Question for lkanneg

Started by contrarymary, Sep 11, 2005, 04:03 PM

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bluegrass

Quote from: "Double Jeopardy"
Quote from: "lkanneg"
Quote from: "contrarymary"
Quote
It almost seems...like men really can't *bear* the thought that a woman can meet the same physical and mental standards for a job.


Some men, perhaps. But not the majority.


I hope that's true.


I suspect that is the most dishonest statement you have ever made here thus far, lkanneg. Men can bear the thought, but can the women who feel like you bear the thought of rejection when they cannot meet the required physical expectation? From my lifes experience and from watching the world around me, all I see is what your statement said.....excuses, reversals and diversions just to get what they want anyhow. All at the expense of someone who actually counts on them to deliver, not pose in lieu of their unearned title.


Yeah well that's pretty classic -- isn't it?

Rather than address the argument, why not just characterize the emotional or psychological state of the arguer; even though commons sense tells us one could probably never know what that is?

Word like backlash or misogynist are the typical tools one uses.  It then becomes a completely different argument:

"I don't think women should be in combat roles."

"That's because you're afraid of strong women."

"I'm not afraid of strong women."

"Yes you are."

Now you're not even talking about women in combat roles any more.
"To such females, womanhood is more sacrosanct by a thousand times than the Virgin Mary to popes--and motherhood, that degree raised to astronomic power. They have eaten the legend about themselves and believe it; they live it; they require fealty of us all." -- Philip Wylie, Generation of Vipers

Galt

I can't speak for other men, but what irritates me personally is the thump ... thump ... thump of "acknowledge me, please acknowledge me".

As an example, Ikanneg came on here and within moments we knew that she was in the military, she claimed to pass all of the standards that men had to meet, and she is a graduate in chemical engineering.  

That's more than people really know about me since I've been on these boards.

And the joke is: Plenty of men were in the military and then got a degree in some type of engineering.  So what.

And slowly, slowly, I have to apply this egocentric explosion on the part of Ikanneg to the category of: So what.  Tons of men were in the military, passed the men's standards (LOL) and got a degree in engineering.  I don't know what even prompts this big expectation on the part of women to acknowledge any jack-shit thing they've done in their life.

Double Jeopardy

Precisely, I have been reading those tactical ploys from femnists on forums for many years, BlueGrass. Classic about fits it to a T. :roll:

lkanneg

Quote from: "contrarymary"
lkanneg,  

Just another question.  Again, it's honest.  I have no ulteriior motive.  I don't dislike feminists at all - I don't hate anyone, really, not even T's evil ex and not even George W. Bush -


;) I don't like Dubya either.

Quote from: "contrarymary"
Do you really believe men and women are equal?

You stated as much (and I missed it - even though it was your first point.  Hence this edit.  Now do you see why I think I'm a dumbass?)

I do not. No way, no how, not in any stretch of the imagination.


I think we're defining "equal" differently.  "Equal" is one of those words that have many meanings...there's the mathematical "equal," which is the sense I think you're using it in here, and of course, using that definition, men and women are not equal.  Any two men, in that sense, that you pluck off the street, are not equal.  The "equal" I am using is the "equal" used in the sense of the Declaration of Independence..."we hold these truths to be self-evident...that all men are created equal."  Was the author saying that all men are identically smart, strong, brave, hardworking, attractive...?  No, of course not.  Was he saying that all men *should be treated equally by their society?*  Yes.  And that is the sense in which I believe men and women are equal.

Quote from: "contrarymary"
And that's a good thing.  We have different strengths and, ideally, these strengths should be used to complement one another, not to compete with one another and certainly never to tear one another apart.


The problem with this statement is that it assumes that there are a set of "women's strengths" and a set of "men's strengths" and that these strengths do not frequently cross the gender lines.  I, for instance, have a great deal of what I believe is frequently regarded as "men's" strengths.  I am of a mathematical and scientific frame of mind.  I have a high mechanical aptitude.  I am goal-oriented rather than process-oriented.  I am ambitious.  I am tall.  I am strong and fast.  I am physically courageous and quick-thinking in a crisis.  So...where does this leave me, if the world is to be ordered that women should be the only ones doing the things that embody "women's strengths" and men should be the only ones doing the things that embody "men's strengths?"  Where does this leave others?  In a world where women can't be soldiers and engineers and men can't be primary caregivers and teachers of small children..?  ooh, that *does* sound a bit like the world a lot of people think should exist, doesn't it...

