, we're pretty much used to that, it's that many men don't have enough balls to finally stand up to them.  And maybe I understand that a little - you can lose your job and livelihood and many other things if you stand up to them in society today.  Let's all play pretend and ignore reality.  In fact, you better if you know what's good for you.


Well, as you can see, Galt, it is well known - and merely ignored because it doesn't fit doctrinaire feminist dogma.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the Shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am the MEANEST son-of-a-bitch in the valley.

contrarymary

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2. I am deeply appreciative of all the things feminists of past generations have done to make it possible for me to have the life I have and I feel as if I am identifying with them by also calling myself a feminist.


A post script about appreciation:

I appreciate the Domino's pizza driver when he comes at 1 am and I'm hungry and had too much wine to drive, but I'm not going to become a pizza delivery woman anytime soon - and my gratitude does not negate the fact that it's costly, lousy pizza.

A facile analogy?  Perhaps.  Perhaps not.
quot;I can resist anything but temptation."

 Oscar Wilde

contrarymary

Regarding women in combat - ya know, where did we all get this idea that just because WE want something, means we are entitled to it and that we should get it?
quot;I can resist anything but temptation."

 Oscar Wilde

The Gonzman

Yeah - I love riding horses, but at 7' and about 300#, the horses that can hold me aren't racers - but do you see me bitching about how "unfair" it is that I'm not allowed to be a jockey or steeplechase rider because of an accident of my birth?

If I did that, I'd be laughed at and called a whiner.  Well, go thou and do likewise...
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the Shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am the MEANEST son-of-a-bitch in the valley.

contrarymary

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7'
?????????????????????????????????

:shock:

Now, I could fit on a race horse - I'm jockey size.  And I have no interest.   None whatsoever.

I have no interest in throwing grenades either -which is good, because I couldn't do it.  You, on the other hand, could ride a race horse, but are too tall.

Such is life.  You seem to be making the best of it.  And therein lies the key.
quot;I can resist anything but temptation."

 Oscar Wilde

The Gonzman

Quote from: "contrarymary"
Quote
7'
?????????????????????????????????

:shock:

Now, I could fit on a race horse - I'm jockey size.  And I have no interest.   None whatsoever.

I have no interest in throwing grenades either -which is good, because I couldn't do it.  You, on the other hand, could ride a race horse, but are too tall.

Such is life.  You seem to be making the best of it.  And therein lies the key.


Often the difference between successful and unsuccessful people.  In order to be a success, I focused on all I could do, instead of what I couldn't do.  And instead of handing that success to me, via policies of affirmative action, I have earned it, and have no need to defend racist or sexist policies which promote the undeserving at the expense of the deserving - because I have no insecurity about my success.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the Shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am the MEANEST son-of-a-bitch in the valley.

Cudaguy

Quote from: "lkanneg"
Quote from: "Dr Evil"

Here's a clue, women and men are different and some things men do better than women and some things women do better than men.  My guess is that the hiring you are complaining about is based on performance qualifications not on gender.  Similar to the fire department problem that you seem to agree with.  Go figure.


Nope.  Women are forbidden to do those jobs solely based upon their gender.

;) Though I spect you've hit upon a major point, though probably not the one you intended.  It almost seems...like men really can't *bear* the thought that a woman can meet the same physical and mental standards for a job.  After all, if she really *couldn't,* then there wouldn't be a need to bar her based soley upon her gender, would there?  No woman would be able to pass the entrance testing for the job.  Does anybody *really* think that women are excluded from those jobs because there is *no* woman that can meet the same physical and mental standards as the men..?  And are men ever going to be brave enough to let themselves find out, either by raising the standards in the cases they've been lowered for women or by opening the jobs and keeping the same standards?


What a load of crap. But, then again, I'm just some oppressor guy. :roll:
img]http://home.ripway.com/2005-2/256769/freekzippyffcatsig.jpg[/img]

contrarymary

When I was a young girl, I used to read the paper.  Jobs were classified into:

HELP WANTED - MALE
HELP WANTED - FEMALE

When I was a teen, I decided I wanted to be what we called a "disc jockey".  And, trust me, I had the skills.  But I was female and, at the time, women in radio were few and far between.  But I decided I would go for it anyway.

I went to the broadcasting school, and the director of admissions was shocked.   He had only glanced at my last name when he looked over his appointments for the day, and did not expect to see a 17 year old girl show up.   But after he listened to me, he was very impressed and why?  Because he knew I could do the job.  And I was accepted into the school - and he was actually excited about the possibilities.

(I didn't go, btw.  My own inability to say no to anyone bit me in the ass when I ended up pregnant - no one's fault but my own.)

Men are inherently fair creatures - more so, IMHO, than many women.  Most will give someone a chance as long as she or he doesn't expect special privileges or exceptions.  Did those who were dead set against women in formerly men-only jobs need a gentle push to become more open-minded?  Yes.

Was the man-hating agenda necessary, then, to break barriers?  No, and it's gone so far now that many men are really beginning to hate us.  

And the fault doesn't lie with them, it lies with US.  Too many women are self-entitled, self-absorbed lazy bitches who want everything handed to them on a silver Vera Wang platter (which, of course, someone ELSE paid for).  Don't get me wrong - many are not BUT my perception is that the number of selfish women who will lie and manipulate when they don't get their way is growing.....and why?  Because they get away with their lies and demands with impunity - thanks to the feminists who scream "foul" everytime they feel a woman's "rights" have been violated.
quot;I can resist anything but temptation."

 Oscar Wilde

contrarymary

PS

Be scared of anything larger and stronger than you that hates you.  Be very scared.
quot;I can resist anything but temptation."

 Oscar Wilde

The Gonzman

Quote from: "contrarymary"
PS

Be scared of anything larger and stronger than you that hates you.  Be very scared.


I wouldn't worry about actively getting beat up - just profound indifference.

Probably worse, but...
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the Shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am the MEANEST son-of-a-bitch in the valley.

lkanneg

Quote from: "contrarymary"
Quote
It almost seems...like men really can't *bear* the thought that a woman can meet the same physical and mental standards for a job.


Some men, perhaps. But not the majority.


I hope that's true.
quot;Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

"Something which we think is impossible now is not impossible in another decade."
-- Constance Baker Motley

"Don't compromise yourself. You are all you've got."
--Janis Joplin

Double Jeopardy

Quote from: "lkanneg"
Quote from: "contrarymary"
Quote
It almost seems...like men really can't *bear* the thought that a woman can meet the same physical and mental standards for a job.


Some men, perhaps. But not the majority.


I hope that's true.


I suspect that is the most dishonest statement you have ever made here thus far, lkanneg. Men can bear the thought, but can the women who feel like you bear the thought of rejection when they cannot meet the required physical expectation? From my lifes experience and from watching the world around me, all I see is what your statement said.....excuses, reversals and diversions just to get what they want anyhow. All at the expense of someone who actually counts on them to deliver, not pose in lieu of their unearned title.

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