Quote from: "contrarymary"
Now, it would seem, some men are feeling that they are not valued.  And why is this?  I'll ask the men here to answer that one.


I hope they do--I'd like to see the answers to that question too.

Quote from: "contrarymary"
I feel too much effort has gone into permitting and enabling women feel good (read: entitled) for nothing other than being female.


(sigh) I think I know what you're referring to, and I don't care much for it either.

Quote from: "contrarymary"
My own modest contribution (and forgive me for being self-aggrandizing) is noticing everyone's feelings - and acting where I see a need.   I'm not your equal, lkanneg.  I couldn't hope to be. I'm not, say, Galt's equal either.  But I'll bet, as far as being thoughtful, generous, considerate and kind, some here may not be MY equal.    No, thoughtfulness is not the same as being able to rescue a 220 lb. man from a fire.  Is it worthless, though?


Aggh, of *course* you're my equal!!  We're not the SAME, no, but jeez, equal, absolutely...everybody on this board is my equal and I theirs (imo)...yes, I agree that people tend to take raw data...such as what such-and-so is good at or bad at...and then make value judgements about it.  Death to value judgements based upon intrinsic abilities and capabilities.  :P
quot;Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

"Something which we think is impossible now is not impossible in another decade."
-- Constance Baker Motley

"Don't compromise yourself. You are all you've got."
--Janis Joplin

Galt

[Edited]

Double Jeopardy

Holy moly, Galt! pour it on, brother!!! :shock:  :D  :D

lkanneg reminds me of another woman who I had the distinct experience to read on multiple forums under a zillion different names she used. She could do it all, she knew it all, she knew people, more people than anyone in the world knew....and those people knew it all too, more than you! That's because all those people were her. BWAAAhhahahahahaa!!

....sorta reminds me of a Dr. Seuss rhyme....lol!!

lkanneg

Quote from: "TestSubject"
Quote from: "lkanneg"
It almost seems...like men really can't *bear* the thought that a woman can meet the same physical and mental standards for a job.


Absolutely!  Because...

Quote
2. I am deeply appreciative of all the things feminists of past generations have done to make it possible for me to have the life I have and I feel as if I am identifying with them by also calling myself a feminist.

4. The large strides forward in equality that women have achieved, are very new in the history of humankind. Only a fool would take them for granted and assume they're unassailable. "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." -Thomas Jefferson.


...we are certain that when she does we'll never hear the end of it.


:snort:   :lol:   That is actually pretty funny.
quot;Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

"Something which we think is impossible now is not impossible in another decade."
-- Constance Baker Motley

"Don't compromise yourself. You are all you've got."
--Janis Joplin

lkanneg

Quote from: "Dr Evil"
Quote
It almost seems...like men really can't *bear* the thought that a woman can meet the same physical and mental standards for a job.


Oh please.  What rubbish.  Lumping all men into a negative characterization is against the rules here.  


:(   Oh dear.  I didn't mean to break a board rule.  Should I have said, "Some men..." ?  Would that have been okay?

Quote from: "Dr Evil"
I am very much in favor of performance standards and then letting the chips fall where they may.  Whoever passes is in, whoever doesn't is not.  No gender crap.


Me too.  Dead on target.  Wish everyone else thought so.  ;)
quot;Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

"Something which we think is impossible now is not impossible in another decade."
-- Constance Baker Motley

"Don't compromise yourself. You are all you've got."
--Janis Joplin

Factory

One aspect of this issue that seems to be missing from the dialog:

The political ramifications and the "optics" involved with women in combat situations.

The political elite and military commanders are not living in a vacuum here folks.  They know, like everyone else here, that images of dead and dismembered women from the "battlefield" will instantly kill a large measure of support from the American public, regardless of the merits of the actual campaign.  

Hell, right now you guys have to deal with "anguished mothers" on the anti-war front.  Given the almost universal anti-war sentiments of most feminist organizations (men the oppressor, imperialist swine are unable to control thier testosterone induced rage - ergo, we have war), I think the hesitation to cave in on this issue is pretty well based on reality.

Add to that the inherent physical differences between the sexes, and resultant ability to carry out combat duties; the chivalric desire to "rescue women" aka Jessica Whatshername (nothing like making a hero out of nothing); and as evidenced by certain recent events, the political pressure to advance in rank due to "affirmative" action rather than ability...Gee, I wonder why the Pentagon isn't all over this GLARING INEQUITY...

I think it speaks more to the issue to be honest, that lkanneg can't (or at least didn't) come up with a non-military example.

lkanneg

Quote from: "neoteny"
Quote from: "lkanneg"
I believe in the social, economic and political equality of the sexes, which is the definition of feminism.


So you believe in the definition of feminism... but what does it mean?


It means that there should be no restrictions or penalties imposed upon what people may or may not do, be, own or otherwise interact in any way with solely based upon their gender.
quot;Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

"Something which we think is impossible now is not impossible in another decade."
-- Constance Baker Motley

"Don't compromise yourself. You are all you've got."
--Janis Joplin

lkanneg

Quote from: "contrarymary"
Quote
2. I am deeply appreciative of all the things feminists of past generations have done to make it possible for me to have the life I have and I feel as if I am identifying with them by also calling myself a feminist.


A post script about appreciation:

I appreciate the Domino's pizza driver when he comes at 1 am and I'm hungry and had too much wine to drive, but I'm not going to become a pizza delivery woman anytime soon - and my gratitude does not negate the fact that it's costly, lousy pizza.

A facile analogy?  Perhaps.  Perhaps not.


;) Domino's pizza sucks.  But it doesn't impact the entire course of my existence.  Gender-biased laws and social mores do.
quot;Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

"Something which we think is impossible now is not impossible in another decade."
-- Constance Baker Motley

"Don't compromise yourself. You are all you've got."
--Janis Joplin

The Gonzman

Quote from: "lkanneg"
Quote from: "Dr Evil"
Quote
It almost seems...like men really can't *bear* the thought that a woman can meet the same physical and mental standards for a job.


Oh please.  What rubbish.  Lumping all men into a negative characterization is against the rules here.  


:(   Oh dear.  I didn't mean to break a board rule.  Should I have said, "Some men..." ?  Would that have been okay?


Well, Doc, you've been condescended to with plausible deniability.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the Shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am the MEANEST son-of-a-bitch in the valley.

lkanneg

Quote from: "contrarymary"
Regarding women in combat - ya know, where did we all get this idea that just because WE want something, means we are entitled to it and that we should get it?


I am a big-time proponent of the idea that if WE want something AND WE are capable of doing it to the specified standard, then our gender alone is a stupid reason to say we aren't allowed to do it.
quot;Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

"Something which we think is impossible now is not impossible in another decade."
-- Constance Baker Motley

"Don't compromise yourself. You are all you've got."
--Janis Joplin

The Gonzman

Quote from: "lkanneg"
Quote from: "neoteny"
Quote from: "lkanneg"
I believe in the social, economic and political equality of the sexes, which is the definition of feminism.


So you believe in the definition of feminism... but what does it mean?


It means that there should be no restrictions or penalties imposed upon what people may or may not do, be, own or otherwise interact in any way with solely based upon their gender.


Unless of course women can't meet the grade for high paying jobs in the proportions feminazis would like.  Then handouts like affirmative action are *sigh* regrettably necessary and *sigh* different, and *sigh* something that has no better solution.

Oh, almost forgot ...

";)"
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the Shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am the MEANEST son-of-a-bitch in the valley.

lkanneg

Quote from: "Cudaguy"
Quote from: "lkanneg"
Quote from: "Dr Evil"

Here's a clue, women and men are different and some things men do better than women and some things women do better than men.  My guess is that the hiring you are complaining about is based on performance qualifications not on gender.  Similar to the fire department problem that you seem to agree with.  Go figure.


Nope.  Women are forbidden to do those jobs solely based upon their gender.

;) Though I spect you've hit upon a major point, though probably not the one you intended.  It almost seems...like men really can't *bear* the thought that a woman can meet the same physical and mental standards for a job.  After all, if she really *couldn't,* then there wouldn't be a need to bar her based soley upon her gender, would there?  No woman would be able to pass the entrance testing for the job.  Does anybody *really* think that women are excluded from those jobs because there is *no* woman that can meet the same physical and mental standards as the men..?  And are men ever going to be brave enough to let themselves find out, either by raising the standards in the cases they've been lowered for women or by opening the jobs and keeping the same standards?


What a load of crap. But, then again, I'm just some oppressor guy. :roll:


Be true to yourself.  ;)
quot;Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

"Something which we think is impossible now is not impossible in another decade."
-- Constance Baker Motley

"Don't compromise yourself. You are all you've got."
--Janis Joplin

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